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How do Compounding Twinborns work? *spoilers*


whynaut

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I do not exactly understand how Compounding works when you are a Twinborn. I used to think I understood, but now I am thoroughly confused. I used to think that Compounding stored basically Allomantic charge into a Feruchemical metalmind. For example, a pewter/pewter Twinborn would raise his strength by burning pewter but instead of getting stronger the Twinborn would simply store that extra strength into the pewter metalmind for later.

However, we see from Miles Dagouter that this is not the case. He is a gold/gold Twinborn and uses this to heal dramatically faster than an average gold Feruchemist. Unlike a pewter/pewter Twinborn, you can ferochemically store healing in gold, but allomancitally burning gold has nothing to do with healing. So how is it Miles can heal faster?

And it is not as if being a Compound Twinborn possibly changes the nature of the allomantic charge because Miles still burns gold to see past/potential versions of himself. This next part is speculation, but it does not seem to even change the nature of storing health feruchmically. I assume that Miles survived his initial execution after the first round of shooting because he swallowed a piece of gold (though I realize this may not be the case). If this is the case, however, then it means he still has to store charge and run out of that charge like any other Feruchemist.

So my questions are:

How does Miles heal more than the average Feruchemist?

Do Compunding Twinborns just always have their power on full for some reason (for example are chromium Ferrings always lucky)?

Do these Twinborns have increased power to thier Allomancy like they fo for their Feruchemey?

*Also for kicks*

How do you think Miles survived after being executed the first three times?

Edited by whynaut
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basically what happens is they store something in a small piece of metal, then swallow and burn the metal, which releases more of the feruchemical attribute then was originally stored {essentially this creates a new allomantic metal) which can then be stored in other metalminds, which could then theoretically be burned as well to get even more.

and as for the scene when Miles uses the allomantic gold power, I just assumed he swallowed a piece of gold without feruchemical charge in it..

also Brandon has said it's possible for a compounder to use their feruchemy to enhance their allomancy but we don't know how that works.

Edited by CrazyRioter
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My understanding is that it goes something like this:

1) Twinborn stores 1 'charge' of their power in a metalmind

2) They then burn that metalmind, releasing the power tenfold

3) Some of that 10x amount released is put into new metalminds, and the rest is used for effect.

4) By continually burning/storing, you have basically created an infinite supply of whatever ability you can store/burn.

The only limit is how much of whatever metal you need can be obtained.

To use a money metaphor, I tell you I am going to give you $10 for every $1 you give to someone else. You give someone $1, I give you $10. You take that $10, keep $5 for yourself, and give away $5. I give you $50. You keep $25, give away $25. I give you $250. You keep $125, give away $125. The cycle continues forever. You have basically created infinite money for yourself at the cost of giving away only a single dollar.

Also, it seems that burning the metalmind releases the feruchemical attribute instead of the allomantic attribute. So Miles gets healing from burning his metalminds, but doesn't constantly see his alternate self.

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I do not exactly understand how Compounding works when you are a Twinborn. I used to think I understood, but now I am thoroughly confused. I used to think that Compounding stored basically Allomantic charge into a Feruchemical metalmind. For example, a pewter/pewter Twinborn would raise his strength by burning pewter but instead of getting stronger the Twinborn would simply store that extra strength into the pewter metalmind for later.

However, we see from Miles Dagouter that this is not the case. He is a gold/gold Twinborn and uses this to heal dramatically faster than an average gold Feruchemist. Unlike a pewter/pewter Twinborn, you can ferochemically store healing in gold, but allomancitally burning gold has nothing to do with healing. So how is it Miles can heal faster?

And it is not as if being a Compound Twinborn possibly changes the nature of the allomantic charge because Miles still burns gold to see past/potential versions of himself. This next part is speculation, but it does not seem to even change the nature of storing health feruchmically. I assume that Miles survived his initial execution after the first round of shooting because he swallowed a piece of gold (though I realize this may not be the case). If this is the case, however, then it means he still has to store charge and run out of that charge like any other Feruchemist.

<snip>

Do Compunding Twinborns just always have their power on full for some reason (for example are chromium Ferrings always lucky)?

*Also for kicks*

How do you think Miles survived after being executed the first three times?

