Fullborn V.S. 5th Ideal Windrunners

[therunner Seer]

10 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Really?

I think so, though I don't have time to look for WoB.

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No, but the force cannot be stronger than the sight. I doubt that the wall blocks the force near as much as the sight.

Per Era 2, concrete walls basically block lines effectively.

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I'm trying to talk in 2d, but that's not working. I'll get something to you, if not here, then in my next post.

Alright.
 

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G-forces shouldn't apply to either of them for slightly different reasons, but do to one. I really doubt it applies to the other, but it's basically a non-issue for both parties anyway, is it not?

We have not seen 'the other' under-go great acceleration due to it, so we cannot really say.
I think it either applies to both or to neither, and if to both, both have equal means of dealing with the effects. I.e. both parties are equally hindered.

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C-tin is much better than F-tin or A-tin.

Not really, how is it better?

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If the fullborn sits in a building, waiting for the windrunner, and the windrunner refuses to enter, the fullborn wins eventually.

If Fullborn sits in building, Windrunner can throw boulders on the building.
Can Fullborn survive what is basically orbital strike with kinetic weapon? (If Windrunner took time to prepare, or just put a lot of lashings on the boulder).

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Not all powers. Only normal levels of mastery for steel, iron, and F-chromium; higher skill levels for F-zink, Electrum, F-tin, F-gold, and F-iron; and very basic understandings of bronze. I probably missed 2, but even then is only 9 they even need to understand. You don't need Kel levels of steel/iron, just enough to trigger RL or move and push/pull through walls. Healing might not take higher skill levels. Electrum and Zink are the 2 main ones needed to have fine control over, seconded by tin. Kel was average skill (or better) in 2(?) years, and had 8 that he needed to have at least regular mastery of, and got to higher levels with 2. If that is what's required, another 3 years gets your other higher skill levels, and lets toss in 2 others in case of distraction by unneeded powers. That's seven years. If compounding takes a year to learn, (I believe it only took so long for inquisitors due to discovering the method, not literal difficulty learning, so a month or 2,) then thats only 8 years. If we give them 5 years before they start, and another 8 due to distractions of regular life and for practicing the combos, then that puts it at 21. After that, it's compounding and extra training. Kal has had a few years to practice, and isn't much compared with our theoretical for windrunners without his special shenanigans.

So you need to master 3 powers, have high skill in 5 more? Still need more then twice the time of training than Windrunner would.

Without Kel's skill you won't be able to use RL against Windrunner (if that could be done at all), Windrunner is not going to just turn on RL and stop perceiving his surroundings, they are not dumb.
Push/pull through walls is question of raw power not skill.
Per WoB A-Electrum mastery can take years. F-Zinc just lets you think faster, not react faster (from what we saw in BoM).

Kel was not average skill, he was possibly more skilled then Vin with steel/iron (she herself calls him master of steel/iron like Mistings are master of their metal). He was one of the two most skilled users we have seen.

Inquisitors did not manage to learn to compound at all, so it takes a year at minimum, most likely more.

Edited for clarity
So 1 year to learn to compound, several years to compound enough stores (2 let's say), 2-3 years to master steel/iron (if the Fullborn happens to be as talented as Kelsier or Vin, more if they are 'average'), 2 years to master Electrum, 2-3 years to master Tin (like Spook), and we are already at 9-11 years.
F-zink and F-gold won't need much practice I think, but if you want to use F-Iron to assist in high-speed maneuvering, you will need time again ~2-3 years at minimum, putting the estimate at 11-14 years.
And they basically ignored every other metal (so no detecting people with pinpoint accuracy using bronze, or practice with Duralumin for any tricks etc.).

Kal has 2 years, and has no advantage of having trainers with his powers (like all the Mistings and Mistborn, and Ferring/Feruchemist did), so he had to rediscover everything from scratch. Give Windrunner 11-14 years with trainers, and they will outclass Kaladin by quite a margin I expect.

Edited March 22 by therunner
edited for clarity, since it was late when I was writing the post

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

14 hours ago, therunner said:

Per WoB A-Electrum mastery can take years. F-Zinc just lets you think faster, not react faster (from what we saw in BoM).

It does. Reaction process is composed of these actions - sending a signal from the sensory organ to the brain -> processing information by the brain -> sending signals to the muscles -> moving the muscles, as a reaction to that signal. F-zinc reduces the time it takes for the brain to process information. F-steel does it with muscle movement. Together they speed up the reaction process in these two, most important factors of it. So yes, F-zinc lets you react faster, as thinking is the very important part of reacting.

