Immortal Platypus Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 good job 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 12 minutes ago, alder24 said: Why wouldn't he? And why wounldn't he tap fortune and burn electrum during a fight? He can only replenish attributes so fast. 12 minutes ago, alder24 said: Why wouldn't he be able to do it with steel? He can always be faster than Radiant. No he can't. Steel has hard caps on how fast it can go, Gravitation does not 14 minutes ago, alder24 said: Kal's spear in WoK during battle with Eshonai used an existing crack. But it didn't create the crack, nor did it shatter that section. 15 minutes ago, alder24 said: But with enough force it will be done with one punch. But can a Fullborn reasonably generate that much force? 16 minutes ago, alder24 said: . But, hear me out, you don't need to punch through a plate, you simply need to stop Radiant, and g forces would do the rest with that speed. That would kill them too then. Or maybe even just the fullborn as plate wil cusion the blow. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 (edited) 34 minutes ago, alder24 said: It is, so you "contact" his hand that reverse lashing him, and tap iron to avoid being lashed, avoid a Shardblade with steel and zinc, and that strong punch in the Windrunner face who goes with that speed would kill him instantly, no healing, he turns into a blood puddle. You contact the hand after getting pulled through Shardblade. Steel+Zinc could work out for dodging, but I don't think they would be fast enough to hit Windrunner moving at ~10 km/s, they would be in range of Fullborn for less then 0.0001 seconds. +Shardplate. Quote tap iron That won't necessarily help, if the acceleration is through the Surge of Gravitation then Fullborn would be equally effected no matter how massive, only more Investiture would be required. Might work, might not, depending on the Investiture levels. Quote enough for Fullborn, he can write an 1000 page essey in his mind in that time, and use steel to still move out of Radiant's way. Not to mention bendalloy and electrum and fortune. If they happened to be looking in the right direction at the time, sure. But as @Trusk'our pointed out F-Chromium could help with that. Quote zinc Won't help to move. Quote Why wouldn't he? And why wounldn't he tap fortune and burn electrum during a fight? He would be tapping to some extent, but what is the question. Compounding takes time to perform, so most of the time even Compounder is only tapping or directly burning for using up the Investiture immediately. And electrum won't show nothing if you get hit by Shardblade , at most going limp. Quote Those are not different kinds of weight. Tin allows you to store different kinds of senses, for sight, hearing and even pain. It's more similar to this. Arguably they are, bones have some weight, muscles different. Or even more granularly, different atoms in the body have different weight. I can buy storing Connection to different sorts of places/people/etc. but not that they can just choose what kind of Connection that is. They are Ferring, not Bondsmith. Also, if Bands of Mourning are representative of what possible Fullborn can do, then they are heavily constricted on time. They could perform most of the things people mention here for at most minute or two, for speed more like several seconds. And just to reiterate, I do think Fullborn would win vast majority of time (exceptions being ambush, and possibly some creative usage of Reverse Lashing most likely also in ambush-like manner, or ambush via Shardblade through neck). However I do think that Fullborns are a bit overestimated especially when it comes to Connection and the other more esoteric powers. Edited February 28, 2023 by therunner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 5 minutes ago, therunner said: And just to reiterate, I do think Fullborn would win vast majority of time (exceptions being ambush, and possibly some creative usage of Reverse Lashing most likely also in ambush-like manner, or ambush via Shardblade through neck). However I do think that Fullborns are a bit overestimated especially when it comes to Connection and the other more esoteric powers. Agreed, I'd say Fullborn has 80-95/100 win rate, but they are not near so powerful as they are often portrayed as. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusk'our Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 16 minutes ago, therunner said: And just to reiterate, I do think Fullborn would win vast majority of time (exceptions being ambush, and possibly some creative usage of Reverse Lashing most likely also in ambush-like manner, or ambush via Shardblade through neck). However I do think that Fullborns are a bit overestimated especially when it comes to Connection and the other more esoteric powers. Probably true. I'm guilty of always assuming that any Fullborn we meet would be like TLR, but that's not really true. Their Allomantic powers would be far more limited, and while their Compounding would also be pretty strong, it wouldn't be unstoppable, especially since the effectiveness of Compounding is tied directly to how powerful the practitioner's Allomancy is. But I'd still give a well trained, well-prepared Fullborn a 98% win rate, even if they have difficulty breaking the Windrunner's plate and have to avoid their blade. Too many enhancements and useful powers on the Fullborn's side, giving them more raw power and versatility in more circumstances. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 1 minute ago, Trusk'our said: Their Allomantic powers would be far more limited, Nicrosil compounding takes that limitation away, so not really. And duraluminum takes any caps off of compounding. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 Just now, UnfortunatelyNamed said: Nicrosil compounding takes that limitation away, so not really. That's also subject to both diminishing returns, and a time limit, so while they could totally get to Lerasium levels, they won't get to TLR levels. 