How do Compounding Twinborns work? *spoilers*

[dyring]

It may not be that TLR actually had to be old.

We are all to some extent creatures of habit. Those who are mentally unstable often even more so. TLR was a feruchemist before he became an allomancer. He may simply be used to spending time old if he wishes to store age, since he did that when he trained feruchemy, before he used the WoA.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Brandon just posted a link to this interview. http://www.openthefridge.net/blog/2011/11/18/interview-author-brandon-sanderson.html

Explains it rather well i think.

Thanks for that link! That is a great answer from Brandon about Compounding...

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Remember also that TLR is MUCH stronger than Miles, Allomantically. I'd hazard a guess that TLR got ~1000x out of compounding instead of 10x, if not a higher multiplier. And he could get even more out by using Duralumin...

I've been wondering about this, actually. Can a Compounder use Duralumin?

We know (by way of the Lord Ruler's fate, as well as Wax's inner monologue) that once you've started Compounding, it is dangerous to stop. And Duralumin consumes your entire reserve of every metal you are currently burning. So, in theory, if the Lord Ruler (who is burning Atium constantly, and probably Gold and the full range of physical metals, too) burned Duralumin, all of his Atium vanishes (with extra-potent effects... would he turn into a baby?), and now he's out, and ages to death in a few moments. If this were accompanied by his cellular regeneration, senses, etc. shutting down, it would be even worse, though when you're about to die anyway, I guess that doesn't matter as much.

In theory, maybe he could have an extra Atiummind on his person (but not in his body*) somewhere, and pull it out to swallow it, or stab himself, or something in the few seconds before he dies of old age. In practice, if he'd had one of those, he would have pulled it out when Vin tore his bracers off, and he did not (though it would not have mattered if he had - anyone could push a simple ring out of his hand before it had his blood to protect it). So, that is both a very risky strategy, and one we have evidence of him not using. It might even be impossible, if Atium has the same kind of delay between uses that Bendalloy does.

I suppose that, viewed in the proper light, this question might explain what was happening in his meditation chamber - he would occasionally flare Duralumin and consume his Atiumminds, thereby de-ageing to, say, 150 years old (an age that is ancient, but which he could survive by burning a Goldmind as soon as the Duralumin flare ends), then putting on a spare set of Atiumminds he prepared in advance to get young again.

If the accumulation of age eventually outstrips the power of Compounding, and Duralumin/Double Atium reduces "permanent" age, this would make a kind of sense, though I do not honestly think is what happened. I have always assumed he became weak in that chamber as a way of remembering the man he once was, if only rarely.

Besides, if Duralumin (or, worse, Aluminum itself) is suicide for the Lord Ruler, that explains a minor itch I've had since the end of Hero Of Ages. We know that Bendalloy and Cadmium had vanished from the world while Atium was there, and returned afterwards. But that still leaves the issue of Chromium and Nicrosil, which must have existed, and must have been known to the Lord Ruler (from the time when he was the Sliver Of Infinity), but were nowhere to be found, even in the storage caverns. If I am correct, then he would not have revealed them, even in the most secret of places, because either one of them could have allowed any Mistborn to kill him with a touch. And that's the sort of thing Rashek would never risk, not even if doing so is also a potential weapon for people to use against the Inquisitors.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

* I absolutely do not think he could Duralumin out one bracer while not tapping the other, and have the other bracer stay intact. Most Allomancers use a bunch of metal flakes spread through their internal organs, and if those all go up at once, I see no reason to assume why a bracer in a different arm is immune.

[Thor]

I've been wondering about this, actually. Can a Compounder use Duralumin?

We know (by way of the Lord Ruler's fate, as well as Wax's inner monologue) that once you've started Compounding, it is dangerous to stop. And Duralumin consumes your entire reserve of every metal you are currently burning. So, in theory, if the Lord Ruler (who is burning Atium constantly, and probably Gold and the full range of physical metals, too) burned Duralumin, all of his Atium vanishes (with extra-potent effects... would he turn into a baby?), and now he's out, and ages to death in a few moments. If this were accompanied by his cellular regeneration, senses, etc. shutting down, it would be even worse, though when you're about to die anyway, I guess that doesn't matter as much.

In theory, maybe he could have an extra Atiummind on his person (but not in his body*) somewhere, and pull it out to swallow it, or stab himself, or something in the few seconds before he dies of old age. In practice, if he'd had one of those, he would have pulled it out when Vin tore his bracers off, and he did not (though it would not have mattered if he had - anyone could push a simple ring out of his hand before it had his blood to protect it). So, that is both a very risky strategy, and one we have evidence of him not using. It might even be impossible, if Atium has the same kind of delay between uses that Bendalloy does.

