Fullborn V.S. 5th Ideal Windrunners

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

47 minutes ago, therunner said:

The only advantage there is that Shardplate wound would not show on Electrum shadow.

I would be really interested in a wob for this.  I assume if your spiritual self gets severed your shadow would show that as you are staring at your future spiritual self.  Suddenly not having a leg in a shadow would register.  

 

49 minutes ago, therunner said:

All the feats of pewter in the books are consistent with someone 'just' being capable of non-stop sprinting at limit of human capability, or very slightly beyond.

Pewter is pretty potent.  Vin vaults over Ham and his staff in a single jump.  The sprinting example is noticeably faster than a normal human. Described as a galloping horse. If you take the low end of galloping horses and the high end of collegiate sprinters the pewter enhanced mistborn should still be moving faster than Usain Bolt.  The example showed us 2 mistborn running for 12 hours straight and arriving at the exact same time to their destination.  I would say that feat only speaks for the slowest speed between the two as 12 hours of running even 1mph separate speed would leave a 20-30 minute gap in arrival time for them. 

We see the windrunner squires practice lashing themselves slightly to increase speed and we have Wax who carried himself at 70% weight most of the time because it makes him quicker and lighter on his feet... and he gains no strength benefit from that.  Take F pewter and A pewter combined with F iron and even without F steel I think you would have an insanely quick fullborn. Pulse bendalloy as well and you have this person who is blinking sporadically on the battlefield while closing distance at an alarming rate.  

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Also I wonder if using metalmind as shield would 'damage' the Investiture in them in some way. For example half-shards can only take a few hits, and so can Shardplate, so I would assume that getting hit by Shardblade would damage the metalmind somehow.

There is a large difference in a sheet of iron and shard plate.  As far as I have seen plate cracks where iron would be more likely to bend.  

Hitting plate with a shardblade does not leech investiture from the plate.  Cracks form and investiture in the form of light flows out of the plate.  Shardplate would likely be better if it acted less brittle and bend instead of cracking. For this reason a suit of armor filled with biochromatic breath, or in this case pieces of armor made from metalminds, would resist more strikes from the shardblade than shard plate does as they won't crack and leak out their investiture.  

But... the armor would be more vulnerable to bending and becoming an issue as far as mobility goes but having your spren become a blunt weapon to damage a metal suit would be far more useful than keeping it a sword in this case.  

 

I think in the case of projectiles bendalloy bubbles are overlooked slightly in their usefulness.  A handful of metal shot tossed out in front of a bendalloy bubble would allow the fullborn to selectively choose which pieces to shove against and which ones to ignore. 

It seems that pushes and pulls become stronger based on the weight differences between the anchors.  I think F iron in this case can certainly create the difference between shardplate weight and tip the scales the other direction.  

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I wonder if it would be possible to attach Reverse Lashings to gemstones, similar to Illusions. If so, that would allow Windrunner to partially immobilize Fullborn by trapping him between two Reverse Lashings.

Certainly, CC is the best option for all radiant types. Can connection to the laws of physics be stored and then simply ignore the lashings completely?  Would this trick allow a windrunner to immobilize a Bondsmith?  

[Trusk'our]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I'd say possibly yes, though I don't think enhanced pewter improves speed that much. All the feats of pewter in the books are consistent with someone 'just' being capable of non-stop sprinting at limit of human capability, or very slightly beyond.
Similarly, Elend is not described as faster then Vin, despite being Lerasium Mistborn, and demonstrably more powerful in other ways.

So I think Speedwise, Radiant in Plate actually has advantage now.

I don't know. Allomantic pewter allowed Vin to keep up with a running horse, which can run anywhere between 30-40 Mph. on average, while the fastest humans typically only can run up to 27.5 miles an hour. And Vin isn't even a good runner, as she mentions in TFE when she and Kel try to run to their army to save it somehow.

Plus, the effect is only enhanced by the Fullborn's nicrosil (if it works that way).

Now, we don't have a good reference for Plate's exact enhancement to speed yet, so I'll concede the point for now.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Would F-Iron help? It would ensure that you cannot really push the metals away (as Fullborn is heavier), however it would not make the pushes/pulls stronger as far as I understand it.

It would let them put more force into their ranged attacks (or just use bigger projectiles), like when Wax used his Feruchemy to help shoot more powerfully at the Chimera in SoS. And even if most of them miss, they'll probably still be able to get a few hits in over the course of the fight if the Fullborn is competent.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

The only advantage there is that Shardplate wound would not show on Electrum shadow.

I think that you're thinking of aluminum and Allomantic Atium. Allomantic electrum would be harder to use as it only tells your own future, but it would still be useful if trained with (especially since the Fullborn has Feruchemical zinc).

Actually, as a side note, would Allomantic electrum be better at countering aluminum weapons than Atium, since you still see your own future as it would be affected by said aluminum weapon?

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Words of Radiance San Francisco signing - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Questioner

Would aluminum give an atium shadow? Like if someone threw an aluminum spear?

Brandon Sanderson

The aluminum would not give an atium shadow. Good question.

 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

True that would help, though it might take too much time.

Allomantic duralumin can make the process of metabolizing metals nearly instantaneous. So as long as the Fullborn has a ready supply of metal, I don't know that time constraints would be a serious issue.

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Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

Questioner

What happens if you burn duralumin while Compounding?

Brandon Sanderson

Duralumin while Compounding. So, what duralumin does is it burns out of all of your metal in one burst. So it doesn't necessarily gain you power, it makes it all happen at the same time. The same thing would happen.

Questioner

Could you turn into a baby?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you could totally turn into a baby. That is within the power of using that, doing <health wrong>, yeah you could totally... You'd be really dangerous.

Questioner

But it wouldn't really do much?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh it would have explosive... it does things really fast. That's what it does. Yes you could achieve very powerful sudden effects through that. It'd be scary. Controlling it can be dangerous, regardless of which metal you use.

 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Also I wonder if using metalmind as shield would 'damage' the Investiture in them in some way. For example half-shards can only take a few hits, and so can Shardplate, so I would assume that getting hit by Shardblade would damage the metalmind somehow.

I would assume so as well. A Metalmind probably gets drained a bit at the very least. I imagine it would be like Roshar's Half-Shards, where the Metalminds may end up breaking after two, maybe three hits.

So while they might offer some protection, they wouldn't offer invincibility.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Also, Plate would shield Radiant from being leeched. So either Fullborn would have to leech the spren comprising plate enough to damage them, or they would have to break plate first. Both of these while in melee range of Shardblade.

My current headcannon is that you can Leech even uncracked Shardplate just by touching it, but we just don't have any examples of Leeching Plate at all, other than WoB stating Leeching powers being able to affect most Invested systems.

So, yeah, we can't really know for certain how they would interact yet.

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FanX 2021 (Sept. 18, 2021)

Questioner

Can Leechers leech on other types of Investiture across the cosmere? And how do people power their powers on worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

So, Scadrians can use metal from other worlds. The metal is considered a facilitator, a key for reaching the Spiritual Realm, and distance doesn't matter for the Spiritual Realm. All of the Allomantic powers, Leechers in particular, they do have an influence with the other magic systems. Even as simple as a Shardblade would be very difficult, near impossible to push or pull, because of the level of Investiture it has. Copperclouds have some interesting ramifications, as well as Seekers have interesting ramifications, and Leechers would work on other magic systems as well. It is a little tricky how it interfaces sometimes, but it'll generally do what you're expecting it to do.

 

[Immortal Platypus]

14 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I don't know. Allomantic pewter allowed Vin to keep up with a running horse, which can run anywhere between 30-40 Mph. on average, while the fastest humans typically only can run up to 27.5 miles an hour. And Vin isn't even a good runner, as she mentions in TFE when she and Kel try to run to their army to save it somehow.

to be fair, on Scadrial the horses are probably weaker and slower from the ashmounts and stuff like that.

[Trusk'our]

3 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

to be fair, on Scadrial the horses are probably weaker and slower from the ashmounts and stuff like that.