2 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said: And duraluminum takes any caps off of compounding. It might make it faster, but it doesn't take any caps off. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusk'our Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 Just now, UnfortunatelyNamed said: Nicrosil compounding takes that limitation away, so not really. And duraluminum takes any caps off of compounding. Crap, I forgot about the duralumin again. I don't know about the nicrosil compounding though. It may be that when the infamous "nicrosil is like copper" quote was given, it meant that you can't just stack up the Feruchemical nicrosil's stores to make them more powerful than what you originally stored, but I'm not sure. Maybe you could do it, in which case, any Fullborn is back to being rediculously OP, at least for combat purposes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 Just now, Trusk'our said: Crap, I forgot about the duralumin again. I don't know about the nicrosil compounding though. It may be that when the infamous "nicrosil is like copper" quote was given, it meant that you can't just stack up the Feruchemical nicrosil's stores to make them more powerful than what you originally stored, but I'm not sure. Maybe you could do it, in which case, any Fullborn is back to being rediculously OP, at least for combat purposes. Nicrosil like Copper is for Medallions, not standard Nicrosil 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 42 minutes ago, Frustration said: He can only replenish attributes so fast. He's Fullborn, he already has a lot of it, and can compound on the spot. 40 minutes ago, Frustration said: No he can't. Steel has hard caps on how fast it can go, Gravitation does not Gravitation gives you no ability to think faster, only thing Fullborn has to do is to make one step to the back, and Windrunner misses him completely and won't even realize that, Use still with Brass to avoid friction heating. 39 minutes ago, Frustration said: But can a Fullborn reasonably generate that much force? Yes, A-pewter strength. compounding, and he has no limit on how big he can get, as he isn't getting bigger. 40 minutes ago, Frustration said: That would kill them too then. Or maybe even just the fullborn as plate wil cusion the blow. Rip Fullborn's arm, yes, but he can heal that, Windrunner can't heal from a puddle of blood. Plate's sections would be destroyed 23 minutes ago, therunner said: You contact the hand after getting pulled through Shardblade. Steel+Zinc could work out for dodging, but I don't think they would be fast enough to hit Windrunner moving at ~10 km/s, they would be in range of Fullborn for less then 0.0001 seconds. +Shardplate. Yes, hard to do, but with enough speed and zinc, can be done. 22 minutes ago, therunner said: That won't necessarily help, if the acceleration is through the Surge of Gravitation then Fullborn would be equally effected no matter how massive, only more Investiture would be required. Might work, might not, depending on the Investiture levels. Force would be the same, but inertia would stop him from moving. 22 minutes ago, therunner said: Won't help to move. Yes it will 21 minutes ago, therunner said: If they happened to be looking in the right direction at the time, sure. Windrunner would glow, he can see it with tin even behind a horizon. And electrum and chromium will help. 20 minutes ago, therunner said: Compounding takes time to perform, so most of the time even Compounder is only tapping or directly burning for using up the Investiture immediately. Compound with duralumin to get it instantly. 20 minutes ago, therunner said: And electrum won't show nothing if you get hit by Shardblade , at most going limp. it will show you getting hit by a sonic boom. 20 minutes ago, therunner said: Arguably they are, bones have some weight, muscles different. Or even more granularly, different atoms in the body have different weight. No. It's weight. It's mass. The same thing. It comes from the same phenomena. Seeing and hearing comes from different things. 27 minutes ago, therunner said: Also, if Bands of Mourning are representative of what possible Fullborn can do, then they are heavily constricted on time. They could perform most of the things people mention here for at most minute or two, for speed more like several seconds. Even a minute or two would be enough to kill Windrunner, and Fullborn can compound more when needed. 28 minutes ago, therunner said: And just to reiterate, I do think Fullborn would win vast majority of time (exceptions being ambush, and possibly some creative usage of Reverse Lashing most likely also in ambush-like manner, or ambush via Shardblade through neck). However I do think that Fullborns are a bit overestimated especially when it comes to Connection and the other more esoteric powers. Here is the thing, yes, by moving 0.3c Windrunner can ambush and kill a Fullborn who doesn't know he is fighting someone, while Windrunners know, know what Fullborn does, where he is, prepares and acts in a proper way. This way he can win. And only this way. Now reverse it, now Fullborn knows he is fighting a Windrunner, what he can do, and where to find him and prepares. However Fullborn can ambush Windrunner with 1000 different methods, killing him each time. But I doubt this is what this discussion is about. It's about Fullborn and Windrunner who both meet on an open field and start fighting. No ambushes. With proper ambush you can kill even a Shard. But without an ambush, I can't see it still. Yes, connection things are mostly speculation, he can become a squire by WoB but more is unknown how it works. Both of us have equal chances to be right with interpretation on how this works. It was more of a fun, speculative idea. I wish we knew more. 7 minutes ago, Frustration said: It might make it faster, but it doesn't take any caps off. It does, you get all attribute in one powerful burst of energy without any