My Optimistic Theory of Discord

[Heilven]

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I have an optimistic theory about Discord that I think is counter to the general community's consensus. I believe that Discord is what Sazed believes himself to be, rather than what he truly is.

To explain myself further, I think it's pretty clear that Harmony/Discord is 1 shard, rather than 2 shards in one vessel. The 2 intents have combined, which is indicated by Harmony's godmetal being it's own separate thing rather than an alloy of Lerasium and Atium. I recognize that this itself is debatable, but I think I think it meshes best with the themes of Era 1, and with the idea of adonalisium itself. The shards are shards of Adonalsium, and when you put two together you now have 1, larger shard. 

Anyway, I propose that Sazed actually believes himself to be Discord, and that is what is causing his schism. This meshes well with his character in HOA, where he was very distraught and divided on who he was as a person. So now that he is a shard, I believe he is more unsure of himself than ever. I believe this is what translates into the properties of Harmonium, for instance. We know that Harmonium has its unstable properties because of the ruin and preservation within it fighting against each other. I don't think this is indicative of two shards in one vessel, but rather that Sazed believes in that war within himself. I think this is supported by the experiments done by the set, where they were only ever capable of annihilating the Harmonium, never separating it. Only Wax managed that, and it was only because he has the specific intent to do so (similar to ROW).

My other main argument is intent of Discord itself. If Discord is the combination between to opposing shards like Ruin and Preservation, then this wouldn't be limited to just that combination. Mercy and Odium, for instance, could create Discord. We also have reason to believe that every shard comes with it's own opposing intent, so any combination of the two could create Discord. Meanwhile, Harmony could really only be created by Ruin and Preservation. Take Odium and Mercy. A supposed combination of the two could create a "harmony" between them, but I don't think you would name it Harmony. More likely it would be Restraint, to have godly anger but the mercy not to lash out. Harmony refers to the harmony of the world, to not destroy or maintain, but to have both together. To destroy the old to make way for better things.

However I believe Sazed is worried that he can't actually be that harmony. I think he sees the conflict within himself, and extends that to conflict in the shard. He is worried about harmony, and tends to slip into simple preservation, not doing anything and hoping everything works out on its own, fearing anything else to be disharmonic. In effect, his definition of Harmony is wrong, that perhaps it means for any good thing to occur, some equal amount of bad must come with it. And because he doesn't want anything bad to happen, he fights against what he believes Harmony is, hoping that the intent won't push him to destroy when he doesn't want to. While in reality, he fights against Harmony itself, which creates the Discord between himself and the Intent of the Shard. 

 Essentially I think Sazed needs therapy.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

18 minutes ago, Heilven said:

Essentially I think Sazed needs therapy.

How much would a therapist get paid to give Sazed Therapy? Lol.

[alder24]

That sounds good. Especially the last paragraph which explains why Ruin is subservient to Preservation. However if his inability to act is purely because of his internal fears, it doesn't fit with what we know from WoBs and books. But this is still good theory.

Spoiler

ericth

Could Sazed take down Rayse since he has two shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Rayse is VERY scared of Sazed. However, given Sazed is a composite of two diametrically opposed shards, he finds it very difficult to act.

Words of Radiance Los Angeles signing (March 5, 2014)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Sazed speaks to Wax

So, if it matters to you, this is actually Sazed talking to Wax here. It's not just Wax's imaginings.

I'm not sure what readers are going to think of this. My goal with the original Mistborn trilogy was to set up a mythology for the world, one in which real characters were playing a part. Sazed is, essentially, God now. Maybe a lowercase g would be better on that word, but regardless, he's the one watching over the world and making sure things go as they should. At this point, he's working hard to discover what's going on with the other Shards and to keep another disaster from coming Scadrial's way.

I've spoken before on my fascination with religion, and this aspect is a particularly interesting one for me. I've played with the ideas of men being treated like gods in Elantris and Warbreaker—but they didn't really deserve it. Here, however, we have Sazed who is approaching more of what a god would be. Should he be prayed to? Why or why not?

You should know that holding two opposed Shards of Adonalsium has made Sazed more . . . zen, if you will. Not inactive. However, he has taken a belief that both Ruin and Preservation are important in people's lives, and doesn't feel that interfering is something he should often be doing. He sees his primary role being to encourage people to be better, to keep an eye on the other Shards, and to make sure the world keeps working as it should.