14 hours ago, therunner said:

Inquisitors did not manage to learn to compound at all, so it takes a year at minimum, most likely more.

And Vin almost figured out compounding on her own in 5 minutes. 

 

13 hours ago, therunner said:

Edited for clarity
So 1 year to learn to compound, several years to compound enough stores (2 let's say), 2-3 years to master steel/iron (if the Fullborn happens to be as talented as Kelsier or Vin, more if they are 'average'), 2 years to master Electrum, 2-3 years to master Tin (like Spook), and we are already at 9-11 years.
F-zink and F-gold won't need much practice I think, but if you want to use F-Iron to assist in high-speed maneuvering, you will need time again ~2-3 years at minimum, putting the estimate at 11-14 years.
And they basically ignored every other metal (so no detecting people with pinpoint accuracy using bronze, or practice with Duralumin for any tricks etc.).

Kal has 2 years, and has no advantage of having trainers with his powers (like all the Mistings and Mistborn, and Ferring/Feruchemist did), so he had to rediscover everything from scratch. Give Windrunner 11-14 years with trainers, and they will outclass Kaladin by quite a margin I expect.

Why wouldn't Mistborn/Fullborn be able to master several metals at once? Steel and Iron is used together, often with pewter, tin, and copper. Add to this F-iron and others, and you can master most combat metals at the same time. It took around 1 year for Spook to become a Savant, but we don't talk about Fullborn becoming a Savant of every metal. So you don't need 15 years, give him just a little intense training with every metal (F-zink and F-electrum will help), and he will become a master of every metal. That's what vin did, a few years later and she became extremely proficient with combat focused metals.  Marsh spent 1 year on killing and became a good Allomancer, another 1 year and was a very skillful one. 15 year old Wax with barely any training with A-steel was able to see the bullet as separate metal parts and kill his more skilled opponent.

And do we really have to discuss how much training and skill both sides have? Most things we're talking about are purely theoretical, and were never attempted on page. Arguing whether or not Fullborn is skilled enough to do something is pointless, as we never seen a Fullborn do any training. Wax with the Bands was immediately able to pull an airship equally, without ripping it apart - that's a skill he never used before. If you can diminish Fullborn's preparedness, I can say that the Windrunner has no training at all, he was just ready to swear all 5 ideals at once (there is a WoB proving it’s possible) and immediately got into the fight with Fullborn with no skill at anything. But that is stupid! It’s completely against what we’re trying to do here.

Can we just assume that both are very proficient with their powers, both had years of training and fighting behind them, and just fully focus on what they can do, without limiting them with skill? If there is something "hard" or difficult to do, we can acknowledge it, and move on knowing that it might not always work perfectly? Isn't that better?

[therunner Seer]

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It does. Reaction process is composed of these actions - sending a signal from the sensory organ to the brain -> processing information by the brain -> sending signals to the muscles -> moving the muscles, as a reaction to that signal. F-zinc reduces the time it takes for the brain to process information. F-steel does it with muscle movement. Together they speed up the reaction process in these two, most important factors of it. So yes, F-zinc lets you react faster, as thinking is the very important part of reacting.

You require F-steel though, without it you cannot act on those thoughts.
Basically i see F-zinc as F-steel applied solely to Frontal Cortex, as that is what Wax showed.

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And Vin almost figured out compounding on her own in 5 minutes.

Vin tried to burn metalmind, that is not the same thing as figuring out Compounding.
Per multiple WoBs there is a trick to it, and it is not as straightforward as that, at least at first time.
If it was that easy, Inquisitors have to be incredibly dumb to not think of it.

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Why wouldn't Mistborn/Fullborn be able to master several metals at once? Steel and Iron is used together, often with pewter, tin, and copper. Add to this F-iron and others, and you can master most combat metals at the same time. It took around 1 year for Spook to become a Savant, but we don't talk about Fullborn becoming a Savant of every metal. So you don't need 15 years, give him just a little intense training with every metal (F-zink and F-electrum will help), and he will become a master of every metal. That's what vin did, a few years later and she became extremely proficient with combat focused metals.  Marsh spent 1 year on killing and became a good Allomancer, another 1 year and was a very skillful one. 15 year old Wax with barely any training with A-steel was able to see the bullet as separate metal parts and kill his more skilled opponent.

