3/6/23 -ginger_reckoning - changeling sub 10 (4055 words) (L, D)

[ginger_reckoning]

Hey all, we're approaching what I consider to be the end of act 1 here. Also, I finally broke the 50k word mark! 

Anyway, any and all critiques are appreciated. I'm also curious about what prescriptive advice/ predictions for the text you have for what happens going forward, because my outline for act 2 is the sparsest of them all.

 

Tags for language as well as drugs (also nonsexual nudity) 

 

Thanks again!

Edited March 6, 2023 by ginger_reckoning

[Little_Dagger]

As I go:

P.1. “ensure that no wandering humans” – why wear the true forms in the first place if it is so much hustle? Is it physically demanding to wear a human form outside or is it a “being yourself” issue?

P.2. “give one visions of past or future lives” – out of curiosity, is that true or just a common belief?

p.3. “slaughtered for recreational use” – I was under impression that the octopuses produced ink when alive, so why kill them?

P.8. “pleased to here” – should be hear

“a smile made itself comfy” – nice

P.10. – after chapter one, I was under impression they could all “sense” each other physically

P.11. – “Hoe comfortable was” – should be “how”

P.12. “esoteric spots of herself” – not sure “esoteric” is the right word here

P.13. “The process was ll too”- remove ll

“impressed her speed” – “with” is missing

P.14. “Miracles flowed through” - nice

Overall:

Congratulations on the 50k mark! That’s awesome!

I thought it grimly realistic how there always would be those who would try using power for enrichment. The opium episode was nicely done.

The eating scene was creepy. It is another example of how M takes control over A and it makes me very apprehensive of its future influence. It is also telling that M did not object to the opium production at all, which is another subtle characterization of the “well-meaning” god.

I also liked how A understood humans a little better here. I feel like in a story about the racial survival, it is important to understand the opponent.

I was slightly put off by the bone vs eggshell discussion in the beginning - especially since A goes on to heal folk in the end of the chapter without eating either (or at least, we were not told of it).

Also, something felt off about the H vs O showdown. I am not exactly sure what felt off, but I find myself distant from that particular conflict.

As for future plot, I hope to see G and his apprentices again, as well as the plot moving beyond A’s immediate concerns to a larger picture. Chickens are nice, but I hope A has a plan to get mila out of their oppression and forced illegal activities. I am also looking forward to a conflict between A and M, as well as its costs.

Thanks for the submission!

[Ace of Hearts]

Ooh, prescriptive suggestions! Time to see if I can think of any after asking for them so often in my work.

Overall: I was pretty engaged line by line and I feel like O and N as characters have more of a presence than many of the characters from previous chapters. My main constructive comment right now is that I think we need a clearer picture of the plot and how all of these scenes advance it.

In terms of prescriptive suggestions… since we’re on a Sanderson site, I’m figuring there’s a good chance you’ve read Mistborn, and I think what’s missing here is something along the lines of Kelsier’s big plan to take down the Lord Ruler. Same thing of a ragtag group of oppressed people, but what justifies the story and the PoV protagonists is how something big is clearly happening and how an unthinkable plan is being put into motion. Now, A doesn’t want to topple the whole regime, but I think his goals should be equally big and bold—something like stealing a magical artifact that can provide food instead of just some chickens. And then all of these scenes about negotiating with other people of his kind can be framed as drumming up support for this big plan that can help everyone, which will make it feel like there’s more plot progress. It would be easy for O’s guards and N impersonating A to be necessary for a break-in or distraction, and having that plan at the start will let us see that the plan is progressing.

As I go:

Pg 1. The focus on the chicken heist reminds me of a point that I’ve seen throughout—A isn’t exactly passive, but it isn’t clear how his actions are working towards his end goal. This makes the plot feel a bit weaker than it could be.

Pg 2-3. Still stuck on the above point. I do like the dynamics and worldbuilding here but I need to know (or be reminded) how meeting O is necessary for A’s big plans.

Pg 5. I like O’s strength and I feel like a few more tidbits of background about him would be good for backing that up

Pg 7. H on the other hand I don’t get as good of a feel for as O since O had the clearer plan

Pg 10-11. N interests me here and the story is able to sell that they’re very good at what they do. Again, my only big hangup is not knowing the stakes of the situation or how it connects to the plot.