diminishing returns, because it acts like an allomantic metal. I wonder if you could do the same by simply tapping metalmind with duralumin. Spoiler Questioner What happens if you burn duralumin while Compounding? Brandon Sanderson Duralumin while Compounding. So, what duralumin does is it burns out of all of your metal in one burst. So it doesn't necessarily gain you power, it makes it all happen at the same time. The same thing would happen. Questioner Could you turn into a baby? Brandon Sanderson Oh, you could totally turn into a baby. That is within the power of using that, doing <health wrong>, yeah you could totally... You'd be really dangerous. Questioner But it wouldn't really do much? Brandon Sanderson Oh it would have explosive... it does things really fast. That's what it does. Yes you could achieve very powerful sudden effects through that. It'd be scary. Controlling it can be dangerous, regardless of which metal you use. Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016) Another fun, speculative and theoretical idea - nicrosil compounding to open perpendicularity and go into CR: Spoiler TheFulgid Could you Invest... Could you use a nicrosil metalmind to Invest the sort of Investiture enough that you could open a Perpendicularity up to the Cognitive Realm? Brandon Sanderson So, I'll just say it this way. Enough concentrated Investiture in one point is going to pierce the Realms, no matter what form it takes. TheFulgid ...So, it doesn't have to be a nicrosil metalmind. Brandon Sanderson No. TheFulgid Okay... But it could be? Brandon Sanderson Yes. That is theoretically possible. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) I'm writing sooooo slow, I can't keep up with you guys 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 3 minutes ago, alder24 said: He's Fullborn, he already has a lot of it, and can compound on the spot. He can only fit so many metalminds on him, and compounding can only get you so much in a certain amount of time. 4 minutes ago, alder24 said: Gravitation gives you no ability to think faster, only thing Fullborn has to do is to make one step to the back, and Windrunner misses him completely and won't even realize that, But the Spren will, and can increase their length. 4 minutes ago, alder24 said: Use still with Brass to avoid friction heating. Yes, A-pewter strength. compounding, and he has no limit on how big he can get, as he isn't getting bigger. You forget that drawing more of an attribute out than you put in has diminishing returns, you will eventually reach a point after which drawing more of an attribute out will no longer increase your total amount. 6 minutes ago, alder24 said: Rip Fullborn's arm, yes, but he can heal that, Windrunner can't heal from a puddle of blood. Plate's sections would be destroyed An arm won't stop them, at most it would break some plate, and knock them around, but they won't stop. And Fullborn don't heal any better than Radiants do, but plate gives them durability a Fullborn will never be able to match. 7 minutes ago, alder24 said: it will show you getting hit by a sonic boom. There wouldn't be a sonic boom, as they would be flying in a vacuum. 8 minutes ago, alder24 said: It does, you get all attribute in one powerful burst of energy without any diminishing returns, because it acts like an allomantic metal. I wonder if you could do the same by simply tapping metalmind with duralumin. Reveal hidden contents Questioner What happens if you burn duralumin while Compounding? Brandon Sanderson Duralumin while Compounding. So, what duralumin does is it burns out of all of your metal in one burst. So it doesn't necessarily gain you power, it makes it all happen at the same time. The same thing would happen. Questioner Could you turn into a baby? Brandon Sanderson Oh, you could totally turn into a baby. That is within the power of using that, doing <health wrong>, yeah you could totally... You'd be really dangerous. Questioner But it wouldn't really do much? Brandon Sanderson Oh it would have explosive... it does things really fast. That's what it does. Yes you could achieve very powerful sudden effects through that. It'd be scary. Controlling it can be dangerous, regardless of which metal you use. Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016) It doesn't say anything about removing diminishing returns 8 minutes ago, alder24 said: Another fun, speculative and theoretical idea - nicrosil compounding to open perpendicularity and go into CR: Reveal hidden contents TheFulgid Could you Invest... Could you use a nicrosil metalmind to Invest the sort of Investiture enough that you could open a Perpendicularity up to the Cognitive Realm? Brandon Sanderson So, I'll just say it this way. Enough concentrated Investiture in one point is going to pierce the Realms, no matter what form it takes. TheFulgid ...So, it doesn't have to be a nicrosil metalmind. Brandon Sanderson No. TheFulgid Okay... But it could be? Brandon Sanderson Yes. That is theoretically possible. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) What does that get you? Windrunners can potentially see into the CR, (WoR 470, I do not have the chapter, I'll try and find it in a second), and the Shardblade can still cut you. 10 minutes ago, alder24 said: I'm writing sooooo slow, I can't keep up with you guys Muhahaha my plan is working 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 Just now, Frustration said: He can only fit so many metalminds on him, and compounding can only get you so much in a certain amount of time. Miles had so many health that he could heal from every wound and never run out. It was time and time told to us that he just can't run out of it. Fullborn would be the same with all 16 metals. 1 minute ago, Frustration said: But the Spren will, and can increase their length. No, sprens also have a cap on thinking speed. Void-Tower proves it, and many other occasions as well. They can't think faster than Fullborn and react at such speeds. 