Simple thing, time and focus.
We are told in books that Mistborn don't master metals to the same extent as Mistings do. If you have 16 years, and you practice with each metal equally, you will be 1/16 as skilled as Misting who focused just on single metal. Sure it is not that precise (some metals possibly require less time), however for most of the fancy stuff from WoBs you require practice and lot of it.

Edit: You might be burning the metals at the same time, but you are not focusing on them and exploring them to the same extent Misting does. Instead you learn the synergies, and how they work together.

Vin is also repeatedly stated to be prodigy, and extraordinarily skilled.
Marsh was basically piloted by Ruin for most of that year, plus whatever mental things happen to Inquisitors.

Wax did that once when 15 and then few more times nearly 30 years later, he is not doing it all the time (even when it would be useful), so it is clearly non-trivial even for someone with a lot of practice and skill.

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And do we really have to discuss how much training and skill both sides have? Most things we're talking about are purely theoretical, and were never attempted on page. Arguing whether or not Fullborn is skilled enough to do something is pointless, as we never seen a Fullborn do any training. Wax with the Bands was immediately able to pull an airship equally, without ripping it apart - that's a skill he never used before. If you can diminish Fullborn's preparedness, I can say that the Windrunner has no training at all, he was just ready to swear all 5 ideals at once (there is a WoB proving it’s possible) and immediately got into the fight with Fullborn with no skill at anything. But that is stupid! It’s completely against what we’re trying to do here.

If we assume that somehow Fullborn is skilled as Kelsier with steel/Iron, F-Iron more then Wax, can use Bronze to pinpoint enemies better then we have seen etc. , but somehow Windrunner is unable to properly use Reverse Lashing to protect from 2-3 directions, then yeah I think discussion about skill is needed.

Assuming that Fullborn is master of all, but Windrunner is average in their far less numerous skills seems disingenuous to me.

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Can we just assume that both are very proficient with their powers, both had years of training and fighting behind them, and just fully focus on what they can do, without limiting them with skill? If there is something "hard" or difficult to do, we can acknowledge it, and move on knowing that it might not always work perfectly? Isn't that better?

Sure that is what I was assuming up until ~page ago, until the discussion that somehow Windrunner is unable to use RL properly, while Fullborn is more skilled then Kelsier.


 

Edited March 22 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine Silent Gatherer]

48 minutes ago, therunner said:

You require F-steel though, without it you cannot act on those thoughts.
Basically i see F-zinc as F-steel applied solely to Frontal Cortex, as that is what Wax showed.

I would say your fast twitch muscles may not get into position any faster than what they can get into position with F zinc but the strength that it does offer is that every reaction will be the most optimal.  Like running a chess engine and choosing the optimal move every time.  

Zinc isn't powerful because it gets you into position faster.  Its powerful because every move it closer to a winning position than the one before.  Combine that with Allomantic pewter or F steel all you want and you still have a person who's reactions and processing are far beyond what a normal person can do.  

To return to a chess analogy... zinc alone would be like Magnus Carlson having a 10 minute clock va Magnus Carlson having a 1 minute clock... add in the powers to amp up your fast twitch speed and you only amplify that time difference.  

55 minutes ago, therunner said:

Vin tried to burn metalmind, that is not the same thing as figuring out Compounding.
Per multiple WoBs there is a trick to it, and it is not as straightforward as that, at least at first time.
If it was that easy, Inquisitors have to be incredibly dumb to not think of it.

How?  The only difference is that Vin is not a feruchemist.  If she had access to feruchemy in that metalmind she would have instantly known what was possible.  

Vin says she could sense there was a power there she just couldn't touch it.  That wasn't for lack of feruchemy even.  That was 100% lack of identity.  We know that if you can access a metalmind identity wise you could burn it and gain the benefits of compounded attributes (or maybe it is better to say that you would have the ability to fuel that attribute with the allomantic power from the spiritual realm). 

Had Sazeds metalmind been identityless it would have worked.   And if Vin had the feruchemy to store her own attribute and then burn it she would have known as well. 

57 minutes ago, therunner said:

Simple thing, time and focus.
We are told in books that Mistborn don't master metals to the same extent as Mistings do. If you have 16 years, and you practice with each metal equally, you will be 1/16 as skilled as Misting who focused just on single metal. Sure it is not that precise (some metals possibly require less time), however for most of the fancy stuff from WoBs you require practice and lot of it.