Probably true. And then, a human isn't even getting a 50% increase in speed while flaring, but that's still very useful in a fight.

Plus, we typically assume that a Fullborn can compound nicrosil to increase their Allomantic powers, so they would be much, much faster than a normal Pewterarm.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Immortal Platypus]

3 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Probably true. And then, a human isn't even getting a 50% increase in speed while flaring, but that's still very useful in a fight.

Plus, we typically assume that a Fullborn can compound nicrosil to increase their Allomantic powers, so they would be much, much faster than a normal Pewterarm.

true, but Stormlight increases speed and reactions at least somewhat right? so that would close to balance out a normal Pewterarm even while flaring, plus Rosharans have longer legs. And then you add Plate and so KR probably has speed advantage.

[Wits instant noodles]

16 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

to be fair, on Scadrial the horses are probably weaker and slower from the ashmounts and stuff like that.

On 12/5/2022 at 1:42 PM, Frustration said:

Considering that humans and plants of the time were so much weaker it would be odd if horses weren't.

 

But let's assume that you are correct about horses being the same. Felise is about an hour away from Luthadel, so 20 miles. In ten minutes that's only 120 mph(20*6). Windrunners routinely break 200mph, not counting the fact that Rosharan miles are longer.

this is from the mistborn vs windrunners and this is assuming nobles keep good care of there horses as they have the money and resources to keep them in good shape. so presumably its slower than this but thats still pretty good speed.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Wits instant noodles

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

to be fair, on Scadrial the horses are probably weaker and slower from the ashmounts and stuff like that.

 

1 minute ago, Trusk'our said:

Probably true. And then, a human isn't even getting a 50% increase in speed while flaring, but that's still very useful in a fight.

Plus, we typically assume that a Fullborn can compound nicrosil to increase their Allomantic powers, so they would be much, much faster than a normal Pewterarm.

Perhaps a galloping horse is slower on Scadrial, however this would be more than offset by the gravitational differences in growing up and adapting on Roshar vs Scadrial.  If you put the Rosharan on Scadrial or the Scadrian on Roshar between the gravitational pull and the oxygen discrepancies advantages go to Scadrial each time. 

 

1 minute ago, Being of Cacophony said:

true, but Stormlight increases speed and reactions at least somewhat right? so that would close to balance out a normal Pewterarm even while flaring, plus Rosharans have longer legs. And then you add Plate and so KR probably has speed advantage.

Stormlight perfects the body.  If a person is already using 90% of their functional limit they would see a 10% increase.  Someone who doesn't train like Shallan can see a bigger increase in strength % wise to her initial compared to Kaladin because her functional ability is untrained.  

The windrunner has the advantage of partial lashings to help them run slightly faster but even when bridge 4 was running with stormlight in their lungs I don't think it measures up to be Usain Bolt speeds sustained for a mile+ like we see with pewter. Plus f iron would offer the same advantage to the fullborn.  

 

Ranged surges are what the windrunner needs to rely on. Entering melee range is so far favored in the fullborns side that all of the frustration a person can feel in mistborn vs endless healing and a shardblade argument is sort of flipped on its head here. It all comes down to if a shardblade can stop F gold.  F gold is in the same league as stormlight healing and compounding it should bring it slightly ahead... certainly with one being able to leech and the other unable to leech. 

[Trusk'our]

10 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

true, but Stormlight increases speed and reactions at least somewhat right? so that would close to balance out a normal Pewterarm even while flaring, plus Rosharans have longer legs. And then you add Plate and so KR probably has speed advantage.

True, I recall it being like Allomantic pewter in its speed increasement. I'll have to go back and look at Sigzil's tests in OB again to see how much of a difference Stormlight makes though, as it's been a while since I last read it.

I'd like to see in later Mistborn books if nicrosil Feruchemy is ever used to enhance Allomantic pewter, and see measurments for Shardplate speed in future SA books. Then we'd know for sure how much it would help the Fullborn.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Immortal Platypus]

that would be awesome, we really need some of these. And, keep in mind, Roshar's miles are larger than Scadrial's miles

[Trusk'our]

1 minute ago, Being of Cacophony said:

that would be awesome, we really need some of these. And, keep in mind, Roshar's miles are larger than Scadrial's miles

SHOOT. Forgot about that.

To the Coppermind Wiki it is!

[therunner]

1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Stormlight perfects the body.  If a person is already using 90% of their functional limit they would see a 10% increase.  Someone who doesn't train like Shallan can see a bigger increase in strength % wise to her initial compared to Kaladin because her functional ability is untrained.  

The windrunner has the advantage of partial lashings to help them run slightly faster but even when bridge 4 was running with stormlight in their lungs I don't think it measures up to be Usain Bolt speeds sustained for a mile+ like we see with pewter. Plus f iron would offer the same advantage to the fullborn. 

There is also the plate, which does increase speed of wearer (both reaction speed and movement).
I think if nicrosil compoudning strengthening allomancy is possible that Fullborn might be faster than Radiant in plate, however since Elend does not seem to be faster then Vin, I doubt that even that would help.
Without Nicrosil compounding working like that, Fullborn will be a bit slower movement wise.

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Ranged surges are what the windrunner needs to rely on. Entering melee range is so far favored in the fullborns side that all of the frustration a person can feel in mistborn vs endless healing and a shardblade argument is sort of flipped on its head here. It all comes down to if a shardblade can stop F gold.  F gold is in the same league as stormlight healing and compounding it should bring it slightly ahead... certainly with one being able to leech and the other unable to leech. 

Shardblade would waste more F-Gold then most other attacks, so it would be viable strategy.
And if severing on all three realms would also remove link to metalminds, then strike to spine is certain death even for Fullborn.
 

35 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I think that you're thinking of aluminum and Allomantic Atium. Allomantic electrum would be harder to use as it only tells your own future, but it would still be useful if trained with (especially since the Fullborn has Feruchemical zinc).

Actually, as a side note, would Allomantic electrum be better at countering aluminum weapons than Atium, since you still see your own future as it would be affected by said aluminum weapon?

No, I did mean A-Electrum. Electrum shadow shows what can happen to you in future, but Shardblade at first does not cut physical body, so that might not show up on the shadow.

I think it might be actually? Unless it would render such future invisible to the sight completely (similar to what Renarin does).

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Allomantic duralumin can make the process of metabolizing metals nearly instantaneous. So as long as the Fullborn has a ready supply of metal, I don't know that time constraints would be a serious issue.

A-Duralumin and compounding is apparently dangerous to do, so that might not be smart idea for Fullborn.
And even then, we don't know how much it takes to fill up metalmind. It might require multiple cycles, which would take time even if the Fullborn could handle doing it with A-Duralumin.

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I would assume so as well. A Metalmind probably gets drained a bit at the very least. I imagine it would be like Roshar's Half-Shards, where the Metalminds may end up breaking after two, maybe three hits.

So while they might offer some protection, they wouldn't offer invincibility.

That is my logic as well.

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My current headcannon is that you can Leech even uncracked Shardplate just by touching it, but we just don't have any examples of Leeching Plate at all, other than WoB stating Leeching powers being able to affect most Invested systems.

Well you could leech the plate, but you would not leech Radiant underneath.
And since living plate does not require light to be operational, you would not really achieve much?
Maybe you could damage the spren, but that would probably require a lot of Chromium, as neither spren nor Fused seem to fear Larkin, who work along similar lines.
So I think it would not do much to the plate.

[Immortal Platypus]

The coppermind is soooooooooo useful, I love it.  

[Trusk'our]

5 minutes ago, therunner said:

No, I did mean A-Electrum.

Oops. Sorry for assuming you meant something different.

 

6 minutes ago, therunner said:

Electrum shadow shows what can happen to you in future, but Shardblade at first does not cut physical body, so that might not show up on the

Interesting. I had not considered that. Plus, we have WoB stating that you can't sense Emotional Allomancy via A-Atium, so it may well be within the realm of possibility.

