Jump to content

Fullborn V.S. 5th Ideal Windrunners


Wits instant noodles

Fullborn V.S. 5th Ideal Windrunners  

56 members have voted

  1. 1. Who would win a Fullborn or a 5th ideal Windrunner



Recommended Posts

Quote

Apologies, I did not mean to imply you are doing that (too late in my timezone for this discussion me thinks).
Just that it is a thing that happens there, and is happening here with the roles reversed.

Oh yeah, I notice that too, which is on its own interesting. Tbf, if most people like you and Frustration were fully on the Fullborn side, I would be the one who thinks about ways for Windrunner to win. And I would be bad at this job as I still can’t see a way to do it without an ambush.

Quote

Even on 4th Oath it is possible see what happened to The Defeated One.
That was body touching the floor/ground, only part of the body was affected (again more difficult), and the body was Invested (which is also the case for Fullborn).
So I think this is well within scope of powers of 5th Ideal Windrunner.

He wasn't touching the ground, he was stuck to the wall upside down. And the reverse lashing was applied very close to his head, not 100 meters away.

Quote

If both are starting from 'relaxed' position, then creating Reverse lashing in hand or on belt is just as fast as tapping metalmind.
On the drop off, Reverse Lashing was shown to affect objects tens of meters away (the arrows). And gravity drops off relatively with square of distance typically, which is not that drastic.

Not really, Stormlight needs to flow there first, while speed is given to Feruchemist almost immediately. And that's only reverse lashing, Fullborn has enough time to "be attracted" to it, leech it out, and destroy Windrunner, before he even summons and positions his blade. Reverse lashing won't kill a Fullborn, as even The Defeated One had a few seconds before his head was ripped off. That's enough time to kill a Windrunner.

Quote

:D :D
I see, Fullborn full-industrialist, and  with access to Atium to boot!
Well then, Radiant clearly wins by taking over the planets (delivering them famous Bridge 4 stew cooked by squires) and then delivering Fullborn slightly off metals to deprive him of powers at just the right time :D :D

Oh you seem to forget that Fullborn already conquered 4 parallel universes and has unlimited metal supply. Huh, this starts to be weirdly similar. It's like I already was in a discussion where I made weird arguments just to win... :P 

 

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

Miles could also dedicate all of his bracers strictly to gold, not all sixteen

Metalminds don't have to be bracers. They can be inside your body, in every corner of your body. Replacing parts of your skull. Which is what i would do to secure them.

Quote

To cover fifteen feet?

What 15 feets? Shardblades are 6ft long, 2 steps are enough. Spren still takes time to change shape, and he does it because Radiant thought about it first, not the other way around. If Radiant can't think about it, then Spren can't change shape. Syl during the fight with Szeth felt what weapon Kal needed and changed shape accordingly. Which still took some time. Spren, the same as Radiant, can't think as fast as Fullborn.

Quote

Shallan would have been fine if it hadn't been lodged in her brain. Miles only surived the shotgun blast becuase it went straight through his skull.

Miles heals all damage done by any bullet before it even leaves his brain. It heals instantly as the bullet moves through his body. He heals any broken bones from falling the moment they start breaking. Stormlight healing always takes a bit of time.

Quote

Moved aside

How? Radiant can't think fast enough to make that correction. 

Quote

10 lashings and the Windrunner reaches the speed of sound in five seconds.

In what distance? With 10 lashings and 5 sec, he needs to be 857.5 m away to reach a speed of 343 m/s, which is Mach 1. Fullborn still can move faster. But he doesn't even need to. Give Windrunner 20, or 30 lashings, all Fullborn has to do is to move slower than that, only enough to dodge a Shardblade (or even take the cut and heal it), catch Windrunner's hand or leg and jump onto his back using moment of super speed and strength, and with one punch he will shatter Windrunner's plate, and rip his spine with his head out. Then crush his head in his hands. Dead. Windrunner won't be able to even react to this.

Or as I said before, move a bit aside and punch his head.

 

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

Something I was think of is that if a Fullborn did have their spine severed, they would have to be tapping gold at that instant, otherwise they wouldn't be able to heal, so they have to be constantly dipping into their gold reserves, even outside of a vacuum.

Why would a Fullborn keep all his metalminds in a single place? Look at Miles, he had dozens of metalminds, some hidden inside of his body. If I were a Fullborn I would hide my metalminds in every corner of my body, inside and outside, stick them to the bones, to the skull, especially gold, to make sure I can always heal any damage, touch them with my brain.

 

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Plate is waaay more Invested then TLR's bands, and Vin was at that point fueled by Preservation.
Shardplate is outside of that wheelhouse.

Depending on how nicrosil compounding works, it might be possible to gain that power. But I won't discuss this possibility.

Spoiler

The compounding side of the Metal Arts is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be... unnatural.

 

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Windrunner can manipulate pressure to create vacuum, so air friction does not apply.
That is one of the few advantages Windrunner has.

But he can't manipulate his mental speed, so using near-sonic speeds to engage in combat would put Windrunner in a huge disadvantage. Much greater than what he gets from moving that fast.

 

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!

Edit: Sorry, I had to :ph34r:

Spoiler
Spoiler
Spoiler
Spoiler

jeremy-clarkson-america.gif

 

 

 

 

Edited by alder24
Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Oh yeah, I notice that too, which is on its own interesting. Tbf, if most people like you and Frustration were fully on the Fullborn side, I would be the one who thinks about ways for Windrunner to win. And I would be bad at this job as I still can’t see a way to do it without an ambush.

Someone has to play the devil's advocate, even if only for the exercise of it.
Honestly without ambush I agree, little way to kill Fullborn who is deadly serious and not overconfident. The methods have to rely on Fullborn making a mistake or catching them off-guard somehow.

Quote

He wasn't touching the ground, he was stuck to the wall upside down. And the reverse lashing was applied very close to his head, not 100 meters away.