Edit: You might be burning the metals at the same time, but you are not focusing on them and exploring them to the same extent Misting does. Instead you learn the synergies, and how they work together.

Vin is also repeatedly stated to be prodigy, and extraordinarily skilled.
Marsh was basically piloted by Ruin for most of that year, plus whatever mental things happen to Inquisitors.

Wax did that once when 15 and then few more times nearly 30 years later, he is not doing it all the time (even when it would be useful), so it is clearly non-trivial even for someone with a lot of practice and skill.

Wax went through the mental process of breaking down that bullet and cartridge.  This is just another point to F zinc.  He would be able to process out those thoughts far faster and would likely be far more efficient with zinc due to being able to process all of that information even faster.  Working through every scenario in the time he chooses to make his muscles do what he wants.  

 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

If we assume that somehow Fullborn is skilled as Kelsier with steel/Iron, F-Iron more then Wax, can use Bronze to pinpoint enemies better then we have seen etc. , but somehow Windrunner is unable to properly use Reverse Lashing to protect from 2-3 directions, then yeah I think discussion about skill is needed.

Assuming that Fullborn is master of all, but Windrunner is average in their far less numerous skills seems disingenuous to me.

I can see that difficulty.  I haven't read far enough into SA to really speak about what a 4th ideal can do.  I feel like the fullborn we pretty well understand there is very little limit in place for them. 

Sure a mistborn isn't as skilled in specific metals as a misting but there is no questioning in combat the mistborn wins 99% of the time because even a more basic understanding of each metal has so much synergy with the others.  

The real argument is that noone really knows what is possible for anyone at the 5th heightening.  For all we know you only achieve the 5th heightening when it is time for you to die. 

Mutual destruction is my thoughts on how it would ultimately end up.  

As for experience.  Was the fullborn made or born?  I figure feruchemy is mostly granted via genetics and the odds of us having a fullborn that is not lerasium strength is far lower than a fullborn who was born and has no atium. 

The back and forth of stripping powers really shows where the strengths lie.  When the fullborn is no longer a fullborn and instead we are piecing together an inquisitor that is on a similar level of being disingenuous as assuming the windrunner can't just poo stormlight and impose his will on every portion of the world around him.  

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Sure that is what I was assuming up until ~page ago, until the discussion that somehow Windrunner is unable to use RL properly, while Fullborn is more skilled then Kelsier.

Honestly I didn't read too much of the last pages.  I figure RL doesn't really matter if melee is the goal.  Are we still going off of the idea that windspren can rip the fullborn apart while the windrunner floats safely in orbit a few planets away?  

In all seriousness I feel like any RL with the intent of blocking a projectile does little more than create a new anchor point for the fullborn.  You have a guy who can become as heavy or as light as they want and you are carrying a shield to stop the incoming metal.  To RL it to a wall or the ground would be more ideal as the windrunner at least isn't carrying a moving anchor for the fullborn... but it does open up more mobility options for the fullborn.  To RL it to a held shield would be a poor option as the fullborn could increase their weight 10 or 20 fold and then toss the windrunner like a ragdoll, plus whatever damage a projectile being flung where the power of the push comes from the size of the individual would deal.  

 

 

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

You require F-steel though, without it you cannot act on those thoughts.
Basically i see F-zinc as F-steel applied solely to Frontal Cortex, as that is what Wax showed.

Wax was standing still. And with F-zinc you can act faster,as if signal transfer is negligible, and thought process normally takes let's say 200 ms, then by using F-zinc you reduce that time to whatever compression you use. So you can start reacting 300 ms faster with your normal muscle speed. That's something. and F-zinc allows you to predict your opponent moves base on his early moves, so that another few dozens of milliseconds that you can start reacting faster. Still with F-steel it's much better.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Simple thing, time and focus.
We are told in books that Mistborn don't master metals to the same extent as Mistings do. If you have 16 years, and you practice with each metal equally, you will be 1/16 as skilled as Misting who focused just on single metal. Sure it is not that precise (some metals possibly require less time), however for most of the fancy stuff from WoBs you require practice and lot of it.

Edit: You might be burning the metals at the same time, but you are not focusing on them and exploring them to the same extent Misting does. Instead you learn the synergies, and how they work together.