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/r/books AMA 2015 - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

dwhitlo1

I was re-reading through Vin's fight with Zane, and I think that her method of killing him might be more complicated than necessary. Here is the strategy I would use to fight a mistborn with atium (assuming I have no atium myself or electrum). First I would use a duralumin enhanced soothing to deaden everything except complacency. I would at the same time use a duralumin enhanced riot to spike their sense of complacency. I would then go for the jugular with a duralumin enhanced pewter slash. I think this strategy has a good chance of victory since atium does not show what is going on inside of you, only what you will physically do. Therefore, your enemy will not see the emotional allomancy coming which gives you a few seconds to work with as he is stunned. By the way, if you do not think complacency is a riotable emotion replace it with love. What do you think? Does my strategy have a chance of success?

Brandon Sanderson

I like this strategy. Thinking outside the proverbial box. I think it has a good chance of succeeding, depending. Remember, emotional Allomancy is NOT mind control. And a duralumin-fueled blast of emotion is going to draw a lot of attention to itself, but will still be stunning. So yes, I'd say this is a valid method of taking on someone with atium.

 

[therunner]

Just now, Trusk'our said:

Oops. Sorry for assuming you meant something different.

No problem, sorry if I seemed curt in my response

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Interesting. I had not considered that. Plus, we have WoB stating that you can't sense Emotional Allomancy via A-Atium, so it may well be within the realm of possibility.

Yeah, I think it was this WoB that led me to that consideration, that both Atium and Electrum only show 'physical' stuff.

More speculatively, we know that aluminum does not show up in A-Atium sight, and that heavily Invested objects don't show for steelsight.
Combined I speculate that such heavily Invested objects would also not show up in A-Atium sight, which would render Atium substantially weaker against Shardblades.
However, that is more of a Wild-mass guess

[Trusk'our]

21 minutes ago, therunner said:

More speculatively, we know that aluminum does not show up in A-Atium sight, and that heavily Invested objects don't show for steelsight.
Combined I speculate that such heavily Invested objects would also not show up in A-Atium sight, which would render Atium substantially weaker against Shardblades.
However, that is more of a Wild-mass guess

That would make sense.

21 minutes ago, therunner said:

Yeah, I think it was this WoB that led me to that consideration, that both Atium and Electrum only show 'physical' stuff.

I wonder if that is because you'd only see a potential future that you'd have been able to experience. Emotional Allomancy can't be sensed through a human's traditional senses, so wouldn't be susceptible to such powers.

So maybe if you were a really skilled A-bronze burner you could sense Emotional Allomancy via A-Atium? That's just a guess though.

[cometaryorbit]

Re speed: the advantage F-Steel would give would be reaction time, not necessarily outright speed. Windrunner flight is incredibly fast with enough Stormlight (they can run ahead of a highstorm, which is 390mph, or about 40% of the speed of sound). Marasi with the Bands is faster than that, but the Bands may be a special case. No one else we've seen use F-Steel goes anywhere near that fast. Even Bleeder in SoS I don't think needs to be over 100mph to do what she does. Wax can chase her and Allomantic flight is likely nore like 60-80mph. TLR might be similar ('far faster than a full pewter flare' but not a blur, and definitely no sonic boom).

3 hours ago, therunner said:

I'd say possibly yes, though I don't think enhanced pewter improves speed that much. All the feats of pewter in the books are consistent with someone 'just' being capable of non-stop sprinting at limit of human capability, or very slightly beyond.
Similarly, Elend is not described as faster then Vin, despite being Lerasium Mistborn, and demonstrably more powerful in other ways..

I think pewter speed is beyond human, but also mostly irrelevant for Elend and Vin, because Steeljumping is faster. Vin says twice as fast as a galloping horse in TFE, so 60-80mph - I doubt Era 1 horses are as specialized for speed as our modern racehorses, so probably more like 60mph. But that's still probably twice as fast as her pewter speed.

4 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

 the Fullborn has more potential tactics and probably (as far as I currently can tell) can bring more raw Investiture to bear. The fight could go either way, depending on the circumstances of the fight

Roshar is vastly higher Investiture than Scadrial. I don't think a Fullborn can remotely operate on that level, short of Bands of Mourning leaking-mist stuff (even TLR doesn't leak mist). And the Bands are *still* less Invested than a Shardblade.

So I'm skeptical of Leeching being *practical* against a Radiant. It would work on Rosharan Investiture, sure, but what seems instant against a few flakes of metal in Wax's stomach might be too long to be relevant for a fight (or take an impractical-to-swallow amount of chromium) against a Radiant full of Light.

Edited March 3, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

True that would help, though it might take too much time. BoM were far less Invested than Shardblade, relatively small, and yet nearly full metalminds. So creating a full body armor might take too much time even with Compounding. I'd say that having a vambrace or two that can resist shardblade makes sense, but anything beyond that gives a lot of leeway to Fullborn.

I know this is a few posts back but I want to find out how many metalminds you think are appropriate?  

The bands are small but being able to compound every metal says that getting the bands to that size would be the hardest part of making them.  

I am a huge sourdough fan and keep a starter rolling all of the time.  I have gotten to a point where I just feed it enough to keep it happy and allow myself to make what I want.  It is always fun when I hand out starter to coworkers and they report back with pictures of it getting out of control.  With starter you mix equal parts starter water and flour.  Every time you refeed it it should triple in size... people learn very quickly that if they aren't baking every single day with it they will have a ton of waste really fast (so I walk them through what we do for maintenance).  

Compounding works the same way except at a rate of 10x that which you burn.  

The limit to compounding is the speed with which you burn your metals and how full they are. 

There is totally a right way to compound and a wrong way to compound.  The wrong way is take a partially full metalmind and burn it hoping to get the power from it.  But the investiture isn't densely enough packed in it to make it worth it.  The right way to compound is to store as much as you possibly can into a metalmind that is the size of a BB.  Then burn that BB and store into something that is 10x the size of that BB.  BBs burn fast so you would get a quick transfer and end with a metalmind packed just as densely but 10x the size of the BB.  If it only took you 10 seconds to burn the last BB then you will be able to store into something 10x larger, keeping it just as densely packed, in just 100 seconds. Duralumin shrinks that down to zero.  

You should safely be able to hold onto a metalmind 10x the size of the bands of mourning and duralumin burn it near instantly to have a metalmind that is 10x more attribute than the bands. 

Brandon makes it clear that this is dangerous but I certainly think a fullborn could easily create a suit of armor and weapon sized metalminds as densely packed with attributes as the bands of mourning in the time it takes a soldier to progress through 5 oaths.

I don't think the question is could they do it... Miles likely had dozens of metalminds spread throughout his body that were packed as near to full as they possibly could be.  I have no doubt if Miles was a fullborn it would be far more dangerous than Rashek.  

Just like sourdough everytime you compound and don't use the attribute in between you are making it so much larger.  

How do you fairly limit a fullborn in the amount of storage they have.  Especially if they are readying themselves for combat.  When we saw Rashek he was the undisputed master of everything and had watched 1000 years worth of generations wither away and die... I doubt he cared about much of anything anymore.  

I guess that just comes down to how prepared are both combatants? Are they both coming to a fight to the death or do they just happen to cross paths while out for a morning jog? Sazed was a scholar and had the stores on him to do what he did... if he were a fullborn he could have spaced that out potentially 10x as long. 

I don't think compounding needs to boast its potential power... but I think tapping metalminds at high rates allow for more power in the alloted time than the compounding.  And I really think the benefit here is that you can tap them that long while burning small portions and refilling all along the way... so long as you have metal on your person you can infinitely loop a high rate of attributes until the metalminds are, themselves gone.  

How many spheres would a windrunner bring to the fight?  If he knew about it I imagine quite a few more than if he was just out for his morning jog.  

Point being, I think there is evidence that if given the same information about the fight and the same length of time to prepare, the fullborn will likely have just as much access to large metalminds (armor sized) as the radiant would have spheres sewn into all of their clothes.