Ah, thanks for correction, it has been a while since reading RoW.

Then Windrunner has to set up Reverse Lashing, and hope that Fullborn will run towards him, breaking contact with ground. Though the WoB does not state it is impossible to affect objects on ground with Reverse Lashing, only more difficult. So, I would say possible but would require more Stormlight.

Quote

Not really, Stormlight needs to flow there first, while speed is given to Feruchemist almost immediately. And that's only reverse lashing, Fullborn has enough time to "be attracted" to it, leech it out, and destroy Windrunner, before he even summons and positions his blade. Reverse lashing won't kill a Fullborn, as even The Defeated One had a few seconds before his head was ripped off. That's enough time to kill a Windrunner.

The Stormlight would flow from the hand, the hand already contains Stormlight, so I don't think it woudl take appreciable amount of time.
Now, breathing in the light probably would, so I think Windrunner has to start with Stormlight already in body to stand at least minuscule chance.

Also the point of Reverse Lashing is not to kill Fullborn, just to either
 

  • a) Get him in air where he can no longer take advantage of F-steel (outside of grappling) and of Bendalloy bubbles (as he would pop them due to movement)
  • b ) Forcibly move him through Shardblade to sever his spine.

Question: Can the kill from Shardblade be healed? We know external healing can still do it (if the original end of WoR is to be believed), however if the spirit is separated from the body, then Fullborn cannot access his metalminds no?

Quote

Oh you seem to forget that Fullborn already conquered 4 parallel universes and has unlimited metal supply. Huh, this starts to be weirdly similar. It's like I already was in a discussion where I made weird arguments just to win... :P 

Oh, my mistake! How could I have overlooked such obvious problem :D :P

Quote

Metalminds don't have to be bracers. They can be inside your body, in every corner of your body. Replacing parts of your skull. Which is what i would do to secure them.

Why would a Fullborn keep all his metalminds in a single place? Look at Miles, he had dozens of metalminds, some hidden inside of his body. If I were a Fullborn I would hide my metalminds in every corner of my body, inside and outside, stick them to the bones, to the skull, especially gold, to make sure I can always heal any damage, touch them with my brain.

I don't think that is exactly true, i think if you tried to replace body parts with them (i.e. bones) they would get removed when tapping Health, unless you somehow tricked yourself into considering them part of yourself enough.

Sure tattoos and piercing don't necessarily get healed, however those don't majorly interfere with function of body. So I think you could get away with some implants, but they would be typically limited.

And depending on where you are cut, you cannot access some metalminds, so if the stores in the remaining body parts were insufficient, then you could not actually heal etc.

Quote

Miles heals all damage done by any bullet before it even leaves his brain. It heals instantly as the bullet moves through his body. He heals any broken bones from falling the moment they start breaking. Stormlight healing always takes a bit of time.

I mean, Kaladins broken legs healed pretty much immediately as well, and so did Shallans head once the bolt was removed.
And note that Miles was also savant who needed to tap health at all times, that also affected how quickly he healed.

Quote

But he can't manipulate his mental speed, so using near-sonic speeds to engage in combat would put Windrunner in a huge disadvantage. Much greater than what he gets from moving that fast.

It would not be actual combat, more of an ambush/strafing run that would require some setup.
So one shot attempt at killing the Fullborn, if Windrunner misses then Fullborn is aware and the technique cannot be used again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, therunner said:

Then Windrunner has to set up Reverse Lashing, and hope that Fullborn will run towards him, breaking contact with ground. Though the WoB does not state it is impossible to affect objects on ground with Reverse Lashing, only more difficult. So, I would say possible but would require more Stormlight.

I agree with this.

8 minutes ago, therunner said:

Question: Can the kill from Shardblade be healed? We know external healing can still do it (if the original end of WoR is to be believed), however if the spirit is separated from the body, then Fullborn cannot access his metalminds no?

That was because Honorblades can't heal Shardblade damage, or at least Szeth believed so. Gold compounder can, Fullborn as well. And Wax was killed at the end of BoM, Harmony said his spirit and mind was separated from his body, and still was able to tap gold and heal - so I assume as long as his spirit didn't pass to the Beyond, he can tap gold subconsciously, if he has a goldmind connection, but this would have a similar effect as Szeth's soul (Which I wonder if an heavily invested person can see that in Wax).

Spoiler

Questioner

Szeth says in the first Stormlight book that he can't heal from a Shardblade--

Brandon Sanderson

He can't.

Questioner

So when he got cut he couldn't heal that...

Brandon Sanderson

No. Not with his powers.

Questioner

Not from an Honorblade.

Brandon Sanderson

Not from an Honorblade.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Kurkistan

Could Miles heal back his Allomancy if it was spiked out of him?

Brandon Sanderson

No, he could not. He would no longer be an Allomancer. Also, he'd probably be dead. :)

Kurkistan

Thanks!

I'd thought maybe he could just do some super-tapping from his existing Health in his goldminds (since he'd still have his Feruchemy)...

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, I see what you're asking. Using Feruchemy to heal the removed portion of soul. That's actually plausible, not so different from healing other kinds of soul-wounds. If he survived, then yes, this actually might work. (That's why I get for reading the questions so quickly.)

Goodreads: Ask the Author Q&A (Aug. 13, 2014)

 

14 minutes ago, therunner said:
  • a) Get him in air where he can no longer take advantage of F-steel (outside of grappling) and of Bendalloy bubbles (as he would pop them due to movement)
  • b ) Forcibly move him through Shardblade to sever his spine.

Both of this can't be done - Fullborn can run faster than Windrunner can go into the air beyond his reach, or position Shardblade in a proper way, and reverse lashing would actually help him gain more speed. And severing a spine won't kill him, as he can heal soul damage (I'm not sure, does severing the spine of an Radiant kills him the same way as it kills a non-invested person? Not every spine cut is deadly - WoR Szeth in palace, one brigdeman lost only his legs).

