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Fullborn V.S. 5th Ideal Windrunners


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Fullborn V.S. 5th Ideal Windrunners  

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  1. 1. Who would win a Fullborn or a 5th ideal Windrunner



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19 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

What is the burn rate and what is the burn rate based on?  

The burn rate is based on the work the power has to do. Like pewter does a lot when burnt, it gives you strength, speed, balance, a bit of healing etc, while copper does a little, just a little cloud. So the more metal is doing, the faster it burns.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

The longest lasting of the Allomantic metals is actually copper, which is used by Smokers to hide Allomancy. Tin is second, however. Steel and Iron are actually rather quick, but since they're generally used in bursts, it's hard to notice. Both brass and zinc are medium, as is bronze. Pewter burns the fastest of the basic eight, though atium and gold both burn faster than it does.

In my mind, it's related to how much 'work' the metal has to do. That's why pewter, steel, and iron burn so quickly. A lot of weight and power is getting thrown around, while copper only has to do something simple. However, I never really set any of these things hard-fast.

And, only atium is really all that rare. Because of the value of the metals, the noble houses expended a lot of resources finding and exploiting mines to produce the metals. This resulted in a slightly higher value for most of them as opposed to our world, but not really noticeably so, because Allomancers really don't need that much metal. Even fast burning metals, like pewter, are generally only swallowed in very small amounts. (i.e. A small bit goes a long way.)

TWG Posts (July 31, 2006)

How I understand it in terms of compounding, is that the more investiture per 1 g of metalmind there is, the faster it burns, as power has to do more work - providing more investiture. So a full metalmind would burn the fastest, while metalminds with 5s of 2x and 10s of 1x (basically the same amount of investiture) would burn very slowly as they are almost empty. So the slowest burn rate for steelmind would be very close to normal steel burn (because the steelmind has very little attribute in it), while the fastest would be much faster than normal steel, as there is a lot of investiture in that metalmind, and thus the power drawn from Preservation has to do a lot of "work". 

At least that's how I understand it. It might be very wrong. :lol:

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29 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This is honestly a thing that I am still trying to understand.  I get that allomantic strength and power come into play here and it is a great theory except when it comes to metalminds with next to no storage and metalminds with a boatload of storage. 

What is the burn rate and what is the burn rate based on?  

If you had the same mass of allomantic steel 3 ways... 

One with 10 seconds worth of A steel

One as a metalmind with 5 seconds of double speed stored

One with a metalmind with 500 seconds of double speed stored

What rate do these burn and how do they work in a way to power the feruchemy with allomancy without being busted and without becoming net negative?  

I have read some theories that the full metalmind would just burn super slow and meet some speed cap from burning. My issue with that is that it literally nets us an infinite amount of theoretical power that gets to be on a slider ready to be moved to suit the most current argument. You can make it as weak or as powerful as you want based on burn rate.

Burn rate is consistent (outside of flaring) no matter how much storage there is. In that providing Allomancy has the same burn rate for the whole metal, and providing the feruchemical trait is the same burn rate, no matter how full, but the two burn rates might not be the same for both.

Once you store enough of an attribute to compound the entire thing storing more doesn't help you as much.

 

This is how I often explain it if we have two compounders, and compounder A stored 1x units of Investiture in a piece of metal that he could burn for 10x units of Investiture allomantically, and stored 4x units of Investiture in another metalmind, and Feruchemist B stored 5x units of Investiture in a piece of metal he could burn for 10x units of Investiture allomantically, they would both end up with 15x units of Investiture.

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9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

This is how I often explain it if we have two compounders, and compounder A stored 1x units of Investiture in a piece of metal that he could burn for 10x units of Investiture allomantically, and stored 4x units of Investiture in another metalmind, and Feruchemist B stored 5x units of Investiture in a piece of metal he could burn for 10x units of Investiture allomantically, they would both end up with 15x units of Investiture.

But wouldn't this then imply that if you burn metalmind that has more stored Investiture in it, you get more units of Investiture per second?
Since the burn speed is the same, but the amount of released Investiture differs (being 10x + #stored-attribute)

 

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9 minutes ago, therunner said:

But wouldn't this then imply that if you burn metalmind that has more stored Investiture in it, you get more units of Investiture per second?
Since the burn speed is the same, but the amount of released Investiture differs (being 10x + #stored-attribute)

 

Probably, yeah I think that would probably work. Though I don't see what difference that would make other than allowing you to get to a slightly higher attribute level without diminishing returns.

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36 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Burn rate is consistent (outside of flaring) no matter how much storage there is. In that providing Allomancy has the same burn rate for the whole metal, and providing the feruchemical trait is the same burn rate, no matter how full, but the two burn rates might not be the same for both.

Let's say you have 2 metalminds, each weighing 3 grams, the same metal. A-mind has 3 unit of attribute, B-mind has 30 units of attribute. In your case the burn rate is 1g/min.

So burning A-mind gives you x*1 unit of attribute per minute (x is determined by the allomantic power of a compounder and is constant), while burning B-mind gives you x*10 units of attribute. So you get different amounts of investiture per minute with differently filled metalminds, as the burn rate is the same by your explanation.

Which is why I believe burn rate changes depending on the amount of attributes in metalminds. B-mind does more work, as physical work is W=deltaE. B-mind provides more energy per second, so it does more work, so by the WoB it should burn faster.

Edited by alder24
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1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Probably, yeah I think that would probably work. Though I don't see what difference that would make other than allowing you to get to a slightly higher attribute level without diminishing returns.

But then it would make more sense for Compounders to burn metalminds when requiring a lot of attribute at once, as it is far less wasteful no.
Especially since with practice you can regulate the burn rate.

However, we don't see that with Miles at all, who burns only to Compound in his spare time.

Edited by therunner
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57 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Let's say you have 2 metalminds, each weighing 3 grams, the same metal. A-mind has 3 unit of attribute, B-mind has 30 units of attribute. In your case the burn rate is 1g/min.

So burning A-mind gives you x*1 unit of attribute per minute (x is determined by the allomantic power of a compounder and is constant), while burning B-mind gives you x*10 units of attribute. So you get different amounts of investiture per minute with differently filled metalminds, as the burn rate is the same by your explanation.