I think the edge likely falls on fullborns side with the exception of being about your normal business expecting no battles.  In that case the standard wallets worth of gems and plate / blade always there likely edges out a feruchemist on a jog with jewelry on... but that fullborn can certainly still compound a ton of attributes for use while its happening and in an arena with preparation time, it would not be outside the realm of possibility that they could craft a decent set of metalmind armor.  

[Immortal Platypus]

So, I was browsing the Coppermind when I came across this that shows that Stormlight does give extra speed.

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By breathing in Stormlight, he gains superhuman strength, speed, agility, durability, stamina, and healing, as long as he has access to Stormlight.

also, his fighting/reactions are enchanced when Syl is with him.

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While his honorspren is present with him, his movements are enhanced by her

and the whole 'can he do vacuum stuff without extra spren,' the answer is yes

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In addition to the Lashings, Kaladin is able to use his Surges to create a pocket of calm within a highstorm. This manifests as a barrier of windspren

It manifests as windspren but is caused by the Surges so he can do it without the windspren

There is probably more to all this stuff but Idon't have time to go look for it.

[therunner]

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think pewter speed is beyond human, but also mostly irrelevant for Elend and Vin, because Steeljumping is faster. Vin says twice as fast as a galloping horse in TFE, so 60-80mph - I doubt Era 1 horses are as specialized for speed as our modern racehorses, so probably more like 60mph. But that's still probably twice as fast as her pewter speed.

I think pewter is at best mildly beyond human. No character ever singles out Pewterarms as being faster then regular people, and the main feature for running is the inability to get tired while on pewter drag.

So I think between Stormlight perfecting, and some minor side-ffect of pewter, it is about equal.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I know this is a few posts back but I want to find out how many metalminds you think are appropriate?  

The bands are small but being able to compound every metal says that getting the bands to that size would be the hardest part of making them. 

So basically that boils down, how much time does Fullborn have to prepare?

Quote

I am a huge sourdough fan and keep a starter rolling all of the time.  I have gotten to a point where I just feed it enough to keep it happy and allow myself to make what I want.  It is always fun when I hand out starter to coworkers and they report back with pictures of it getting out of control.  With starter you mix equal parts starter water and flour.  Every time you refeed it it should triple in size... people learn very quickly that if they aren't baking every single day with it they will have a ton of waste really fast (so I walk them through what we do for maintenance).  

Yeah, but compounding takes active effort and focus and Intent. It is not exactly activity you can passively do.

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The limit to compounding is the speed with which you burn your metals and how full they are. 

There is totally a right way to compound and a wrong way to compound.  The wrong way is take a partially full metalmind and burn it hoping to get the power from it.  But the investiture isn't densely enough packed in it to make it worth it.  The right way to compound is to store as much as you possibly can into a metalmind that is the size of a BB.  Then burn that BB and store into something that is 10x the size of that BB.  BBs burn fast so you would get a quick transfer and end with a metalmind packed just as densely but 10x the size of the BB.  If it only took you 10 seconds to burn the last BB then you will be able to store into something 10x larger, keeping it just as densely packed, in just 100 seconds. Duralumin shrinks that down to zero.  

I agree on the right way to compound (to an extent).
However, that original filling up time is going to be long. Most metalminds are small objects already (earrings, rings, etc.) and they are usually not full. Wax is storing pretty much all the time, and his metalminds are not full (as far as we know), despite him being at 50% almost all the time. So filling that will take a while, days, possibly more.

Then you need to do that 16 times, and yes some can be done at the same time. However, others are more difficult to store, since there is a floor below which you cannot store more.

And then, burn speed. Most vials contain flakes of metals which will be fractions of a gram I would assume, and BB pellets are about ~0.3 gram. So you would burn that for minutes or hours, depending on the metal.

And then you need to repeat that many times, and each time you need 10x bigger piece of metal to store in, and 10x as much time to burn the metalmind.

After doing this four times, you would need to burn each of your metalminds for ~10000 hours to compound again, and at that point they weight around 16*300 grams in total, and you need 48 kilograms of metal to store in.

So, you quickly run into physical limitations. If filling BB sized metalmind can be done within ~month of time, then at most Fullborn can have something around ~10000 months of attribute available at any given time, more then that would require too much metalminds. And time to do this is on the order of ~16*1 month for initial storing + 16*(1000+100+10+1) hours, so about 40 months of pure time, i.e. more than 3 years of doing nothing but compounding. No practicing with powers, socializing, sleeping, eating, nothing. Bendalloy would help to 'cut down' externally perceived time, but that would require a lot of bendalloy.

And I will continue to argue that A-Duralumin could not be safely used for this process. Though even if it could, that still leaves the limitation that you can at most compound about 3-4 times before you would need to start dragging around ~50 kilograms of metal.

This effectively means that most feats of Fullborn will be limited by the fact that compressing attributes (i.e. going beyond human limits) wastes Investiture. I.e. you can become 2x as strong for 50 hours, but 50x as strong only for minutes.

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Brandon makes it clear that this is dangerous but I certainly think a fullborn could easily create a suit of armor and weapon sized metalminds as densely packed with attributes as the bands of mourning in the time it takes a soldier to progress through 5 oaths.

Based on the math above, I would say that getting to 5 Oaths would be typically faster (for those that could achieve it). Kaladin seems to be on path to achieve 5th Oath by his 3 year as Radiant, and Teft was not lagging far behind. And this is without having any guidance and making it up as he goes along.

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I don't think the question is could they do it... Miles likely had dozens of metalminds spread throughout his body that were packed as near to full as they possibly could be.  I have no doubt if Miles was a fullborn it would be far more dangerous than Rashek.  

No, Miles would not be more dangerous than Rashek. Rashek was not just Fullborn, but also Mistborn stronger then Lerasium one, a Sliver, and possessed remnants of knowledge of Shard from his Ascension.

And remember that Miles would have to now devote some of the space in his body to other metalminds than Gold, so he would actually have less ability to heal, if he were Fullborn.

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How many spheres would a windrunner bring to the fight?  If he knew about it I imagine quite a few more than if he was just out for his morning jog.  

Sown into clothes, maybe a bag?
Bag of spheres is enough to last for ~12 hours while using Lashings, and that is on 3rd Oath. With 2 more Oaths increasing effectiveness of surges, improving how much leakage there is, and Plate catching run-off, I think Windrunner can easily last full day just on Spheres in his clothes.

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Point being, I think there is evidence that if given the same information about the fight and the same length of time to prepare, the fullborn will likely have just as much access to large metalminds (armor sized) as the radiant would have spheres sewn into all of their clothes.

Sowing sphers into clothes takes a day or two, and filling them up takes at most 10 days (wait for Highstorm).
Preparing the metalminds (armor sized) takes years, as the above calculation shows.

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I think the edge likely falls on fullborns side with the exception of being about your normal business expecting no battles.  In that case the standard wallets worth of gems and plate / blade always there likely edges out a feruchemist on a jog with jewelry on... but that fullborn can certainly still compound a ton of attributes for use while its happening and in an arena with preparation time, it would not be outside the realm of possibility that they could craft a decent set of metalmind armor.  

Even without F-steel?

 

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If filling BB sized metalmind can be done within ~month of time, then at most Fullborn can have something around ~10000 months of attribute available at any given time, more then that would require too much metalminds.

Side not on this item from above.
If the calculation makes sense as order of magnitude estimate, then we can easily rule out most of the more outrageous statements about Fullborn (i.e. become black hole, melt the planet etc.).

In fact, per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126) the feruchemy is increasingly inefficient the harder you tap . If we look at example of F-steel (slightly borrowing from early post in Scadrial vs Roshar post RoW),  and try to figure out what penalties would be for n-fold tapping speed. I also assume that 100% speed for movement (running, walking etc.) is 9m/s, as that is roughly what above average person can sustain for a 100 meter dash.