[ginger_reckoning]

On 3/7/2023 at 9:32 AM, Yuliya said:

“ensure that no wandering humans” – why wear the true forms in the first place if it is so much hustle? Is it physically demanding to wear a human form outside or is it a “being yourself” issue?

That is a good point, thanks. I guess I should mention that not everyone is as good at shapeshifting as some of the main characters, so they try not to look human when they don't have to. Thanks for pointing that out!

On 3/7/2023 at 9:32 AM, Yuliya said:

“give one visions of past or future lives” – out of curiosity, is that true or just a common belief?

Haha it's a fantasy novel so it's definitely at least partially true 

On 3/7/2023 at 9:32 AM, Yuliya said:

pleased to here” – should be hear

Thanks for catching all these typos!

On 3/7/2023 at 9:32 AM, Yuliya said:

“slaughtered for recreational use” – I was under impression that the octopuses produced ink when alive, so why kill them?

I was thinking that it would be hard to harvest the ink when they are alive since you would have to drain it from seawater so it might be easier to just cut the ink sac from the corpse, but that does bring up the old issue of "why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?" I think I'll probably rewrite this so they have some sort of process that helps them collect the ink while the ocotpus is still alive

On 3/7/2023 at 9:32 AM, Yuliya said:

As for future plot, I hope to see G and his apprentices again, as well as the plot moving beyond A’s immediate concerns to a larger picture. Chickens are nice, but I hope A has a plan to get mila out of their oppression and forced illegal activities

Yeah, that seems to be one of the main problems with this draft so far, that its missing a larger goal/bigger picture. As with below:

 

On 3/8/2023 at 2:41 PM, Ace of Hearts said:

and I think what’s missing here is something along the lines of Kelsier’s big plan to take down the Lord Ruler. Same thing of a ragtag group of oppressed people, but what justifies the story and the PoV protagonists is how something big is clearly happening and how an unthinkable plan is being put into motion. Now, A doesn’t want to topple the whole regime, but I think his goals should be equally big and bold—something like stealing a magical artifact that can provide food instead of just some chickens.

Thanks, thats really helpful! I do plan on having A take a look at the bigger picture as the story progresses, but yeah, it could probably come much much earlier. The problem I face right now is that I want there to be this theme of him ramping up, as well as seeing him change from someone with small concerns to someone with much larger concerns (kind of like Dune, one of my favorites) so I feel like there has to be an intermediary conflict/goal. Do either of you have any ideas about that? I've thought about making A already involved in some m independence group from the beginning in draft two, but that seems a little too on the nose. 

 

On 3/8/2023 at 2:41 PM, Ace of Hearts said:

Again, my only big hangup is not knowing the stakes of the situation or how it connects to the plot

Super fair!

Thanks Yuliya and Ace of Hearts!

[Ace of Hearts]

1 hour ago, ginger_reckoning said:

The problem I face right now is that I want there to be this theme of him ramping up, as well as seeing him change from someone with small concerns to someone with much larger concerns (kind of like Dune, one of my favorites) so I feel like there has to be an intermediary conflict/goal. Do either of you have any ideas about that?

I think the key is that we need to see these larger concerns, or at least know they exist in a murky sort of way, from the start. I don't think A has to be the one with the plan for the big issues at the start, but I think someone does. Typically this is the role of a mentor character so maybe the solution is that we need more from M. Often times there's conflict between the mentor with big plans and the everyman protagonist so I think A's relationship with M is already primed for this sort of plot. Right now I don't get the feeling that M has a super specific plan and that each step A takes is advancing that plan, which I think we need for the plot to feel more connected.

What I'm imagining is that in these first 50k words there's more of M telling A exactly what to do as part of his grand plan and A has to follow along because the people he cares about are in danger now that being a mage put a target on his back. But while A does follow along, he is able to push back on some of M's harsher ideas and accomplish M's short term goals in a more peaceful way. It may seem like this setup takes proactivity away from A but I think it will actually add more if he's under more pressure from M right off the bat.

Anyways, as with any prescriptive advice take this with a grain of salt since there are plenty of good ways to edit the story from this point.