Which is why I believe burn rate changes depending on the amount of attributes in metalminds. B-mind does more work, as physical work is W=deltaE. B-mind provides more energy per second, so it does more work, so by the WoB it should burn faster.

The reason that they burn faster is that you get the power by pulling the investiture through the metals structure, which is why the metal breaks. However feruchemical stores don't do that and burning it just releases it to you, so there would be no reason for it to burn faster as it isn't being drawn through the metals structure.

2 minutes ago, therunner said:

But then it would make more sense for Compounders to burn metalminds when requiring a lot of attribute at once, as it is far less wasteful no.
Especially since with practice you can regulate the burn rate.

However, we don't see that with Miles at all, who burns only to Compound in his spare time.

You only get diminishing returns when tapping at a higher rate than you stored, so you can just store the amount that you got from burning and still get the increase in efficiency, while also having the benefit of being able to draw on more attribute if needed.

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39 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Let's say you have 2 metalminds, each weighing 3 grams, the same metal. A-mind has 3 unit of attribute, B-mind has 30 units of attribute. In your case the burn rate is 1g/min.

So burning A-mind gives you x*1 unit of attribute per minute (x is determined by the allomantic power of a compounder and is constant), while burning B-mind gives you x*10 units of attribute. So you get different amounts of investiture per minute with differently filled metalminds, as the burn rate is the same by your explanation.

Which is why I believe burn rate changes depending on the amount of attributes in metalminds. B-mind does more work, as physical work is W=deltaE. B-mind provides more energy per second, so it does more work, so by the WoB it should burn faster.

The problem with a more full metalmind burning faster is that unless you are no longer gaining anything from the spiritual world there comes a point where you are losing power which is in direct contrast to the concept of compounding being net positive.  

If you have seconds of 2x speed stored for 65,536 seconds then you have 3x speed for 32,768 and 4x speed for 16,384 seconds... all the way down to 18x speed for 1 second.  

Take that attribute storage and put it into a flake of steel only capable of being burnt typically over 1 second.

Now place it in a chunk of steel that would burn over 10 seconds.

Do the same in a chunk of steel that would burn over 1 minute. 

And finally an hour.  

How fast do you think each would allow the speedster to run and for how long?  

Are we wasting attribute in any of these?  I would genuinely love to see thoughts from @Frustration@therunner, @IlstrawberrySeed and @Trusk'our as well. 

 

I don't mean to be infuriating and make anyone feel like they are talking into a wall but I think if we all use the same set of storage and speak on the same sized metalminds we could show the different ideas in a formulated way and see where the differences are... at least for the poor fool that I am being unable to keep formulas straight in my own brain.  

I would personally imagine that the smaller the metalmind the more ludicrous speeds this speedster could generate from burning alone.  I don't know that it is 10x more or whatever compounded as I agree the idea of burning the bands giving Wax Mach4 for 7 days straight sounds like an awful lot.  But this would show us a very small metalmind with a ton of attribute stored in it all the way to a large metalmind with not as much.  

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4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You only get diminishing returns when tapping at a higher rate than you stored, so you can just store the amount that you got from burning and still get the increase in efficiency, while also having the benefit of being able to draw on more attribute if needed.

I don't think that to be the case, I think the diminishing returns are fixed no matter the storage speed. (Rationale being that the Investiture required to resist the restoring effect of spiritweb on the physical self is the always the same)

But let's agree to disagree on this.

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12 minutes ago, therunner said:

I don't think that to be the case, I think the diminishing returns are fixed no matter the storage speed. (Rationale being that the Investiture required to resist the restoring effect of spiritweb on the physical self is the always the same)

But let's agree to disagree on this.

It only has diminishing returns if you tap at a higher rate

Spoiler

Sporkify

This is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

Footnote: This question was asked when fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy had only been seen in Rashek. As such, the term compounding is used purely to reference tapping at a higher rate than can be stored.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126

 

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The problem with a more full metalmind burning faster is that unless you are no longer gaining anything from the spiritual world there comes a point where you are losing power which is in direct contrast to the concept of compounding being net positive.  

If you have seconds of 2x speed stored for 65,536 seconds then you have 3x speed for 32,768 and 4x speed for 16,384 seconds... all the way down to 18x speed for 1 second.  

Take that attribute storage and put it into a flake of steel only capable of being burnt typically over 1 second.

Now place it in a chunk of steel that would burn over 10 seconds.

Do the same in a chunk of steel that would burn over 1 minute. 

And finally an hour.  

How fast do you think each would allow the speedster to run and for how long?  

Are we wasting attribute in any of these?  I would genuinely love to see thoughts from @Frustration@therunner, @IlstrawberrySeed and @Trusk'our as well. 

Remind me to look into it in a few days I'm completely brain dead right now.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

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13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It only has diminishing returns if you tap at a higher rate

  Reveal hidden contents

Sporkify

This is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

Footnote: This question was asked when fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy had only been seen in Rashek. As such, the term compounding is used purely to reference tapping at a higher rate than can be stored.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126

 

 

 

 

Remind me to look into it in a few days I'm completely brain dead right now.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

No rush at all.  I get the no more brain power.  It is in part why I am asking for the folks who have tossed ideas around on compounding to do this.  I hope that with a specific set of parameters for everyone to use I can really compare and see the end results.  

My brain is so extremely full and cosmere thoughts are forced to take a back seat so I will just pop back in and see what everyone thinks later.  

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15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The reason that they burn faster is that you get the power by pulling the investiture through the metals structure, which is why the metal breaks. However feruchemical stores don't do that and burning it just releases it to you, so there would be no reason for it to burn faster as it isn't being drawn through the metals structure.

What? It is. The power comes from Preservations and metalminds acts like an Aon, through which the power comes. It goes through metalmind, which changes what power does, but that power still does work, so the burn rate is increasing by the amount of work done by that power.

Spoiler

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and I'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

If someone aluminum or duralumin burned the Feruchemically charged metals, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Basically the same thing as above, except with aluminum. Aluminum, they would just go away.

Idaho Falls Signing (June 20, 2009)

 

Spoiler

Lyndsey Luther

Ok, last question. It was really difficult coming up with three questions that haven’t been asked already...

Brandon Sanderson

OK... you’re not going to ask me the “what would you ask me” question?