We assume that the increasing tapping is not getting progressively difficult, just equally difficult. At 2x tapping we get 5/6 inefficiency, at 3x we get 1/2 inefficiency, ratio of these is 3/5, so then in the most optimistic scenario the penalty when tapping n-fold is 5/6(3/5)^(n-1). If I had 100 hours of 100% speed stored the time I would get out when tapping n-fold would be 100/n *5/6 * (3/5)^(n-1), so

1. Tapping at 10x speeds, to get total of 10+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*11 = 99 m/s), the time would 0.05 hours = 3 minutes (with original store being 100% (9m/s) speed for 100 hours)
2. Tapping at 20x speeds, to get total of 20+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*21 = 189 m/s), the time would be 0.00015 hours = 0.5 second
3. Tapping at 30x speeds, to get total of 30+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*31 = 279 m/s), the time would be 6*10^(-7) hours = 0.0022 second = 22 ms
4. Tapping at 40x speeds, to get total of 35+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*41 = 369 m/s, our first sonic speed!), the time would be 0.00001 second = 0.1 ms
    

Now, in light of the fact that Fullborn can have at most ~100 000 months of any given attribute at his person at a time (however with each metalmind weighting around 3 kilograms) then Fullborn has at most 30*24*100000 = 72 000 000 hours of 100% speed stored, which would enable them to move at mildly sonic speed for about ~72 seconds. Higher Machs would he exponentially more difficult to achieve, and with those stores would be basically impossible to sustain for more than a milisecond.

So either storing in the BB sized metalmind to fill it completely up takes more than a month, in fact considerably longer (~years). Or even Fullborn with full stores can move at Mach 1 for a minute at most, before running completely dry.

Huh.

Edited March 3, 2023 by therunner

[IlstrawberrySeed]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

I would not be so quick to use Wax as an example.
The reason is that Wax died 'only' because of damage to his physical body, but his spiritual and cognitive aspects were ok (as much as they could).
However, Shardblade specifically severs on all three realms, so in that instance also the Cognitive and Spiritual aspects would be wounded.
That could be sufficient to render metalminds inaccessible to Fullborn, and so would kill them outright.


Fullborn without F-steel vs 5th Oath Radiant, I think that could be more interesting match up (provided @Frustration does not mind this shift of subject matter).

 

Thanks for making the conversation fresh for when I hop in.

Also, can't you just hook up metalminds to follow (touching) in the cognitive realm, and send some to the spirit realm, in order to bypass that?

On 2/28/2023 at 0:56 PM, therunner said:

but still Fullborn has no defense against Reverse Lashing.

They can store, and more importantly tap connection to the ground. This makes RL less powerful.

On 2/28/2023 at 1:41 PM, therunner said:

Compounding takes time to perform, so most of the time even Compounder is only tapping or directly burning for using up the Investiture immediately.

And electrum won't show nothing if you get hit by Shardblade , at most going limp.

Also, if Bands of Mourning are representative of what possible Fullborn can do, then they are heavily constricted on time. They could perform most of the things people mention here for at most minute or two, for speed more like several seconds.

Marasi was new to all of the powers - she didn't even think of durilium, (though it wouldn't have been an option, since they were all one metalmind) and she didn't use finnesse at all. Wax was much the same. A fullborn would have much more skill, and much more access to powers between D-tapping, finnesse, and stored attribute.

On 2/28/2023 at 2:29 PM, Frustration said:

He can only fit so many metalminds on him, and compounding can only get you so much in a certain amount of time.

You forget that drawing more of an attribute out than you put in has diminishing returns, you will eventually reach a point after which drawing more of an attribute out will no longer increase your total amount.

It doesn't say anything about removing diminishing returns

In the physical sure, but they should be able to tap metalminds in the cognitive/spiritual realms, especially if they are spine severed. I don't think this should be used now other than just another way to ensure that the fullborn can survive a spine strike.

On 2/28/2023 at 2:45 PM, therunner said:

That could possibly kill Fullborn, A-Duralumin and compounding are not a smart mix per WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5901).

Compounding takes time, a lot of it if you want the sort of stores we are talking about here.

WoB says one can transfer atribute from one metalmind to another without showing effects of increased attribute. There is some loss to this, but it should work the same for compounding. Durilium just makes it faster.

14 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think pewter speed is beyond human, but also mostly irrelevant for Elend and Vin, because Steeljumping is faster. Vin says twice as fast as a galloping horse in TFE, so 60-80mph - I doubt Era 1 horses are as specialized for speed as our modern racehorses, so probably more like 60mph. But that's still probably twice as fast as her pewter speed.

Roshar is vastly higher Investiture than Scadrial. I don't think a Fullborn can remotely operate on that level, short of Bands of Mourning leaking-mist stuff (even TLR doesn't leak mist). And the Bands are *still* less Invested than a Shardblade.

So I'm skeptical of Leeching being *practical* against a Radiant. It would work on Rosharan Investiture, sure, but what seems instant against a few flakes of metal in Wax's stomach might be too long to be relevant for a fight (or take an impractical-to-swallow amount of chromium) against a Radiant full of Light.

On 2/28/2023 at 3:17 PM, alder24 said:

Well, coppermind: "It is much harder for Reverse Lashing to affect objects touching the ground, where their link to the planet is the strongest; objects falling or in flight are the easiest to influence."

Intrestingly, I think that steeljumping could still be faster, and more practical in this situation. If they reverse lash your anchors, then you use that as extra speed in getting where you want, and tapping connection to the ground allows oneself to avoid the worst of RL targeting them.

On 2/28/2023 at 4:02 PM, Frustration said:

That ending was retconned, so while yes, they could totally survive that, I wouldn't use it as evidence.

No, they really can't, the only thing confirmed to have enough power to pull on plate is the Well of Ascention

  Hide contents

Trae Cooper (paraphrased)

[...]

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

[...]

Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate.

DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012)

It was? What did it become?

Also, it's an example. Rashek isn't as poweful as the WoA, only a sliver of the power from it was used to increase his allomantic power. This WoB also came before TLM, so it isn't a valid argument in the specific scenario Mistborn Vs. Radiant there. 

On 3/1/2023 at 0:49 AM, therunner said:

Plate is waaay more Invested then TLR's bands, and Vin was at that point fueled by Preservation.
Shardplate is outside of that wheelhouse.

Theoretically sure, however the metalminds required to store that much of an attribute would be way too large.
Bands of Mourning were pretty much full, and they could sustain ~Mach 7 for few seconds. That was ~250x fold increase over regular amount, and we don't even know how much time it took to create.

Like I said, Fullborn are overestimated, because people forget Feruchemy has limits some of which cannot be transcended by Fullborn, and because people underestimate the amount of attribute necessary for some of these feats.

Windrunner can manipulate pressure to create vacuum, so air friction does not apply.
That is one of the few advantages Windrunner has.

I wouldn't put it past necrosil compounding. WoA is only an example, likely the mists were less powerful at a given instant than the WoA.

I don't know that they are too large, but I agree those arguments are bogus. Also, TBoM were tiny. 16 metals in something roughly the size of a fist. 1/16 the size of the fist is only 24cc.

Durilium provides the investiture required to compress the attribute, same as metals, so there is no loss of attribute from diminishing returns of tapping, (are for filling with compounding, see 3 above) so it's somewhere between our opinions. 

On 3/1/2023 at 7:34 AM, Frustration said:

The amount of atrbute you get from compounding is equal  to the amount of power you would have gotten via allomantically burning the metal. It would require you to burn literally a planet worth of metal to get that much power.

1. Diminishing returns also limits how fast they can go, even if they removed air friction. And Windrunners can create vacuums.

Investiture out =investiture(stored) + investiture(received) +  investiture(mass) - investiture(pull) - investiture(compression), where the pull is the investiture used to pull from the spiritual realm. I do believe that if you burn through X amount at normal speed and at flaring, you will get diffrent amounts of investiture, which is what durilium messes with. Could be wrong though - it would mean durilium is the least investiture intensive of all metals.

Vacuums are the windrunners best asset.

Durilium fuels compression instead of stored attribute, so diminishing returns comes from the compounding, not the tapping.

On 3/1/2023 at 11:14 AM, Frustration said:

They don't burn faster becuase they have more power, they burn faster because of the temporal shift that steel causes.