[Mandamon]

Similar comments to the others. I think the biggest thing lacking here is the big push into the second act. A has been pretty passive, and that continues with his meeting with O. He's concerned about getting hurt, but then nothing happens. He's given a chance to act freely in the city, but I don't really know what he would do. Having something big that he's aiming for will help a lot with the second act.

 

pg 1: probably WRS, but was C mad at A? Also, I'm still not sure what they're going to do with the chickens. 

pg 7: "when they talked about tools and pawns."
--I think the poppy growing was a good demonstration, but I'm starting to get a little lost on what the objective is for this chapter. Taking A to this place seems a little disconnected from the rest of the story so far. A thinks he might be in danger, but it's just a demonstration of his powers.

pg 8: “You’re not hurt, are you?”
--I think if there was a more salient threat in the meeting, this would resonate better.

pg 10: "She is the best we have, so you don’t have to worry about being found out.”"
--Ah, this is where this is going. It think it needs a little prefacing near the top of the chapter that A is concerned about going out, or being used, or something.

pg 11: "He was certainly putting up with a lot to achieve his goal."
--Which is what exactly?

pg 13: "It was odd, trusting a relative stranger with information that so far he had only told C"
--This seems odd, telling someone about a powerful secret that is the key to his uniqueness. Doesn't he need to keep this silent?

pg 14: "And he did. Miracles flowed through the city like water onto dry, cracked ground."
--so is his goal just to heal people here? I'm missing the larger picture of how this will affect the story in the long run. Especially as this is going into the second part, having a stronger objective will help.

 

Edit: Not sure why this was marked as a spoiler...

Edited March 12, 2023 by Mandamon

[Silk]

At first I thought “Blossom” at the top of the chapter was an indication that we were in a new POV, not a chapter title, but honestly that’s probably a me thing. Did the previous chapters have chapter titles?

“…and get them back on his side.” Aside from the short POV from C last chapter, we really haven’t seen much suggesting a rift between these two characters.

P2 “Was his new position of power…” Yes, good. I think we need to see more of this, and sooner, to make some of the characters’ worries from the last chapter and this one make sense. Also, minor detail, but the phrasing makes it sound like A’s been put in charge of something, rather than gaining new magic.

P5 “Criticize my work while the ground you stand on…” I’m sure it’s intentional, but maaaaan this guy is a butthole. But also, what exactly is his position again? I know he was important, positionally, but I didn’t think he was any sort of “in charge” of the gang either, which is what this scene more or less makes him out to be.

Edit: Okay, so this is sort of answered a couple minutes later, but maybe a reminder in the moment that O is going above someone’s head.

P7 “Excuse me?” The “why had he just said that” caused me to stumble. IT seemed like a perfectly reasonable thing to say give the circumstances, and A presumably doesn’t need to worry about staying under cover among his own people. 

P8 The gang politics stuff is reading like things we—and A—should already be familiar with, but we as readers at least haven’t had much introduction to it.

P9 I’m not sure I quite understand why we need someone to impersonate A. Is this just about ditching his guards? If so, why is that important? What is he prevented from doing if they are with him?

It also seems to me, though, that for an action that seemed like was a pretty strong taboo (impersonating other shifters) that people are doing it quite freely.

P11 “He was certainly putting up with a lot to achieve his goal.” Do we actually know what that is, in specific?

P13 “She didn’t react when he told her about Mel…” It seems like a big leap for A to tell anyone else about this, especially a stranger. We might need more of a justification/cue of how A feels/something that reminds us that this is a big deal. Right now I’m wondering why A needs to mention this at all.

P14: I like the last line of the chapter, but it made me realize… After the fact, it’s going to be very hard for A to hide that he was actually wandering around doing stuff when he was supposed to be practicing on pigs.

Overall: I’m very much into the idea of A changing in ways he doesn’t realize and this causing drama, but except for a few very light hints early on, it feels like we’re getting this arc all at once in just a couple of chapters, instead of seeded through the larger narrative. What you’re doing here is actually (IMO, anyway) a really tricky thing to pull off and is probably best served as a slow burn, with more setup and escalation to get us to where we currently are and presumably more escalation to come. Right now it almost feels as though the rest of the story – the chicken heist, getting the gangs to safety, etc – has paused while you deal with this particular arc.