Lyndsey Luther

Not quite...

Brandon Sanderson

OK good, because I hate that one! (laughs)

Lyndsey Luther

My question is if there’s anything that you’ve never been asked that you would like to talk about?

Brandon Sanderson

Oooooh, ok. Hm. That one is so hard! Every time people ask me something like this... What have I never been asked that people should be asking, is basically what the question is? Something that the fans have just missed... They pick up on so much, that it’s hard... I do wonder if, you know… all the magic systems [in my books] are connected and work on some basic fundamental principles, and a lot of people haven’t been asking questions about this. One thing I did get a question on today, and I’ll just talk about this one... they didn’t ask the right question, but I nudged them the right way, is understanding that tie between AonDor [the magic system from Elantris] and Allomancy [Mistborn’s magic system].

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, Compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with Feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a Feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the Feruchemical charge overwrites the Allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel Feruchemy with Allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels Allomancy, to fuel Feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an Allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of Feruchemical power. That’s why Compounding is so powerful.

Open The Fridge Interview (Nov. 16, 2011)

 

17 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The problem with a more full metalmind burning faster is that unless you are no longer gaining anything from the spiritual world there comes a point where you are losing power which is in direct contrast to the concept of compounding being net positive.  

You don't lose a power, as per every unit of investiture within a gram of metalmind you gain x times more, x>1. You always gain more power. 

18 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If you have seconds of 2x speed stored for 65,536 seconds then you have 3x speed for 32,768 and 4x speed for 16,384 seconds... all the way down to 18x speed for 1 second.  

You don't store compressed attributes in metalminds. Compression is happening when you are tapping that metalmind at greater speed than stored. What you have in your metalminds is 50% speed per 1h stored for 6h for example. This is some z units of investiture. That z unit is stored in y grams of metals. So you have z/y. You will always gain investiture in compounding as that is a multiplier x, x>1.

22 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Take that attribute storage and put it into a flake of steel only capable of being burnt typically over 1 second.

That is where we don't understand each other. In my opinion time to burn metalminds depends on the amount of investiture in it. So you can't just say "by 1s". You need a mass of metalmind and amount of investiture in it to determine how fast it would be burnt. You calculate how much investiture per gram is there and multiply it by compounding factor x, x>1. You always gain with it. Mathematically it's impossible for you to lose investiture while compounding. In my opinion it will always be burnt faster than A-metal, but the more investiture in it, the faster it would be burnt as more work is done by the power coming from Preservation.

So if you have 3 g metalmind, storing 3 units of investiture, it gives you 1 u/g in that metalmind, and a burn rate would be t (let's say 1 min per 1g, so 3 min to burn it all). 
If you have 30g metalmind (the same metal), storing 30 units of investiture, it would still have 1 u/g, which would be have still the same burn rate t, but you can burn it 10x longer, as it's 10x bigger metalmind (30 min to burn it all). But the burn rate depends on the unit/gram value (and a metal).

So the same sized metalminds, each with different amounts of investiture in it (just raw investiture) would each be burnt at different speeds. The more investiture in them, the faster they are being burnt. 

You get what I'm saying now? That's at least my understanding of that.

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8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

What? It is. The power comes from Preservations and metalminds acts like an Aon, through which the power comes. It goes through metalmind, which changes what power does, but that power still does work, so the burn rate is increasing by the amount of work done by that power.

  Reveal hidden contents

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and I'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

If someone aluminum or duralumin burned the Feruchemically charged metals, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Basically the same thing as above, except with aluminum. Aluminum, they would just go away.

Idaho Falls Signing (June 20, 2009)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Lyndsey Luther

Ok, last question. It was really difficult coming up with three questions that haven’t been asked already...

Brandon Sanderson

OK... you’re not going to ask me the “what would you ask me” question?

Lyndsey Luther

Not quite...

Brandon Sanderson

OK good, because I hate that one! (laughs)

Lyndsey Luther

My question is if there’s anything that you’ve never been asked that you would like to talk about?

Brandon Sanderson

Oooooh, ok. Hm. That one is so hard! Every time people ask me something like this... What have I never been asked that people should be asking, is basically what the question is? Something that the fans have just missed... They pick up on so much, that it’s hard... I do wonder if, you know… all the magic systems [in my books] are connected and work on some basic fundamental principles, and a lot of people haven’t been asking questions about this. One thing I did get a question on today, and I’ll just talk about this one... they didn’t ask the right question, but I nudged them the right way, is understanding that tie between AonDor [the magic system from Elantris] and Allomancy [Mistborn’s magic system].

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, Compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with Feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a Feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the Feruchemical charge overwrites the Allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel Feruchemy with Allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels Allomancy, to fuel Feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an Allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of Feruchemical power. That’s why Compounding is so powerful.

Open The Fridge Interview (Nov. 16, 2011)

 

Compounding might have a different burn rate than Allomancy would, but metalminds would all have the same burn rate because the excess power isn't coming from Preservation. Just like how metalminds don't break when you tap them.

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16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Compounding might have a different burn rate than Allomancy would, but metalminds would all have the same burn rate because the excess power isn't coming from Preservation. Just like how metalminds don't break when you tap them.

But the power literally comes directly from Preservation. The investiture in metalminds is only a filter for power coming from Preservation. What are you talking about? I don't understand you now. Do you also suggest that metalminds made out of different metals would all burn at the same rate?

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11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But the power literally comes directly from Preservation. The investiture in metalminds is only a filter for power coming from Preservation. What are you talking about? I don't understand you now. Do you also suggest that metalminds made out of different metals would all burn at the same rate?

Oh each metal would, but an ironmind half full and an ironmind completely full would have the same one.

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1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The problem with a more full metalmind burning faster is that unless you are no longer gaining anything from the spiritual world there comes a point where you are losing power which is in direct contrast to the concept of compounding being net positive.  

If you have seconds of 2x speed stored for 65,536 seconds then you have 3x speed for 32,768 and 4x speed for 16,384 seconds... all the way down to 18x speed for 1 second.  

Take that attribute storage and put it into a flake of steel only capable of being burnt typically over 1 second.

Now place it in a chunk of steel that would burn over 10 seconds.

Do the same in a chunk of steel that would burn over 1 minute. 

