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Fullborn V.S. 5th Ideal Windrunners


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Fullborn V.S. 5th Ideal Windrunners  

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  1. 1. Who would win a Fullborn or a 5th ideal Windrunner



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3 hours ago, alder24 said:

@therunner Do you understand my messy explanation? Does it make sense?

I understand, however the problem is there is another WoB that states that Investiture in metalmind behaves like 'gas' and diffuses https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13238

So then the explanation you propose cannot be correct, since all of metalmind is Invested.

My solution is that when burning metalmind, the Investiture gets 'sucked' to the part that is being burned, and this rate is greater then burn rate (hence you can run out of Invested part, but not of metal).

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Here is something I don't understand. In books it's explained that "you are half as strong for an hour, and you can be twice as strong for an hour". But using percentages it is be 50% while storing, and 200% while tapping for an hour. But the WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126) says be 50% when storing and 150% when tapping for an hour. So which one is it? I'm I stupid and don't understand something here? The WoB version is additive percentages, while the books descriptions are multiplicative. I assumed the WoB version during those calculations. I'm probably stupid here, but for me those are two different versions.

Frankly I think Brandon is also partially confused about how exactly it works, so that when answering question it is easy to mix things up like this.

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Yes, that's what I think, metalmind and attribute it stores is burned away and lost. All you get comes from Preservation's power.

Alright, thanks for confirming :)

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In my mind the fight never even really starts between a fullborn and a radiant. Plate would crumble as simply as an egg shell under the hand and leeching would eventually seal the deal.  Minus speed... yeah maybe but every single metal does that.  Reach a hand into the plate and grab hold of the radiant and just turn up the heat and bake them inside their plate... eventually the stormlight will run out.  

With speed, yeah there is little Radiant can do.

Without speed though, there are limits even if those limits are very high and there are things Fullborn does not have answer to (e.g. Shardblade to head or spine, since that seems to require external Intervention to heal). Getting close to Radiant under such circumstances is dangerous.

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2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I guess my issue is that when capable of compounding that you don't suffer those same diminishing returns.  

You don't have diminishing returns during compounding, when you store compounded attribute in another metalminds. Deminishing returns are only because of compression to a greater tapping rate. You don't have that compression during compounding if you have metalmind.

If you don't have any space available in a metalmind, the attribute is releasd into your body, and it is compress to match burn rate. So you still gain more attribute than you have, and achive far greater tapping rate than you would be able to do with inpunt attribute.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Is there any point where burning it allomantically still loses so much of that stored attribute to make even the compounding net negative?

Never. Allomancy is always end-positive, the power is gained from outside sources, that's what this means. Because when compounding you always gain some x time more than you input, you always gain more. You can't gain less than you put in. 

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If that 100,000 months of speed were to be burned over a day or two or 7 wouldn't it then be split out and even based on the time to burn that metalmind?  And then, according to the books, you would also gain some form of bonus as that ludicrous amount of attribute gets fueled further from the spiritual realm via allomantic power burning it to access it?  

I don't understand you. You don't compound all stored attribute in a single moment. You burn it over some time. Let say steelmind is burned for 1 min per 1 g. For each minute that passes you gain 10x the attribute that you lost during that 1 minute. 

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I genuinely might just be going full retard on this whole compounding thing.  I should honestly just stick to my day job. I figure if compounding is the attribute in a metal being fed by allomancy and multiplied by that then there would be some theoretical break points.  

The attribute in a metalmind is only a filter to the power coming directly from Preservation. Your allomantic strength determinantes how big multiplyer there is, but it would always be greater than 1, because Allomancy is end-positive. You would always gain more attribute. And there is no diminishing returns during compounding, when you put that straight into another metalmind.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

With no diminishing returns thanks to allomancy feeding it we either end up with one of two things. Allomancy offering a flat rate dispite what is stored, which can very easily turn that storage net negative if a high amount was stored.

I don't understand how you come up with this conclusion. Compounding is a multiplier. It multiplies what you put in, and it is a constant value. If it's x10, then no matter the amount of stored attribute, it will multiply all of that by 10. 1h -> 10h, 10h -> 100h, 100h -> 1000h. The bigger the amount of attributes in the metalmind, the greater is the gain you have.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Or allomancy bypassing the need to tap and compress traits which would then make your limiting timeline be the metalmind size and burn rate.  

You don't tap the metalmind when you compounding, you just burn it without doing anything to that attribute. You are burning the metalmind just like it is an allomantic metal.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think where I am missing it is this third idea that could be feruchemical power still being compressed while burning it and suffering from large diminishing returns due to it acting as if that metalmind was tapped.  That is where I feel like the slider exists where everyone could speculate.

There is no reason for it to be compressed. You don't tap it, you just burn it, and the new attribute is coming directly from Preservation.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If his process is to write the scene and then have them make it so there is just enough power there to do cool thing X... then the compounding rules are all over the place and the existence of the bands being as full as they are kind of weakens the system imo.  Miles compounding health was never an issue for my brain to try to understand.  Only when I saw Mach1+ used for what could have been 2 seconds or longer did I actually have my brain break at the potential speed held by the bands if they were burnt allomantically. 

The difference is Brandon has accurate math and values for all his problems, when we are doing ours based only on assumptions. Every number in our math is assumed to be true. Brandon has even the values for how much investiture can be stored in metals/spheres - we don't.

 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I understand, however the problem is there is another WoB that states that Investiture in metalmind behaves like 'gas' and diffuses https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13238

Oh. My. Stormfater. Rust and Ruin! And I was so happy that I figured it out...

It doesn't make sense with previous WoB.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

So then the explanation you propose cannot be correct, since all of metalmind is Invested.

My solution is that when burning metalmind, the Investiture gets 'sucked' to the part that is being burned, and this rate is greater then burn rate (hence you can run out of Invested part, but not of metal).

So while metalmind is not burnt, investiture is equally distributed across the whole metalmind, but when it is burnt, it gets focused with some constant density and works like I just described?

Edited by alder24
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6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

So while metalmind is not burnt, investiture is equally distributed across the whole metalmind, but when it is burnt, it gets focused with some constant density and works like I just described?

Basically?
I would think of it like in the burned part it gets concentrated to maximum possible value (i.e. the burned part of metal always acts like full metalmind), and the Investiture for that is siphoned off from the rest of metalmind to allow that.
Basically, the burned part acts like a sink, or negative pressure area sucking stuff in.

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10 minutes ago, therunner said:

Basically?
I would think of it like in the burned part it gets concentrated to maximum possible value (i.e. the burned part of metal always acts like full metalmind), and the Investiture for that is siphoned off from the rest of metalmind to allow that.
Basically, the burned part acts like a sink, or negative pressure area sucking stuff in.

That sounds good. Good job on fixing the problem!

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1 hour ago, alder24 said:

You don't have diminishing returns during compounding, when you store compounded attribute in another metalminds. Deminishing returns are only because of compression to a greater tapping rate. You don't have that compression during compounding if you have metalmind.

If you don't have any space available in a metalmind, the attribute is releasd into your body, and it is compress to match burn rate. So you still gain more attribute than you have, and achive far greater tapping rate than you would be able to do with inpunt attribute.