The Alloy of Law Annotations (March 14, 2014)

 

[Heilven]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

 

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ericth

Could Sazed take down Rayse since he has two shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Rayse is VERY scared of Sazed. However, given Sazed is a composite of two diametrically opposed shards, he finds it very difficult to act.

Words of Radiance Los Angeles signing (March 5, 2014)

 

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson

Sazed speaks to Wax

So, if it matters to you, this is actually Sazed talking to Wax here. It's not just Wax's imaginings.

I'm not sure what readers are going to think of this. My goal with the original Mistborn trilogy was to set up a mythology for the world, one in which real characters were playing a part. Sazed is, essentially, God now. Maybe a lowercase g would be better on that word, but regardless, he's the one watching over the world and making sure things go as they should. At this point, he's working hard to discover what's going on with the other Shards and to keep another disaster from coming Scadrial's way.

I've spoken before on my fascination with religion, and this aspect is a particularly interesting one for me. I've played with the ideas of men being treated like gods in Elantris and Warbreaker—but they didn't really deserve it. Here, however, we have Sazed who is approaching more of what a god would be. Should he be prayed to? Why or why not?

You should know that holding two opposed Shards of Adonalsium has made Sazed more . . . zen, if you will. Not inactive. However, he has taken a belief that both Ruin and Preservation are important in people's lives, and doesn't feel that interfering is something he should often be doing. He sees his primary role being to encourage people to be better, to keep an eye on the other Shards, and to make sure the world keeps working as it should.

The Alloy of Law Annotations (March 14, 2014)

 

Thank you! And I actually kind of think these wobs can be explained in light of my theory. I think the language that Brandon Sanderson has used is very particular, in how person forward it is. For instance: "he finds it very difficult to act". This could clearly be explained by him finding it difficult to do things with his opposed shards, but I think the language is a bit specific. He finds it difficult to act, not it is difficult for him to act. I don't think that's very strong evidence for me, but I don't think it's completely unexplainable.

And lets look at the second quote. "However, he has taken a belief that both Ruin and Preservation are important in people's lives, and doesn't feel that interfering is something he should often be doing. He sees his primary role being to encourage people to be better, to keep an eye on the other Shards, and to make sure the world keeps working as it should". "He has taken a belief.... doesn't feel that ... He sees his primary role". Every time it's talking about how he perceives Harmony, not how Harmony *is*. Again, I don't think it's very strong evidence, but I find it striking how he specifies Sazed's cognition here rather than a fact about the way the shard works.

[alder24]

Those are not the only quotes about Harmony inability. Sazed himself write about it in a Third Letter from SA:

Quote

"I am the least equipped, of all, to aid you in this endeavor. I am finding that the powers I hold are in such conflict that the most simple of actions can be difficult."

SoS ch 8:

Quote

I will send you help.
“I assume, considering the source, it will be spectacular.”
Harmony sighed softly. In Wax’s mind’s eye, he had a sudden image of a being standing with hands clasped behind Him, eternity extending into darkness before Him. Tall, robed, back to Wax, almost visible and distinct yet somehow completely unknowable at the same time.
Waxillium, Harmony said, I have tried to explain this to you, but I did not do a good job, I think. My hands are tied, and I am bounded.
“Who ties God’s hands?”
I tied them myself.
Wax frowned.
I hold both Ruin and Preservation, Harmony said. The danger in carrying these opposed powers is that I can see both sides—the need for life, the need for death. I am balance. And, to an extent, I am neutrality.
“But Bleeder used to be one of Your own, and now she’s acting against You.”
She used to be of Preservation. She has moved to being of Ruin. Both are needed.
“Murderers are needed,” Wax said flatly.
Yes. No. The potential for murderers is needed. Waxillium, I—the personality you speak to—agree with your indignation. But the powers that I am, the essence of my self, cannot allow me to take sides.

 

Your theory has a point, Vessel can influence and even change Shard's intent by his actions and perception, at least to some extent.