I suppose that, viewed in the proper light, this question might explain what was happening in his meditation chamber - he would occasionally flare Duralumin and consume his Atiumminds, thereby de-ageing to, say, 150 years old (an age that is ancient, but which he could survive by burning a Goldmind as soon as the Duralumin flare ends), then putting on a spare set of Atiumminds he prepared in advance to get young again.

If the accumulation of age eventually outstrips the power of Compounding, and Duralumin/Double Atium reduces "permanent" age, this would make a kind of sense, though I do not honestly think is what happened. I have always assumed he became weak in that chamber as a way of remembering the man he once was, if only rarely.

Besides, if Duralumin (or, worse, Aluminum itself) is suicide for the Lord Ruler, that explains a minor itch I've had since the end of Hero Of Ages. We know that Bendalloy and Cadmium had vanished from the world while Atium was there, and returned afterwards. But that still leaves the issue of Chromium and Nicrosil, which must have existed, and must have been known to the Lord Ruler (from the time when he was the Sliver Of Infinity), but were nowhere to be found, even in the storage caverns. If I am correct, then he would not have revealed them, even in the most secret of places, because either one of them could have allowed any Mistborn to kill him with a touch. And that's the sort of thing Rashek would never risk, not even if doing so is also a potential weapon for people to use against the Inquisitors.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

* I absolutely do not think he could Duralumin out one bracer while not tapping the other, and have the other bracer stay intact. Most Allomancers use a bunch of metal flakes spread through their internal organs, and if those all go up at once, I see no reason to assume why a bracer in a different arm is immune.

AFAIK, metals must be in the stomach to be burned. And I think that the way that TLR died is very convincing evidence that he wasn't burning Atium constantly: he ages very rapidly after the bracers are gone. If he was burning Atium metalminds then he shouldn't have de-aged, not for a few minutes at least. He was tapping (not burning) large amounts of Age from his metalminds and without them, he aged very rapidly to his true age.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Miles Hundredlives had gold spikes scattered through his body, and was burning them. I do not think that the stomach is needed for burning, it's just convenient if you don't like stabbing yourself with metal.

[Eric]

It's also convenient if you don't want to pass out from the pain of burning metal embedded in your body, as the Brandonothology indicates. Miles could do it because he couldn't feel pain anymore. TLR might have simply stored touch all the time, or become immune to pain in the same way, or any number of other things to prevent the KO.

[CrazyRioter]

I'm pretty sure he wasn't burning those metalminds, he was just just tapping them and storing little bits of health in gold nuggets to compound.

[Ari]

As I understood it, the point of spiking metalminds into your skin is to stop them from being removed by lurchers or pushed by coinshots, not to burn the metalminds through the spikes. So in Miles' case, the spiked metalminds would be his "buffers", in which he held the excess healing he got through compounding, as opposed to the easily removable ones that he would have shaved to burn.

[whynaut]

Brandon just posted a link to this interview. http://www.openthefridge.net/blog/2011/11/18/interview-author-brandon-sanderson.html

Explains it rather well i think.

Okay, I think I get it now. If I am reading this correctly, than what a Compounder does is burn Feruchemical charge Allomantically. It only works with double metals because the Compounder is basically tricking the system/(Investiture?) into activating the wrong power because it is so similar.

I think someone mentioned that Brandon said that a Compounder could do this the other way around. So would that mean that Compounder could store a Allomantic charge Feruchemically? What would that even mean if a Compounder stored something like steel Pushing into a metalmind?

[Aradel]

I think someone mentioned that Brandon said that a Compounder could do this the other way around. So would that mean that Compounder could store a Allomantic charge Feruchemically? What would that even mean if a Compounder stored something like steel Pushing into a metalmind?

Mind=Blown

If this is true, this opens up another 16 possible effects for Doubles.

[Lanscaper]

Here's something that I've been thinking about...does Miles necessarily have to shave his goldminds, couldn't he in theory invest the health into the gold shavings in his stomach, and then burn that, refill the goldminds on the outside of his body, and during the entire process of investing health into the gold shavings in his stomach be tapping on his external goldminds? Then it's a simple matter of acquiring generic gold shavings and consuming it like any other misting, which in AoL Brandon rarely mentions the consumption of shavings.

That would also be a potential source of explanation as to why he was healing without his external goldminds, he was using gold inside himself as a goldminds and there could have been a few flakes of gold in his stomach that he invests in and burns, but since it is only a few flakes that minor bit of health can't deal with four barrages of gunfire.