@alder24 isn't wrong, plate can be broken by F-pewter, though it would take a large amount, and wouldn't be as easy as he shows.

The burn rate increases, but the moles to investiture rating doesn't change. Because burn rate increases, more power is available in an instant. 

The hardest part about shattering plate is keeping from one of you moving. You would quite literally be positioned relative to him for the punch to work, which likely means reaching around to punch in your direction. Not easy at all. Breaking, sure thats easy, but not shattering or shattering and dealing damage.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

There is a large difference in a sheet of iron and shard plate.  As far as I have seen plate cracks where iron would be more likely to bend.  

Hitting plate with a shardblade does not leech investiture from the plate.  Cracks form and investiture in the form of light flows out of the plate.  Shardplate would likely be better if it acted less brittle and bend instead of cracking. For this reason a suit of armor filled with biochromatic breath, or in this case pieces of armor made from metalminds, would resist more strikes from the shardblade than shard plate does as they won't crack and leak out their investiture.  

But... the armor would be more vulnerable to bending and becoming an issue as far as mobility goes but having your spren become a blunt weapon to damage a metal suit would be far more useful than keeping it a sword in this case.  

 

I think in the case of projectiles bendalloy bubbles are overlooked slightly in their usefulness.  A handful of metal shot tossed out in front of a bendalloy bubble would allow the fullborn to selectively choose which pieces to shove against and which ones to ignore. 

It seems that pushes and pulls become stronger based on the weight differences between the anchors.  I think F iron in this case can certainly create the difference between shardplate weight and tip the scales the other direction.  

Certainly, CC is the best option for all radiant types. Can connection to the laws of physics be stored and then simply ignore the lashings completely?  Would this trick allow a windrunner to immobilize a Bondsmith?  

The other thing is it doesn't have to be an allomantic material - only partially. Take steel, fill it with speed, then purify it to iron. What's the biproduct? Invested CO2. Is it useful? Probably not.

59 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

There is totally a right way to compound and a wrong way to compound.  The wrong way is take a partially full metalmind and burn it hoping to get the power from it.  But the investiture isn't densely enough packed in it to make it worth it.

I'm splitting this quote up. It depends on what you mean by "tightly packed enough" - the metal:Investiture rate is higher if you aren't filling the metalmind while burning it, which may or may not be possible while D-Compounding. However, you don't get 10* of it back into a metalmind, there is decay in channeling the investiture from one metalmind to another, and that should hold for compounding.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Just like sourdough everytime you compound and don't use the attribute in between you are making it so much larger. 

I don't understand the first bit - It's more effecient to compound your metalmind then to tap, unless you are going to D-Tap.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I don't think compounding needs to boast its potential power... but I think tapping metalminds at high rates allow for more power in the alloted time than the compounding.  And I really think the benefit here is that you can tap them that long while burning small portions and refilling all along the way... so long as you have metal on your person you can infinitely loop a high rate of attributes until the metalminds are, themselves gone.  

I don't understand the first bit, and the latter bit can happen while compounding - You burn a partially full metalmind, and channel the attribute gained into the metalmind being burned.

1 hour ago, Being of Cacophony said:

So, I was browsing the Coppermind when I came across this that shows that Stormlight does give extra speed.

also, his fighting/reactions are enchanced when Syl is with him.

and the whole 'can he do vacuum stuff without extra spren,' the answer is yes

It manifests as windspren but is caused by the Surges so he can do it without the windspren

There is probably more to all this stuff but Idon't have time to go look for it.

I don't see this as swaying it much.

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think pewter is at best mildly beyond human. No character ever singles out Pewterarms as being faster then regular people, and the main feature for running is the inability to get tired while on pewter drag.

So basically that boils down, how much time does Fullborn have to prepare?

Yeah, but compounding takes active effort and focus and Intent. It is not exactly activity you can passively do.

After doing this four times, you would need to burn each of your metalminds for ~10000 hours to compound again, and at that point they weight around 16*300 grams in total, and you need 48 kilograms of metal to store in.

So, you quickly run into physical limitations. If filling BB sized metalmind can be done within ~month of time, then at most Fullborn can have something around ~1000-5000 months of attribute available at any given time, more then that would require too much metalminds. And time to do this is on the order of ~16*1 month for initial storing + 16*(1000+100+10+1) hours, so about 40 months of pure time, i.e. more than 3 years of doing nothing but compounding. No practicing with powers, socializing, sleeping, eating, nothing. Bendalloy would help to 'cut down' externally perceived time, but that would require a lot of bendalloy.

And I will continue to argue that A-Duralumin could not be safely used for this process. Though even if it could, that still leaves the limitation that you can at most compound about 3-4 times before you would need to start dragging around ~50 kilograms of metal.

This effectively means that most feats of Fullborn will be limited by the fact that compressing attributes (i.e. going beyond human limits) wastes Investiture. I.e. you can become 2x as strong for 50 hours, but 50x as strong only for minutes.

Based on the math above, I would say that getting to 5 Oaths would be typically faster (for those that could achieve it). Kaladin seems to be on path to achieve 5th Oath by his 3 year as Radiant, and Teft was not lagging far behind. And this is without having any guidance and making it up as he goes along.

No, Miles would not be more dangerous than Rashek.

I agree about pewter.

Prep time isn't a whole lot for a fullborn with steel, but even without it goes quick. If we are filling, to a constant amount of attribute, a metalmind in ourselves, then D-burning will cause the attribute to compound multiple times, and then give us the potentially deadly burst. If you split the filling between 2 metalminds, then there is no potentially deadly burst, and the whole burst goes into the second metalmind. This cannot be done with durilium unless you have a necroburst friend, but with an unsealed necrosilmind with A-necrosil should have that no-problem. In an instant, you can get about 1/4 the amount of attribute you'd get if it was already full from absolutely empty. The metal:attribute rate is the same as it would be for regular compounding, if not greater, but less efficient than compounding without filling.

Also, where do you get that you cannot unconsciously compound? If you aren't storing it for later, it should be the same as burning any other metal. It would be interesting to see a mistborn that only had access to unkeyed metalminds unconsciously burn wakefulness and gold when going unconscious.

Physical limitations as in metalmind size is an issue, I've discussed alternatives I don't think should be used here, but also, 24cc held the attributes of the bands. The size for superhuman feats aren't that large.

[Immortal Platypus]

3 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I don't see this as swaying it much.

It doesn't sway much, I just think that it's useful to put out here in case the question gets asked. It has already been asked multiple times.

[therunner]

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Also, where do you get that you cannot unconsciously compound? If you aren't storing it for later, it should be the same as burning any other metal. It would be interesting to see a mistborn that only had access to unkeyed metalminds unconsciously burn wakefulness and gold when going unconscious.

Unconscious burning of regular metal is only when you are trying to receive the desired effect, so there is still Intent there.
Only pewter has been shown to be burned when unconscious, and that was only when grievously wounded

For the metalminds, we see that Miles has to choose which attribute to get when burning the metalmind (If i recall correctly) so concious Intent is necessary.

Quote

Physical limitations as in metalmind size is an issue, I've discussed alternatives I don't think should be used here, but also, 24cc held the attributes of the bands. The size for superhuman feats aren't that large.

I would be careful when considering BoM, there is still a lot we don't know about them (e.g. why the users are trailing Mists, when no one else outside of Vin did that).

And as stated, they contain for example only seconds of supersonic speeds, even when some of that movement was only hands and not full body (which would presumably consume faster).

EDIT:

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Prep time isn't a whole lot for a fullborn with steel, but even without it goes quick. If we are filling, to a constant amount of attribute, a metalmind in ourselves, then D-burning will cause the attribute to compound multiple times, and then give us the potentially deadly burst. If you split the filling between 2 metalminds, then there is no potentially deadly burst, and the whole burst goes into the second metalmind. This cannot be done with durilium unless you have a necroburst friend, but with an unsealed necrosilmind with A-necrosil should have that no-problem. In an instant, you can get about 1/4 the amount of attribute you'd get if it was already full from absolutely empty. The metal:attribute rate is the same as it would be for regular compounding, if not greater, but less efficient than compounding without filling.