I will only answer these two questions as the others have been handled already.

Doubles generally have their Feruchemical storages tapped lightly at all times because if they have enough metal they can have an effective infinite storage, by using the logic that DariusJenai summed up so nicely.

I think that Miles either had a few gold metalminds that were inside of him or he managed to swallow a few gold metalminds and then burned them during the execution. Or both.

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sazed could tap power from the rings in his body right, so maybe miles had some metalminds full of healing implanted in his body, he could tap them for healing then in the normal way, not have to swallow it or hide it at all and always have a supply justincase! the end didnt have to have been compounding

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To add to what everyone else has said, Sazed has a pretty good explanation of this in the last chapter of Mistborn 1.

I assume that Miles had some goldminds hidden on the inside of his body under his skin. He could use his healing to control the side effects.

I will say that there is one slight contradiction between how it is discussed in Mistborn and here. It seems that the Lord Ruler had to occasionally store some "real" age by being old, at least according to Sazed's description (unfortunately no previews are available on Google Books for me to cite to).

Miles on the other hand, seems to be able to basically endlessly recycle his healing, burning some feruchemical storages and presumably able to to use some of the excess healing to fill other metalminds which could later be burned. The term "compounding" basically implies this-endless multiplying of healing. I don't have a problem with the explanation, but it contradicts the way TLR's powers were explained.

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To add to what everyone else has said, Sazed has a pretty good explanation of this in the last chapter of Mistborn 1.

I assume that Miles had some goldminds hidden on the inside of his body under his skin. He could use his healing to control the side effects.

I will say that there is one slight contradiction between how it is discussed in Mistborn and here. It seems that the Lord Ruler had to occasionally store some "real" age by being old, at least according to Sazed's description (unfortunately no previews are available on Google Books for me to cite to).

Miles on the other hand, seems to be able to basically endlessly recycle his healing, burning some feruchemical storages and presumably able to to use some of the excess healing to fill other metalminds which could later be burned. The term "compounding" basically implies this-endless multiplying of healing. I don't have a problem with the explanation, but it contradicts the way TLR's powers were explained.

Actually, somebody else here has done a good job of explaining this discrepancy. The difference between age and health is that age is something that gets continually more difficult to maintain using compounding. In order to stay the same age, you have to keep using up more and more of it. With health (or most other Feruchemical attributes), you just need to keep using the same amount until you die. Thus the cost of compounding is markedly less extreme for anything besides age. Considering how long TLR had been ruling, it's no wonder it had begun taking a toll on him.

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Actually, somebody else here has done a good job of explaining this discrepancy. The difference between age and health is that age is something that gets continually more difficult to maintain using compounding. In order to stay the same age, you have to keep using up more and more of it. With health (or most other Feruchemical attributes), you just need to keep using the same amount until you die. Thus the cost of compounding is markedly less extreme for anything besides age. Considering how long TLR had been ruling, it's no wonder it had begun taking a toll on him.

But there's still not any reason that he would need to store *new* age by being old, regardless of the amount. He could always just burn an existing metalmind to generate new age, with some of the excess being stored and some being used to keep him young.

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I don't full understand the discrepancy myself, but I overheard Brandon saying something about TLR's body continually trying to snap back to his true age and that having an effect on how much age he was required to expend in a given moment to maintain.

if you think about it though it makes sense, sure he might be getting a 1:10 ratio, but in order to maintain youth he has to expend more of his metalmind/allomanctic burning at any one given time to erase 900 years, and that is just to leave him as a 100 year old (with perfect health because of his gold compounding that he was obviously doing as well).

Like with Wax, when he makes himself heavy enough to flatten the building by pushing on it, he expends years of stored weight at one time. I would think even with compounding, for age, TLR would eventually have to make new metalminds from true age.

OR he might have just wanted to 'feel his age' for a time and feel the weight of the years while he was in his study room, contemplating the past...

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I understand that there are plausible post-hac explanations (i.e. TLR isn't storing new age, he's doing it the same way as Miles but during his "old" periods he's just drawing less age.) And in some ways the Miles model makes more practical sense. But that wasn't how it was described by Sazed or by Brandon previous to this book.