[TheBobs]

Here's something that I've been thinking about...does Miles necessarily have to shave his goldminds, couldn't he in theory invest the health into the gold shavings in his stomach, and then burn that, refill the goldminds on the outside of his body, and during the entire process of investing health into the gold shavings in his stomach be tapping on his external goldminds? Then it's a simple matter of acquiring generic gold shavings and consuming it like any other misting, which in AoL Brandon rarely mentions the consumption of shavings.

That would also be a potential source of explanation as to why he was healing without his external goldminds, he was using gold inside himself as a goldminds and there could have been a few flakes of gold in his stomach that he invests in and burns, but since it is only a few flakes that minor bit of health can't deal with four barrages of gunfire.

I'm pretty sure he does do this.

[happyman]

Here's something that I've been thinking about...does Miles necessarily have to shave his goldminds, couldn't he in theory invest the health into the gold shavings in his stomach, and then burn that, refill the goldminds on the outside of his body, and during the entire process of investing health into the gold shavings in his stomach be tapping on his external goldminds? Then it's a simple matter of acquiring generic gold shavings and consuming it like any other misting, which in AoL Brandon rarely mentions the consumption of shavings.

That would also be a potential source of explanation as to why he was healing without his external goldminds, he was using gold inside himself as a goldminds and there could have been a few flakes of gold in his stomach that he invests in and burns, but since it is only a few flakes that minor bit of health can't deal with four barrages of gunfire.

Given that we see Sazed pulling the Feruchemy side of this stunt in TFE (he says he swallowed his metalminds), this seems like a very reasonable theory.

[Lanscaper]

Okay, so Brandon also alluded to the fact that you can store a Allomantic charge in a metalmind through compounding. Then in theory could a compounder store that allomantic charge into the metal, and then burn it to 'break' the system? or since it is the same aspect does this not work? Because in theory the charge is in the metal through Ferumancy which is what allows for Miles ridiculous regeneration.

This would in theory allow a compounder to have ridiculously strong allomantic powers (TLR could very well have done this...not that he needed it) and would make sense for rare metals, where acquisition is hard. By investing a bit in ferumancy you get a tenfold yield. But if it turns out that since you are essentially putting the same charge onto the same metal that the yield is only onefold then there wouldn't really be much of a reason I guess, and unfortunately Sazed mentions that there is a limit to the amount of charge that you can put into a metalmind.

What triggered this thought was bendalloy compounders (Wayne keeps running out of the stuff) so I was trying to think of a way that he might increase his yield through compounding.

[fyodor]

I think that the idea behind using Feruchemy to enhance Allomancy is that you could store and then release a much larger amount at once. You'd still need the same amount of metal but you could store the "burn" in a metalmind and access it later at a much higher rate.

The advantage of feruchemical compounding is that you can use metal to fuel an attribute instead of that attribute. i.e. when you store healing in a gold metalmind it makes it an allomantic healing metal which you can then burn for healing.

The advantage of feruchemical allomancy enhancement is, I assume, that you can store an attribute and draw it out at a much faster rate.

I don't think that storing-burning would increase your yield because even if you stored-then-burned you'd only get the same burst that the metal could supply in the first place.

Okay, so Brandon also alluded to the fact that you can store a Allomantic charge in a metalmind through compounding. Then in theory could a compounder store that allomantic charge into the metal, and then burn it to 'break' the system? or since it is the same aspect does this not work? Because in theory the charge is in the metal through Ferumancy which is what allows for Miles ridiculous regeneration.

This would in theory allow a compounder to have ridiculously strong allomantic powers (TLR could very well have done this...not that he needed it) and would make sense for rare metals, where acquisition is hard. By investing a bit in ferumancy you get a tenfold yield. But if it turns out that since you are essentially putting the same charge onto the same metal that the yield is only onefold then there wouldn't really be much of a reason I guess, and unfortunately Sazed mentions that there is a limit to the amount of charge that you can put into a metalmind.

What triggered this thought was bendalloy compounders (Wayne keeps running out of the stuff) so I was trying to think of a way that he might increase his yield through compounding.

[whynaut]

I am still trying to understand what it means for a Compounder to store a Allomantic charge Feruchemically. For example, we saw Miles burn a Feruchemical charge Allomantically, but if he were to store his Auger ability in a gold metalmind what would that even do? Does it just mean that he could activate the Auger ability for a later date when he has no gold to burn? Or could he tap Auger faster as fyodor suggests? If he could, what would that do? Would it make the past/alternate self more real somehow, or make multiple past/alternate selves?

The Augur ability seems to be the most obviously awkward ability to store Feruchemically, but a lot of the Allomantic abilities do not make sense to me being stored. The strength from Steel and Iron always comes from weight, so even if you could tap it faster it would not seem to make much difference.