3 minutes ago, Frustration said: You forget that drawing more of an attribute out than you put in has diminishing returns, you will eventually reach a point after which drawing more of an attribute out will no longer increase your total amount. At this point you will smash Radiant's plate, or use compounding with duralumin to bypass diminishing returns. 4 minutes ago, Frustration said: An arm won't stop them, at most it would break some plate, and knock them around, but they won't stop. It's not an arm that's stoping them, it's a punch with the force of an falling airplate or whatever you can imagine. 5 minutes ago, Frustration said: And Fullborn don't heal any better than Radiants do, but plate gives them durability a Fullborn will never be able to match. He does, he can heal faster than Radiant. Fullborn has more strength, speed, healing, weight, and can easily overcome plate's durability. 7 minutes ago, Frustration said: There wouldn't be a sonic boom, as they would be flying in a vacuum. So what is happening to the air that was in that place? Disappear? No. It would be moved out of his way, and moved faster than a speed of sound, creating a sonic boom. Air don't disappear. It still has to be moved out to create a vacuum. The faster Windrunner moves, the faster air is moving, which would make a sonic boom. 9 minutes ago, Frustration said: It doesn't say anything about removing diminishing returns Because it's allomancy. You aren't tapping metal, you're burning it. No diminishing returns when metalmind is being burnt. 10 minutes ago, Frustration said: What does that get you? Windrunners can potentially see into the CR, (WoR 470, I do not have the chapter, I'll try and find it in a second), and the Shardblade can still cut you. I don't know, something? Time to compound, hide from ambush. Please quote if you find it, I don't remember this. 12 minutes ago, Frustration said: Muhahaha my plan is working Noooo. I'm afraid to go to sleep and wake up to 5 new pages 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 12 minutes ago, alder24 said: Yes, hard to do, but with enough speed and zinc, can be done. Maybe, but they do it once, and if the hit won't kill Radiant, they are without steel and zinc for rest of the fight most likely. We are talking about speeds that are ~5-10x as fast as Marasi was when tapping BoM, and at those speeds she nearly drained Bands in few seconds. Quote Force would be the same, but inertia would stop him from moving. Nope, if force in Reverse Lashing comes from gravity, then Fullborn will be accelerated equally no matter how heavy. That is the nifty feature of gravitational attraction, it is universal. Quote Yes it will Nope, see above. Quote Windrunner would glow, he can see it with tin even behind a horizon. And electrum and chromium will help. The don't glow that much, to be visible over the horizon (and if it is day, even then the glow is not that visible). And the Radiant is in plate, where the glow can be suppressed (see what Jasnah did). So no glow. Chromium agreed, electrum, maybe. Quote Compound with duralumin to get it instantly. That could possibly kill Fullborn, A-Duralumin and compounding are not a smart mix per WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5901). Quote it will show you getting hit by a sonic boom. Windrunner achieves these speeds in local vacuum, so maybe no sonic boom? Depends on how exactly that works (i.e. how is the air deflected from the vacuum ) Even so, the sonic boom would come after Windrunner, and if the Fullborn is tapping a lot of F-iron as you say they are, then getting hit by sonic boom won't do much to them. Quote No. It's weight. It's mass. The same thing. It comes from the same phenomena. Seeing and hearing comes from different things. Based on this argument Connection is Connection, same phenomena no matter what kind. Spiritually it is still the same attribute. Seeing/hearing are different organs, Connections are all parts of the same spiritweb. Quote Even a minute or two would be enough to kill Windrunner, and Fullborn can compound more when needed. Compounding takes time, a lot of it if you want the sort of stores we are talking about here. But yeah, minute or two should be enough. Quote Here is the thing, yes, by moving 0.3c Windrunner can ambush and kill a Fullborn who doesn't know he is fighting someone, while Windrunners know, know what Fullborn does, where he is, prepares and acts in a proper way. This way he can win. And only this way. Now reverse it, now Fullborn knows he is fighting a Windrunner, what he can do, and where to find him and prepares. However Fullborn can ambush Windrunner with 1000 different methods, killing him each time. But I doubt this is what this discussion is about. It's about Fullborn and Windrunner who both meet on an open field and start fighting. No ambushes. With proper ambush you can kill even a Shard. But without an ambush, I can't see it still. Sure, I am just doing what most people are doing for Mistborn when discussing Mistborn vs Windrunner I.e. giving the weaker party situational advantages, to see where they can eek out a win. Interestingly, in those discussion Mistborn going for ambush is considered often to be okay tactic. In open battle, the only hope would be either fly up high enough you are out of range, and the try Reverse Lashing Fullborn up, or rocks up and try and hit him to get Fullborn to waste stores. The other option is to immediately create as strong Reverse Lashing as possible, and at the same time summon Shardblade pointed at Fullborn. Quote Another fun, speculative and theoretical idea - nicrosil compounding to open perpendicularity and go into CR: Reveal hidden contents TheFulgid Could you Invest... Could you use a nicrosil metalmind to Invest the sort of Investiture enough that you could open a Perpendicularity up to the Cognitive Realm? Brandon Sanderson So, I'll just say it this way. Enough concentrated Investiture in one point is going to pierce the Realms, no matter what form it takes. TheFulgid ...So, it doesn't have to be a nicrosil metalmind. Brandon Sanderson No. TheFulgid Okay... But it could be? Brandon Sanderson Yes. That is theoretically possible. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) How much prep time does Fullborn have? And do they own mines and smelter factories? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 20 minutes ago, alder24 said: Miles had so many health that he could heal from every wound and never run out. It was time and time told to us that he just can't run out of it. Fullborn would be the same with all 16 metals. No he didn't, he would have run out eventually. 21 minutes ago, alder24 said: No, sprens also have a cap on thinking speed. Void-Tower proves it, and many other occasions as well. They can't think faster than Fullborn and react at such speeds. At the speed they are moving towards the Fullborn they can't both dodge and not give them the ability to react, at least not consistently, it would drain too much speed. 29 minutes ago, alder24 said: He does, he can heal faster than Radiant. Source? 29 minutes ago, alder24 said: So what is happening to the air that was in that place? Disappear? No. It would be moved out of his way, and moved faster than a speed of sound, creating a sonic boom. Air don't disappear. It still has to be moved out to create a vacuum. The faster Windrunner moves, the faster air is moving, which would make a sonic boom. It's moved ahead of them by windspren, who create a vacuum tunnel far enough ahead of them that they don't have to worry about it. 30 minutes ago, alder24 said: Because it's allomancy. You aren't tapping metal, you're burning it. No diminishing returns when metalmind is being burnt. When being burnt, but that will only provide so much, and certainly not enough to do some of the tings you are suggesting. 31 minutes ago, alder24 said: Noooo. I'm afraid to go to sleep and wake up to 5 new pages Muhahaha, my greatest weapon, timezones! We won't get that much done. 29 minutes ago, therunner said: Sure, I am just doing what most people are doing for Mistborn when discussing Mistborn vs Windrunner I.e. giving the weaker party situational advantages, to see where they can eek out a win. Interestingly, in those discussion Mistborn going for ambush is considered often to be okay tactic. I've been thinking about that too. Only I think that this one is closer than Windrunner vs. Mistborn, and doesn't require ambushes, even if a Windrunner win is highly unlikely. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 (edited) 32 minutes ago, therunner said: That could possibly kill Fullborn, A-Duralumin and compounding are not a smart mix per WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5901). Depends on how much and what. Allomantic pewter strength stored in pewtermind won't kill him. 32 minutes ago, therunner said: Windrunner achieves these speeds in local vacuum, so maybe no sonic boom? Depends on how exactly that works (i.e. how is the air deflected from the vacuum ) Even so, the sonic boom would come after Windrunner, and if the Fullborn is tapping a lot of F-iron as you say they are, then getting hit by sonic boom won't do much to them. I explain it in second post. What is happening to the air that was there? It have to be moved out, so sonic boom. 32 minutes ago, therunner said: Based on this argument Connection is Connection, same phenomena no matter what kind. Spiritually it is still the same attribute. Seeing/hearing are different organs, Connections are all parts of the same spiritweb. But connects you to different parts of a spirit web and its aspects. Mass comes from Higgs field. 32 minutes ago, therunner said: Compounding takes time, a lot of it if you want the sort of stores we are talking about here. Bendalloy bubble. 32 minutes ago, therunner said: Sure, I am just doing what most people are doing for Mistborn when discussing Mistborn vs Windrunner I.e. giving the weaker party situational advantages, to see where they can eek out a win. Interestingly, in those discussion Mistborn going for ambush is considered often to be okay tactic. Hey! I'm not doing that! Usually I did avoid the last Windrunner vs Mistborn because I believed Windrunner would win (shamefully I admit, I didn't read most of it). But this is a good discussion. 32 minutes ago, therunner said: In open battle, the only hope would be either fly up high enough you are out of range, and the try Reverse Lashing Fullborn up, or rocks up and try and hit him to get Fullborn to waste stores. The other option is to immediately create as strong Reverse Lashing as possible, and at the same time summon Shardblade pointed at Fullborn. Well, coppermind: "It is much harder for Reverse Lashing to affect objects touching the ground, where their link to the planet is the strongest; objects falling or in flight are the easiest to influence." Yes, it can be done, but Fullborn would be smashing their Shardplate, before they start doing reverse lashing on the ground. And it is a gravity surge, so its strength could drop drastically the further away it is. 32 minutes ago, therunner said: How much prep time does Fullborn have? And do they own mines and smelter factories? Well, you know me, I'm always picking the Scadrial's side, so he owns 16 planets, each smelting different metal, all of it delivered to him by FTL traveling to CR right where he is standing, ready to be used. Oh, and he has a shrinking tech so he can have all metals in his pockets, and had 1000 years to fill them with all attributes he needs 1 minute ago, Frustration said: No he didn't, he would have run out eventually. Technically yes, not in a way to make him lose any fight. 1 minute ago, Frustration said: At the speed they are moving towards the Fullborn they can't both dodge and not give them the ability to react, at least not consistently, it would drain too much speed. 2 steps are enough. 