18 minutes ago, therunner said:

I don't think that is exactly true, i think if you tried to replace body parts with them (i.e. bones) they would get removed when tapping Health, unless you somehow tricked yourself into considering them part of yourself enough.

Miles had a few inserted into his body. Every piercing that Miles had would be removed if it works as you said. The same with TLR metalmind. It would be easy to consider metalminds as a part of your body, as they are keyed  to your identity, and you have already used them for so long. TLM:

Spoiler

Both Wayne and Wax has his metalmind inserted into their body, Wayne doesn't "heal" them out.

There are 2000 year old skulls on Earth with metal plates in them, to seal a hole, so putting goldminds in parts of your skull is a necessity in my opinion. Not to mention golden teeth. 

21 minutes ago, therunner said:

And depending on where you are cut, you cannot access some metalminds, so if the stores in the remaining body parts were insufficient, then you could not actually heal etc.

But you can still compound with duralumin, which would give you much more attributes without diminishing returns, and with every bit of healing, you gain access to more goldminds.

23 minutes ago, therunner said:

I mean, Kaladins broken legs healed pretty much immediately as well, and so did Shallans head once the bolt was removed.

He wasn't able to stand up for a moment. Shallan lost consciousness, Miles didn't even feel pain.

23 minutes ago, therunner said:

And note that Miles was also savant who needed to tap health at all times, that also affected how quickly he healed.

He didnt need to, he wanted to.

27 minutes ago, therunner said:

It would not be actual combat, more of an ambush/strafing run that would require some setup.
So one shot attempt at killing the Fullborn, if Windrunner misses then Fullborn is aware and the technique cannot be used again.

Yes, this can only work if Fullborn is taken by total surprise, but even if he had a moment to tap zinc, he would be able to think faster than Windrunner moves and come up with a solution to secure his survival. He can, for yet another example, store his weight and duralumin push himself from his coin out of Windrunners reach in the very last moment. Or do a Neo trick from Matrix. Or jump with duralumin pewter/steel push. Or just push a coin into a Shardblade to nudge it just enough to miss Fullborn. I don't think a single Shardblade cut would even be enough to kill a Fullborn, when he has goldminds everywhere in his body. It's not even 100% efficient, just 1 in a dozens of situations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Sky Breaker said:

Well no if you could get enough bronze you could store and the burn your storage and then store that in a bigger metalmind and then burn that rinse and repeat until you have enough stored heat to dump it all and vaporize the planet also same could be done with weight to make a black whole or with pewter to make a massive bicep that completely blocks out the sun and make the planet freeze.

The amount of atrbute you get from compounding is equal  to the amount of power you would have gotten via allomantically burning the metal. It would require you to burn literally a planet worth of metal to get that much power.

13 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Feruchemical steel has limits to how fast it can make someone due to friction with the air. Wouldn't Windrunners have the same issue limiting their speed?

Correct me if I'm wrong (seriously, please do. I'd rather be called out than propagate false information), but doesn't Kaladin make a comment at some point in the SA that he only gets a bit more speed after Lashing himself several times?

(oh my gosh, I can't keep up with you guys, you post so fast! More than once I've been in the process of replying and two or three comments are already made!)

  1. Diminishing returns also limits how fast they can go, even if they removed air friction. And Windrunners can create vacuums.
  2. I don't recall him ever saying that, though that doesn't mean it isn't true.
  3. We have practice, you had to be this fast for Scadrial v. Roshar post RoW
6 hours ago, therunner said:

Bands of Mourning were pretty much full, and they could sustain ~Mach 7 for few seconds.

Where did you get mach 7 from?

Looking at it I don't see an argument for anything more than mach 1.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

What 15 feets? Shardblades are 6ft long, 2 steps are enough. Spren still takes time to change shape, and he does it because Radiant thought about it first, not the other way around. If Radiant can't think about it, then Spren can't change shape. Syl during the fight with Szeth felt what weapon Kal needed and changed shape accordingly. Which still took some time. Spren, the same as Radiant, can't think as fast as Fullborn.

Kaladin formed a spear that was 12 feet long, and in the KoW sample chapters Syl was able to get fifteen feet tall.

And Spren can change shape without imput, or even refuse to change, Wyndle refusing to form a cutting edge, and Syl forming weapons in Kaladin's hand during RoW, despite him not really knowing what he wanted.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Miles heals all damage done by any bullet before it even leaves his brain. It heals instantly as the bullet moves through his body. He heals any broken bones from falling the moment they start breaking. Stormlight healing always takes a bit of time.

Kaladin was able to heal his spine being severed in the brief moment Lezian pulled his knife out, and healing gets more efficent the higher oath you get.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

How? Radiant can't think fast enough to make that correction. 

Windspren move ahead of them and move it before they get there, just like how they can keep a bubble of pressurized wir around them in space.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

In what distance? With 10 lashings and 5 sec, he needs to be 857.5 m away to reach a speed of 343 m/s, which is Mach 1. Fullborn still can move faster. But he doesn't even need to. Give Windrunner 20, or 30 lashings, all Fullborn has to do is to move slower than that, only enough to dodge a Shardblade (or even take the cut and heal it), catch Windrunner's hand or leg and jump onto his back using moment of super speed and strength, and with one punch he will shatter Windrunner's plate, and rip his spine with his head out. Then crush his head in his hands. Dead. Windrunner won't be able to even react to this.

When has anyone gone faster than mach 1?

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Edit: Sorry, I had to :ph34r:

  Reveal hidden contents
  Hide contents
  Hide contents
  Hide contents

jeremy-clarkson-america.gif

 

 

 

 

Is this, an act of war?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

When has anyone gone faster than mach 1?

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Where did you get mach 7 from?

Looking at it I don't see an argument for anything more than mach 1.

Marasi created a vacuum behind her, and that requires at least mach 7. 