To use F-steel to speed up compounding process, you first need to store or compounded that amount of steel, so you actually cant do that. It would end up taking more time than just compounding the single metal on its own

And on using A-duralumin to speed up the process, I think that it is simply not feasible to handle, even for Fullborn.
You can manage the rate at which you store attribute, but the sudden influx of massive amount of attribute at once would be too much, since the attribute still passes through Fullborn. So inevitably the Fullborn would for some amount of time embody that attribute, which would be deadly to them for a lot of the occurrences. Plus who knows what such influx of attribute would do to their spiritweb.
And it would require great coordination on the end of Fullborn.

And I don't understand the part with A-Nicrosil, could you explain it again, step by step?

Edited March 3, 2023 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I think pewter is at best mildly beyond human. No character ever singles out Pewterarms as being faster then regular people, and the main feature for running is the inability to get tired while on pewter drag.

So I think between Stormlight perfecting, and some minor side-ffect of pewter, it is about equal.

So basically that boils down, how much time does Fullborn have to prepare?

I think assuming ability to go to like ~100x fold increase for a at most 10 seconds, or increasingly long for smaller compression factors is about reasonable. It is more than Bands of Mourning, but not excessively so (and we still don't know what those are, and they defy the understanding of medallions).

Yeah, but compounding takes active effort and focus and Intent. It is not exactly activity you can passively do.

I agree on the right way to compound (to an extent).
However, that original filling up time is going to be long. Most metalminds are small objects already (earrings, rings, etc.) and they are usually not full. Wax is storing pretty much all the time, and his metalminds are not full (as far as we know), despite him being at 50% almost all the time. So filling that will take a while, days, possibly more.

Then you need to do that 16 times, and yes some can be done at the same time. However, others are more difficult to store, since there is a floor below which you cannot store more.

And then, burn speed. Most vials contain flakes of metals which will be fractions of a gram I would assume, and BB pellets are about ~0.3 gram. So you would burn that for minutes or hours, depending on the metal.

And then you need to repeat that many times, and each time you need 10x bigger piece of metal to store in, and 10x as much time to burn the metalmind.

After doing this four times, you would need to burn each of your metalminds for ~10000 hours to compound again, and at that point they weight around 16*300 grams in total, and you need 48 kilograms of metal to store in.

So, you quickly run into physical limitations. If filling BB sized metalmind can be done within ~month of time, then at most Fullborn can have something around ~1000-5000 months of attribute available at any given time, more then that would require too much metalminds. And time to do this is on the order of ~16*1 month for initial storing + 16*(1000+100+10+1) hours, so about 40 months of pure time, i.e. more than 3 years of doing nothing but compounding. No practicing with powers, socializing, sleeping, eating, nothing. Bendalloy would help to 'cut down' externally perceived time, but that would require a lot of bendalloy.

And I will continue to argue that A-Duralumin could not be safely used for this process. Though even if it could, that still leaves the limitation that you can at most compound about 3-4 times before you would need to start dragging around ~50 kilograms of metal.

This effectively means that most feats of Fullborn will be limited by the fact that compressing attributes (i.e. going beyond human limits) wastes Investiture. I.e. you can become 2x as strong for 50 hours, but 50x as strong only for minutes.

Based on the math above, I would say that getting to 5 Oaths would be typically faster (for those that could achieve it). Kaladin seems to be on path to achieve 5th Oath by his 3 year as Radiant, and Teft was not lagging far behind. And this is without having any guidance and making it up as he goes along.

No, Miles would not be more dangerous than Rashek. Rashek was not just Fullborn, but also Mistborn stronger then Lerasium one, a Sliver, and possessed remnants of knowledge of Shard from his Ascension.

And remember that Miles would have to now devote some of the space in his body to other metalminds than Gold, so he would actually have less ability to heal, if he were Fullborn.

Sown into clothes, maybe a bag?
Bag of spheres is enough to last for ~12 hours while using Lashings, and that is on 3rd Oath. With 2 more Oaths increasing effectiveness of surges, improving how much leakage there is, and Plate catching run-off, I think Windrunner can easily last full day just on Spheres in his clothes.

Sowing sphers into clothes takes a day or two, and filling them up takes at most 10 days (wait for Highstorm).
Preparing the metalminds (armor sized) takes years, as the above calculation shows.

Even without F-steel?

Certain metals burn faster than others.  We know that making metalminds makes new alloys (in a sense).  I think the math, while underselling feruchemy and compounding, is a large point in favor of allomancy stores being far more capable and long lasting than previously speculated... and also makes duralumin pushes and pewter / duralumin slaps far more dangerous if you simply have a larger store of metal in your tank.  

By Miles being more dangerous than Rashek I just meant that Miles use of compounding and temperament would be far more dangerous.  Rashek didn't seem too interested in squishing Vin like a bug... I don't think Miles would have died to her had he been the one with her in his grasp. 

As for the bands of mourning, if you placed the bands inside of your body and burnt them you would still have nearly 10x the amount of attribute usage that we saw in BoM.  How much of each attribute do you really have to use to make yourself a threat to a radiant?  Even taking away steel speed (should we take away a surge?) We would end up with a person strong enough to move a body that weighs at least the same amount as plate and throwing hands as well as having steel / iron a to play with that is going to pack more of a punch than your typical 100-200lb mistborn. 

As was said by others, Marasi and Wax both went along the lines of "tap everything" and ran out.  So much of the bands were totally wasted.  I am sure that with how slowly a shaving of metal burns and how insanely packed it can be with attribute that they could use enough to become more capable than a suit of plate while burning  or flaring the bands with no need to burn duralumin.  

Kaladin was able to dance around and win vs a full shardbearer.  Granted he likely had access to stormlight at the time but clearly a perfected body that was in noway magically enhanced with outside strength and speed was able to best a shardbearer. 

The bands increased Wax's steel allomancy to the point of seeing the entire world at the spiritual / steel sight level.  What would nicrosil do to pewter allomancy?  You may take away F steel but you still have a person armed nicrosil boosted abilities and the ability to think super duper fast. The train station fight from limitless comes to mind. You are going to see and be able to react to every telegraphed move and again... pewter actually enhances your speed (even 20% faster than a normal human is more than what kaladin had in his fight against the shardbearer).  Add in electrum to show you the no go options of your future and it is the poor man's atium even more so.  Spook likened his tin senses to feel the movements of his opponents to atium... your fullborn doesn't have to be a tin savant to tap so much feeling/ proprioception to pull these feats off combined with thinking at limitless speeds.  

Saying no atium is a big ask as the only fullborn we have seen on screen had more than enough to last an army of radiants.  

Saying no steel is a new ask to try to balance it even further but I still don't think it is enough to sway the battle. 

Taking the two most impacting portions of the fullborns kit while leaving the 5th oath fully intact is interesting. If we remove adhesion from the 5th oath kit how many metals would be needed to compound to win the fight vs windrunner? Or gravitation? 

I am cuious and think it would be interesting to discuss the minimum powers compoundable to beat the 5th oath via spikes or medallions. 

A mistborn with access to 3-5 feruchemical metals could probably do it just fine. 

I think a feruchemist would be able to do it with even less spikes than that.  

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

don't understand the first bit, and the latter bit can happen while compounding - You burn a partially full metalmind, and channel the attribute gained into the metalmind being burned.

This is because the attribute is evenly distributed throughout the metalmind.  If you have 1hr moving at double speed and it packed inside of a shaving of metal that takes 1 minute to burn then you can transfer that to a metalmind 10x that size in 1 minute.  If you have 1hr moving at double speed and it is stored in a ring that will take 12 hrs to burn then even on a loop of storing what is burning you have lost a ton of efficiency.  

This is strictly the fastest method to have the highest concentration metalminds possible because compounding doesn't work on tapping at all.  It works based on your allomantic burn rates.  The smaller the metalmind > the faster you can burn it > the more power you get from it.