Spoiler

m4ge

If a Splintered Shard is somehow reformed, is it possible to change the word that expresses its Intent?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but that's a very implausible thing depending on how... so, you're getting into some weird Cosmere stuff here. Most of the ways that these different Shards could manifest could be described differently. Odium is trying very hard to describe his Shard as something different, and there's an argument there. But it depends on if you're like actually changing it or if you just want to call it something different. You could just call Odium Hatred and it's not going to change anything, but if you wanted to change Odium to mean Passion like Odium thinks that it means, then that's more difficult.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Jess

The Cognitive aspect of an object is the way that the object views itself and others view it. Say the Vessel of a Shard started to view their power in a somewhat different way than when they first got that power, and the people on the planet also start to view it that way. Would the intent/mandate of that Shard be altered by that changes?

Brandon Sanderson

Within some limitations, yes. Certain Shards--certain Vessels believe it can go further than others believe it can go. But there is at least some wiggle room there.

MisCon 2018 (May 26, 2018)

 

What I think is happening is that Sazed doesn't want to be as Ruinus as he is Preserving, because of his personal views (SoS quote). He is disgusted by Hemalurgy, he limits it, he acts more on a Preservation side, neglecting Ruin. He mentally holds to Harmony intent, trying as hard as he can to keep being Harmony, while all his actions are already disharmonious, favoring Preservation. In my opinion He already is Discord, but he tries as hard as he can to change it back to Harmony, or he might not even know that he is Discord now - very Similar to how Odium tries to be Passion. But he will fail, and realize the truth soon, because his actions aren't in Harmony, powers inside of him aren't in Harmony, there is more Ruin than Preservation, and Ruin is subservient to it. He already is Discord.

[Heilven]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

He mentally holds to Harmony intent, trying as hard as he can to keep being Harmony, while all his actions are already disharmonious, favoring Preservation. 

So I think that the problem is that he doesn't mentally hold to Harmony's intent, and that's the whole issue. Take the quote from SoS:

Quote

The danger in carrying these opposed powers is that I can see both sides—the need for life, the need for death. I am balance. And, to an extent, I am neutrality

I think that this itself is the issue, because I don't think this is the Intent of Harmony. This is what I described in my post, 

On 3/7/2023 at 1:11 PM, Heilven said:

In effect, his definition of Harmony is wrong, that perhaps it means for any good thing to occur, some equal amount of bad must come with it.

He believes that Harmony means that both life and death must exist in balance, which requires him to take a wholly neutral position. But I don't think that's actually Harmony, and I think it's backed up in the subtext. I believe that Harmony is about progress, destroying old, bad things and creating better, new things. You preserve that which is good, and destroy that which is bad. But if we believe Sazed's definition, then you can't really make any progress, for all life must be balanced by death. Sazed doesn't want to kill anyone or destroy anything, however, and so I think he adopts that pure neutrality stance, not doing anything at all. This is more in line with Preservation, not actually the neutrality that he thinks it is. The actions that he takes however don't align with Preservation. All of the things that he does exude that balance, hurting one man so that he can save millions. I think you call that Preservation, but I really don't think it is. Preservation truly does not want change whatsoever, as we see in SH where he loved Rashek. Harmony would believe that Rashek should die so that the world could become better.

So he fights against doing anything at all, creating the actual Discord. I think the reason he gets worse over the course of Era 2 is because every time he interferes, he feels that he has gone against the shard's intent, and decides to fight harder to do nothing at all. But the actual Intent of Harmony wanted him to interfere, so he's really fighting against Harmony, not Ruin.

I also don't think that the issue is an imbalance between Ruin and Preservation. Ruin and Preservation no longer exist, there is only Harmony. So they by definition cannot be unbalanced, there is nothing to balance. For instance the reason there was an imbalance between Ruin and Preservation was because there was more preservation in each person than there was ruin. But now everyone just has some harmony in them, there is no imbalance. And I subscribe to the belief that he hasn't actively made Hemalurgy weaker, Hemalurgy's strength came from Ruin struggling to break free and gain influence, overexerting himself and making everyone's spirit webs weaker.

So instead I think the conflict that is driving Discord is Sazed believing that doing nothing is Harmony, while the Intent of Harmony is actually what he has actually been doing all along.

