Stick The Savant Posted March 6, 2023 Report Share Posted March 6, 2023 It seems very likely that, using proper methods, a wielder of an end positive invested art such as surgebinding or allomancy could fuel their abilities by consuming breaths. This would be cumbersome as a primary fuel source since breaths are relatively hard to come by, and would be lost upon use ( It could potentially be useful as an "emergency" source of fuel). There could be another use for these breaths that may allow for end neutral uses of end positive invested arts. In theory you could awaken objects to use allomancy, surges, and other magics. I could see many uses for this technique such as a Windrunner awakening a dagger with a command to use a lashing to target their opponent or awakening an object with zinc to inflict fear only in your opponents. many of these effects could be replicated in other magic systems but, this method would carry great advantages: effects would not run out like in Rosharan and Scadrian fabrials awakening gives a greater precision and variety of commands than most other methods (outside of Elantrians, Forgers and Bondsmiths) since the fuel is the divine breaths, there would be no loss of investiture Is there anything I'm missing? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted March 6, 2023 Report Share Posted March 6, 2023 Well, you can make Lifeless tap metalminds: Spoiler AndyGranny If you used a Lifeless body, would a Lifeless be able to access an untapped metalmind... Brandon Sanderson An unkeyed type of metalmind? AndyGranny Thank you, I could not think of that word. Would they be able to access an unkeyed metalmind if the intent when the Lifeless was created, if the intent was that they could... Brandon Sanderson Right, I see what you're getting at. Yes, they could. As they could access and use any tool that is appropriate for what they're Commanded to do, they could indeed access a metalmind in the same way. In fact, doing so may, depending on the metalmind, be dangerous for keeping your Lifeless a Lifeless. JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021) But Lifeless has a brain, and he can understand that command. Regular Awakened objects don't have that, and would require more Breaths to Awaken to such complicated and abstract commands. Awakening with the use of just Stormlight? Not without few more steps Spoiler Ilkhan2016 Breath and Stormlight are both forms of Investiture. AFAIK you can power any of the magic systems from any form of Investiture. Zahel is on Roshar, I believe, primarily due to how easy Investiture (Stormlight) is to come across. AFAIK the form of Investiture doesn't change anything about the abilities. For example, Szeth was sucked out of Stormlight when he drew Nightblood; and Azure used Stormlight to Awaken in Shadesmar. /u/mistborn is that right? Brandon Sanderson A lot of this depends on the Investiture and the magic in question. Azure was legit using Breaths, for example--ones she'd brought with her. But Szeth was able to feed Stormlight to Nightblood, much as Vasher uses Stormlight to keep himself alive. To Awaken with Stormlight, the easiest thing to do would be to first change Stormlight into Breaths--something that Azure doesn't know how to do. (Admittedly, Hoid doesn't either, so it's not like it's a simple thing to achieve.) You could also theoretically use some magical (or mechanical) means to power your Awakening with a different form of Investiture. Extesian This is very interesting. Is it possible then in the Cosmere for the 'intent' (spin or however described) of Investiture to be changed? And I mean within reasonable limits (not the powers of six shards or any of that). Can a Shard effectively grow in power in a place (e.g. toward an avatar) through another Shard's Investiture being changed (not just corrupted)? Or is it just making one type ('intent' - you should canonize a word for this :D) of Investiture mimic the properties of another? Brandon Sanderson Most of the ways of accomplishing what you're talking about would involve either 1) fooling/overwriting your spiritual makeup somehow. (This is what Hemalurgy does, for example.) 2) Refining the power somehow into a more pure form. But there are a lot of variables. The way magic from Nalthis works, for example, the system is just looking for any available Investiture to power itself--and so basically anything will do, regardless of the source. This includes consuming your own soul, in some cases... You'll see terminology coming along eventually that facilitates talking about all of this. I'm not yet decided on some of it. Celestial_Blu3 How many Breaths does [Azure] have by her final appearance in OB? Brandon Sanderson That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. General Reddit 2019 (April 25, 2019) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stick The Savant Posted March 6, 2023 