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Kaladin formed a spear that was 12 feet long, and in the KoW sample chapters Syl was able to get fifteen feet tall.

So it's still 2 steps, but now just to the other side of the Windrunner.

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Windspren move ahead of them and move it before they get there, just like how they can keep a bubble of pressurized wir around them in space.

Which still requires thinking of a Radiant to make such corrections if he wants to attack Fullborn.

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Is this, an act of war?

Maybe :ph34r:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, alder24 said:

Marasi created a vacuum behind her, and that requires at least mach 7. 

Behind her hand, not her, which significantly reduces the speed she was going at.

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

So it's still 2 steps, but now just to the other side of the Windrunner.

that would move them into the vacuum, which would probably cause them to pass out for a second, gold or no gold.

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Which still requires thinking of a Radiant to make such corrections if he wants to attack Fullborn.

How?

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Maybe :ph34r:

Poland: 2.5 guns per 100 people

USA: 120.5 guns per 100 people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another thing I though of is using Windspren to trap fullborn in full lashings while running to snap their feet off, and ruining their attack.

True they can leech them, but leeching takes time, and Chromium burns quickly, so it would be an effective strategy.

EDIT: since thy are tapping so much speed any metals they were burning would be quickly used up

Spoiler

ElephantEarwax

Would tapping Feruchemical speed cause you to burn metals faster as your whole body speeds up?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. I think it probably would. I don't know if we've gotten to that interaction yet, but it probably would. Good question. If it's speeding up... Yeah, I think it would. Good question. If you're in a speed bubble and doing it, it's totally going to do it, and there's some analogies there.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

Edited by Frustration
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Behind her hand, not her, which significantly reduces the speed she was going at.

It's a physical speed, she tap it to move her hand at mach 7, if she start walking, she would be walking at mach 7. It's the same speed

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

that would move them into the vacuum, which would probably cause them to pass out for a second, gold or no gold.

You know why you pass out in a vacuum? No oxygen. You know cadmium? It stores oxygen. Gold heals nasty effects of lack of oxygen - no passing out.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

How?

He moved, tunnel is already there and didn't move. Not to mention lashing correction. Think Windrunner, think!

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Poland: 2.5 guns per 100 people

USA: 120.5 guns per 100 people.

I see this as an absolute win

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Another thing I though of is using Windspren to trap fullborn in full lashings while running to snap their feet off, and ruining their attack.

True they can leech them, but leeching takes time, and Chromium burns quickly, so it would be an effective strategy.

Any example of Windsprens being used for full lashing? Sprens are immune to full lashing.

 

34 minutes ago, Frank of the Emerald Axes said:

I think that a 5th Ideal Windrunner would win.

A lot of this relies upon what the 5th Ideal gives the Radiant, but the sheer speed at what Windrunners are able to accelerate at would be multiple times a duralumin Steelpush. Maybe not Compounding.

Fullborn doesn't even have to use steel push, just steel speed from Feruchemy. Feruchemy is far superior in any aspect during this fight than regular allomancy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It's a physical speed, she tap it to move her hand at mach 7, if she start walking, she would be walking at mach 7. It's the same speed

The tip of a rotating object moves faster than the base

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You know why you pass out in a vacuum? No oxygen. You know cadmium? It stores oxygen. Gold heals nasty effects of lack of oxygen - no passing out.

Lack of pressure as well. That's part of why divers have to be careful about rising too quickly.

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

He moved, tunnel is already there and didn't move. Not to mention lashing correction. Think Windrunner, think!

The Windspren who made the tunnel can though

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Any example of Windsprens being used for full lashing? Sprens are immune to full lashing.

They can make them though

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The tip of a rotating object moves faster than the base

There is no rotation here, it's muscle movement.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Lack of pressure as well. That's part of why divers have to be careful about rising too quickly.

No, that's because lack of pressure is pulling the air out of your lungs, which you can't stop. Lack of oxygen makes you pass out. Lack of pressure makes your fluids boil, which is healable.

The thing with divers is about nitrogen narcosis.

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The Windspren who made the tunnel can though

Can they? Why? And that still doesn't change the fact that Windrunner needs to think to correct his lashing, which he doesn't have time for.

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They can make them though

Very weak and very small. Easy to avoid by zinc enhanced Fullborn with access to steel push. With speeds and strength Fullborn is capable of, he wouldn't even feel that, and chromium would leech it very fast, as there is barely any light there.

 

8 minutes ago, Frank of the Emerald Axes said:

At the same time, the speed you're sapping drains quicker than stormlight wiil, I'm betting. Especially if you have to crank it up to keep up with the windrunner.

The point is, you don't have to keep up with him, when you think faster than him, are stronger than him and you start the fight. All you need is a fraction of a second to run to him, punch him to smash his plate to pieces and rip off his head. That's it. He's dead. He can't even notice what is happening. If he is in the air, wait for him to come down to you, and repeat. Windrunner has to come down to fight Fullborn, not the other way around. Windrunner can't think as fast as he moves, Fullborn can.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

There is no rotation here, it's muscle movement.

Raise your arm.

In order to do so you have to rotate your arm from either your elbow, or your shoulder.

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Can they? Why? And that still doesn't change the fact that Windrunner needs to think to correct his lashing, which he doesn't have time for.

Why would they not be able to move?

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Very weak and very small. Easy to avoid by zinc enhanced Fullborn with access to steel push. With speeds and strength Fullborn is capable of, he wouldn't even feel that, and chromium would leech it very fast, as there is barely any light there.

The Fullborn cannot outrun them for more than a few seconds, they would have to devote all of their metalminds to steel in order to do that. And While they can be leeched, as this WoB shows

Spoiler

ElephantEarwax

Would tapping Feruchemical speed cause you to burn metals faster as your whole body speeds up?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. I think it probably would. I don't know if we've gotten to that interaction yet, but it probably would. Good question. If it's speeding up... Yeah, I think it would. Good question. If you're in a speed bubble and doing it, it's totally going to do it, and there's some analogies there.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

Along with Chromium burning quickly already, that at the speeds you want they would only be able to do that a few times. After that you have to start ripping your own feet off.