Never. Allomancy is always end-positive, the power is gained from outside sources, that's what this means. Because when compounding you always gain some x time more than you input, you always gain more. You can't gain less than you put in. 

I don't understand you. You don't compound all stored attribute in a single moment. You burn it over some time. Let say steelmind is burned for 1 min per 1 g. For each minute that passes you gain 10x the attribute that you lost during that 1 minute. 

The attribute in a metalmind is only a filter to the power coming directly from Preservation. Your allomantic strength determinantes how big multiplyer there is, but it would always be greater than 1, because Allomancy is end-positive. You would always gain more attribute. And there is no diminishing returns during compounding, when you put that straight into another metalmind.

I don't understand how you come up with this conclusion. Compounding is a multiplier. It multiplies what you put in, and it is a constant value. If it's x10, then no matter the amount of stored attribute, it will multiply all of that by 10. 1h -> 10h, 10h -> 100h, 100h -> 1000h. The bigger the amount of attributes in the metalmind, the greater is the gain you have.

You don't tap the metalmind when you compounding, you just burn it without doing anything to that attribute. You are burning the metalmind just like it is an allomantic metal.

There is no reason for it to be compressed. You don't tap it, you just burn it, and the new attribute is coming directly from Preservation.

The difference is Brandon has accurate math and values for all his problems, when we are doing ours based only on assumptions. Every number in our math is assumed to be true. Brandon has even the values for how much investiture can be stored in metals/spheres - we don't.

 

Oh. My. Stormfater. And I was so happy that I figured it out...

It doesn't make sense with previous WoB.

So while metalmind is not burnt, investiture is equally distributed across the whole metalmind, but when it is burnt, it gets focused with some constant density and works like I just described?

I had been looking for that WoB too. Reading WoBs while shopping and then knowing you saw it but not being able to find it again is horrible.  

Anyways I think I am in agreement with everything you stated.  It feels wrong to say Wax could move well above Mach 1 for hours or days but depending on how big that metalmind was would be the deciding factor.  If it took a week to burn with the speed stored to make Marasi break the sound barrier.  It would be 100% depended on burn rate. 

The smaller the metal chunks the faster he would be able to run when burning it.  The larger the metalmind the slower he would run but it would last way longer.  To stretch it over even a week with that stored speed in a large metalmind would still give access to speeds that make Marasi and her dash blush.  

Again that is speaking for just how full the bands of mourning were.  Makes perfect sense that Miles was able to survive being shot in the face as it was happening.  The amount of storage a compounder can build up is absolutely ludicrous and it will only multiply itself as fast as you can burn through it. 

We don't know how big the bands were and I get that.  I was just playing off of how ridiculously full they were and what that means for compounders in the future.  

The figures had been 188grams of steel based on someones estimation of 24cc per metal and steels ~7gram/CC. 

We obviously don't know how fast it burns.  But I have seen in the vs battles people claim a flake lasting hours and a nugget lasting a minute.  The slider moves based on the current argument I feel.  And I do try to give the benefit of the doubt but we are still talking about tens of billions of seconds of speed used in a 2 second burst vs those same tens of billions of seconds of speed being stretched and then multiplied through whatever time frame that chunk of metal takes to burn.  

 

Edit :

In response to the burned part being condensed to its maximum potential then that really helps explain that the bands could have been made via compounding as well.  Given how awesomely full they were and that you would be getting the maximum benefit from burning it, we have entered into an even faster way of compounding metalminds as it will continually compound into itself.  The starting point would be next to pointless.  

Store a second burn it and store it and then burn that and store it.  Alternate which metalmind to burn from everytime you start gaining the allomantic effects and soon you would have only a pure / maximally filled metalmind. Then play the same game with bigger and bigger chunks of metal until you are holding a spear head sized metalmind.  

Edited by Tamriel Wolfsbaine
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1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The smaller the metal chunks the faster he would be able to run when burning it.  The larger the metalmind the slower he would run but it would last way longer.  To stretch it over even a week with that stored speed in a large metalmind would still give access to speeds that make Marasi and her dash blush.  

No. As I understand it now, size has nothing to do with how fast metalmind is being burnt. It only depends on the type of metal. Burn rate for the same metal is the same, it is constant, no matter the size or the amount of investiture. And thus the amount of attribute provided by compounding per second is constant. You won't move with mach 1 while burning a metalmind, as it requires 40x compression. That's too much.

The power of a compounder doesn't come purely out of burning metals, no, they burn metals to accumulate ridiculous amounts of attributes in their metalminds and then they just simply tap that metalmind, like a normal feruchemist, not burn them. That what Miles was doing, he was just tapping his metalminds. He didn't burn them to heal, just tapped them But because he had so many attribute stored, he could tap it with 20x compression without worrying that he would run out of attribute.

9 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

We obviously don't know how fast it burns. 

Marasi and Wax didn't burn the Bands. They just tap them like normal metalmind. That's it. 

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5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No. As I understand it now, size has nothing to do with how fast metalmind is being burnt. It only depends on the type of metal. Burn rate for the same metal is the same, it is constant, no matter the size or the amount of investiture. And thus the amount of attribute provided by compounding per second is constant. You won't move with mach 1 while burning a metalmind, as it requires 40x compression. That's too much.

The power of a compounder doesn't come purely out of burning metals, no, they burn metals to accumulate ridiculous amounts of attributes in their metalminds and then they just simply tap that metalmind, like a normal feruchemist, not burn them. That what Miles was doing, he was just tapping his metalminds. He didn't burn them to heal, just tapped them But because he had so many attribute stored, he could tap it with 20x compression without worrying that he would run out of attribute.

Marasi and Wax didn't burn the Bands. They just tap them like normal metalmind. That's it. 

This is where we disagree.  Where do we get that a metalmind burns at the exact same speed no matter what?  How is the metalmind then full ever?  

Is there a maximum space for attribute / molecule and once that is reached your metalmind simply burns at a rate of 1 molecule / second or whatever thus limiting your burn rate to that molecule per second?  

This would seem to contradict the strength of the allomancer playing any role in compounding as this is the physical limit of feruchemical storage.  

If a metalmind is so full of attribute that the burn rate is determined by molecules it actually makes a bit more sense to me that it can be limited. 

Your fill time would be filling a single molecule to its capacity and then that molecule once burned gets to fill perhaps 10 more.   

To try to quantify that from the BoM would be a real trick but that does a good job of putting us back into the RAFO box.  

So Wax can't burn it to move mach 1 due to the metalmind being stuck at a forced caped burn rate.  Filled simply means you have hit the absolute limit of attribute to be held in each atom for that metal so as to adequately slow down and bottleneck the end result of burning said metal.  

The necessity for burning the metal is to store it so that you can tap and get penalized adequitly per diminishing returns so that the story may continue with any suspense at all. 

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1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This is where we disagree.  Where do we get that a metalmind burns at the exact same speed no matter what?  How is the metalmind then full ever?  

I just explained it on the previous page.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Is there a maximum space for attribute / molecule and once that is reached your metalmind simply burns at a rate of 1 molecule / second or whatever thus limiting your burn rate to that molecule per second?  