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Heilven said:

Ruin and Preservation no longer exist, there is only Harmony

If Ruin and Preservation no longer exist, why is there still Atium and Lerasium, which are pure Ruin or Preservation? And there is this WoB which specify where did name Harmony/Discord came from - it's about control over two opposing halfs:

Spoiler

chasmfriend's friend (Paraphrased)

My friend asked for Brandon to write something about Harmony in her Alloy of Law.

Brandon Sanderson

There's another name Harmony could go by if he weren't able to control the conflict between his halves… *to Zas* Have you guys figured that one out yet? Oh, I'm not going to say anything. You have it on recording… I was pretty sneaky with that one so I don't know if you have it or not.

Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)

 

Your theory is good, it might as well be like that. 

[Heilven]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

If Ruin and Preservation no longer exist, why is there still Atium and Lerasium, which are pure Ruin or Preservation? 

I think that while Harmony is 1 thing, his investiture is still the superposition of Ruin and Preservation. So one could create Atium and Lerasium by "unsuperpositioning" the two, like what Wax does. SA Spoilers:

Spoiler

I'm taking this from our understanding of Pure Tones, as well as Warlight and Towerlight. I think Harmonium is the solid form of the combination of Ruin and Preservation's pure tones. I'd argue this is different from an alloy, because what you get out of it is one entirely new thing, and separating that is very different from separating an alloy. So theoretically one could have created harmonium before harmony existed, but it would require either the ability to superposite the solid form of investiture (which we don't know how to do), or access to the gaseous form of Ruin's investiture (and we don't even know if that ever existed).

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I wouldn't be shocked if this ends up being untrue, but I think there's at least enough evidence that it's worth considering, and I think it has important implications for how the cosmere works. I also like this theory because it leads to a good ending, and I like it when good things happen. So I do partly believe it just because I want it to be true.

[GeoMantrix]

I know were out of the Spoiler timeframe, but I there's definite end zone content in this post.

The Kandra say that if harmonium splits, harmony ceases to be harmony.  In the Lost Metal, we see a progression of Discord splitting from Harmony, in the Part 1 conversation with Wax, in the conversation with Wayne, and then in the coversation with Kelsier.  

I believe Discord has happened.  Thinking about it, I bet what we have now is a Gold/11th metal division of Sazed's selves, and based on the part 3 impression Wax gets WRT being a sword, it's a scholar/warrior divide.

[Bigmikey357]

If Cultivation had the opportunity to hold the Harmony Shard she'd do a better job of it than Sazed. He doesn't have the temperament for true Harmony, he'd be better as just Preservation.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

On 08/03/2023 at 9:39 PM, Heilven said:

 

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I'm taking this from our understanding of Pure Tones, as well as Warlight and Towerlight. I think Harmonium is the solid form of the combination of Ruin and Preservation's pure tones. I'd argue this is different from an alloy, because what you get out of it is one entirely new thing, and separating that is very different from separating an alloy. So theoretically one could have created harmonium before harmony existed, but it would require either the ability to superposite the solid form of investiture (which we don't know how to do), or access to the gaseous form of Ruin's investiture (and we don't even know if that ever existed).

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Ruin does have a gaseous form of his investiture, it's the black mists in the storage cavern under Luthadel that Vin and Elend walk through at the end of Well of Ascension to get to the room with the Well in it. Beyond that, the Coppermind says that in Era 2 'darker mists' come out at some night instead of the regular white ones, though I don't recall if we've seen them in an actual book yet

[Elder]

It seems to me that Harmony’s intent, as defined and executed by Sazed, is to balance out Ruin and Preservation.  Problem is, the two forces aren’t balanced - Ruin is still stronger than Preservation, with a certain amount of more of Preservation invested into mankind.  So Harmony compensates through mankind. This reflected in the simplistic commandment of the Path: do more good than evil, and in withholding of Hemalurgy.  Eventually, Sazed may lose the balance of Harmony and become Discord. If so, the Path may be his attempt at having humanity restore that balance.

that said, the seeds of Discord may be sown, especially if Hemalurgy is that seed.  If the Ghostbloods start spiking the extra Preservation out of people, I feel that could affect the cosmic balance of Harmony, Scadrial, and Scadrian humanity.  I’m not certain what the consequences will be, which way it will tip the scale.