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, alder24 said: Awakening with the use of just Stormlight? Not without few more steps Hide contents Ilkhan2016 Breath and Stormlight are both forms of Investiture. AFAIK you can power any of the magic systems from any form of Investiture. Zahel is on Roshar, I believe, primarily due to how easy Investiture (Stormlight) is to come across. AFAIK the form of Investiture doesn't change anything about the abilities. For example, Szeth was sucked out of Stormlight when he drew Nightblood; and Azure used Stormlight to Awaken in Shadesmar. /u/mistborn is that right? Brandon Sanderson A lot of this depends on the Investiture and the magic in question. Azure was legit using Breaths, for example--ones she'd brought with her. But Szeth was able to feed Stormlight to Nightblood, much as Vasher uses Stormlight to keep himself alive. To Awaken with Stormlight, the easiest thing to do would be to first change Stormlight into Breaths--something that Azure doesn't know how to do. (Admittedly, Hoid doesn't either, so it's not like it's a simple thing to achieve.) You could also theoretically use some magical (or mechanical) means to power your Awakening with a different form of Investiture. Extesian This is very interesting. Is it possible then in the Cosmere for the 'intent' (spin or however described) of Investiture to be changed? And I mean within reasonable limits (not the powers of six shards or any of that). Can a Shard effectively grow in power in a place (e.g. toward an avatar) through another Shard's Investiture being changed (not just corrupted)? Or is it just making one type ('intent' - you should canonize a word for this :D) of Investiture mimic the properties of another? Brandon Sanderson Most of the ways of accomplishing what you're talking about would involve either 1) fooling/overwriting your spiritual makeup somehow. (This is what Hemalurgy does, for example.) 2) Refining the power somehow into a more pure form. But there are a lot of variables. The way magic from Nalthis works, for example, the system is just looking for any available Investiture to power itself--and so basically anything will do, regardless of the source. This includes consuming your own soul, in some cases... You'll see terminology coming along eventually that facilitates talking about all of this. I'm not yet decided on some of it. Celestial_Blu3 How many Breaths does [Azure] have by her final appearance in OB? Brandon Sanderson That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. General Reddit 2019 (April 25, 2019) I didn't mean to imply the use of stormlight. My idea was to go in the opposite direction and use breaths to simultaneously awaken an object and allow it to use a surge. although, now that I think about it you could probably just awaken a fabrial which harnesses a surge such as the gravitation fabrial Navani makes. Edited March 6, 2023 by Stick The Savant formating 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted March 6, 2023 Report Share Posted March 6, 2023 4 minutes ago, Stick The Savant said: I didn't mean to imply the use of stormlight. My idea was to go in the opposite direction and use breaths to simultaneously awaken an object and allow it to use a surge. The problem with surgebinding is that it comes from Nahel Bond, the bond between spren and a Knight. So Radiant can't just give a surge to something, as this is given to him to be a bond, and a spren. The same with Mistborn, he has his powers because of the connection between him and Preservation. He can't give that to an object just like that. While you could make an Awaken object that would be able to use medallions, or maybe even a Honorblade, the question is how much Breaths would you need to give it for it to understand such a complicated and abstract command? Too much in my opinion. 7 minutes ago, Stick The Savant said: although, now that I think about it you could probably just awaken a fabrial which harnesses a surge such as the gravitation fabrial Navani makes. Yes, that would work. But keep in mind, fabrial is invested, it holds Stormlight and a Spren. It would be considered already Awakened, so it would be very hard to Awaken, and would require a lot of Breaths. Much more. Investiture resist investiture. However you could Awaken it before trapping spren in it or infusing it with Stormlight. Then you have to give it only so much Breaths to Awaken metal, which is still a lot, but doable. But then I imagine it would be harder to trap spren in it or infuse it with Stormlight, as investiture resist investiture. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted March 6, 2023 Report Share Posted March 6, 2023 Breaths can be used to fuel Surges, but they would be consumed as if they were the equivalent amount of stormlight, and it still takes Birthrate on Nalthis to get more, making it an extremely expensive power source. As far as making an Awakened Object that can use (or grant the use of) a Surge...Sure, that's probably within the realm of Robot-spren like Nightblood. It would take a lot of work, realmic understanding behind the Command, and an external power source. But Surges arise from Bonds with Spren, and Awakening has proven capable of mimicking a lot of those mechanics with Sentient Awkakened Objects. Quote Leinton (paraphrased) Can Breath be used to power Surgebinding? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) They are very similar Investitures, and most of the magics can be powered with the other magics if you are capable of making that happen. Questioner (paraphrased) What would happen to the Breath? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The Breath would be consumed in the same way that Stormlight is. A renewing resource, much like atium is. Words of Radiance San Diego signing (March 4, 2014) Quote Questioner You've mentioned in the last couple of afterwords that you get interesting results when you mix types of Investiture. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner Twinborn and Surgebinders on Roshar. Can you mix a form of magic with a source of Investiture? Can say Vasher use Stormlight in place of Breaths or would that require tampering via Hemalurgy or something like that? Brandon Sanderson Most of them require tampering. Some of them are a little bit easier than others. It depends on really what you mean. For instance, white sand can be charged in the presence of any Investiture right? It's just-- But that's not really using the magic, it's just charging it with other Investiture. But, you know, it would be very easy, for instance, if you can get yourself Invested-- Like, for instance, it'd be very easy to use Breaths to fuel Windrunning right? Because the oath and the bond and things like that are going to make it pretty easy. However fueling Allomancy with something else is going to be a lot harder. So it really depends on the magic. It's the sort of thing that there will be lots of science in the books dedicated to making happen in the future and you will find some of the processes these work easier than other ones. DragonCon 2016 (Sept. 3, 2016) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted March 7, 2023 Report Share Posted March 7, 2023 14 hours ago, Quantus said: As far as making an Awakened Object that can use (or grant the use of) a Surge...Sure, that's probably within the realm of Robot-spren like Nightblood. It would take a lot of work, realmic understanding behind the Command, and an external power source. But Surges arise from Bonds with Spren, and Awakening has proven capable of mimicking a lot of those mechanics with Sentient Awkakened Objects. Does Nightblood's bond provide anything except resistance to temptation from him? I don't think so. But I do agree, you could do it in this way, with limitations that you listed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted March 7, 2023 Report Share Posted March 7, 2023 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Does Nightblood's bond provide anything except resistance to temptation from him? I don't think so. But I do agree, you could do it in this way, with limitations that you listed. His connection provides the Telepathic communication and the whole passing the Temptation Test, in exchange for Investiture to Nightblood. But his Command was Destroy, so his expression focused on the realmic Damage ability of Sprenblades. Had the Scholars witnessed Spren and Radiants rather than just the deadeye shardblades, they might have tried for something different. I bet they would have loved access to Healing that didnt require burning a Divine Breath. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted March 10, 2023 Report Share Posted March 10, 2023 Nightblood's bond strikes me as more like a seon bond than a Radiant bond - telepathic communication but no granted powers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argenti Posted March 19, 2023 Report Share Posted March 19, 2023 (edited) On 3/10/2023 at 1:25 PM, cometaryorbit said: Nightblood's bond strikes me as more like a seon bond than a Radiant bond - telepathic communication but no granted powers. Well, Brandon has said before that Seon bonds are essentially Spren bonds, and if you were to take a seon to Roshar, you would get something like surgebinding. So they're probably similar enough. Edited March 19, 2023 by Argenti quote embed 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted March 19, 2023 Report Share Posted March 19, 2023 It would work like a spren bond, but grant powers? I'm not sure - Nightblood doesn't give extra Surgebinding-like powers to Szeth. (I think Nightblood does give the wielder increased strength, though.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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