Yeah, but Rioter can only practice when he's with other people, Thug can do it mostly when he's physically engaged or in a fight. Mistborn/Fullborn can juggle his training all the time, with extra help of zinc, electrum, and endless bronze. Misting will likely be better, but Mistborn/Fullborn has more opportunities to explore his powers in different circumstances that Misting can never explore, focus on them with a combination of other powers and achieve something different than simple Misting can never achieve.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Wax did that once when 15 and then few more times nearly 30 years later, he is not doing it all the time (even when it would be useful), so it is clearly non-trivial even for someone with a lot of practice and skill.

You know it's pointless to argue about it? This whole argument is so pointless that I don't even know why it's happening.

 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

If we assume that somehow Fullborn is skilled as Kelsier with steel/Iron, F-Iron more then Wax, can use Bronze to pinpoint enemies better then we have seen etc. , but somehow Windrunner is unable to properly use Reverse Lashing to protect from 2-3 directions, then yeah I think discussion about skill is needed.

Assuming that Fullborn is master of all, but Windrunner is average in their far less numerous skills seems disingenuous to me.

Fulborn being as skilled as Kelsier - why not? It only took a few years for Kelsier to become like this, most Mistborn trained far longer during era 1. Making steel bubbles like Wax? Why not? Others do them as well. Wax already used F-iron to change speed during steel pushing, so why not playing a bit more with it? That is still not a Rashek level of skill, whatever it might look like.

With bronze I agree, and I've never claimed Windrunner can't protect himself with reverse lashings, he can, with 2 shields in both of his hands, which would reduce his offensive abilities a bit (he can drop them to engage so that's not a problem). This would protect him from all directions, and render Fullborn's offensive push and pull on metal useless. With 1 shield Fullborn can still pull on metals behind Radiant, that is on the opposite side of his shield, and this metal would be reverse lashed to that shield through Radiant's body. It doesn't even have to be a shield, wooden plank, trash can cover, brick or whatever he picks up from the ground.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Sure that is what I was assuming up until ~page ago, until the discussion that somehow Windrunner is unable to use RL properly, while Fullborn is more skilled then Kelsier.

So let's just go back to it and not engage in pointless arguments.

 

30 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

In all seriousness I feel like any RL with the intent of blocking a projectile does little more than create a new anchor point for the fullborn.  You have a guy who can become as heavy or as light as they want and you are carrying a shield to stop the incoming metal.  To RL it to a wall or the ground would be more ideal as the windrunner at least isn't carrying a moving anchor for the fullborn... but it does open up more mobility options for the fullborn.  To RL it to a held shield would be a poor option as the fullborn could increase their weight 10 or 20 fold and then toss the windrunner like a ragdoll, plus whatever damage a projectile being flung where the power of the push comes from the size of the individual would deal.  

Excellent point.

[IlstrawberrySeed Grand]

18 hours ago, therunner said:

I think so, though I don't have time to look for WoB.

Per Era 2, concrete walls basically block lines effectively.

Alright.
 

We have not seen 'the other' under-go great acceleration due to it, so we cannot really say.
I think it either applies to both or to neither, and if to both, both have equal means of dealing with the effects. I.e. both parties are equally hindered.

Not really, how is it better?

If Fullborn sits in building, Windrunner can throw boulders on the building.
Can Fullborn survive what is basically orbital strike with kinetic weapon? (If Windrunner took time to prepare, or just put a lot of lashings on the boulder).

So you need to master 3 powers, have high skill in 5 more? Still need more then twice the time of training than Windrunner would.

Without Kel's skill you won't be able to use RL against Windrunner (if that could be done at all), Windrunner is not going to just turn on RL and stop perceiving his surroundings, they are not dumb.
Push/pull through walls is question of raw power not skill.
Per WoB A-Electrum mastery can take years. F-Zinc just lets you think faster, not react faster (from what we saw in BoM).

Kel was not average skill, he was possibly more skilled then Vin with steel/iron (she herself calls him master of steel/iron like Mistings are master of their metal). He was one of the two most skilled users we have seen.

Inquisitors did not manage to learn to compound at all, so it takes a year at minimum, most likely more.