Burn rate is constant, no matter the amount of attribute in it.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This would seem to contradict the strength of the allomancer playing any role in compounding as this is the physical limit of feruchemical storage.  

It's the exact opposite

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If a metalmind is so full of attribute that the burn rate is determined by molecules it actually makes a bit more sense to me that it can be limited. 

The burn rate is determined by the type of metal. That's it. 

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So Wax can't burn it to move mach 1 due to the metalmind being stuck at a forced caped burn rate. 

He can't burn because he didn't ingest the Bands. They have to be inside of his body. And there was so much attribute in them, that simply tapping them gave him more than compounding would.

 

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1 minute ago, alder24 said:

I just explained it on the previous page.

Burn rate is constant, no matter the amount of attribute in it.

It's the exact opposite

The burn rate is determined by the type of metal. That's it. 

He can't burn because he didn't ingest the Bands. They have to be inside of his body. And there was so much attribute in them, that simply tapping them gave him more than compounding would.

 

Honestly I feel like it is going back and forth so much.  I'm trying to not be dumb here.  

I'm saying is that gram for gram the bands were so full that had Wax burnt them he would have been traveling so much faster than tapping them would have allowed... unless there is a cap on tapping them.  

Is the cap for tapping a metalmind dependent on its size or how full it is?  Obviously pewter burns faster than copper or tin in the allomantic world but you are saying that it is the amount of power in them either has a bearing on the burn speed or it doesn't.  

If I burn 1 second of a steel metalmind does the metalmind get destroyed at the same rate no matter how much attribute is stored in it?  10 molecules at a molecule / second... do I end up with 10 seconds of burn no matter what?  

If I end up with 10 seconds of burn no matter what... do I get the same amount of attribute out based on how much was there to start with?  

You have 10 seconds of 50% speed in that.  You burn it and get 50% x10 each second?  

If I have 100 seconds of 50% speed stored in those exact same 10 molecules burning at 1 per second does that mean that I will get 500% x10 each second?  

How much attribute matters and your end gain goes up because of it or it doesn't.  

The rate of burning a metalmind either stays the same despite the attribute stored or it doesn't.  

My whole point is that the bands were so full of attribute storage that had they been burnt allomantically they would have given a gigantic boost of speed for the entire duration that they could be burnt. Whether they were ingested is besides the point as I am simply saying that Wax could have burnt a shaving at a time and done what marasi did... not just 10x as long but to magnitudes we can't wrap our brains around... because the compression and demininishing returns only happen when tapping regularly.  

 

All of that aside I actually enjoy the way the MAG works it and I am happy to allow that to sit as my headcannon but the MAG uses power ratings to limit what can be done and how fast.  

In universe is the allomancers strength going to impact it?  Elend burnt metal faster and gained more power from it than Vin. If they both were compounders would Elend be allowed to burn more metal faster thus unlocking feruchemy at a faster rate and gaining more from it than Vin?  

The idea that attribute stores evenly but when compounded and burnt, the attribute comes out faster than the metal can burn thus turning that metal into normal allomantic metals suggest that the amount of attribute pulled per second of burning will be the same regardless and you can simply burn longer... which would say that compounding gives you the maximum amount of attribute you can gain that way per second.  

In order for it to not go into the net negative realm we have to assume that had the bands been burned they would have given the same benefits that any other metalmind would have.  The bands ending up being the only viable "full" metalminds we have seen (though if Miles had so many I am sure most of them would have been full too).  

 

 

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Just now, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I'm saying is that gram for gram the bands were so full that had Wax burnt them he would have been traveling so much faster than tapping them would have allowed... unless there is a cap on tapping them.  

No. never. It would never be like that. Tapping is always better. There is a fixed amount of investiture that can be stored in 1g, Lets say 50% speed per 1h. Burning that gram would give you 10h, and it would take 1 minute. If you can't store it anywhere, it has to be compressed to that 1 min, so it would give you like 500% speed for 1 min without diminishing returns, with them like 300%. So you would only be 3x faster while burning metalmind without storing it. That's it. You can't make it greater. Of course numbers are just for example.

8 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Is the cap for tapping a metalmind dependent on its size or how full it is?  Obviously pewter burns faster than copper or tin in the allomantic world but you are saying that it is the amount of power in them either has a bearing on the burn speed or it doesn't.  

I'm saying the amount of investiture in it has no bearing on burn rate. It's constant depending only on type of metal. Explained on the previous page.

9 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If I burn 1 second of a steel metalmind does the metalmind get destroyed at the same rate no matter how much attribute is stored in it?  10 molecules at a molecule / second... do I end up with 10 seconds of burn no matter what?  

Yes, it's the same rate, no matter how full it is. The "fullness" of metalmind only determines how much of it you burn and get Feruchemical charge, and rest would be burnt like a normal Allomantic metal.

11 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If I end up with 10 seconds of burn no matter what... do I get the same amount of attribute out based on how much was there to start with?  

Because there is a fixed density of investiture when metalmind is burnt. Every burnt gram has the same amount of investiture in it. And power received is the same for every gram.

13 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

You have 10 seconds of 50% speed in that.  You burn it and get 50% x10 each second?  

yes, 100 seconds.

13 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If I have 100 seconds of 50% speed stored in those exact same 10 molecules burning at 1 per second does that mean that I will get 500% x10 each second?  

You can't fit 100 seconds of 50% in the same space that fits 10s of 50%. You need 10x more space for it. 50% isn't changed by compounding, only time is.

16 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The rate of burning a metalmind either stays the same despite the attribute stored or it doesn't.  

It's the same.

16 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

My whole point is that the bands were so full of attribute storage that had they been burnt allomantically they would have given a gigantic boost of speed for the entire duration that they could be burnt. Whether they were ingested is besides the point as I am simply saying that Wax could have burnt a shaving at a time and done what marasi did... not just 10x as long but to magnitudes we can't wrap our brains around... because the compression and demininishing returns only happen when tapping regularly.  

No, they wouldn't, because you can only burn so much metalmind per second and get so much power per second. Those values are always the same, no matter how full a metalmind is. You would just get a few times faster but won't be even close to mach 1. Tapping them just makes so much more sense. I make a math on the previous page on that.

19 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

All of that aside I actually enjoy the way the MAG works it and I am happy to allow that to sit as my headcannon but the MAG uses power ratings to limit what can be done and how fast.  

What is MAG?

20 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

In universe is the allomancers strength going to impact it?  Elend burnt metal faster and gained more power from it than Vin. If they both were compounders would Elend be allowed to burn more metal faster thus unlocking feruchemy at a faster rate and gaining more from it than Vin?  

YES! That is what give you attribute. Regular Mistborn would get far less attribute from compounding than Lerasium Mistborn. And Lerasium Mistborn would get less than Lerasium Savant Mistborn. This is what determines the amount of attribute received by compounding. It's not 10x we just assume for simplicity of calculation that it's 10x. The burn rate is the same, but the power received by each Mistborn changes. Elend didn't burn metal faster, he just got more power from them. Speed was the same for both Elend, Vin, Kelsier, Inquisitor.