1 minute ago, Frustration said: Source? Shallan healing bolt in a head vs Miles healing, well everything? Miles can use more health at once than Radiant heal. 1 minute ago, Frustration said: It's moved ahead of them by windspren, who create a vacuum tunnel far enough ahead of them that they don't have to worry about it. If there is a long tunnel, Fullborn sees it, and steps aside without even using steel... And when a tunnel is created what is happening to the air? And how far away do they start this fight? If the whole continent apart, then sure, Windrunner can reach great speeds, if a field apart, then no, he can't. And if they just met, and the first thing Windrunner does is fly away, the Fullborn would just go to the nearest town and drink a beer, when Windrunner returns, there is no Fullborn on the field, and he won't find him. That's not really a fight, isn't it? 1 minute ago, Frustration said: When being burnt, but that will only provide so much, and certainly not enough to do some of the tings you are suggesting. It depends on the size of the metalmind, it doesn't have to be in his stomach. He can still do it. But I'm mostly using tapping. 1 minute ago, Frustration said: Muhahaha, my greatest weapon, timezones! Rust you Americans!! Have a storming whatever time you have. See you tomorrow/today. Edited February 28, 2023 by alder24 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, alder24 said: Depends on how much and what. Allomantic pewter strength stored in pewtermind won't kill him. True enough, A-pewter stored would be ok to burn like that. But remember that A-Duralumin boosts everything you are burning (and maybe tapping) so you have to be very careful how you use it. Quote I explain it in second post. What is happening to the air that was there? It have to be moved out, so sonic boom. But if moved out gradually ahead (i.e. gradually thinning the atmosphere in long cone ahead of Windrunner) than you reduce/remove the sonic boom. Though that would possibly create other effects, though how noticeable difficult to say. Quote But connects you to different parts of a spirit web and its aspects. Mass comes from Higgs field. In RL, yes, in Cosmere it is more complicated since it apparently works through spiritweb (F-Iron). All feruchemy does is manipulate Spiritweb of the Feruchemist, not physical forces around them. Quote Bendalloy bubble. Not good enough. They would need enough bendalloy for hours or days, even Wayne did not have that much. A good nugget is two minutes. Quote Hey! I'm not doing that! Usually I did avoid the last Windrunner vs Mistborn because I believed Windrunner would win (shamefully I admit, I didn't read most of it). But this is a good discussion. Apologies, I did not mean to imply you are doing that (too late in my timezone for this discussion me thinks). Just that it is a thing that happens there, and is happening here with the roles reversed. Quote Well, coppermind: "It is much harder for Reverse Lashing to affect objects touching the ground, where their link to the planet is the strongest; objects falling or in flight are the easiest to influence." Even on 4th Oath it is possible see what happened to The Defeated One. That was body touching the floor/ground, only part of the body was affected (again more difficult), and the body was Invested (which is also the case for Fullborn). So I think this is well within scope of powers of 5th Ideal Windrunner. Quote Yes, it can be done, but Fullborn would be smashing their Shardplate, before they start doing reverse lashing on the ground. And it is a gravity surge, so its strength could drop drastically the further away it is. If both are starting from 'relaxed' position, then creating Reverse lashing in hand or on belt is just as fast as tapping metalmind. On the drop off, Reverse Lashing was shown to affect objects tens of meters away (the arrows). And gravity drops off relatively with square of distance typically, which is not that drastic. Quote Well, you know me, I'm always picking the Scadrial's side, so he owns 16 planets, each smelting different metal, all of it delivered to him by FTL traveling to CR right where he is standing, ready to be used. Oh, and he has a shrinking tech so he can have all metals in his pockets, and had 1000 years to fill them with all attributes he needs I see, Fullborn full-industrialist, and with access to Atium to boot! Well then, Radiant clearly wins by taking over the planets (delivering them famous Bridge 4 stew cooked by squires) and then delivering Fullborn slightly off metals to deprive him of powers at just the right time Edited February 28, 2023 by therunner 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 11 minutes ago, alder24 said: Technically yes, not in a way to make him lose any fight. Miles could also dedicate all of his bracers strictly to gold, not all sixteen 12 minutes ago, alder24 said: 2 steps are enough. To cover fifteen feet? 13 minutes ago, alder24 said: Shallan healing bolt in a head vs Miles healing, well everything? Miles can use more health at once than Radiant heal. Shallan would have been fine if it hadn't been lodged in her brain. Miles only surived the shotgun blast becuase it went straight through his skull. 14 minutes ago, alder24 said: If there is a long tunnel, Fullborn sees it, and steps aside without even using steel... And when a tunnel is created what is happening to the air? Moved aside 15 minutes ago, alder24 said: And how far away do they start this fight? If the whole continent apart, then sure, Windrunner can reach great speeds, if a field apart, then no, he can't. And if they just met, and the first thing Windrunner does is fly away, the Fullborn would just go to the nearest town and drink a beer, when Windrunner returns, there is no Fullborn on the field, and he won't find him. That's not really a fight, isn't it? 10 lashings and the Windrunner reaches the speed of sound in five seconds. 