From there the Windrunner can keep them in a vacuum, and along with healing their legs it will further drain their gold, and their pewter.

And once they trip the Windspren can apply full lashings to their entire body, sticking it to the ground.

Thus immobilized, the Fullborn can then  be run through with a Shardblade and killed.

 

The one reliable way to kill a fullborn: Don't let them do anything.:P

Edited by Frustration
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Raise your arm.

In order to do so you have to rotate your arm from either your elbow, or your shoulder.

Which is done by muscles.

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Why would they not be able to move?

Because a) they can't think as fast as Fullborn, b] they can't react as fast as him c) Windrunner want them to make a tunnel in a direction of his lashing

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The Fullborn cannot outrun them for more than a few seconds, they would have to devote all of their metalminds to steel in order to do that. And While they can be leeched, as this WoB shows

Along with Chromium burning quickly already, that at the speeds you want they would only be able to do that a few times. After that you have to start ripping your own feet off.

From there the Windrunner can keep them in a vacuum, and along with healing their legs it will further drain their gold, and their pewter.

And once they trip the Windspren can apply full lashings to their entire body, sticking it to the ground.

Thus immobilized, the Fullborn can then  be run through with a Shardblade and killed.

He's not running away from them, he is running toward Windrunner to smack him in the face. And if he burns metals faster, his power also is stronger. And because there isn't much light in lashing, he would barely burn any metal, as he can think so fast to know when to start burning and when he leech all light and stop then, taking into account faster burn rate. You constantly forgeting about his mental speed which is his main weapon. 

If he can't do it because Windrunner is in the air, he waits for him to get down, if Windrunner doesn't want to go down, Fullborn can wait for him, he has bronze and bendalloy, he will outlast Windrunner's light. Not to mention A-bronze that would detect any Shardblade summon and lashings done by Windrunner alerting him of danger.

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The one reliable way to kill a fullborn: Don't let them do anything.:P

Yes, but how? Windrunner doesn't have a way to do so. Only befriend him with duralumin connection and be best friends 4ever :P 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Which is done by muscles.

Doesn't matter, it's still rotation

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Because a) they can't think as fast as Fullborn, b] they can't react as fast as him c) Windrunner want them to make a tunnel in a direction of his lashing

Yeah, but they will react to a change in the lashings.

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And if he burns metals faster, his power also is stronger

They don't burn faster becuase they have more power, they burn faster because of the temporal shift that steel causes.

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

he would barely burn any metal, as he can think so fast to know when to start burning and when he leech all light and stop then, taking into account faster burn rate. You constantly forgeting about his mental speed which is his main weapon. 

He would have to be constantly burning, or otherwise he'd rip his leg off before he even knows that he has the full lashing applied to him

No matter how fast he thinks he needs the information.

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

If he can't do it because Windrunner is in the air, he waits for him to get down, if Windrunner doesn't want to go down, Fullborn can wait for him, he has bronze and bendalloy, he will outlast Windrunner's light. Not to mention A-bronze that would detect any Shardblade summon and lashings done by Windrunner alerting him of danger.

With the amount of speed, and health you are having him draw on, not to mention the bendalloy there is no way he outlasts the Radiant

4 minutes ago, Frank of the Emerald Axes said:

*growls*

This guy./j

I like that you are putting up a fight, but Shardplate is resistant enough to not crack on a single hit, even with enhanced Pewter. And Fullborn has to restock on metals. Kaladin's movement in WoR seems like the kind of though ability that your omnipotent Fullborn has.

 

@alder24 isn't wrong, plate can be broken by F-pewter, though it would take a large amount, and wouldn't be as easy as he shows.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Frank of the Emerald Axes said:

I like that you are putting up a fight, but Shardplate is resistant enough to not crack on a single hit, even with enhanced Pewter. And Fullborn has to restock on metals. Kaladin's movement in WoR seems like the kind of though ability that your omnipotent Fullborn has.

Whaaaaaat? Ha - No. Kaladin Lashed himself multiple times and seriously cracked a plate during WoR arena fight. Fullborn has access to a crazy amount of strength, speed and weight, and can strike with such force that it would "explode" a plate "into thousands pieces". Yes it would cost a lot of attributes, but it would leave Windrunner fully defenceless.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Doesn't matter, it's still rotation

And what, her hand didn't move? Her fingers? Still her muscles would have to move far faster than Mach1.

 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Yeah, but they will react to a change in the lashings.

Which he can't do fast enough in reaction to Fullborn movement, because Fullborn is thinking in 8D, and Windrunner only in 3D. The same problem. Windrunner can't think fast enough when he is moving that fast.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

They don't burn faster becuase they have more power, they burn faster because of the temporal shift that steel causes.

Yes, but faster burn will result in giving more power - it's like bendalloy bubble emotional allomancy. From outside perspective it would look like more powerful Allomancy. Which helps compound even more. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/479/#e15224

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

He would have to be constantly burning, or otherwise he'd rip his leg off before he even knows that he has the full lashing applied to him

No matter how fast he thinks he needs the information.

Is he blind? He has 2 types of tin and A-electrum to see himself tripping, and F-chromium to feel where to step.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

With the amount of speed, and health you are having him draw on, not to mention the bendalloy there is no way he outlasts the Radiant

And he can use that time to compound more attributes and outlast Radiant. And go drink beer while Windrunner is floating away.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is more questions in the theoretical I guess but I will just leave them here to see.  

Allomantic aluminum... does it wipe outside investiture? When I read that it wipes metallic reserves I would say that it would hurt the fullborn to use it. When I read that it wipes outside investiture I think maybe it could help. Would a metalmind filled with the fullborns own attributes count as "outside investiture"? All of the magic belongs to the fullborn at that point. 