And finally an hour.  

How fast do you think each would allow the speedster to run and for how long?  

Are we wasting attribute in any of these?  I would genuinely love to see thoughts from @Frustration@therunner, @IlstrawberrySeed and @Trusk'our as well. 

I'm probably just being unobservant again, but could you please clarify your question?

As Michal Scott would say "alright, now could you tell it to me like I'm a five-year-old?"

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10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Oh each metal would, but an ironmind half full and an ironmind completely full would have the same one.

With which I disagree. Both ironminds have the same size, so the full one would provide more investiture per second, thus giving more energy, thus doing more work, and per WoB, more work = faster burn rate.

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7 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I'm probably just being unobservant again, but could you please clarify your question?

As Michal Scott would say "alright, now could you tell it to me like I'm a five-year-old?"

I'm trying to get someone to put some numbers on the line and calculate out their thoughts on how fast a speedster could and should be going while compounding.  

52 minutes ago, alder24 said:

What? It is. The power comes from Preservations and metalminds acts like an Aon, through which the power comes. It goes through metalmind, which changes what power does, but that power still does work, so the burn rate is increasing by the amount of work done by that power.

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Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and I'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

If someone aluminum or duralumin burned the Feruchemically charged metals, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Basically the same thing as above, except with aluminum. Aluminum, they would just go away.

Idaho Falls Signing (June 20, 2009)

 

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Lyndsey Luther

Ok, last question. It was really difficult coming up with three questions that haven’t been asked already...

Brandon Sanderson

OK... you’re not going to ask me the “what would you ask me” question?

Lyndsey Luther

Not quite...

Brandon Sanderson

OK good, because I hate that one! (laughs)

Lyndsey Luther

My question is if there’s anything that you’ve never been asked that you would like to talk about?

Brandon Sanderson

Oooooh, ok. Hm. That one is so hard! Every time people ask me something like this... What have I never been asked that people should be asking, is basically what the question is? Something that the fans have just missed... They pick up on so much, that it’s hard... I do wonder if, you know… all the magic systems [in my books] are connected and work on some basic fundamental principles, and a lot of people haven’t been asking questions about this. One thing I did get a question on today, and I’ll just talk about this one... they didn’t ask the right question, but I nudged them the right way, is understanding that tie between AonDor [the magic system from Elantris] and Allomancy [Mistborn’s magic system].

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, Compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with Feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a Feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the Feruchemical charge overwrites the Allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel Feruchemy with Allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels Allomancy, to fuel Feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an Allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of Feruchemical power. That’s why Compounding is so powerful.

Open The Fridge Interview (Nov. 16, 2011)

 

You don't lose a power, as per every unit of investiture within a gram of metalmind you gain x times more, x>1. You always gain more power. 

You don't store compressed attributes in metalminds. Compression is happening when you are tapping that metalmind at greater speed than stored. What you have in your metalminds is 50% speed per 1h stored for 6h for example. This is some z units of investiture. That z unit is stored in y grams of metals. So you have z/y. You will always gain investiture in compounding as that is a multiplier x, x>1.

That is where we don't understand each other. In my opinion time to burn metalminds depends on the amount of investiture in it. So you can't just say "by 1s". You need a mass of metalmind and amount of investiture in it to determine how fast it would be burnt. You calculate how much investiture per gram is there and multiply it by compounding factor x, x>1. You always gain with it. Mathematically it's impossible for you to lose investiture while compounding. In my opinion it will always be burnt faster than A-metal, but the more investiture in it, the faster it would be burnt as more work is done by the power coming from Preservation.

So if you have 3 g metalmind, storing 3 units of investiture, it gives you 1 u/g in that metalmind, and a burn rate would be t (let's say 1 min per 1g, so 3 min to burn it all). 
If you have 30g metalmind (the same metal), storing 30 units of investiture, it would still have 1 u/g, which would be have still the same burn rate t, but you can burn it 10x longer, as it's 10x bigger metalmind (30 min to burn it all). But the burn rate depends on the unit/gram value (and a metal).

So the same sized metalminds, each with different amounts of investiture in it (just raw investiture) would each be burnt at different speeds. The more investiture in them, the faster they are being burnt. 

You get what I'm saying now? That's at least my understanding of that.

So your speeder has stored 50% speed/hr for 18.2 hours.  That means through typical feruchemy that speedster can run 150% for 18.2 hours afterwords... all the way up to ~950% faster for 1 second through tapping huge amounts (not counting on any diminishing returns here).  

If a gram of steel burns over an hour how much speed is that speedster going to gain when burning a 1 gram metalmind?  For 1 hour of burning you would have to be able to run ~350% faster than normal to break even and have not lost any attribute.  If there is some sort of multiplier on top of that (use The 10x idea) are you moving 3500% faster than normal for that entire hour? 

If that same amount of speed were stored in 1/6 of a gram would the burn rate be faster or slower than the larger one? And how fast would the speedster be traveling and for how long now?  Would it be 6x faster for 1/6th the time? So instead of 3500% for an hour we now move 21000% faster for 10 minutes? 

I feel like you are hinting that the metal would actually burn faster if it is more full.  Would speed not be boosted even more ridiculously with a faster burn?  

If it does not follow this pattern then at what point do you no longer gain any benefits from compounding at all?  Would the bands burn near instantly given how full they were?  Or would Wax just be in danger of melting himself with every step he takes while burning the bands?  

 

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56 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I'm trying to get someone to put some numbers on the line and calculate out their thoughts on how fast a speedster could and should be going while compounding.  

So your speeder has stored 50% speed/hr for 18.2 hours.  That means through typical feruchemy that speedster can run 150% for 18.2 hours afterwords... all the way up to ~950% faster for 1 second through tapping huge amounts (not counting on any diminishing returns here).  

If a gram of steel burns over an hour how much speed is that speedster going to gain when burning a 1 gram metalmind?  For 1 hour of burning you would have to be able to run ~350% faster than normal to break even and have not lost any attribute.  If there is some sort of multiplier on top of that (use The 10x idea) are you moving 3500% faster than normal for that entire hour? 

If that same amount of speed were stored in 1/6 of a gram would the burn rate be faster or slower than the larger one? And how fast would the speedster be traveling and for how long now?  Would it be 6x faster for 1/6th the time? So instead of 3500% for an hour we now move 21000% faster for 10 minutes? 

