phoenix2563

Trell Religion *SPOILERS*

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oooh, I think maybe Ruin managed to make some slight changes to Sazed's coppermind as a final sort of 'screw you'.

I doubt Rust is another Shard. It doesn't fit with the naming scheme we've seen on previous shards, and since rust is a destroyer of metal, it makes a reasonable curse on its own. I'm really looking forward to seeing where this goes though.

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oooh, I think maybe Ruin managed to make some slight changes to Sazed's coppermind as a final sort of 'screw you'.

Haha, that would certainly be interesting. I just assumed the Rust part of "Rust and Ruin!" was because of its effects on metal; however, I'm not at all surprised that it could be much more. Honestly, with Brandon, I should've known ; )

I don't believe it's another Shard, but it is interesting that there is a link between "Rust" and the Trell religion. I don't remember much about the religion, other than the stars are supposed to be the eyes of Trell.

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Here is the full information on the Trelagism, taken from The Final Empire and The Hero of Ages. I am not sure what the takeaway would be.

“I think I have the perfect religion for you,” Sazed said, his normally stoic face revealing a glimmer of eagerness. “It is called ‘Trelagism,’ after the god Trell. Trell was worshipped by a group known as the Nelazan, a people who lived far to the north. In their land, the day and night cycle was very odd. During some months of the year, it was dark for most

of the day. During the summer, however, it only grew dark for a few hours at a time.

“The Nelazan believed that there was beauty in darkness, and that the daylight was more profane. They saw the stars as the Thousand Eyes of Trell watching them. The sun was the single, jealous eye of Trell’s brother, Nalt. Since Nalt only had one eye, he made it blaze brightly to outshine his brother. The Nelazan, however, were not impressed, and preferred to worship the quiet Trell, who watched over them even when Nalt obscured the sky.”

Sazed fell silent. Vin wasn’t sure how to respond, so she didn’t say anything.

“It really is a good religion, Mistress Vin,” Sazed said. “Very gentle, yet very powerful. The Nelazan were not an advanced people, but they were quite determined. They mapped the entire night sky, counting and placing every major

star. Their ways suit you—especially their preference of the night. I can tell you more, if you wish.”

He sat down at the table, opening his portfolio, taking out the next sheet in the line. It listed the tenets of the Nelazan people, who had worshipped the god Trell.

Sazed had always been partial to this religion because of its focus on learning and study of mathematics and the heavens. He'd saved it for near the end, but had done so more out of worry than anything else. He'd wanted to put off what he'd known would happen.

Sure enough, as he read about the religion, he saw the holes in its doctrines. True, the Nelazan had known a great deal about astronomy, but their teachings on the afterlife were sketchy—almost whimsical. Their doctrine was purposefully vague, they'd taught, allowing all men to discover truth for themselves. Reading this, however, left Sazed frustrated. What good was a religion without answers? Why believe in something if the response to half of his questions was "Ask Trell, and he will answer"?

There had been a people known as the Nelazan. They had worshipped the stars, had called them the Thousand Eyes of their god, Trell, watching them. Sazed remembered well offering the religion to the young Vin while she had sat, captive, undergoing her first haircut with the crew. From the Nelazan, the Keepers had recovered star charts, and had dutifully recorded them—even though scholars had called them useless, since they hadn't been accurate since the days before the Ascension. Yet, from these star charts, and from the patterns and movements of the other planets in the solar system they outlined, Sazed could determine exactly where the world was supposed to sit in orbit. He put the planet back into its old place—not pushing too hard, as the Lord Ruler once had, for he had a frame of reference by which to measure.

Edited by Argent
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Huh. I just noticed something odd. Did we saw the name Nalt anywhere else? In another of Sanderson's books? It just seemed very familiar now... :huh:

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Huh. I just noticed something odd. Did we saw the name Nalt anywhere else? In another of Sanderson's books? It just seemed very familiar now... :huh:

It's particularly familiar, because the maps are signed Nazh. That's what I thought it was from.

Also it seems to be an initialisation for 'Not all like that', referring to the 'moderate Christians' movement...

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It's particularly familiar, because the maps are signed Nazh. That's what I thought it was from.

Also it seems to be an initialisation for 'Not all like that', referring to the 'moderate Christians' movement...

Nalthis? (World Warbreaker is set on)

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Nalthis? (World Warbreaker is set on)

Ah, that! Thank you! :lol:

But... Can this have any relation? Seem a little too far-fetched, but with Brandon Sanderson you never know...

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Ah, that! Thank you! :lol:

But... Can this have any relation? Seem a little too far-fetched, but with Brandon Sanderson you never know...

Could be possible. Just haven't quite worked out in my mind how!

Just thought of one other thing. The character in Warbreaker named TRELedees. Obvious difference in the spelling but thought i'd throw that one in there :P

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Miles' Trelagism doesn't seem to resemble Sazed's description. Sazed mentioned nothing about special people being chosen to rule.

Uncle Ladrian said Miles's philosophy came from him. Miles didn't seem to acknowledge this.

It seems to me that the Set is using mystical and religious means to manipulate people.