Maybe Bronze tapped more quickly could break a coppercloud, but for a much shorter time?

And how would Duralumin factor into all of this?

[Aiken Frost]

Well, there isn't a lot of advantages in being a Aluminum or Duraluminum Gnat, but they exist anyway. Feruchemically using some of the Allomantical powers may not be too advantageous either.

Of course, the simple fact that you could store some metal burning to use in a later time when you are out of metals seems a big enough benefit to me, specially if you can compress more Allomantic power in briefer moments for a bigger output. That could, theoretically, allow you to break the upper limits of Allomancy!

That alone seems absurdly powerful and totally worth it!

[fyodor]

The Augur ability seems to be the most obviously awkward ability to store Feruchemically, but a lot of the Allomantic abilities do not make sense to me being stored. The strength from Steel and Iron always comes from weight, so even if you could tap it faster it would not seem to make much difference.

Maybe Bronze tapped more quickly could break a coppercloud, but for a much shorter time?

And how would Duralumin factor into all of this?

Bronze tapped more quickly would pierce copperclouds or cover more range. Copper tapped more quickly would cover more area and/or offer more protection. Pewter tapped more quickly would give more strength/speed. Tin-stronger senses. Brass/Zinc - Stronger emotional dampening/rioting covering more people.

Iron and Steel are still somewhat dependent on user's allomantic strength - see p. 32

http://books.google.com/books?id=uTt-H5MAGT0C&lpg=PP1&dq=hero%20of%20ages&pg=PA32#v=snippet&q=really%20pushed&f=false

I am not completely convinced that the feruchemy-enchancing-allomancy involves using the same metal. I'm betting that it involves the use of Nicrosil to store the "investiture" from the burned metal.

Edited December 7, 2011 by fyodor

[ReaderAt2046]

The Augur ability seems to be the most obviously awkward ability to store Feruchemically, but a lot of the Allomantic abilities do not make sense to me being stored. The strength from Steel and Iron always comes from weight, so even if you could tap it faster it would not seem to make much difference.

I think you can change the strength at which Steel/Iron works, it's just that the force is always the same both ways (The heavier you are, the less the force effects you in proportion to how it affects everything else.

We've seen people flaring or slow-burning steel all over the place.

[Zas678]

I think someone mentioned that Brandon said that a Compounder could do this the other way around. So would that mean that Compounder could store a Allomantic charge Feruchemically? What would that even mean if a Compounder stored something like steel Pushing into a metalmind?

I don't think Brandon's said anything about this yet, and so I'm pretty sure it isn't possible for a normal* Compounder. It only goes one way from normal Feruchemy to souped up Allomancy**.

Let me go through the Compounding process. Let's say that you're gold/gold, since those are the ones I remember.

Step 1. You store Health feruchemically in some Gold. Let's say you store enough for 1 arm (let's call it 1 A.)

Step 2. You eat said Gold metalmind (or have it already injested when you store your Health)

Step 3. You burn the Gold. Your body says "Oh look! Gold. I know how to burn that Allomantically. Let me just access some power here and let it flow through to you."

Now normally, Gold's molecular structure, when burned, creates a gate that sends Auger ability to you from the power of creation.

However, you have changed this piece of gold, putting health into it. So now, instead of sending Augur ability to you, it will send Health ability to you.

Step 4: Get the Health you so love and enjoy, approximately 100 A worth.

The amount of Health you get out is proportional to the amount of health you put in. Once all the health you've stored in the Gold has been burned up, the Gold stops looking like Health and starts looking like Augur again to your body.

This is often led to Step 5: Use .3 A for keeping yourself extra-fit, Store 98.7 A in some Gold Metalminds, while storing 1 A in some Gold shavings to repeat Step 1, resulting in the cycle I like to call the Miles Cycle.

So this won't work the other way, because Compounding (as has been said) capitalizes on a factor that while Allomancy has an upper bound, it has infinite energy. While Feruchemical abbilites have no upper bound, but limited energy. It also doesn't make sense. How would you store Augur in Gold? It doesn't work that way.

*Ah, you noticed my asterick, did you? It's very possible that some Compounders (like Pewter/Pewter) would have abilites that resemble each other enough that it might work the other way.

So you would have Step 1a. Burn Pewter allomantically, granting you stronger muscles. Step 1b. Store some of those stronger muscles. This would end up with your Miles Cycle getting possibly even more energy out of the Compounding.