I feel like you are hinting that the metal would actually burn faster if it is more full.  Would speed not be boosted even more ridiculously with a faster burn?  

If it does not follow this pattern then at what point do you no longer gain any benefits from compounding at all?  Would the bands burn near instantly given how full they were?  Or would Wax just be in danger of melting himself with every step he takes while burning the bands?  

 

I'm going to be blunt, I'm very pleased that you value my opinion enough to actually ask me directly, but I don't think that it's possible to try and calculate Feruchemical potential when we don't even know the rate of loss for Feruchemy, how much Investiture can go into Metalminds of different sizes, and when we don't know the difference in the Investiture between an Allomancer burning a Metal and a Feruchemist storing (for Compounding purposes).

Any conclusion involving specific numbers we come up with at the moment will almost certainly be wrong since we don't know how to properly solve the problems at this time.

However, we might be able to get a general idea of Feruchemical steel's limits by looking at actual examples in the books, so starting there would be our best bet.

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6 hours ago, alder24 said:

With which I disagree. Both ironminds have the same size, so the full one would provide more investiture per second, thus giving more energy, thus doing more work, and per WoB, more work = faster burn rate.

That power isn't coming from Preservation though, and thus is not breaking apart the metal. Because the metal itself is not giving the additional power, the work that the metal itself is doing in each case is the same.

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2 hours ago, Frustration said:

That power isn't coming from Preservation though, and thus is not breaking apart the metal. Because the metal itself is not giving the additional power, the work that the metal itself is doing in each case is the same.

Ah, I think this is where we have different understanding.

Me @alder24 (if I understand them correctly) interpret that in burning of metalmind the attribute gets consumed too, and the power released is only the power from allomancy. Since then total power released should be ~10x to what was stored and allomancy can provide only fixed amount of power to given Metalborn, then you must have variable burn rate depending on the charge in metalmind.

Whereas you (again if I understand correctly) come at it from angle that when you burn metalmind you get back the attribute stored in some amount of metal + allomantic power.

Is this understanding correct?

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So I was going to answer yesterday, but then I realized that there is a WoB that seriously threatens my understanding of Compounding.

Spoiler

yurisses

If Miles stored a very tiny bit of health into a gold bead and then burned it, what would happen? Would he see goldshadows for a time and then obtain Compounded health when reaching the charged part of the bead? Would the bead be evenly charged and deliver only health, no gold shadows, but at a very low rate since only little health was loaded in it? Would the bead be evenly charged and deliver only health, but at a standard rate the user would always get when compounding?

Brandon Sanderson

He'd hack the system to deliver health for a short time instead of doing what it was supposed to do, but only until the small portion of gold Invested with his Investiture ran out.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 4, 2015)

There are two ways of interpreting Brandon's words "only until the small portion of gold Invested with his Investiture ran out"

  1. investiture is equally distributed across whole metalmind and thus gold invested part will ran out only when whole gold is burned away
  2. investiture is not equally distributed across metalmind and takes up a fixed amount of volume, with rest of the metalmind being completely empty, so only invested part is compounded, and after it runs out, rest of gold is burn as a normal allomantic metal.

I think we can all agree that the correct interpretation is the second one. Thus it means that investiture inside a metalmind isn't spread across its whole volume (like a gas in a room) but takes up a fixed amount of space, and investiture density per that space doesn't change (like boxes put in the room, next to each other). Until this point I thought that investiture spreads equally within metalmind, and more invested metalmind is more densely packed with investiture, so burn rate should change. But this is not a case anymore.

Let's say that 50% of strength per 1h stored for 1h is 1 unit of investiture, which takes up 1 nm^3 of space inside a metalmind. Putting more units of attribute into that metalmind will not be put in the same space that is currently occupied, but next to it (like storing boxes in a room by putting them next to each other). This means that during compounding you burn only the invested part of a metalmind, and since that invested part of metalminds is equally invested, the burn rate must be the same. Basically you divide a metalmind into an invested metalmind, and regular metal, after you burn away invested metalmind, you're left with regular metal. The more invested is metalmind, the bigger that invested part is, and the smaller is the regular metal part of that metalmind. Every part of invested metalmind you compound contains the same amount of investiture, so the burn rate can't depend on that.

This can also explain why Inquisitors had such troubles with compounding during Ruin's rule, as they didn't understand the difference between invested part of the metalmind, and not invested, and were burning only non-invested part of the metalminds.

But this also means that a skilled coinshooter can distinguish between the invested part of a metalmind, and non-invested and push only non-invested part of the metalminds without any resistance. Which is weird.

This also means that per metalmind you get a constant amount of attributes per second during compounding.

The burn rate then depends only on a metal, and attribute it stores - so power provided by Preservation does different work depending on which attribute it turns into. Steel speed would be more work intense than a iron weight, so steel would burn faster than iron, but all steelminds burns at the same rate no matter the amount of investiture stored in them, as you burn only invested part which has constant investiture density per metal volume. Possibly a tinmind can have a bit different burn rates as eyesight might require more work than a hearing, so hearing-mind would burn slower than seeing-mind - but that's speculations.

@therunner @Frustration @Tamriel Wolfsbaine Do you understand my messy explanation? Does it make sense?

Now just for you Tamriel, let's put some numbers into it, all are just assumptions as we don't have any knowledge about it for now. So it isn't true, and I agree with @Trusk'our that we can't calculate compounding, as we have 0 values and numbers to go with. But we can assume that we gain a general idea of what is going on. And I will also use a trick.

Let's just assume we have a steelmind that is 1% full. That 1% stores an attribute of value 50%/1h stored for 10h. The burn rate of that metalmind is constant, and is 1%/1min. The compounding multiplier is 10x, so you'll gain 10x the attribute you burn, because of your Allomantic strength. What we can do is during compounding we can store gained attributes back into that metalmind, until it's 100% full and we basically burn away that metalmind gaining even more attribute.

No that's means for every 1 minute of compounding, you burn away 1% of metalmind volume, and gain 10% of attribute that takes up 10% of its volume. So after 1 minute of compounding, 1% of metalmind is burned away, 10% is filled with new attribute, so the whole metalmind is now on 11% full (where 1% is gone). So you need to burn around 9.1% of your metalmind to gain around 91% of attribute, which would take a total space of 100% in that metalmind. 