24 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The idea that attribute stores evenly but when compounded and burnt, the attribute comes out faster than the metal can burn thus turning that metal into normal allomantic metals suggest that the amount of attribute pulled per second of burning will be the same regardless and you can simply burn longer... which would say that compounding gives you the maximum amount of attribute you can gain that way per second.  

I'm not sure I understand this fully, but I think that's what I've been saying. When metalmind isn't burnt, the investiture is evenly distributed, when it is burnt, it gets pulled inside to the maximum investiture density, and only the invested part of metalmind is burnt when compounding, thus burn rate is the same, and power received is also the same.

27 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

In order for it to not go into the net negative realm we have to assume that had the bands been burned they would have given the same benefits that any other metalmind would have.  The bands ending up being the only viable "full" metalminds we have seen (though if Miles had so many I am sure most of them would have been full too).  

It can't get negative, you always gain more than it was in them. And yes, the Bands burnt would give the same benefits as any other metalmind, at least in terms per second.

 

 

And yes, we are walking in circles, but you're starting to get what I'm talking about. This is of course my explanation. We don't have canon detailed mechanics of compounding yet.

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36 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No. never. It would never be like that. Tapping is always better. There is a fixed amount of investiture that can be stored in 1g, Lets say 50% speed per 1h. Burning that gram would give you 10h, and it would take 1 minute. If you can't store it anywhere, it has to be compressed to that 1 min, so it would give you like 500% speed for 1 min without diminishing returns, with them like 300%. So you would only be 3x faster while burning metalmind without storing it. That's it. You can't make it greater. Of course numbers are just for example.

I'm saying the amount of investiture in it has no bearing on burn rate. It's constant depending only on type of metal. Explained on the previous page.

Yes, it's the same rate, no matter how full it is. The "fullness" of metalmind only determines how much of it you burn and get Feruchemical charge, and rest would be burnt like a normal Allomantic metal.

Because there is a fixed density of investiture when metalmind is burnt. Every burnt gram has the same amount of investiture in it. And power received is the same for every gram.

yes, 100 seconds.

You can't fit 100 seconds of 50% in the same space that fits 10s of 50%. You need 10x more space for it. 50% isn't changed by compounding, only time is.

It's the same.

No, they wouldn't, because you can only burn so much metalmind per second and get so much power per second. Those values are always the same, no matter how full a metalmind is. You would just get a few times faster but won't be even close to mach 1. Tapping them just makes so much more sense. I make a math on the previous page on that.

What is MAG?

YES! That is what give you attribute. Regular Mistborn would get far less attribute from compounding than Lerasium Mistborn. And Lerasium Mistborn would get less than Lerasium Savant Mistborn. This is what determines the amount of attribute received by compounding. It's not 10x we just assume for simplicity of calculation that it's 10x. The burn rate is the same, but the power received by each Mistborn changes. Elend didn't burn metal faster, he just got more power from them. Speed was the same for both Elend, Vin, Kelsier, Inquisitor.

I'm not sure I understand this fully, but I think that's what I've been saying. When metalmind isn't burnt, the investiture is evenly distributed, when it is burnt, it gets pulled inside to the maximum investiture density, and only the invested part of metalmind is burnt when compounding, thus burn rate is the same, and power received is also the same.

It can't get negative, you always gain more than it was in them. And yes, the Bands burnt would give the same benefits as any other metalmind, at least in terms per second.

 

 

And yes, we are walking in circles, but you're starting to get what I'm talking about. This is of course my explanation. We don't have canon detailed mechanics of compounding yet.

Can we just take a moment to appreciate how much speed was stored in the bands?  

Spoiler

Sporkify

This is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

Footnote: This question was asked when fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy had only been seen in Rashek. As such, the term compounding is used purely to reference tapping at a higher rate than can be stored.
Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

If Marasi is running 3800% faster than her baseline for 2 seconds and we follow that math it is beyond disgusting. Each 50% past 150% halves the time she is able to move that fast.  

3800% to hit Mach 1 -150% to give us the total time we need to figure out.  3650% is being compressed.  3650/50 (because it is being compressed in 50% increments) gives you 73 times it is being cut in half. So we work backwards.  2 seconds of mach 1 breaks down like this in my mind.  

2^73= 9.444x10^21 seconds 

Breaking it into more manageable chunks it ends up being 2.99 trillion centuries worth of 50% speed to give 2seconds of mach 1.  

 

Honestly my entire questioning and understanding of compounding needs to have this checked first to move on.  It will be some terrible tasting crow if I am bass ackwards on this but this is what the WoB tells me the bands held and it was drained in 2 seconds.  

 

If that is the case... and the bands could be easily carried and even concealed in the case of wayne... and steel supposedly only made up for 1/16th of their mass... 

 

This is where I need my correction.  I'm happy to go back to talking in circles but first I need to hear either I am crazy or this really is what 1/16 of a spearhead was packing.  

 

Edit:  MAG is the mistborn adventure game.  It is wicked fun and even though it is not strictly cannon it is wonderful to have a set of Brandon approved rules and maths to play with in games. Plus a few bonus stories from Brandon in the books.  Kelsier training... Allomancer Jack escaping some Koloss.  

Edited by Tamriel Wolfsbaine
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1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Can we just take a moment to appreciate how much speed was stored in the bands?  

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This is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

Footnote: This question was asked when fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy had only been seen in Rashek. As such, the term compounding is used purely to reference tapping at a higher rate than can be stored.
Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

If Marasi is running 3800% faster than her baseline for 2 seconds and we follow that math it is beyond disgusting. Each 50% past 150% halves the time she is able to move that fast.  

3800% to hit Mach 1 -150% to give us the total time we need to figure out.  3650% is being compressed.  3650/50 (because it is being compressed in 50% increments) gives you 73 times it is being cut in half. So we work backwards.  2 seconds of mach 1 breaks down like this in my mind.  

2^73= 9.444x10^21 seconds 

Breaking it into more manageable chunks it ends up being 2.99 trillion centuries worth of 50% speed to give 2seconds of mach 1. 

I think your calculation is way off. 

One, there are also losses.
Two, you don't cut the time in half for each 50% increment. Remember that in the original formula there is supposed to be some loss due to compression, which is increasingly great, so in fact the loss for the 250% must be greater than 5 minutes from the 200% example. What Brandon states is also consistent with formula T/(n+1) - n*loss  with loss being 5 minutes which gives for T = 1 hour

  • 200% -> n=1: 1hour/(1+1)-1*5 minutes=25 minutes
  • 250% -> n=2: 1 hour/(2+1)-2*5minutes = 10 minutes

Other formulas are also possible like the one below.

If we take the WoB (including losses) you will end up with formula like X /n *5/6 * (3/5)^(n-1) , where X is the amount of time you stored (hypothetically ~100% of attribute), and n is the number of times you go over the human capacity . For Mach 1 (n = 40), and if the result of the above is supposed to be 2 seconds, then X is going to end up being ~230 years worth of storing.
If you were storing at 50%, then you would get equal amount of attribute in double that time. Not trillion centuries. This is when accounting for the progressive losses as well.