As for prescriptive suggestions… I think the “Mel is changing A in ways he doesn’t realize that are ominous” needs to either be moved up in the narrative and be seeded and start building much sooner, or to be left very subtle in the first act while A finds his feet with all the other stuff that’s happening and then become a bigger complication the second act. Either way I think it is something that is going to need to start very subtly and escalate and become more obvious as time goes on. Having other characters—C and A’s parent are the obvious candidates here—react to things A says so he can bounce off of their reactions would be one way to do this.

I also think that at this point, A needs something specific to do – “helping people” is a very nebulous goal – and needs to have some specific challenges to overcome. And it would be good to see those things happening alongside each other; it sometimes, not all the time but sometimes, feels like the story focuses on one plot element at a time, so that parts of the book are paused while the story deals with the part of the plot that is on screen.

On 3/7/2023 at 8:32 AM, Yuliya said:

I thought it grimly realistic how there always would be those who would try using power for enrichment. The opium episode was nicely done.

The eating scene was creepy. It is another example of how M takes control over A and it makes me very apprehensive of its future influence. It is also telling that M did not object to the opium production at all, which is another subtle characterization of the “well-meaning” god.

I'd like to second both of these as being well done. 

On 3/10/2023 at 11:25 AM, Ace of Hearts said:

I think the key is that we need to see these larger concerns, or at least know they exist in a murky sort of way, from the start. I don't think A has to be the one with the plan for the big issues at the start, but I think someone does.

Yes, 100% this! You have potential candidates for this - they could be mentor types or even ominous types like O. 

 

 

[ginger_reckoning]

On 3/11/2023 at 4:07 PM, Mandamon said:

Having something big that he's aiming for will help a lot with the second act.

Thanks, and yes, I agree, I just still need to figure out what that would be :/

On 3/10/2023 at 0:25 PM, Ace of Hearts said:

But while A does follow along, he is able to push back on some of M's harsher ideas and accomplish M's short term goals in a more peaceful way. It may seem like this setup takes proactivity away from A but I think it will actually add more if he's under more pressure from M right off the bat.

Thanks! These are some good ideas!

On 3/11/2023 at 4:07 PM, Mandamon said:

This seems odd, telling someone about a powerful secret that is the key to his uniqueness. Doesn't he need to keep this silent?

The rationale here was that telling her the information would make the impersonation more believable, especially if she ended up talking to C. But now I think about it, A would probably also tell her to just avoid C at all costs. 

18 hours ago, Silk said:

At first I thought “Blossom” at the top of the chapter was an indication that we were in a new POV, not a chapter title, but honestly that’s probably a me thing. Did the previous chapters have chapter titles

I started giving them titles a few chapters ago, mostly for my own benefit because while I've been editing past chapters I've been changing the order around, so the titles help me remember which one is which lol

18 hours ago, Silk said:

I’m not sure I quite understand why we need someone to impersonate A. Is this just about ditching his guards? If so, why is that important? What is he prevented from doing if they are with him?

That's fair

18 hours ago, Silk said:

It also seems to me, though, that for an action that seemed like was a pretty strong taboo (impersonating other shifters) that people are doing it quite freely.

I think I will call this out more in the next draft, and especially how more people do it than A thought

18 hours ago, Silk said:

I’m very much into the idea of A changing in ways he doesn’t realize and this causing drama, but except for a few very light hints early on, it feels like we’re getting this arc all at once in just a couple of chapters, instead of seeded through the larger narrative

I think that based off this and last week's notes from everyone I will probably cut C's viewpoint from the last chapter. I think it might be better to have that be a reveal later on (ie, C tells A that they've been worried about him and doing some research in the background) 

18 hours ago, Silk said:

I also think that at this point, A needs something specific to do – “helping people” is a very nebulous goal – and needs to have some specific challenges to overcome.

Thanks, I will need to think more about this

 

Thanks everyone for the notes! Also, I know I requested to submit today, and thank you  @Silkfor allowing me to do that, but the chapter I wanted to submit is still not ready, so I will hold off for this week.