I don't full understand the discrepancy myself, but I overheard Brandon saying something about TLR's body continually trying to snap back to his true age and that having an effect on how much age he was required to expend in a given moment to maintain.

if you think about it though it makes sense, sure he might be getting a 1:10 ratio, but in order to maintain youth he has to expend more of his metalmind/allomanctic burning at any one given time to erase 900 years, and that is just to leave him as a 100 year old (with perfect health because of his gold compounding that he was obviously doing as well).

Like with Wax, when he makes himself heavy enough to flatten the building by pushing on it, he expends years of stored weight at one time. I would think even with compounding, for age, TLR would eventually have to make new metalminds from true age.

OR he might have just wanted to 'feel his age' for a time and feel the weight of the years while he was in his study room, contemplating the past...

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I understand that there are plausible post-hac explanations (i.e. TLR isn't storing new age, he's doing it the same way as Miles but during his "old" periods he's just drawing less age.) And in some ways the Miles model makes more practical sense. But that wasn't how it was described by Sazed or by Brandon previous to this book.

Shrug, it could just be that he wanted to feel his age when he was in that room then. Don't know, but given that Brandon is very much into the 'hard' magic thing, this cant' actually be a discrepancy in how the magic is working, it is just a deficiency in our understanding of the magic.

Having looked it up, is seems Sazed's explination backs up TLR's AND Mile's version... "limitless supply" and "spend time aged"...

if my guess is correct, he would have gained a limitless supply of youth, since he was drawing most of his power from the metal itself, rather than his own body. All he would have to do was spend the occasional bit of time aged to give himself Feruchemical storages to burn and stay young.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-04-01). Mistborn: The Final Empire (Mistborn, Book 1) (p. 530). Tor Books. Kindle Edition. Emphasis mine

I reconcile that by saying, Sazed is just guessing at the end of Mistborn, he doesn't really know what exactly was going on, or how that would apply to other compounders...

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I think TLR felt it would be best for him to feel his age sometimes, and that he didn't really ever need to spend time old.

Alternatively, that was when he was rebuilding his stored charges, and didn't have enough youth stored up in the unburned new metalminds to stay at the age he usually kept himself at.

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I think TLR felt it would be best for him to feel his age sometimes, and that he didn't really ever need to spend time old.

Alternatively, that was when he was rebuilding his stored charges, and didn't have enough youth stored up in the unburned new metalminds to stay at the age he usually kept himself at.

Someone came up with the idea that he takes the bracers out of his arms to escape Ruin's whispering and runs his Age off of another metalmind or some Atium, so he may not be able to tap/burn as much Age without the bracers in. Just another theory that has been put forward.

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Someone came up with the idea that he takes the bracers out of his arms to escape Ruin's whispering and runs his Age off of another metalmind or some Atium, so he may not be able to tap/burn as much Age without the bracers in. Just another theory that has been put forward.

I just re-read those sections and I don't see anything that indicates he was without his bracers when he was old in the room, so it's a great idea, but pure speculation I think.

Unless there is something in WoA or HoA that indicates he would remove metals to get rid of Ruin's voice...

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It's worth noting Miles went kind of nuts with the number of metalminds he had. We're talking 30 gold implants at any given time, while TLR had two bracers. That's presumably why TLR carried on a conversation with two spears in his chest instead of them just popping out. Plus, Compounding consumes the metal, and the bracers were apparently an Atium alloy and therefore in short supply.

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It's worth noting Miles went kind of nuts with the number of metalminds he had. We're talking 30 gold implants at any given time, while TLR had two bracers. That's presumably why TLR carried on a conversation with two spears in his chest instead of them just popping out. Plus, Compounding consumes the metal, and the bracers were apparently an Atium alloy and therefore in short supply.

Welcome to the boards!

I would say that TLR was just as "crazy" with his metalminds as Miles was, we know from the books that TLR survived beheadings which is something even Miles would have struggled with I think.

Yes compounding consumes the metal, but TLR had access to the entire wealth of Atium stored in the Kandra homeland, which was enough Atium to power a few hundred Atium mistings for hours of combat against Koloss, so I don't think it was in short enough supply that he would have been forced to spend 'old time' because of a lack of Atium.