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On 2/28/2023 at 0:08 PM, Frustration said:

We call them Fullborn.

And I'm probably going to have to go with the Windrunner, but it's going to be close.

They can fly higher than a fullborn can reach, and then escape away in case things go bad for them.

Fullborn, while ludicrously strong, can't go anywhere that Windrunners can't follow, and lack a way to instantly kill them.

i think you're forgetting abt leeching. that, and a fullborn with duralumin and steel can move in the air in ways raidiants won't expect, and if they have atium? like atium is an instant win. or if they jumped up, grabbed the radiants leg, leeched them, then compounded iron and gold? not to mention there is no way a windrunner could possibly keep up with a fullborn. compound speed, instantly impossible to even track them because they're moving so fast. this radiant is outmatched in healing, speed, and firepower. the only lasting advantage they have is plate, which i honestly doubt could survive two or three punches from someone compounding strength and speed. maybe the plate protects them from leeching, but plate vs that much firepower, i think most of the plate would be broken pretty early on in the battle. duralimin enhanced coinshot, and compounding iron would mean coins moving faster than most bullets. now replace the coins with crates. or wheels. or swords. or just literal soldiers in plate. now you've got huge objects moving at bullet speed. on top of all of this, I think a blade would be particularly useless against someone coumpounding gold. miles literally was missing his head, and grew it back. we aren't even gonna talk abt the fact that the lord ruler walked out of a building as a skeleton, and healed completely in seconds (I believe the exact words in the book were "almost instantly" but don't quote me on that). on top of that, I don't think a radiant would be able to lash a fullborn. even if they could, the fullborn  could just pull themselves back to the ground. on top of all of this, the fullborn can essentialy put a pause button on the battle at any time. bendalloy is invaluable in a fight like this, for restocking metals or just to asses the battle field. the fullborn just has too many advantages in this situation, and most of the raidants advantages simply don't help that much in a situation like this.

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15 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If Marasi is running 3800% faster than her baseline for 2 seconds and we follow that math it is beyond disgusting. Each 50% past 150% halves the time she is able to move that fast.  

3800% to hit Mach 1 -150% to give us the total time we need to figure out.  3650% is being compressed.  3650/50 (because it is being compressed in 50% increments) gives you 73 times it is being cut in half. So we work backwards.  2 seconds of mach 1 breaks down like this in my mind.  

2^73= 9.444x10^21 seconds 

13 hours ago, therunner said:

If we take the WoB (including losses) you will end up with formula like X /n *5/6 * (3/5)^(n-1) , where X is the amount of time you stored (hypothetically ~100% of attribute), and n is the number of times you go over the human capacity . For Mach 1 (n = 40), and if the result of the above is supposed to be 2 seconds, then X is going to end up being ~230 years worth of storing.

I was using your equation Runner and end up with ~1370 years (11 969 333,49 hours (which is 43*10^9 seconds) of 100% speed), and I don't know where I could make a mistake. But that's still faaaaar less than 10^21 seconds which is 10 trillion years. That's just impossible.

15 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Honestly my entire questioning and understanding of compounding needs to have this checked first to move on.  It will be some terrible tasting crow if I am bass ackwards on this but this is what the WoB tells me the bands held and it was drained in 2 seconds.  

The thing is, Marasi only moved her hand to grab a vial, and with Mach 1 speed it would take her just a fraction of a second to make that move. not 2 seconds. So the required amount of speed stored is far less than 2 seconds. After the vial grab, she dialed it down to more reasonable, but still very fast speeds.

 

18 minutes ago, PinkPlasma said:

i think you're forgetting abt leeching. that, and a fullborn with duralumin and steel can move in the air in ways raidiants won't expect, and if they have atium? like atium is an instant win. or if they jumped up, grabbed the radiants leg, leeched them, then compounded iron and gold?

I agree, Fullborn with F-steel speed would win, but with leeching there is a problem, he can't simply grab a Radiant, as Radiant has a Shardplate which would protect him from being leeched. So first, Fullborn needs to smash his plate, which with speed and strength he has is an easy task. 

Atium is a no no. That's just too powerful, and there is no Atium in era 2.

 

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1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I was using your equation Runner and end up with ~1370 years (11 969 333,49 hours (which is 43*10^9 seconds) of 100% speed), and I don't know where I could make a mistake. But that's still faaaaar less than 10^21 seconds which is 10 trillion years. That's just impossible

Yeah, you are right it should be ~1370 years, I must have made a mistake somewhere (that is what I get for replying after midnight) :D

Funnily enough that it about the same order as what I calculated could be stored in ~300 grams of metal back on page 4, that estimated about ~833 years worth of storing, using the assumption you can fill out metalmind weighting 0.3 grams in a month.

Since regular spearheads weight around ~400 grams, and BoM was oversized spearhead, if it weighted around 600 grams and was truly composed of all 16 metals, Steel would take up around 37.5 grams of weight. Then basically we can consider that the original estimate (i.e. 0.3 grams can be filled in about a month) was off by a factor of ~10x. That is not that bad as far as completely wild guesses goes.

1 hour ago, PinkPlasma said:

i think you're forgetting abt leeching. that, and a fullborn with duralumin and steel can move in the air in ways raidiants won't expect, .

Duralumin and steel still won't be surprising to any Windrunner, they replicate that and more.
Even Fullborn is less mobile in air then Windrunner.

Quote

and if they have atium? like atium is an instant win.

Atium is no longer available so it is not being considered.

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or if they jumped up, grabbed the radiants leg, leeched them, then compounded iron and gold?

You cannot leech through Shardplate, so they first have to break that.

Quote

not to mention there is no way a windrunner could possibly keep up with a fullborn. compound speed, instantly impossible to even track them because they're moving so fast.

We have acknowledged that, Fullborn with compounded steel pretty much 100% of the time barring ambushes

Quote

this radiant is outmatched in healing, speed, and firepower.

Healing? No, not necessarily, it all depends on how much Stormlight Radiants carry. Kaladin on 3rd Oath healed having his spine severed repeatadly (as in dozens of times) and so fast that the spine got nearly healed in between two stabs. That is low Compounder level healing, and he was only on 3rd Oath and used only a part of single pouch of spheres.

Speed? Yes, no question.

Firepower? Depends on the kind. Lashing can create projectiles with far greater power than what Mistborn/Fullborn can unleash, but it is more effective at long range. Shardblade outclasses anything Fullborn has.

Quote

the only lasting advantage they have is plate, which i honestly doubt could survive two or three punches from someone compounding strength and speed.

Yeah, with speed + compounded A-pewter Fullborn could break plate.
Take away the speed though, and it is far more difficult for them.

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maybe the plate protects them from leeching,

It does.

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but plate vs that much firepower, i think most of the plate would be broken pretty early on in the battle. duralimin enhanced coinshot, and compounding iron would mean coins moving faster than most bullets.

And plate would resist bullets well per WoB.
However, bullet with steelpush and F-iron behind it could break one section of plate in few hits.
Would it work with Duralumin steelpush? I don't know, but possibly.