After 9.1 minutes of compounding, your metalmind is now full, and stores the remaining 91% of its starting volume stores now 50%/1h stored for 910h. You can compound it again, and fully burn away that metalmind, to gain a total of 50%/1h stored for 9100h during 91 minutes of burning that metalmind. You can store it in another bigger metalmind, or if not, this attribute would get compressed and used by your body per every minute of burning. So per every minute of burning, you gain 50%/1h stored for 100h compressed to extreme values to be used in every minute - which I calculated in excel without diminishing returns, would give you a little less than 800% (your base speed 100% + 700% gained from compounding) speed for every 1 minute of compounding. But that's without diminishing returns, with them it would be closer to 500% but that's a guess.

Keep in mind, those are not the real values present in compounding. All of this is assumptions. It's just to give a vague idea of how much attribute you can gain during compounding, while storing it back to a burning metalmind to make it full. So none of this is representative to real compounding.

 

Here is something I don't understand. In books it's explained that "you are half as strong for an hour, and you can be twice as strong for an hour". But using percentages it is be 50% while storing, and 200% while tapping for an hour. But the WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126) says be 50% when storing and 150% when tapping for an hour. So which one is it? I'm I stupid and don't understand something here? The WoB version is additive percentages, while the books descriptions are multiplicative. I assumed the WoB version during those calculations. I'm probably stupid here, but for me those are two different versions.

 

 

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

That power isn't coming from Preservation though, and thus is not breaking apart the metal. Because the metal itself is not giving the additional power, the work that the metal itself is doing in each case is the same.

I don't agree. The power comes from Preservation. There are multitude of WoBs and explanations proving this, power comes from Preservation during compounding as this is just like a regular Allomancy, and regular Allomancy is fueled by Preservation. So power comes from Preservation, is filtered by a metal and attribute stored in it, and turned into that attribute. And that is the work I was talking about, the power does a work, turning into attribute, more demanding attribute, more work is done, faster the burn rate. Like weight vs speed. Likely nicrosilminds would be the fastes to burned, followed by chromium, duralumin and aluminum.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Me @alder24 (if I understand them correctly) interpret that in burning of metalmind the attribute gets consumed too, and the power released is only the power from allomancy

Yes, that's what I think, metalmind and attribute it stores is burned away and lost. All you get comes from Preservation's power.

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50 minutes ago, alder24 said:

So I was going to answer yesterday, but then I realized that there is a WoB that seriously threatens my understanding of Compounding.

  Hide contents

yurisses

If Miles stored a very tiny bit of health into a gold bead and then burned it, what would happen? Would he see goldshadows for a time and then obtain Compounded health when reaching the charged part of the bead? Would the bead be evenly charged and deliver only health, no gold shadows, but at a very low rate since only little health was loaded in it? Would the bead be evenly charged and deliver only health, but at a standard rate the user would always get when compounding?

Brandon Sanderson

He'd hack the system to deliver health for a short time instead of doing what it was supposed to do, but only until the small portion of gold Invested with his Investiture ran out.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 4, 2015)

There are two ways of interpreting Brandon's words "only until the small portion of gold Invested with his Investiture ran out"

  1. investiture is equally distributed across whole metalmind and thus gold invested part will ran out only when whole gold is burned away
  2. investiture is not equally distributed across metalmind and takes up a fixed amount of volume, with rest of the metalmind being completely empty, so only invested part is compounded, and after it runs out, rest of gold is burn as a normal allomantic metal.

I think we can all agree that the correct interpretation is the second one. Thus it means that investiture inside a metalmind isn't spread across its whole volume (like a gas in a room) but takes up a fixed amount of space, and investiture density per that space doesn't change (like boxes put in the room, next to each other). Until this point I thought that investiture spreads equally within metalmind, and more invested metalmind is more densely packed with investiture, so burn rate should change. But this is not a case anymore.

Let's say that 50% of strength per 1h stored for 1h is 1 unit of investiture, which takes up 1 nm^3 of space inside a metalmind. Putting more units of attribute into that metalmind will not be put in the same space that is currently occupied, but next to it (like storing boxes in a room by putting them next to each other). This means that during compounding you burn only the invested part of a metalmind, and since that invested part of metalminds is equally invested, the burn rate must be the same. Basically you divide a metalmind into an invested metalmind, and regular metal, after you burn away invested metalmind, you're left with regular metal. The more invested is metalmind, the bigger that invested part is, and the smaller is the regular metal part of that metalmind. Every part of invested metalmind you compound contains the same amount of investiture, so the burn rate can't depend on that.

This can also explain why Inquisitors had such troubles with compounding during Ruin's rule, as they didn't understand the difference between invested part of the metalmind, and not invested, and were burning only non-invested part of the metalminds.

But this also means that a skilled coinshooter can distinguish between the invested part of a metalmind, and non-invested and push only non-invested part of the metalminds without any resistance. Which is weird.

This also means that per metalmind you get a constant amount of attributes per second during compounding.

The burn rate then depends only on a metal, and attribute it stores - so power provided by Preservation does different work depending on which attribute it turns into. Steel speed would be more work intense than a iron weight, so steel would burn faster than iron, but all steelminds burns at the same rate no matter the amount of investiture stored in them, as you burn only invested part which has constant investiture density per metal volume. Possibly a tinmind can have a bit different burn rates as eyesight might require more work than a hearing, so hearing-mind would burn slower than seeing-mind - but that's speculations.

@therunner @Frustration @Tamriel Wolfsbaine Do you understand my messy explanation? Does it make sense?

Now just for you Tamriel, let's put some numbers into it, all are just assumptions as we don't have any knowledge about it for now. So it isn't true, and I agree with @Trusk'our that we can't calculate compounding, as we have 0 values and numbers to go with. But we can assume that we gain a general idea of what is going on. And I will also use a trick.

Let's just assume we have a steelmind that is 1% full. That 1% stores an attribute of value 50%/1h stored for 10h. The burn rate of that metalmind is constant, and is 1%/1min. The compounding multiplier is 10x, so you'll gain 10x the attribute you burn, because of your Allomantic strength. What we can do is during compounding we can store gained attributes back into that metalmind, until it's 100% full and we basically burn away that metalmind gaining even more attribute.