Maybe it was just his overconfidence in his abilities that caused TLR to not be constantly burning and storing age the way Miles was constantly burning and storing health in his goldminds, though he obviously used and compounded Gold as much as Miles did given his healing abilities.

I think the spear thing was just a "show of force" so to speak by TLR.

Edited by Green Hoodie Mistborn
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I'm thinking TLR used his massively powerful pewter to severely reduce his need for gold compounding. Plus he apparently used non-compounded metalminds, hence the non-implanted jewelry. I guess "old time" was a result of his constantly-increasing need for stored youth, as by the end he'd need to store an amount equivalent to being a thousand years old per second he spent being twenty. He doesn't apparently stop tapping his youth entirely, though, since when the bracers are removed he collapses almost instantly.

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I think when he's being "old" he's doing two things at the same time- he's first of all allomantically burning his furchemal storages, but I think while doing that, he's also storing a little bit of that age he's getting out into a new bracer, so he can continue to be "young".

So he's older than his norm, but he isn't anywhere close to his real age.

So normally, he's burning about 1000 years of atium to stay young. However, when he's being "old", he continues to burn 1000 years of age, but he stores 100 years into a new storage, so he would look about 100 years old (though still in perfect health). He then allomantically burns that 100 years of age, getting a tenfold increase of power, and making it so that he gets 1000 years of age out of it. He then goes around like that until he starts noticing that he's getting a little low, so he repeats.

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I don't really understand how age is different from health :/ if you have created through compounding 10 years stored (from 1) and then drew that 10 years, so you are 9 years younger then you were, there is no good reason why it you took off the atium (or just burned it all away for age without storing it) you would suddenly become old again :/ your body would then surely age as if you were 9 years younger, you are creating more age in the same way miles is creating new health, if he gets an arm chopped up, creates some health to heal it then takes off all his metalminds, he doesn't start losing his arm again because is was already lost and he needs to keep burning excess health enough for that of an arm up until he dies if he wants to keep said arm, he can just turn it off

In the same way why would tlr lose all the age he has created just because he lost link to the metalminds, sure he was 1000 but his body was like 30, there is no good reason why actual age counts at all, it the body has just been made 10 years younger, its been made 10 years younger, not 10 years younger up until the point you stop tapping

(only woke up an hour ago so I may have missed something pai fully obvious but as I was reading this I realised It didn't make as much sense to me as I thought it did :/)

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I think when he's being "old" he's doing two things at the same time- he's first of all allomantically burning his furchemal storages, but I think while doing that, he's also storing a little bit of that age he's getting out into a new bracer, so he can continue to be "young".

So he's older than his norm, but he isn't anywhere close to his real age.

So normally, he's burning about 1000 years of atium to stay young. However, when he's being "old", he continues to burn 1000 years of age, but he stores 100 years into a new storage, so he would look about 100 years old (though still in perfect health). He then allomantically burns that 100 years of age, getting a tenfold increase of power, and making it so that he gets 1000 years of age out of it. He then goes around like that until he starts noticing that he's getting a little low, so he repeats.

This. And because age is something that he continually needs more and more of, the law of diminishing returns hits harder with age than health.

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ye has to constantly tap it sure if he wants to stay the same age he needs to tap a days worth a day, but he can make an infinite amount.

I think the distinction between age and any other compounding is the diminishing returns thing.

It doesn't take more gold on day 2 to heal as much as you healed on day 1 of your compounding. It does however take more age used on day 2 to return to your day 0 age than it did on day 1... do that for 1000 years and even an "infinite" amount of healing can possibly lead you to times where you need to be less young for a period to keep up the infinite loop in some way. There is also the point that TLR only used 2 Atium Metalminds and we know from reading about Sazed that each metalmind has limited capacity for storage, once they are full you have to use another one for any excess storage. So TLR was almost self limiting by only using 2 Atium Metalminds.

Wax used up years of storage in an instant to make himself heavy enough to flatten a building. How quickly would TLR drain the two metal minds on his arm to keep up 1000 years? We don't know, but it was obviously enough to keep himself young for audiences with his non-Steel Ministry members and public appearances.

Plus, can you imagine trying to swallow a bracer to burn? :lol:

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