Quote

now replace the coins with crates. or wheels. or swords. or just literal soldiers in plate.

Where did all these useful object appear?
And can we place some useful stuff for Radiant as well? e.g. random aluminum sheets, and tubes to negate pushes/pulls?

Quote

I think a blade would be particularly useless against someone coumpounding gold.

Healing death is difficult, even when spirit is still in body (what happened to Wax).
Shardblade kills Fused outright, and severs on all three realms. So If compounder is severed from his metalminds, then he cannot heal.

Additionally, healing soul requires a lot of Investiture, more than healing regular wounds, and even then it takes time. So even if Fullborn could heal it, Radiant could just keep hacking away forcing them to heal over and over, till they ran out of healing, since Shardblade does not consume any resource.

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miles literally was missing his head, and grew it back.

No he was not, at least I don't recall any such passage.
And he was gold savant, not just Compounder.

Quote

we aren't even gonna talk abt the fact that the lord ruler walked out of a building as a skeleton, and healed completely in seconds (I believe the exact words in the book were "almost instantly" but don't quote me on that).

That never happened on-screen, it was only mentioned in legends Sazed was sharing I think, with only mention he survived not how long it took him to heal.

And there is WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/291/#e11199) that some of the feats (beheading, being reduced to skeleton) of Lord Ruler were intentionally exaggerated, since propaganda of that kind would help him maintain control.

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on top of all of this, on top of that, I don't think a radiant would be able to lash a fullborn. even if they could, the fullborn  could just pull themselves back to the ground.

Of course they could, why not? They lash Fused routinely, and those are Cognitive Shadows holding a lot of Investiture.
How would Fullborn pull themselves to ground?

Quote

on top of all of this, the fullborn can essentialy put a pause button on the battle at any time. bendalloy is invaluable in a fight like this, for restocking metals or just to asses the battle field.

Yep he could, as long as he has enough bendalloy on person.
But it would not help him attack Radiant, just take a break for a moment.

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6 minutes ago, therunner said:

Yeah, you are right it should be ~1370 years, I must have made a mistake somewhere (that is what I get for replying after midnight) :D

Funnily enough that it about the same order as what I calculated could be stored in ~300 grams of metal back on page 4, that estimated about ~833 years worth of storing, using the assumption you can fill out metalmind weighting 0.3 grams in a month.

Since regular spearheads weight around ~400 grams, and BoM was oversized spearhead, if it weighted around 600 grams and was truly composed of all 16 metals, Steel would take up around 37.5 grams of weight. Then basically we can consider that the original estimate (i.e. 0.3 grams can be filled in about a month) was off by a factor of ~10x. That is not that bad as far as completely wild guesses goes.

Yeah, this is not bad at all. Nice job with that smart math.

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6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yeah, this is not bad at all. Nice job with that smart math.

Can't really take all the credit, @Tamriel Wolfsbaine came up with the estimate I used as starting point.

And the rest, well the math is just a guess, but it is nice that two independent calculations are kind of lining up, at least being nearly the same order-of-magnitude.

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15 hours ago, therunner said:

I think your calculation is way off. 

One, there are also losses.
Two, you don't cut the time in half for each 50% increment. Remember that in the original formula there is supposed to be some loss due to compression, which is increasingly great, so in fact the loss for the 250% must be greater than 5 minutes from the 200% example. What Brandon states is also consistent with formula T/(n+1) - n*loss  with loss being 5 minutes which gives for T = 1 hour

  • 200% -> n=1: 1hour/(1+1)-1*5 minutes=25 minutes
  • 250% -> n=2: 1 hour/(2+1)-2*5minutes = 10 minutes

Other formulas are also possible like the one below.

If we take the WoB (including losses) you will end up with formula like X /n *5/6 * (3/5)^(n-1) , where X is the amount of time you stored (hypothetically ~100% of attribute), and n is the number of times you go over the human capacity . For Mach 1 (n = 40), and if the result of the above is supposed to be 2 seconds, then X is going to end up being ~230 years worth of storing.
If you were storing at 50%, then you would get equal amount of attribute in double that time. Not trillion centuries. This is when accounting for the progressive losses as well.

Thank you.  I appreciate other formulas.  Hopefully you can see why my brain was broken.  I was really tied up with this whole double the speed half the time thing.  

20 minutes ago, therunner said:

Yeah, you are right it should be ~1370 years, I must have made a mistake somewhere (that is what I get for replying after midnight) :D

Funnily enough that it about the same order as what I calculated could be stored in ~300 grams of metal back on page 4, that estimated about ~833 years worth of storing, using the assumption you can fill out metalmind weighting 0.3 grams in a month.

Since regular spearheads weight around ~400 grams, and BoM was oversized spearhead, if it weighted around 600 grams and was truly composed of all 16 metals, Steel would take up around 37.5 grams of weight. Then basically we can consider that the original estimate (i.e. 0.3 grams can be filled in about a month) was off by a factor of ~10x. That is not that bad as far as completely wild guesses goes.

Duralumin and steel still won't be surprising to any Windrunner, they replicate that and more.
Even Fullborn is less mobile in air then Windrunner.

Atium is no longer available so it is not being considered.

You cannot leech through Shardplate, so they first have to break that.

We have acknowledged that, Fullborn with compounded steel pretty much 100% of the time barring ambushes

Healing? No, not necessarily, it all depends on how much Stormlight Radiants carry. Kaladin on 3rd Oath healed having his spine severed repeatadly (as in dozens of times) and so fast that the spine got nearly healed in between two stabs. That is low Compounder level healing, and he was only on 3rd Oath and used only a part of single pouch of spheres.

Speed? Yes, no question.

Firepower? Depends on the kind. Lashing can create projectiles with far greater power than what Mistborn/Fullborn can unleash, but it is more effective at long range. Shardblade outclasses anything Fullborn has.

Yeah, with speed + compounded A-pewter Fullborn could break plate.
Take away the speed though, and it is far more difficult for them.

It does.

And plate would resist bullets well per WoB.
However, bullet with steelpush and F-iron behind it could break one section of plate in few hits.
Would it work with Duralumin steelpush? I don't know, but possibly.

Where did all these useful object appear?
And can we place some useful stuff for Radiant as well? e.g. random aluminum sheets, and tubes to negate pushes/pulls?

Healing death is difficult, even when spirit is still in body (what happened to Wax).
Shardblade kills Fused outright, and severs on all three realms. So If compounder is severed from his metalminds, then he cannot heal.

Additionally, healing soul requires a lot of Investiture, more than healing regular wounds, and even then it takes time. So even if Fullborn could heal it, Radiant could just keep hacking away forcing them to heal over and over, till they ran out of healing, since Shardblade does not consume any resource.

No he was not, at least I don't recall any such passage.

That never happened on-screen, it was only mentioned in legends Sazed was sharing I think, with only mention he survived not how long it took him to heal.

And there is WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/291/#e11199) that some of the feats (beheading, being reduced to skeleton) of Lord Ruler were intentionally exaggerated, since propaganda of that kind would help him maintain control.

Of course they could, why not? They lash Fused routinely, and those are Cognitive Shadows holding a lot of Investiture.
How would Fullborn pull themselves to ground?