16 minutes ago, alder24 said: Rust you Americans!! Have a storming whatever time you have. See you tomorrow/today. USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! See you then man 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tglassy Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 There is no logical way for the windrunner to win. The Fullborn can heal from Shardblade wounds. And we know it's possible to heal even from a Living Shardblade to the chest, because Szeth was brought back by Regrowth after being dead. So just do the Miles Hundredlives thing, and you'll always be tapping health. There is quite literally nothing a Windrunner could do to kill the Fullborn, except stab them and hold it in, but if they're close enough to stab them, the the Fullborn is close enough to move twice as fast, think four times as fast, move around the slice and pull their arms off. Sure, Windrunners can go pretty fast by manipulating atomspheric pressure, but there's no way for them to be able to think fast enough to USE that. And going that fast, they'd have to go in a straight line. If they even tried to turn, the G-Forces would tear them apart. And all the Fullborn would have to do is go into a house. Or a cave. Or anywhere where there isn't a very long straight line across land to build up speed and hope it hits. Conversations regarding the cap of how much of an attribute a Fullborn could store are disengenuous, because Merasi, when she grabbed the Bands, was essnetially a Fullborn, and if she really wanted to take Kal's head off, even after he swears the 5th ideal, she could have. No contest. She could see people's souls. She could see the trace metals in everything, and she could essentially fly. Oh, ok, a Windrunner could fly higher. Great. The only thing a Windrunner can do is run away. But even then, the Fullborn could just pull on their Plate. Yeah yeah, plate is invested, whatever, so were TLR's bands and Vin pushed them even when they were inside his body. A Fullborn could bring that kind of power to bare. Seriously, why is this even a competition? It doesn't take long to win a fight. There would be enough attributes to accomplish it. There is literally nothing a Windrunner could do to win this fight. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 1, 2023 Report Share Posted March 1, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Tglassy said: And we know it's possible to heal even from a Living Shardblade to the chest, because Szeth was brought back by Regrowth after being dead. That ending was retconned, so while yes, they could totally survive that, I wouldn't use it as evidence. 11 minutes ago, Tglassy said: Yeah yeah, plate is invested, whatever, so were TLR's bands and Vin pushed them even when they were inside his body. A Fullborn could bring that kind of power to bare. No, they really can't, the only thing confirmed to have enough power to pull on plate is the Well of Ascention Spoiler Trae Cooper (paraphrased) Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question. 1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture. 2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul. This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm. 3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades. Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate. DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012) Something I was think of is that if a Fullborn did have their spine severed, they would have to be tapping gold at that instant, otherwise they wouldn't be able to heal, so they have to be constantly dipping into their gold reserves, even outside of a vacuum. And as a pure thought experiment, at what pressure would air become solid at room temperature? Edited March 1, 2023 by Frustration 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Breaker Posted March 1, 2023 Report Share Posted March 1, 2023 With fullborn powers you could get something going really fast and then throw it at the ground and then run away from the explosion rinse and repeat until stormlight runs out or get a sword/knife/thrown coins and just use speed to just run by and cut them until they die or compound heat, healing, and breath until the world itself burns and the list of ways for them to win just goes on and on and on and I see only one way for a Windrunner to win ( instantly kill a shard and then ascend and then go and take at least nine hundred breaths then go to elantris and become an elantrian then use lashing after lashing in space to go so fast that they go back in time then kill their parents in less than a millisecond) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 1, 2023 Report Share Posted March 1, 2023 1 minute ago, Sky Breaker said: With fullborn powers you could get something going really fast and then throw it at the ground and then run away from the explosion rinse and repeat until stormlight runs out or get a sword/knife/thrown coins and just use speed to just run by and cut them until they die or compound heat, healing, and breath until the world itself burns and the list of ways for them to win just goes on and on and on and I see only one way for a Windrunner to win ( instantly kill a shard and then ascend and then go and take at least nine hundred breaths then go to elantris and become an elantrian then use lashing after lashing in space to go so fast that they go back in time then kill their parents in less than a millisecond) You forget about diminishing returns, Fullborn lack the power to burn worlds, it is just not something they can do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Breaker Posted March 1, 2023 Report Share Posted March 1, 2023 23 minutes ago, Frustration said: You forget about diminishing returns, Fullborn lack the power to burn worlds, it is just not something they can do. Well no if you could get enough bronze you could store and the burn your storage and then store that in a bigger metalmind and then burn that rinse and repeat until you have enough stored heat to dump it all and vaporize the planet also same could be done with weight to make a black whole or with pewter to make a massive bicep that completely blocks out the sun and make the planet freeze. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusk'our Posted March 1, 2023 Report Share Posted March 1, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, Frustration said: Steel has hard caps on how fast it can go, Gravitation does not Feruchemical steel has limits to how fast it can make someone due to friction with the air. Wouldn't Windrunners have the same issue limiting their speed? Correct me if I'm wrong (seriously, please do. I'd rather be called out than propagate false information), but doesn't Kaladin make a comment at some point in the SA that he only gets a bit more speed after Lashing himself several times? (oh my gosh, I can't keep up with you guys, you post so fast! More than once I've been in the process of replying and two or three comments are already made!) Edited March 1, 2023 by Trusk'our 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusk'our Posted March 1, 2023 Report Share Posted March 1, 2023 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Sky Breaker said: Well no if you could get enough bronze you could store and the burn your storage and then store that in a bigger metalmind and then burn that rinse and repeat until you have enough stored heat to dump it all and vaporize the planet also same could be done with weight to make a black whole or with pewter to make a massive bicep that completely blocks out the sun and make the planet freeze. Brass is warmth. Bronze is wakefulness. I suppose you could theoretically ascend via tapping enough wakefulness, similar to the Well of Ascension, then scrape the Windrunner's obliterated remains from the face of the planet after getting hit with a literal god's power. Seems like a totally legit strategy to me! Fullborn wins! (I'm so sorry, I couldn't resist) Edited March 1, 2023 by Trusk'our 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted March 1, 2023 Report Share Posted March 1, 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, Tglassy said: There is no logical way for the windrunner to win. The Fullborn can heal from Shardblade wounds. And we know it's possible to heal even from a Living Shardblade to the chest, because Szeth was brought back by Regrowth after being dead. So just do the Miles Hundredlives thing, and you'll always be tapping health. There is quite literally nothing a Windrunner could do to kill the Fullborn, except stab them and hold it in, but if they're close enough to stab them, the the Fullborn is close enough to move twice as fast, think four times as fast, move around the slice and pull their arms off. There are few ways, though they require Windrunner to get a bit of heads up to start earlier, or for Fullborn to not use their powers as effectively as they could since they could be overconfident (like what happened to TLR). At the end it is just for fun. Quote Sure, Windrunners can go pretty fast by manipulating atomspheric pressure, but there's no way for them to be able to think fast enough to USE that. And going that fast, they'd have to go in a straight line. If they even tried to turn, the G-Forces would tear them apart. And all the Fullborn would have to do is go into a house. Or a cave. Or anywhere where there isn't a very long straight line across land to build up speed and hope it hits. Sure, and all Windrunner has to do to survive is fly up, because Fullborn cannot fly. Quote But even then, the Fullborn could just pull on their Plate. Yeah yeah, plate is invested, whatever, so were TLR's bands and Vin pushed them even when they were inside his body. A Fullborn could bring that kind of power to bare. Plate is waaay more Invested then TLR's bands, and Vin was at that point fueled by Preservation. Shardplate is outside of that wheelhouse. 6 hours ago, Sky Breaker said: Well no if you could get enough bronze you could store and the burn your storage and then store that in a bigger metalmind and then burn that rinse and repeat until you have enough stored heat to dump it all and vaporize the planet also same could be done with weight to make a black whole or with pewter to make a massive bicep that completely blocks out the sun and make the planet freeze. Theoretically sure, however the metalminds required to store that much of an attribute would be way too large. Bands of Mourning were pretty much full, and they could sustain ~Mach 7 for few seconds. That was ~250x fold increase over regular amount, and we don't even know how much time it took to create. Heat to vaporize the planet would also vaporize the metalminds, killing the Fullborn. This gives hard cap on how much heat Fullborn can give off, let's say about ~3800 Kelvin, just ~15x fold increase over regular human temperature. To become black hole at human size, Fullborn would have to reach mass on order of ~10^27 kg. One, that would again kill them, as it would destroy the metalminds. Two, that is 10^25 fold increase in attribute, waaaaaaaay beyond what Bands of Mourning show is possible to store. Effectively you would need about that amount of metal to get that amount of mass stored. Not exactly possible. Enough pewter to make biceps of that size would result in the body breaking down most likely, there is only so far you can push Feruchemy. Gold would help to some extent, but at that point you are wasting a lot of pewter and a lot of gold, for effect that would last seconds at most. Like I said, Fullborn are overestimated, because people forget Feruchemy has limits some of which cannot be transcended by Fullborn, and because people underestimate the amount of attribute necessary for some of these feats. 6 hours ago, Trusk'our said: Feruchemical steel has limits to how fast it can make someone due to friction with the air. Wouldn't Windrunners have the same issue limiting their speed? Windrunner can manipulate pressure to create vacuum, so air friction does not apply. That is one of the few advantages Windrunner has. Edited March 1, 2023 by therunner 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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