If it doesn't burn feruchemical metalminds due to their magic being 100% already a part of the feruchemist then you could forgo your allomantic powers and burn aluminum to completely negate the effects of any surge while you blitz the windrunner. 

 

Question 2. 

This is a vague WoB but would the windspren be able to communicate commands to use the surges with kaladin in a coppercloud?   Copper seems to block rhythms as much if not more than investiture itself.  

Keeper Exile

Would a Coppercloud at all affect how spren act?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

FanX Spring 2019 (April 19, 2019)

 

These could potentially ruin any ranged hope that the radiant has.  Even if not the fullborn can still eat a shardblade strike to reach the radiant and... once the fullborn lays hands on the radiant it is game over.  Leeching and feruchemy combined are too much for the radiant.  So long as the fullborn can heal enough to continue acting after tanking the damage of a blade they have far more tools at destroying the radiant than the radiant has at destroying the fullborn.  All of the vs battles usually break down to radiant having a 1 shot kill weapon... the fullborn is a 1 shot kill weapon and it has just as potent of healing, if not more, than the radiant. And windrunners don't have access to chromium at all to leach the fullborn either.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

And what, her hand didn't move? Her fingers? Still her muscles would have to move far faster than Mach1.

What?

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, but faster burn will result in giving more power - it's like bendalloy bubble emotional allomancy. From outside perspective it would look like more powerful Allomancy. Which helps compound even more. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/479/#e15224

Burning metal inside bendalloy doesn't make it more powerful, but it burns faster.

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

Is he blind? He has 2 types of tin and A-electrum to see himself tripping, and F-chromium to feel where to step.

F-Chromium will help, but that again requires him to draw more attributes, Tin wouldn't help, unless he's watching his feet the whole time, which makes it really hard to find your target.

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

And he can use that time to compound more attributes and outlast Radiant.

Where is he getting all of these metals from?

He can't draw the amount of attributes you want for this much time, and compound them, and not run out of metals.

At the rate you are having him draw speed he'd run out(based on Marasi) in under a minute, same with zinc.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This is more questions in the theoretical I guess but I will just leave them here to see.  

Allomantic aluminum... does it wipe outside investiture? When I read that it wipes metallic reserves I would say that it would hurt the fullborn to use it. When I read that it wipes outside investiture I think maybe it could help. Would a metalmind filled with the fullborns own attributes count as "outside investiture"? All of the magic belongs to the fullborn at that point. 

If they pierced his flesh they would be burned away, and if they don't they can be pulled by lashings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Allomantic aluminum... does it wipe outside investiture?

No, only inside investiture, but not just his metals, but effects imposed on him by outside investiture. Probably if he were to get lashed, you could burn aluminum to suck it out. But using aluminum is mostly useless because you are losing everything.

Spoiler

Kurkistan

If you're on Threnody and you get withered by a shade, are you better off burning Allomantic aluminum, or tapping Feruchemical gold?

*laughter*

[clarification on the question]

Brandon Sanderson

They would both work pretty well. I would say if you burned aluminum, that would kind of have the effect that you are wanting it to have, which is the effect-- negating and sucking out, so that's probably safer. But the gold would work, too.

Kurkistan

So would it be fair to describe withering as a kind of cancerous Forging-

Brandon Sanderson

Sure.

Kurkistan

That just kind of slowly takes over your soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Sure.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This is a vague WoB but would the windspren be able to communicate commands to use the surges with kaladin in a coppercloud?   Copper seems to block rhythms as much if not more than investiture itself.  

Some effect yes, but what precisly it would do is hard to say. Bronze allomancy allows you to hear Rhythms on Roshar, so copper would likely cloud them, and sprens do need to hear rhythms as well, so I guess it could mess up their connection to Roshar, but probably not in a big way.

Spoiler

Aethenoth

Can an Allomantic bronze burner hear the Rhythms on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is possible.

General Signed Books 2016 (May 2, 2016)

 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Burning metal inside bendalloy doesn't make it more powerful, but it burns faster.

From the outside perspective it looks like Mistborn inside a bubble is burning metals faster. Yet he still gets all power from this as he should. F-steel tapping a lot would still get all power as he should, and from the outside perspective it would look like he is "stronger" than normally.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

F-Chromium will help, but that again requires him to draw more attributes, Tin wouldn't help, unless he's watching his feet the whole time, which makes it really hard to find your target.

You have something called a "field of view", you can watch both your steps and your enemy. Especially with tin. He would see sprens. And nothing counters Electrum, so.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

At the rate you are having him draw speed he'd run out(based on Marasi) in under a minute, same with zinc.

I'm not having him draw at any rate. All of this is multiple separate scenarios. Not single, continuous one. If that was continuous, Windrunner would run low on Stormlight as well, and be killed 12 different times. Every single scenario you come up with (without an ambush) ends up with Windrunner death. So Fullborn doesn't really have to replenish his metals because he killed him several times already. It's very simple - if Fullborn can get to Windrunner - Windrunner is dead. If he can't he waits until Windrunner gets closer, or loses light due to evaporation - Windrunner is dead. Only ambush can work, and that’s only when Fullborn doesn’t know he is fighting someone.

 

 
Edited by alder24
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

why does fullborn start with all these attributes stored?

Because it's what would be expected for a Fullborn to have at any given time. There is no reason for them not to have their metalminds full unless they're an idiot or an exceptional circumstance where they had to start filling from scratch. Miles is an example of the ludicrous stores a Compounder can have

Edited by StanLemon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

why does fullborn start with all these attributes stored?

Why would we assume the radiant has progressed through all 5 oaths?  

To have a vs battle you have to assume there is enough juice on each side to allow for a fight.  Otherwise the discussion would be mistborn vs 5th oath.  It would be a slippery slope downwards until you got to 2 naked people with no magic at all.  Likewise it is a slippery slope to 2 shards fighting eachother.  