Yep he could, as long as he has enough bendalloy on person.
But it would not help him attack Radiant, just take a break for a moment.

Still yet that is going to be a considerable amount of speed used up per second of burning a metalmind as well.  When burning it you would still be sucking out 1370 years worth spread over however long 37 grams would take to burn and then amplified right?   

How fast does each gram burn away at?  Per gram you would have 37 years worth of storage at 50%.  When burnt it is magnified.

I can see the allure of tapping for more of a bump, but depending on how fast a gram of steel burns you are still moving insanely fast just by burning it and it will be a smooth flow of that level of speed the entire time you have that steel to burn.  So long as you keep 1/10th of it after a conflict you can 

Pretty well tap and store back to your starting point no?  

1 minute ago, therunner said:

Can't really take all the credit, @Tamriel Wolfsbaine came up with the estimate I used as starting point.

And the rest, well the math is just a guess, but it is nice that two independent calculations are kind of lining up, at least being nearly the same order-of-magnitude.

My math was off base pretty bad.  I assumed it was double the time for every single 50% stacked on.  

Again I am glad it works out to have different math. My brain was hurting at the thought of it but with fresh sleep I feel better about it. 

It works out a lot closer to the MAG than what I was thinking. 

For those wondering in the MAG each metalmind works off of a charge system. A small ring could provide 25 charges.  In the game if you were to use 20 of those at once you could move for 1 turn at roughly 50mph.  There are rules for steel all the way to 50 charges in a turn allowing for like 200mph speed (bracers would be a 200 charge max metalmind).  

When compounding in the MAG you ingest or peirce yourself with a metalmind and can burn the charges away (losing them forever).  Each charge burnt turns into 10 so a ring with 25 charges could be burnt to allow for 200 mph travel for 5 turns in a row.  You can also split and use charges sperately storing some for later use or tapping from other metalminds at the same time to offer different bonuses.  

 

Totally a side rant there but the math lines up to that better at least.  

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On 3/12/2023 at 1:12 AM, therunner said:


Whereas you (again if I understand correctly) come at it from angle that when you burn metalmind you get back the attribute stored in some amount of metal + allomantic power.

Is this understanding correct?

Yep

On 3/12/2023 at 6:56 AM, alder24 said:

I don't agree. The power comes from Preservation. There are multitude of WoBs and explanations proving this, power comes from Preservation during compounding as this is just like a regular Allomancy, and regular Allomancy is fueled by Preservation. So power comes from Preservation, is filtered by a metal and attribute stored in it, and turned into that attribute. And that is the work I was talking about, the power does a work, turning into attribute, more demanding attribute, more work is done, faster the burn rate. Like weight vs speed. Likely nicrosilminds would be the fastes to burned, followed by chromium, duralumin and aluminum.

Yes, that's what I think, metalmind and attribute it stores is burned away and lost. All you get comes from Preservation's power.

Well unfortunately that's not true, any power in the metal is released to the user, not destroyed.

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

What would happen if Allomancer was also an Awakener and Awakened metal he'd burn?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

If he did that, he’d get Allomantic power and also get back the Breaths used in Awakening the metal.

Footnote: Supposedly it was around half an hour into the signing line; has not been found on the record although we may have started it after it was asked already; follow-up to this

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/120/#e8055

 

 

 

4 hours ago, PinkPlasma said:

i think you're forgetting abt leeching. that, and a fullborn with duralumin and steel can move in the air in ways raidiants won't expect, and if they have atium? like atium is an instant win. or if they jumped up, grabbed the radiants leg, leeched them, then compounded iron and gold? not to mention there is no way a windrunner could possibly keep up with a fullborn. compound speed, instantly impossible to even track them because they're moving so fast. this radiant is outmatched in healing, speed, and firepower. the only lasting advantage they have is plate, which i honestly doubt could survive two or three punches from someone compounding strength and speed. maybe the plate protects them from leeching, but plate vs that much firepower, i think most of the plate would be broken pretty early on in the battle. duralimin enhanced coinshot, and compounding iron would mean coins moving faster than most bullets. now replace the coins with crates. or wheels. or swords. or just literal soldiers in plate. now you've got huge objects moving at bullet speed. on top of all of this, I think a blade would be particularly useless against someone coumpounding gold. miles literally was missing his head, and grew it back. we aren't even gonna talk abt the fact that the lord ruler walked out of a building as a skeleton, and healed completely in seconds (I believe the exact words in the book were "almost instantly" but don't quote me on that). on top of that, I don't think a radiant would be able to lash a fullborn. even if they could, the fullborn  could just pull themselves back to the ground. on top of all of this, the fullborn can essentialy put a pause button on the battle at any time. bendalloy is invaluable in a fight like this, for restocking metals or just to asses the battle field. the fullborn just has too many advantages in this situation, and most of the raidants advantages simply don't help that much in a situation like this.

Even with steel the Fullborn can only move at near sonic speeds for a few seconds, which is not enough for them to win, and Shardplate does protect from leeching.

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8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well unfortunately that's not true, any power in the metal is released to the user, not destroyed.

But during compounding you don't get allomantic action, you get feruchemical attribute. It's different than the situation with Breaths.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Still yet that is going to be a considerable amount of speed used up per second of burning a metalmind as well.  When burning it you would still be sucking out 1370 years worth spread over however long 37 grams would take to burn and then amplified right?   

Yes, multiplied by your allomantic power, but if not stored, compress to the rate of burn time. 

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

How fast does each gram burn away at?  Per gram you would have 37 years worth of storage at 50%.  When burnt it is magnified.

We have no idea. Do we even know how fast regular metals like steel burn per gram? We know only that steel burns pretty fast, and yet few flakes still burn for dozens of minutes or more than an hour. Flakes are far smaller than a gram likely.

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Even with steel the Fullborn can only move at near sonic speeds for a few seconds, which is not enough for them to win

100% disagree. Even moving a few times faster, without approaching speed of sound would be far faster than a Windrruner can react to. Windrruner can move faster, but he can’t react to Fullborn moving at just 5x the speed. This is just human brain limitations.

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Man, reading this thread makes me go back and forth haha.

At first it seems to me like it should be obvious, the compounding of a fullborn is crazy compared to a radiant.

But then I think about how the Metallic arts are so lowly invested, especially when Radiants are dealing with insane amounts of investiture. So a 5th ideal Windrunner in full plate is likely immune to most allomantic arts, and has far more investiture to heal with than even a gold compounder.

I think the only thing that gives the Fullborn a real advantage is the speed. Assuming they have a ton of steelminds sown into themselves and a pouch of steel flakes, they could certainly do some real damage.

Holding stormlight definitely improves your mental speed and reactions, but not to the degree you would need. A steel compounder wouldn't be flash levels of fast, but even moving at 100 km/h would be crazy hard to deal with. And a steel compounder couldn't keep that up forever, but could keep it around for a while. I think the nerf here is that we haven't seen too much of compounding, and I think gold compounding is likely to be the most effective form. You really don't need that much extra health to heal with speeds comparable to a radiant, your issue just comes from running out of gold.