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Yeah, if it's a related religion, there's been something hokey going on. I was especially confused by Miles' last words, which said something about the people of gold and red. I'm guessing there is some truth buried in all this stuff, and that it will come to a head in one of the later sequels. As to what that truth is, we have very few hints indeed.

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An interesting point popped up in the Bloody Tan thread that's worth looking at here.

If Miles actually did get his beliefs from Uncle Suit, is there any reason that the Set at one point couldn't have modified the religion for their own ends?

From the end of HoA, it seems as if the religion is still roughly the same as before, which would have made it almost impossible for Ruin to be behind those changes (since he was dead and all). The Set on the other hand, seems to be more than willing to do whatever it takes to meet their goals (robbery, kidnapping, and murder are confirmed, and we'll assume rape if they actually are trying to breed an army of Mistings).

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So the question still remains how "Rust and Ruin" connects to Trell. There must be something deeper than just the Set, something manipulating them. Are we sure this couldn't be a shard of some sort? Maybe not rust specifically, but something else?

With Ruin dead, perhaps Odium has paid a visit to Scadrial. Or maybe it's one of the cognitive shards that aren't as present in the physical world, but make impressions on all the different worlds (not sure if I have this 100% correct or not)

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So the question still remains how "Rust and Ruin" connects to Trell. There must be something deeper than just the Set, something manipulating them. Are we sure this couldn't be a shard of some sort? Maybe not rust specifically, but something else?

With Ruin dead, perhaps Odium has paid a visit to Scadrial. Or maybe it's one of the cognitive shards that aren't as present in the physical world, but make impressions on all the different worlds (not sure if I have this 100% correct or not)

Ruin isn't dead, both the shards actual shardy bits are with Sazed now. The guy called Ati, who was in the driving seat of Ruin, has perished, but none of the juicy bits have been lost. And I'm (we're?) fairly sure Odium hasn't been to Scadrial, or if he has, he was dissuaded by Harmony (Sazed), having 'twice as much' power as he has, or for whatever other reason.

I like the idea that it's something to do with Ati's last works :D

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I like the idea you alluded to that Odium came calling and then was like "woah double shard game over man" and went home

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So the question still remains how "Rust and Ruin" connects to Trell. There must be something deeper than just the Set, something manipulating them. Are we sure this couldn't be a shard of some sort? Maybe not rust specifically, but something else?

With Ruin dead, perhaps Odium has paid a visit to Scadrial. Or maybe it's one of the cognitive shards that aren't as present in the physical world, but make impressions on all the different worlds (not sure if I have this 100% correct or not)

At the signing in London when he was promoting Way of Kings my cousin asked a question and got a RAFO card. His question was (I can't remember word for word) "Will/has Odium visited Scadrial"

hmmmm

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Heh... just to throw a spanner into the works (MWAHAHAHA!!), I'll point out that he writes "Rust & Ruin!" in a LOT of the books he signs.

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which means the phrase either has some secret importance beyond the obvious or he just really likes it.

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Odium could have visited Scadrial and manipulated some people. He's not as trigger-happy as Ruin, also he doesn't wear a t-shirt saying "I kill my fellow Shards and brak their stuff", so how could Sazed know that he's a bad guy?

Saze is pretty new, I think he was more like "Hmmm, that is something strange, I should invastigate it but not intervene too much. I hope they aren't mad at me for getting those Shards after Ati and Vin exploded, I'm not sure if it is a legal thing. Maybe he can teach me how to be a god? I'd better be cautious, anyway...".

And Odium was like "Hmmm... This guy is powerful, but knows nothing. I'd better not make him angry, but he can possibly be manipulated. I should take a look at people here. *starts a crazy cult* Yep, that should evlove nicely... *checks the time* Must go now, I have a Desolation. I'll come back here when he's weakened by results of my evil plot and kill him then.".

And Tan may be a part of this. Miles & The Set too.

"Rust and Ruin" reminds me of Ruin changing the prophecies and other texts. Or Hemalurgical decay. No idea what does it have to do with Miles, so it's probably not the right thing.

Edited by eri
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Odium could have visited Scadrial and manipulated some people. He's not as trigger-happy as Ruin, also he doesn't wear a t-shirt saying "I kill my fellow Shards and brak their stuff", so how could Sazed know that he's a bad guy?

Saze is pretty new, I think he was more like "Hmmm, that is something strange, I should invastigate it but not intervene too much. I hope they aren't mad at me for getting those Shards after Ati and Vin exploded, I'm not sure if it is a legal thing. Maybe he can teach me how to be a god? I'd better be cautious, anyway...".

And Odium was like "Hmmm... This guy is powerful, but knows nothing. I'd better not make him angry, but he can possibly be manipulated. I should take a look at people here. *starts a crazy cult* Yep, that should evlove nicely... *checks the time* Must go now, I have a Desolation. I'll come back here when he's weakened by results of my evil plot and kill him then.".

I really like this line of though, as it does seem like the way Sazed would react if he came across another shard. Also, we have been shown that shardkeepers can affect the physical realm (leraz tearing up paper, ruin changing writing), so it seems quite possible that odium could affect the trell religion, and change it to his own devices.