**Ah, you noticed my double asterick, did you? There's some theory floating around about Investiture. Nothing really concrete, but all very interesting. It's possible that with Investiture, you store your ability to use a magic ability. So you could store your ability to Allomantically burn Pewter, and you would lose that ability temporarily. However, you could then tap that ability to burn Pewter, ending up with a Pewter burn that's much stronger than you originally can burn. (Think Elend's power vs Vin's).

The biggest limitation with Investiture (that I've seen) is that Feruchemy only works for the person who stores it. So unless you pull out some crazy Hemalurgical magic tricks, you won't be able to start giving out your Augur ability to your friends. Or give your Aluminum ability to someone who's dying of metal poisoning.

[whynaut]

I don't think Brandon's said anything about this yet, and so I'm pretty sure it isn't possible for a normal* Compounder. It only goes one way from normal Feruchemy to souped up Allomancy**.

Let me go through the Compounding process. Let's say that you're gold/gold, since those are the ones I remember.

Step 1. You store Health feruchemically in some Gold. Let's say you store enough for 1 arm (let's call it 1 A.)

Step 2. You eat said Gold metalmind (or have it already injested when you store your Health)

Step 3. You burn the Gold. Your body says "Oh look! Gold. I know how to burn that Allomantically. Let me just access some power here and let it flow through to you."

Now normally, Gold's molecular structure, when burned, creates a gate that sends Auger ability to you from the power of creation.

However, you have changed this piece of gold, putting health into it. So now, instead of sending Augur ability to you, it will send Health ability to you.

Step 4: Get the Health you so love and enjoy, approximately 100 A worth.

The amount of Health you get out is proportional to the amount of health you put in. Once all the health you've stored in the Gold has been burned up, the Gold stops looking like Health and starts looking like Augur again to your body.

This is often led to Step 5: Use .3 A for keeping yourself extra-fit, Store 98.7 A in some Gold Metalminds, while storing 1 A in some Gold shavings to repeat Step 1, resulting in the cycle I like to call the Miles Cycle.

So this won't work the other way, because Compounding (as has been said) capitalizes on a factor that while Allomancy has an upper bound, it has infinite energy. While Feruchemical abbilites have no upper bound, but limited energy. It also doesn't make sense. How would you store Augur in Gold? It doesn't work that way.

*Ah, you noticed my asterick, did you? It's very possible that some Compounders (like Pewter/Pewter) would have abilites that resemble each other enough that it might work the other way.

So you would have Step 1a. Burn Pewter allomantically, granting you stronger muscles. Step 1b. Store some of those stronger muscles. This would end up with your Miles Cycle getting possibly even more energy out of the Compounding.

**Ah, you noticed my double asterick, did you? There's some theory floating around about Investiture. Nothing really concrete, but all very interesting. It's possible that with Investiture, you store your ability to use a magic ability. So you could store your ability to Allomantically burn Pewter, and you would lose that ability temporarily. However, you could then tap that ability to burn Pewter, ending up with a Pewter burn that's much stronger than you originally can burn. (Think Elend's power vs Vin's).

The biggest limitation with Investiture (that I've seen) is that Feruchemy only works for the person who stores it. So unless you pull out some crazy Hemalurgical magic tricks, you won't be able to start giving out your Augur ability to your friends. Or give your Aluminum ability to someone who's dying of metal poisoning.

What I actually heard was that someone asked Brandon if a Compounder had special allomantic powers as well as special feruchemical powers. He said RAFO.

This leads me to believe that there is something special a Compounder could do with allomancy. Since, as you essentially described, a Compounder basically burns a feruchemical charge allomantically then I assume that the same Compounder could also store an allomantic charge feuchemically.

[Vortaan]

My thought on Steel/Iron, if you can store an Allomantic charge Feruchemically: You store control. Zane, who is the only example we really see of someone with double Steel, shows not more STRENGTH than Vin, but more CONTROL over that strength. The constant thing both Kelsier and Vin comment on with Steel/Iron is that it's hard to do more than a strong Push at once. So Steel/Iron Twinborn could possibly show the same control as Zane. What this would mean for Pushing is up in the air, since no one I can think of shows double Iron.

[Eric]

This is often led to Step 5: Use .3 A for keeping yourself extra-fit, Store 98.7 A in some Gold Metalminds, while storing 1 A in some Gold shavings to repeat Step 1, resulting in the cycle I like to call the Miles Cycle.

Compounded Tin: I can see for Miles and Miles.

[TheJackOfShit]

nonononon...

much wrong

the way it works is that you allomantically burn the feruchemical power, not the metalmind

wayne says that in order to kill miles wax hadda take of his metalmindz.

 

[TheJackOfShit]

also: would you die if u stored all of your health at once or all ur energy?