To pull examples from the books... Brandon has said he write all of his fights and then maths out the total cost of light and investiture needed to allow it to end with all resources depleted.  It makes these things very difficult to figure out as, with that road map to writing, we know that the victor is whoever was written to be the victor and the cost of the magics used will usually have run out perfectly for that to happen, or in Vins case time and time again, a shard intervenes and allows you to pull the W out of thick mist.  

A feruchemist (especially a compounder in all of the metals) would undoubtedly show up to a fight like this with a ton of full metalminds, which also block shardblade blows. 

From the books it would seem far more likely for a feruchemist to show up with metalminds to anything than it would for a radiant to just randomly wear around clothes with beads and sacks of gems. Feruchimsts, ever since book 1, have been shown to constantly wear their metalminds. Looking at Sazed, Wax and Wayne they seem to be slowly trickling in storage all the time barring when they are actively tapping.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ok. Just wondering because we're always assuming that they're fighting on an open field close enough that fullborn can run over and kill them, but we never question how they got there. Did the fullborn walk? Did the KR fly? who got there first? does the windrunner have space to fly at the fullborn? etc. etc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Being of Cacophony said:

ok. Just wondering because we're always assuming that they're fighting on an open field close enough that fullborn can run over and kill them, but we never question how they got there. Did the fullborn walk? Did the KR fly? who got there first? does the windrunner have space to fly at the fullborn? etc. etc

I always assume it is just 2 people plopped into an arena.  You are right the who, what, when, where, why, and how always matter.

I think there are far more winning scenarios for the fullborn than the 5th ideal.  Wax demonstrates that you can be brought back from death if you choose to tap a gold mind... so simply wearing one offers more safety than having spheres on your person.  It would suggest that the fullborn has more chance of surviving even a shardblade sneak attack than a radiant has chance of surviving a sneak attack as the act of breathing so you can access stormlight when not actively holding it in your lungs will be made impossible by any 1 shot method involving trauma to C5 or higher. 

In most arenas where both parties are prepared for the fight and know they are fighting there is questions of how large the arena is or how much metal is around it.  You can hamper a fullborn by saying no metal anywhere just as easily as you could hamper a radiant by placing a roof above the arena within steelpushing distance so the radiant can't just go up a few hundred feet.  Again, all limits that can be discussed separately.  

The goal of the fullborn is to simply grab hold of the radiant.  Once a fullborn wraps his fingers around a wrist of the radiant the fight is over.  The radiant isn't going to be pulling away from that literal death grip without abrasion and between chromium and the ability to heal through shardblade strikes the fullborn gets to lock your plate and then one shot you.  I know someone will try to claim that even a 20kg brick of chromium isn't enough to leech a radiant in plate or something... but with a reasonable amount of chromium and the fullborns kit of strength / weight / speed / healing you have someone dropping tens of thousands of lbs worth of hands onto your plate and body.  Lash them all you want but when a pewter compounder grabs hold of you I don't think you are getting away. 

As for resources... Kelsier held enough pewter to only run and fight for 10 minutes in one scene and then had enough to pewter drag for 12+ hours a couple chapters later.  Pointing to one system and claiming it will outlast the other is pointless as we have no unit to measure investiture in at all.  What we have is one system with leeching and one system without.  In any fight other than one where a contestant wins from the other side of the map due to spren (again I think copper likely interferes more than we know with that tactic) the person with leeching wins far more than the other.  

Fullborn are just the most OP non shards in the game... I don't see the power creep ending but leeching and anti investiture are becoming more and more popular and between chromium and copper (to an extent) the fullborn has access to both.  Who knows what wackiness the other spiritual feruchemy metals are going to allow you to do.  

If a fullborn used duralumin to sever all connection to the metals they wear and have in their stomach could they burn aluminum without it wiping those stores?  Can identity and connection allow a person to simply ignore effects around them?  Can chromium kill spren?  Could connection tapped at a high enough rate allow a fullborn to leech at range? What exactly does nicrosil do? Is there a world where connection gets tapped at such a rate that the fullborn is able to start breathing in light as well?  Leeching and then breathing in and storing light around them could be bonkers as well.  

Dancing in the theoreticals is fun.  From just what we see in the books I think the fullborn has all of the advantages in the world on their side. It is their fight to lose.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think there are far more winning scenarios for the fullborn than the 5th ideal.  Wax demonstrates that you can be brought back from death if you choose to tap a gold mind... so simply wearing one offers more safety than having spheres on your person.  It would suggest that the fullborn has more chance of surviving even a shardblade sneak attack than a radiant has chance of surviving a sneak attack as the act of breathing so you can access stormlight when not actively holding it in your lungs will be made impossible by any 1 shot method involving trauma to C5 or higher.

I would not be so quick to use Wax as an example.
The reason is that Wax died 'only' because of damage to his physical body, but his spiritual and cognitive aspects were ok (as much as they could).
However, Shardblade specifically severs on all three realms, so in that instance also the Cognitive and Spiritual aspects would be wounded.
That could be sufficient to render metalminds inaccessible to Fullborn, and so would kill them outright.


Also, somehow Shardblade can sever connection lines generated via burning steel/iron, so that could be a surprise for Fullborn (though it does nothing to negate their speed advantage, which is the decisive factor.


Since most of us agree that Fullborn wins vast majority of time (outside of sneak attack), I would propose a single modification:

Fullborn without F-steel vs 5th Oath Radiant, I think that could be more interesting match up (provided @Frustration does not mind this shift of subject matter).

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, therunner said:

Fullborn without F-steel vs 5th Oath Radiant, I think that could be more interesting match up (provided @Frustration does not mind this shift of subject matter).

Interesting idea. Does the Fullborn still have access to enhanced Allomantic pewter? (assuming that nicrosil compounding can enhance raw Allomantic power temporarily?)