No that's means for every 1 minute of compounding, you burn away 1% of metalmind volume, and gain 10% of attribute that takes up 10% of its volume. So after 1 minute of compounding, 1% of metalmind is burned away, 10% is filled with new attribute, so the whole metalmind is now on 11% full (where 1% is gone). So you need to burn around 9.1% of your metalmind to gain around 91% of attribute, which would take a total space of 100% in that metalmind. 

After 9.1 minutes of compounding, your metalmind is now full, and stores the remaining 91% of its starting volume stores now 50%/1h stored for 910h. You can compound it again, and fully burn away that metalmind, to gain a total of 50%/1h stored for 9100h during 91 minutes of burning that metalmind. You can store it in another bigger metalmind, or if not, this attribute would get compressed and used by your body per every minute of burning. So per every minute of burning, you gain 50%/1h stored for 100h compressed to extreme values to be used in every minute - which I calculated in excel without diminishing returns, would give you a little less than 800% (your base speed 100% + 700% gained from compounding) speed for every 1 minute of compounding. But that's without diminishing returns, with them it would be closer to 500% but that's a guess.

Keep in mind, those are not the real values present in compounding. All of this is assumptions. It's just to give a vague idea of how much attribute you can gain during compounding, while storing it back to a burning metalmind to make it full. So none of this is representative to real compounding.

 

Here is something I don't understand. In books it's explained that "you are half as strong for an hour, and you can be twice as strong for an hour". But using percentages it is be 50% while storing, and 200% while tapping for an hour. But the WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126) says be 50% when storing and 150% when tapping for an hour. So which one is it? I'm I stupid and don't understand something here? The WoB version is additive percentages, while the books descriptions are multiplicative. I assumed the WoB version during those calculations. I'm probably stupid here, but for me those are two different versions.

 

 

I don't agree. The power comes from Preservation. There are multitude of WoBs and explanations proving this, power comes from Preservation during compounding as this is just like a regular Allomancy, and regular Allomancy is fueled by Preservation. So power comes from Preservation, is filtered by a metal and attribute stored in it, and turned into that attribute. And that is the work I was talking about, the power does a work, turning into attribute, more demanding attribute, more work is done, faster the burn rate. Like weight vs speed. Likely nicrosilminds would be the fastes to burned, followed by chromium, duralumin and aluminum.

Yes, that's what I think, metalmind and attribute it stores is burned away and lost. All you get comes from Preservation's power.

I am catching on to your thoughts on compounding... except the fullness of a metalmind but that is besides the point.  We have only a single instance of a metalmind being described as full and depending on what math you use it is disgusting. 

If we have Marasi as a top female sprinter at 21mph she would have to be moving 36.5x faster than her fastest to break mach 1.  If she were running for 2 seconds then what math do we use to think about just how full those bracers had to be?  

Would it be 2^36.5 = 97billion seconds worth of 2x speed or would it be 2^73 = 9.4447e+23 seconds worth of 50% speed stored? I assume this matters only in the case of compounding as it would not suffer from the same level of diminishing returns. (I was under the impression that there were no diminishing returns when you burnt the metal instead)

I mean as far as numbers go something happened with the bands that allowed her to do what she did and they are among the few (perhaps the only) metalminds described as truly full.  Perhaps it wasn't full with strictly mortal speed stored but if compounding could allow a metalmind to get that full it would give some thought about how dangerous a fullborn is.  If that much attribute can be stored in 1/16 of the bands then starting with a sliver of metal and filling it to start the compounding process it should be feasible to be able to extend out the idea that all attributes could be compounded to those levels. If that is true then even a tiny portion metalminds that densely filled with attribute could be used for a long long time increasing ones attributes far beyond what shardplate could hope to offer a radiant.  

Trying to tie it back to the discussion I am just confused if I am grossly overestimating the power of compounding and being a fullborn or not.  

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38 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I am catching on to your thoughts on compounding... except the fullness of a metalmind but that is besides the point.  We have only a single instance of a metalmind being described as full and depending on what math you use it is disgusting. 

If we have Marasi as a top female sprinter at 21mph she would have to be moving 36.5x faster than her fastest to break mach 1.  If she were running for 2 seconds then what math do we use to think about just how full those bracers had to be?  

Would it be 2^36.5 = 97billion seconds worth of 2x speed or would it be 2^73 = 9.4447e+23 seconds worth of 50% speed stored? I assume this matters only in the case of compounding as it would not suffer from the same level of diminishing returns. (I was under the impression that there were no diminishing returns when you burnt the metal instead)

I mean as far as numbers go something happened with the bands that allowed her to do what she did and they are among the few (perhaps the only) metalminds described as truly full.  Perhaps it wasn't full with strictly mortal speed stored but if compounding could allow a metalmind to get that full it would give some thought about how dangerous a fullborn is.  If that much attribute can be stored in 1/16 of the bands then starting with a sliver of metal and filling it to start the compounding process it should be feasible to be able to extend out the idea that all attributes could be compounded to those levels. If that is true then even a tiny portion metalminds that densely filled with attribute could be used for a long long time increasing ones attributes far beyond what shardplate could hope to offer a radiant.  

Trying to tie it back to the discussion I am just confused if I am grossly overestimating the power of compounding and being a fullborn or not.  

Oh boy, my poor brain.

So we need to know how was the attribute stored in the Bands to determinate how much Marasi did used. Was it 80% of speed per 1h? 50%? We don't know. Becasue it does matter when tapping at that high rate, as attribute is compressed. And deminishing returns are very important here, we can't just leave them out of this. And we don't know if all metals in the Bands were equal size. We can't really estimate how much speed was in the Bands as there is too many unknown values, and the steelmind was only mostly drained, not fully. You could reach Mach 1 with any amount of stored attribute, but with very small amounts it would last for such short time, that you wouldn't be able to move a muscle, so not really useful.

For math, I won't try to do it, the best example was already done here by @therunner, so let's use his math to answer your question.