The issue I find is that a surgebinder is much better off just waiting for the fullborn to run out of metals. A 5th ideal Windrunner could fly up to a point where they *can* be reached by the fullborn, just not easily. Then just wait around until they run out of steel. While the compounded strength would likely allow them to shatter plate pretty easily, a windrunner could regrow it relatively easily. If that's even how it works, since we aren't entirely sure how many windspren a windrunner is actually bonded to. They might be able to call several more full sets of armour without expending any stormlight to call the spren back. And once they get through the plate, touching a windrunner is dangerous. Sure, they could shrug off a lashing with A-aluminum, but then they wipe all of the metals they had in them at that moment. You could get around that, but it certainly helps drain reserves at relatively low cost to the windrunner. Once they run out of steel and aluminum the windrunner could just lash them into space. The fullborn would survive for a while, but couldn't get out of that situation and would die eventually.

Now if the windrunner doesn't know the fullborn is coming? The fullborn wins. Run as fast as possible and crush the windrunners head like a watermelon.

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5 minutes ago, Heilven said:

Man, reading this thread makes me go back and forth haha.

At first it seems to me like it should be obvious, the compounding of a fullborn is crazy compared to a radiant.

But then I think about how the Metallic arts are so lowly invested, especially when Radiants are dealing with insane amounts of investiture. So a 5th ideal Windrunner in full plate is likely immune to most allomantic arts, and has far more investiture to heal with than even a gold compounder.

I think the only thing that gives the Fullborn a real advantage is the speed. Assuming they have a ton of steelminds sown into themselves and a pouch of steel flakes, they could certainly do some real damage.

Holding stormlight definitely improves your mental speed and reactions, but not to the degree you would need. A steel compounder wouldn't be flash levels of fast, but even moving at 100 km/h would be crazy hard to deal with. And a steel compounder couldn't keep that up forever, but could keep it around for a while. I think the nerf here is that we haven't seen too much of compounding, and I think gold compounding is likely to be the most effective form. You really don't need that much extra health to heal with speeds comparable to a radiant, your issue just comes from running out of gold.

The issue I find is that a surgebinder is much better off just waiting for the fullborn to run out of metals. A 5th ideal Windrunner could fly up to a point where they *can* be reached by the fullborn, just not easily. Then just wait around until they run out of steel. While the compounded strength would likely allow them to shatter plate pretty easily, a windrunner could regrow it relatively easily. If that's even how it works, since we aren't entirely sure how many windspren a windrunner is actually bonded to. They might be able to call several more full sets of armour without expending any stormlight to call the spren back. And once they get through the plate, touching a windrunner is dangerous. Sure, they could shrug off a lashing with A-aluminum, but then they wipe all of the metals they had in them at that moment. You could get around that, but it certainly helps drain reserves at relatively low cost to the windrunner. Once they run out of steel and aluminum the windrunner could just lash them into space. The fullborn would survive for a while, but couldn't get out of that situation and would die eventually.

Now if the windrunner doesn't know the fullborn is coming? The fullborn wins. Run as fast as possible and crush the windrunners head like a watermelon.

Unfortunately I think the "go elsewhere and wait" against a fullborn is unlikely to be a winning strategy.  They aren't going to tap their metalminds and burn their combat metals just because they feel like it while not being in range of the windrunner.  

Fullborn has bronze and is also a tin compounder now as well to deal with sneak attacks as well.  Tin and bronze both burn so slowly it isn't an issue and in the world of waiting out the other the fullborn has all the tools to win. 

Compounded nutrition, wakefulness, breathing, heat... they can pretty well outlast anyone in a seige type of fight.  

Plus the metallic arts are very energy sparing.  Everything is toggle on and off.  Light leaks... even out of imperfect spheres there is loss.  So long as the windrunner is relying on surges they will run out of resources waiting long before a fullborn who has compounded steel sight and bronze sense plus the normal bonuses from tin. 

Compounding tin has every benefit that tin savantism gave Spook but toggleable with none of the drawbacks.  

 

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1 hour ago, Heilven said:

Now if the windrunner doesn't know the fullborn is coming? The fullborn wins. Run as fast as possible and crush the windrunners head like a watermelon.

Eh, imo you can't 1 hit kill a high Ideal Radiant without something that turns off healing or gets around it (Nightblood, anti-Investiture, larkins eating all the Stormlight, etc). Stormlight healing should fix a crushed head if you're a high Ideal Radiant (though not a Herald).

I think this could easily become inconclusive where neither combatant has a good way to kill the other -- depending on how much f-Gold Health it takes to deal with Shardblade wounds. Leeching would likely be quite slow against Roshar levels of Investiture.

Edited by cometaryorbit
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42 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Unfortunately I think the "go elsewhere and wait" against a fullborn is unlikely to be a winning strategy.  They aren't going to tap their metalminds and burn their combat metals just because they feel like it while not being in range of the windrunner.  

Oh I know, that's why I said 

1 hour ago, Heilven said:

A 5th ideal Windrunner could fly up to a point where they *can* be reached by the fullborn, just not easily

I didn't explain this well, but yeah. Basically go somewhere such that the fullborn has to use their metals to reach them, but not out of the fight. Obviously at that point the fullborn just sits and waits. But if the windrunner was like 30ft in the air, then they aren't unreachable. Even then you would probably prefer to be on the ground so that the fullborn is using steel. Stormlight leaks, but to do things on par with a radiant you have to use a hell of a lot more metals, more than you would be able to carry comfortably.

Oh and on stealth killing a radiant, I think destroying the brain should work. You would have to be very careful to make sure you actually finish them off, but I imagine destroying the brain should destroy the connection to the physical realm pretty well. Perhaps they could be healed by an outside source, but so would anyone really. I'm not entirely convinced of that, but healing a completely destroyed brain feels too op imo.

Oh also I came up with this a while ago but I think an aluminum alloy hollow point bullet to the brain should kill a radiant with basically no cure. Provided you can catch them off guard.

Edited by Heilven
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29 minutes ago, Heilven said:

I didn't explain this well, but yeah. Basically go somewhere such that the fullborn has to use their metals to reach them, but not out of the fight. Obviously at that point the fullborn just sits and waits. But if the windrunner was like 30ft in the air, then they aren't unreachable. Even then you would probably prefer to be on the ground so that the fullborn is using steel. Stormlight leaks, but to do things on par with a radiant you have to use a hell of a lot more metals, more than you would be able to carry comfortably.

Fullborn isn't stupid, he won't be running around in a circle waiting for a Windrunner to go down, he has f-zinc, and can calculate in his head what Radiant is doing and predict his next moves. It would be very easy for a Fullborn to realize that Radiant wants him to drain his attribute, and then he just wouldn't commit.

38 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Stormlight healing should fix a crushed head if you're a high Ideal Radiant (though not a Herald).

Possible, but keep in mind that once his head is smashed, Radiant can't do anything, so Fullborn needs to just keep smashing his head, rip off his spine, his heart and wait for him to die.

39 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Leeching would likely be quite slow against Roshar levels of Investiture.

Yes, but leeching with duralumin would be far quicker.

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