Same principle when diluting medications. If I give 1ml of epinephrine that doesn't tell me much at all... it could be 1ml that does nothing at all because it is so diluted (store a few minutes of an attribute into a large ring and burn the whole ring only netting you 10x what you put into it over the half a day you are burning) or that 1ml of epi could straight up kill the person because it was not diluted at all (a metalmind that has hours of an attribute but small enough to burn off in just a couple of minutes netting you 10x that attribute in just a few minutes).  

I don't believe that burning metalminds leads to the same diminishing returns as tapping them as you are using the spiritual realm to directly fuel that attribute at that rate.  

 

Another thought would be... do compounders gain more attribute if they are more powerful with a specific allomancy metal?  Miles estimated he got 10x more from burning than tapping the same amount and he is 1300 years separated from lerasium.  Would a lerasium mistborn draw more attributes from the spiritual realm while burning a metalmind in the same way that Elend was simply a stronger mistborn than Vin in every way minus practice and development?  If this is the case then your nicrosil compounding actually makes storing and compounding faster and better.  

Elend was able to burn metals faster and got more benefit from them per ounce than Vin. He would be able to burn his metalminds faster and the spiritual realm would make burning them more potent.  The bands already showed us that you can go beyond normal allomantic strength through compounding and if allomantic strength allows you to burn more efficiently and faster then fullborn gets even more appealing. 

[therunner]

8 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

As for the bands of mourning, if you placed the bands inside of your body and burnt them you would still have nearly 10x the amount of attribute usage that we saw in BoM.  How much of each attribute do you really have to use to make yourself a threat to a radiant?  Even taking away steel speed (should we take away a surge?) We would end up with a person strong enough to move a body that weighs at least the same amount as plate and throwing hands as well as having steel / iron a to play with that is going to pack more of a punch than your typical 100-200lb mistborn.

You would have 10x of what is stored sure, but how quickly can you access it when burning the metalmind?
Metals have burn and flare (unless the Mistborn is very proficient with given metal), so you would only get two possible rates. And from what Miles is saying, Compounding might be limited to only burn which gives you 10x in the amount. Since 'base setting' of Feruchemy (one without lost) is doubling of the attribute (i.e. you get linearly what you put in), then burning even Bands of Mourning would just get you to 10x (Edited) increase in all attributes (i.e. you would end up e.g. 10+1 times as strong, instead of 1+1 times as strong vs tapping at base rate), but you could not get more.

Interestingly, this rate is about in line with what Bleeder was doing (moving at ~10-12x times as fast as human at max speed), so perhaps she was not full on Compounding, just burning the metalminds of the Steelrunner she killed.

So tapping is necessary for the more extreme feats.


I suggested taking away F-Steel simply because it is quite clear that its mere presence heavily favours Fullborn, most arguments on the previous pages were pretty much "Fullborn is faster then Radiant even thinks". So after concluding that Fullborn wins pretty much all the time due to this, next step can be to remove the one power which clearly dominates all others, hence suggestion to remove speed.

Removing Surge would not really achieve anything like this.

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Saying no atium is a big ask as the only fullborn we have seen on screen had more than enough to last an army of radiants.  

Saying no steel is a new ask to try to balance it even further but I still don't think it is enough to sway the battle. 

Taking the two most impacting portions of the fullborns kit while leaving the 5th oath fully intact is interesting. If we remove adhesion from the 5th oath kit how many metals would be needed to compound to win the fight vs windrunner? Or gravitation? 

Atium is Era 1 only metal, so either Fullborn gets access to Atium but only 10 metals, or full 16 metals but no Atium.

Saying no steel is explained above for the reasoning, it is reaction to clear superiority of superspeed over pretty much any other power.
Later on we can start removing Surges, but I suggest discussing just one change first?

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I am cuious and think it would be interesting to discuss the minimum powers compoundable to beat the 5th oath via spikes or medallions. 

A mistborn with access to 3-5 feruchemical metals could probably do it just fine. 

I think a feruchemist would be able to do it with even less spikes than that.  

To fully discuss this would require TLM spoilers, so I'd avoid it.

From theoretical standpoint, either with compounded Steel wins. Without compounded steel, both Feruchemist and Mistborn require at minimum C-Gold and C-Pewter to even stand a chance of survival.

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I don't believe that burning metalminds leads to the same diminishing returns as tapping them as you are using the spiritual realm to directly fuel that attribute at that rate. 

I don't believe that either, however burning a metalmind gives you set amount of attribute which apparently is 10x fold. So it does not allow for the more extreme feats, e.g. moving at even just Mach 1 (which requires tapping at minimum for 40x of maximum speed).
However it is useful from the efficiency standpoint.

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The bands already showed us that you can go beyond normal allomantic strength through compounding and if allomantic strength allows you to burn more efficiently and faster then fullborn gets even more appealing. 

We don't know how Bands got made and they are weird compared to medallions (granting more powers than should be possible, granting allomancy, user leaking Mists) so I would not use them as evidence of what Nicrosil compounding can do to allomantic strength.
We simply don't know if that is possible with Nicrosil compounding.

Edited March 4, 2023 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

19 minutes ago, therunner said:

You would have 10x of what is stored sure, but how quickly can you access it when burning the metalmind?
Metals have burn and flare (unless the Mistborn is very proficient with given metal), so you would only get two possible rates. And from what Miles is saying, Compounding might be limited to only burn which gives you 10x in the amount. Since 'base setting' of Feruchemy (one without lost) is doubling of the attribute (i.e. you get linearly what you put in), then burning even Bands of Mourning would just get you to 20x increase in all attributes, but you could not get more.

So tapping is necessary for the more extreme feats.


I suggested taking away F-Steel simply because it is quite clear that its mere presence heavily favours Fullborn, most arguments on the previous pages were pretty much "Fullborn is faster then Radiant even thinks". So after concluding that Fullborn wins pretty much all the time due to this, next step can be to remove the one power which clearly dominates all others, hence suggestion to remove speed.

Removing Surge would not really achieve anything like this.

Atium is Era 1 only metal, so either Fullborn gets access to Atium but only 10 metals, or full 16 metals but no Atium.

Saying no steel is explained above for the reasoning, it is reaction to clear superiority of superspeed over pretty much any other power.
Later on we can start removing Surges, but I suggest discussing just one change first?

To fully discuss this would require TLM spoilers, so I'd avoid it.

From theoretical standpoint, either with compounded Steel wins. Without compounded steel, both Feruchemist and Mistborn require at minimum C-Gold and C-Pewter to even stand a chance of survival.

I don't believe that either, however burning a metalmind gives you set amount of attribute which apparently is 10x fold. So it does not allow for the more extreme feats, e.g. moving at even just Mach 1 (which requires tapping at minimum for 40x of maximum speed).
However it is useful from the efficiency standpoint.

We don't know how Bands got made and they are weird compared to medallions (granting more powers than should be possible, granting allomancy, user leaking Mists) so I would not use them as evidence of what Nicrosil compounding can do to allomantic strength.
We simply don't know if that is possible with Nicrosil compounding.

I kind of feel like we must agree on more than we disagree on because I think 20x normal through compounding at a burn rate that would take days is far more than enough to win the fight.  

20x 200lbs is 4000lbs.  Shardplate comes in at about 1400lbs.  

20x 24mph = 480mph... again you said the bands would take days to burn... thus 480mph for days.  

20x a 400lb deadlift (800-1200lbs for pewter burn / flare) would bring it up to strength capable of deadlifting 8000 / 16000 / 24000 lbs again capable of burning it for days.  

20x connection to the forces of nature as they actually exist not how the radiant wants them to exist.

20x mental speed 

Even limited to that box is the fullborn not enough to crush a radiant inside of its armor?  And this isn't tapping for sonic booms.  Why does a person need to tap for a sonic boom and waste all of their stores in one go when they can constantly exist as 20x the person they are normally?  The advantage is already so strong and that is just burning your metalmind at the painfully slow rate of not being allowed to flare or using duralumin.