On 3.03.2023 at 9:39 PM, therunner said:

In fact, per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126) the feruchemy is increasingly inefficient the harder you tap . If we look at example of F-steel (slightly borrowing from early post in Scadrial vs Roshar post RoW),  and try to figure out what penalties would be for n-fold tapping speed. I also assume that 100% speed for movement (running, walking etc.) is 9m/s, as that is roughly what above average person can sustain for a 100 meter dash.

We assume that the increasing tapping is not getting progressively difficult, just equally difficult. At 2x tapping we get 5/6 inefficiency, at 3x we get 1/2 inefficiency, ratio of these is 3/5, so then in the most optimistic scenario the penalty when tapping n-fold is 5/6(3/5)^(n-1). If I had 100 hours of 100% speed stored the time I would get out when tapping n-fold would be 100/n *5/6 * (3/5)^(n-1), so

  1. Tapping at 10x speeds, to get total of 10+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*11 = 99 m/s), the time would 0.05 hours = 3 minutes (with original store being 100% (9m/s) speed for 100 hours)
  2. Tapping at 20x speeds, to get total of 20+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*21 = 189 m/s), the time would be 0.00015 hours = 0.5 second
  3. Tapping at 30x speeds, to get total of 30+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*31 = 279 m/s), the time would be 6*10^(-7) hours = 0.0022 second = 22 ms
  4. Tapping at 40x speeds, to get total of 35+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*41 = 369 m/s, our first sonic speed!), the time would be 0.00001 second = 0.1 ms
     

Now, in light of the fact that Fullborn can have at most ~100 000 months of any given attribute at his person at a time (however with each metalmind weighting around 3 kilograms) then Fullborn has at most 30*24*100000 = 72 000 000 hours of 100% speed stored, which would enable them to move at mildly sonic speed for about ~72 seconds. Higher Machs would he exponentially more difficult to achieve, and with those stores would be basically impossible to sustain for more than a milisecond.

So by using this equation: x/n *5/6 * (3/5)^(n-1) = t , where x is the amount of stored attribute, n is the tapping rate (40 for Mach 1, base speed is 9m/s), and t is the time you would get, and reversing it to find x, I calculated that you would need 11 969 333,49 hours (which is 43*10^9 seconds) of 100% speed stored per every hour, to be able to move at Mach 1 for 2 seconds. Does it answer your question? I hope I calculated it correctly.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I am catching on to your thoughts on compounding... except the fullness of a metalmind but that is besides the point.

What do you not understand with my explanation? I can try explaining it again.

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11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Oh boy, my poor brain.

So we need to know how was the attribute stored in the Bands to determinate how much Marasi did used. Was it 80% of speed per 1h? 50%? We don't know. Becasue it does matter when tapping at that high rate, as attribute is compressed. And deminishing returns are very important here, we can't just leave them out of this. And we don't know if all metals in the Bands were equal size. We can't really estimate how much speed was in the Bands as there is too many unknown values, and the steelmind was only mostly drained, not fully. You could reach Mach 1 with any amount of stored attribute, but with very small amounts it would last for such short time, that you wouldn't be able to move a muscle, so not really useful.

For math, I won't try to do it, the best example was already done here by @therunner, so let's use his math to answer your question.

So by using this equation: x/n *5/6 * (3/5)^(n-1) = t , where x is the amount of stored attribute, n is the tapping rate (40 for Mach 1, base speed is 9m/s), and t is the time you would get, and reversing it to find x, I calculated that you would need 11 969 333,49 hours (which is 43*10^9 seconds) of 100% speed stored per every hour, to be able to move at Mach 1 for 2 seconds. Does it answer your question? I hope I calculated it correctly.

What do you not understand with my explanation? I can try explaining it again.

I think the runner did a pretty good job of summarizing what is stored.   And I agree with the time and that you would lose a ton of it were you to tap it at once.  

I guess my issue is that when capable of compounding that you don't suffer those same diminishing returns.  

The entire idea of feruchemy is that it is net neutral (actually could be argued that it is net negative when tapping at high high rates) but allomancy makes it net positive.  

Is there any point where burning it allomantically still loses so much of that stored attribute to make even the compounding net negative?  100,000 months of speed stored into a metalmind and compounded should no longer suffer the massive diminishing returns otherwise it would be net negative.  It now gets compressed and used at whatever rate that it burns.  If that 100,000 months of speed were to be burned over a day or two or 7 wouldn't it then be split out and even based on the time to burn that metalmind?  And then, according to the books, you would also gain some form of bonus as that ludicrous amount of attribute gets fueled further from the spiritual realm via allomantic power burning it to access it?  

I genuinely might just be going full retard on this whole compounding thing.  I should honestly just stick to my day job. I figure if compounding is the attribute in a metal being fed by allomancy and multiplied by that then there would be some theoretical break points.  

With no diminishing returns thanks to allomancy feeding it we either end up with one of two things. Allomancy offering a flat rate dispite what is stored, which can very easily turn that storage net negative if a high amount was stored. Or allomancy bypassing the need to tap and compress traits which would then make your limiting timeline be the metalmind size and burn rate.  

I think where I am missing it is this third idea that could be feruchemical power still being compressed while burning it and suffering from large diminishing returns due to it acting as if that metalmind was tapped.  That is where I feel like the slider exists where everyone could speculate.

My mind hoped it would be simple a or b but it is likely some super convoluted formula that Brandon's team is trying to make up in the background to explain his coolest scenes.  

If his process is to write the scene and then have them make it so there is just enough power there to do cool thing X... then the compounding rules are all over the place and the existence of the bands being as full as they are kind of weakens the system imo.  Miles compounding health was never an issue for my brain to try to understand.  Only when I saw Mach1+ used for what could have been 2 seconds or longer did I actually have my brain break at the potential speed held by the bands if they were burnt allomantically. 

I will probably just hang out and wait to keep reading future books if and when compounding gets seen more.  Because I can't think of a way that the bands burnt allomantically can be even slightly balanced by other systems and stay net positive. 

In my mind the fight never even really starts between a fullborn and a radiant. Plate would crumble as simply as an egg shell under the hand and leeching would eventually seal the deal.  Minus speed... yeah maybe but every single metal does that.  Reach a hand into the plate and grab hold of the radiant and just turn up the heat and bake them inside their plate... eventually the stormlight will run out.  

 

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