2 Things i wonder about though are:

1: is it possible that other poeple were alive on Scadrial outside of the final empire (the nahlezan for instance)? It would help explain the need for misting breeders, as anyone not involved with TLR's ascencion would not have access to allomancy.

2: its a long shot, but i wonder if the 'final metal' and the 'element' that a certain worldhopper has are the same thing. if so, the change in the trell religion does seem to be from an outside source

ok, not sure if this is 100% relevant to this topic, but its definately something to think about

Edited by Orome
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Apparently I'm in the mood for reaching far. Miles' last words involved "men of golf and red," he smoked "Citizen Magistrates" the packaging of which was in a gold and red box, and in HoA there was that whole mess with "The Citizen" who wore red and talked about superiority. Although the Citizen said that normal humans were above allomancers, we know he thought otherwise (his sister, "count the skulls"). Maybe in some weird way it's connected with that? But it is a bit of a stretch.

Also, just came across the part again where Miles talks about Trell. "Why had Trell make men like him, if not to see wrongs righted? The Words of Founding and its teachings, which proved men like Miles were special."

So I guess it wasn't Trelagism? Maybe a branch off of the original religion? For I'm assuming both were listed by name in The Words of Founding--at least that's how Miles makes it sound.

1: is it possible that other poeple were alive on Scadrial outside of the final empire (the nahlezan for instance)? It would help explain the need for misting breeders, as anyone not involved with TLR's ascencion would not have access to allomancy.

Yes, there was those people down by the sea that Vin killed some of when she spun the planet. In terms of the Nahlezan, they were said to be dead 1,000 years or so, but perhaps that did't include the people by the sea. My question is: did they die at the end of HoA, or did some live and we'll encounter them when the people of Elendel expand south enough?

Edited by lauren.e135
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Apparently I'm in the mood for reaching far. Miles' last words involved "men of golf and red," he smoked "Citizen Magistrates" the packaging of which was in a gold and red box, and in HoA there was that whole mess with "The Citizen" who wore red and talked about superiority. Although the Citizen said that normal humans were above allomancers, we know he thought otherwise (his sister, "count the skulls"). Maybe in some weird way it's connected with that? But it is a bit of a stretch.

Also, just came across the part again where Miles talks about Trell. "Why had Trell make men like him, if not to see wrongs righted? The Words of Founding and its teachings, which proved men like Miles were special."

So I guess it wasn't Trelagism? Maybe a branch off of the original religion? For I'm assuming both were listed by name in The Words of Founding--at least that's how Miles makes it sound.

Yes, there was those people down by the sea that Vin killed some of when she spun the planet. In terms of the Nahlezan, they were said to be dead 1,000 years or so, but perhaps that did't include the people by the sea. My question is: did they die at the end of HoA, or did some live and we'll encounter them when the people of Elendel expand south enough?

very good points here. Possibly linked to the seafarer's that are mentioned in the broadsheet excerpt? It mentioned about people across the see having unknown metals

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A thought that occurred to me while reading this topic... Maybe the things Miles speak while he is dying have something to do with the things dying people speak in Way of Kings? Could this be a symptom of Odim proximity?

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very good points here. Possibly linked to the seafarer's that are mentioned in the broadsheet excerpt? It mentioned about people across the see having unknown metals

There are a couple of instances in the Broad Sheet of "unknown metals", both in the Life Across the Ocean article and the Exploring the Pits of Eltania excerpt.

Could there be other magic systems on Scadrial that we haven't seen yet? I mean Roshar has 3 Shards and Brandon has said there is some 30 variants on the magic systems.

2 Shards on Scadrial = only 3 magics? Possibly. Just a question. Alternately if there are other metals and not just instances of Atium reappearing what could they be?

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There are a couple of instances in the Broad Sheet of "unknown metals", both in the Life Across the Ocean article and the Exploring the Pits of Eltania excerpt.

Could there be other magic systems on Scadrial that we haven't seen yet? I mean Roshar has 3 Shards and Brandon has said there is some 30 variants on the magic systems.

2 Shards on Scadrial = only 3 magics? Possibly. Just a question. Alternately if there are other metals and not just instances of Atium reappearing what could they be?

I highly doubt there are additional magic systems. Otherwise, the writer of the Ars Arcanum in Alloy would have noted additional manifestations of Investiture. Yes, it's an in-world document, but you would probably pick up on that fact.

The unknown metals disconcert me. I thought, in my initial reading of Alloy, that chromium and nicrosil haven't been discovered yet. You'd think those types of Mistings would be talked about a lot, but they weren't. And the Ars Arcanum makes it pretty clear that they have been discovered. So, I have no idea what to think about the unknown metals, except that I'm kind of scared by them.

Also, just came across the part again where Miles talks about Trell. "Why had Trell make men like him, if not to see wrongs righted? The Words of Founding and its teachings, which proved men like Miles were special."

It could be because I am quite tired at the moment, but if you stare at those two sentences in a weird way, it says that the Words of Founding and its teaching proved men like Miles were special, not necessarily that "Trell says men like Miles were special." (Also, what the crap, that second sentence is totally a fragment. Was that intentional in context, or is that a typo?)

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