If so, the Fullborn could probably still keep up with, though not necessarily overwhelm the Windrunner with sheer speed.

It would definitely be a much closer fight if that were the case, and I think that the Fullborn's best bet would be to use Steelpushing and Ironpulling to attack his opponent, as the Radiant Shardblades give them an advantage in melee combat due to their reach. The windrunner could use Surgebinding to mess with metal projectiles, which would compromise this tactic to an extent, though I doubt that it would be completely useless, particularly if Feruchemical iron comes into play.

Melee wise, it would be like a martial artist trying to fight a swordman, which is not easy (Dalinar even states this in OB), though the enhanced dexterity of pewter and the intuition of Feruchemical chromium could probably compensate, and if they could get a good grip on the Windrunner for long enough they could use Allomantic chromium to drain them of Stormlight. Plus, they could deliberately create Metalminds via Compounding to resist Shardblade attacks, though that would assume they knew full well ahead of time that such a tactic would work and that they were going up against a Radiant. If they do know ahead of time, the Fullborn mitigates the Windrunner Shardblade's super-sharpness, at least to an extent.

The windrunner's best tactics would be to either use their Shardblade and Plate to try and one-shot the Fullborn with a hit to the spine or head, or to go full-range and use Surgebinding to deflect enemy projectiles, fly out of reach, and potentially Lash large objects to attack the Fullborn (similar to Szeth fighting Shardbearers in WoK).

In the end, the Fullborn has more potential tactics and probably (as far as I currently can tell) can bring more raw Investiture to bear. The fight could go either way, depending on the circumstances of the fight itself though (the location, knowledge of both opponents, and the time they have to prepare for the fight). As Hoid himself said, fair fights don't really exist.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Interesting idea. Does the Fullborn still have access to enhanced Allomantic pewter? (assuming that nicrosil compounding can enhance raw Allomantic power temporarily?)

If so, the Fullborn could probably still keep up with, though not necessarily overwhelm the Windrunner with sheer speed.

I'd say possibly yes, though I don't think enhanced pewter improves speed that much. All the feats of pewter in the books are consistent with someone 'just' being capable of non-stop sprinting at limit of human capability, or very slightly beyond.
Similarly, Elend is not described as faster then Vin, despite being Lerasium Mistborn, and demonstrably more powerful in other ways.

So I think Speedwise, Radiant in Plate actually has advantage now.

Quote

It would definitely be a much closer fight if that were the case, and I think that the Fullborn's best bet would be to use Steelpushing and Ironpulling to attack his opponent, as the Radiant Shardblades give them an advantage in melee combat due to their reach. The windrunner could use Surgebinding to mess with metal projectiles, which would compromise this tactic to an extent, though I doubt that it would be completely useless, particularly if Feruchemical iron comes into play.

Would F-Iron help? It would ensure that you cannot really push the metals away (as Fullborn is heavier), however it would not make the pushes/pulls stronger as far as I understand it.
So Reverse Lashing should still be able to easily pull them aside. And on top of that, Coins are not that dangerous to plate.
 

Quote

Melee wise, it would be like a martial artist trying to fight a swordman, which is not easy (Dalinar even states this in OB), though the enhanced dexterity of pewter and the intuition of Feruchemical chromium could probably compensate, and if they could get a good grip on the Windrunner for long enough they could use Allomantic chromium to drain them of Stormlight.

Don't forget that Radiant has plate, which also enhanced dexterity, strength and speed.
Though using F-Chromium, A-electrum and F-zinc together would make Fullborn a nightmare to grapple with even in close quarters.
The only advantage there is that Shardplate wound would not show on Electrum shadow.

Also, Plate would shield Radiant from being leeched. So either Fullborn would have to leech the spren comprising plate enough to damage them, or they would have to break plate first. Both of these while in melee range of Shardblade.
 

Quote

Plus, they could deliberately create Metalminds via Compounding to resist Shardblade attacks, though that would assume they knew full well ahead of time that such a tactic would work and that they were going up against a Radiant. If they do know ahead of time, the Fullborn mitigates the Windrunner Shardblade's super-sharpness, at least to an extent.

True that would help, though it might take too much time. BoM were far less Invested than Shardblade, relatively small, and yet nearly full metalminds. So creating a full body armor might take too much time even with Compounding. I'd say that having a vambrace or two that can resist shardblade makes sense, but anything beyond that gives a lot of leeway to Fullborn.

Also I wonder if using metalmind as shield would 'damage' the Investiture in them in some way. For example half-shards can only take a few hits, and so can Shardplate, so I would assume that getting hit by Shardblade would damage the metalmind somehow.
 

Quote

The windrunner's best tactics would be to either use their Shardblade and Plate to try and one-shot the Fullborn with a hit to the spine or head, or to go full-range and use Surgebinding to deflect enemy projectiles, fly out of reach, and potentially Lash large objects to attack the Fullborn (similar to Szeth fighting Shardbearers in WoK).

I would go with the second option, use projectiles to force Fullborn to waste Chromium, Zinc, Electrum, Bendalloy and Gold, and do occasional probing attacks with Shardblade.

Quote

In the end, the Fullborn has more potential tactics and probably (as far as I currently can tell) can bring more raw Investiture to bear. The fight could go either way, depending on the circumstances of the fight itself though (the location, knowledge of both opponents, and the time they have to prepare for the fight). As Hoid himself said, fair fights don't really exist.

Yeah, they have more options however without the speed they are all much more risky.
Their best offensive option (Steel) is negated by reverse Lashings and Plate, so Fullborn would have to get close, break plate and then kill Radiant.

On the other hand Radiant has to strike spine or head, and then possibly keep hacking at them to negate healing.


I wonder if it would be possible to attach Reverse Lashings to gemstones, similar to Illusions. If so, that would allow Windrunner to partially immobilize Fullborn by trapping him between two Reverse Lashings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...