Edited for clarity
So 1 year to learn to compound, several years to compound enough stores (2 let's say), 2-3 years to master steel/iron (if the Fullborn happens to be as talented as Kelsier or Vin, more if they are 'average'), 2 years to master Electrum, 2-3 years to master Tin (like Spook), and we are already at 9-11 years.
F-zink and F-gold won't need much practice I think, but if you want to use F-Iron to assist in high-speed maneuvering, you will need time again ~2-3 years at minimum, putting the estimate at 11-14 years.
And they basically ignored every other metal (so no detecting people with pinpoint accuracy using bronze, or practice with Duralumin for any tricks etc.).

Kal has 2 years, and has no advantage of having trainers with his powers (like all the Mistings and Mistborn, and Ferring/Feruchemist did), so he had to rediscover everything from scratch. Give Windrunner 11-14 years with trainers, and they will outclass Kaladin by quite a margin I expect.

Fine. Just don't go to concrete buildings. 

For space:

Spoiler

W is windrunner, X is a piece of metal, F is fullborn, R is reverse lashing.

If 
                    R
F   X             W         X

Then RL protects the windrunner. But if instead:
                   R
F                  W         

                             X

Then when the Fullborn pulls on it, it will arc into the windrunner due to RL. A simple helmet, some boots, and a sheild should be enough to protect the windrunner, but a single RL isn't. A single RL and dodging could work, but then you have to worry about the following situation and similar ones: (though 3d, not mearly 2d)
                  X
           X             X
F   X          W            X
          X              X
                  X

C-tin allows one to selectively get to Spook levels of perception without worrying about loud sounds. Even if you go deaf/blind/etc, you can tap for it back.

If Windrunner doesn't enter building, then the fullborn can leave inconspicuously. No airstrike happens on fullborn. Then it turns into a game of cat and mouse.

If we say a year for compounding, I get 2 years to master every 2 and learn 6 others. that's 1 year for every 4 powers you have. An aditional year for for the final mastery, and you get 6 years of training. that's about what you got for windrunner. I agree that max skill fullborn vs max skill windrunner is disingenuous, but this isn't. 6 years for training is all that's needed.

[therunner Seer]

7 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I would say your fast twitch muscles may not get into position any faster than what they can get into position with F zinc but the strength that it does offer is that every reaction will be the most optimal.  Like running a chess engine and choosing the optimal move every time.  

Zinc isn't powerful because it gets you into position faster.  Its powerful because every move it closer to a winning position than the one before.  Combine that with Allomantic pewter or F steel all you want and you still have a person who's reactions and processing are far beyond what a normal person can do.  

To return to a chess analogy... zinc alone would be like Magnus Carlson having a 10 minute clock va Magnus Carlson having a 1 minute clock... add in the powers to amp up your fast twitch speed and you only amplify that time difference. 

F-Zinc let's you think faster, but it does not just lead you to optimal moves.
It's not Magnus Carlsen having more time, is average chess player having more time to think (which can sometimes be useful, and sometimes not).

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How?  The only difference is that Vin is not a feruchemist.  If she had access to feruchemy in that metalmind she would have instantly known what was possible.  

Vin says she could sense there was a power there she just couldn't touch it.  That wasn't for lack of feruchemy even.  That was 100% lack of identity.  We know that if you can access a metalmind identity wise you could burn it and gain the benefits of compounded attributes (or maybe it is better to say that you would have the ability to fuel that attribute with the allomantic power from the spiritual realm). 

Had Sazeds metalmind been identityless it would have worked.   And if Vin had the feruchemy to store her own attribute and then burn it she would have known as well. 

I don't know, but if it was that simple, then Inquisitors should have realized it trivially soon. Yet somehow they did not, despite having more then a year and Ruin was guiding them.
Per WoB Intent is very important https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98/#e850 , so maybe you have to at least know what you are realmatically doing?

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Wax went through the mental process of breaking down that bullet and cartridge.  This is just another point to F zinc.  He would be able to process out those thoughts far faster and would likely be far more efficient with zinc due to being able to process all of that information even faster.  Working through every scenario in the time he chooses to make his muscles do what he wants.  

Yeah with that aspect it would help, however doing it to multiple objects , while still planning?

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Sure a mistborn isn't as skilled in specific metals as a misting but there is no questioning in combat the mistborn wins 99% of the time because even a more basic understanding of each metal has so much synergy with the others.  

Oh, Mistborn would win in a fight against Misting, but that does not make them more skilled then the Misting in the given metal.

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The real argument is that noone really knows what is possible for anyone at the 5th heightening.  For all we know you only achieve the 5th heightening when it is time for you to die. 

5th Ideal, not Heightening.
And no, Radiants did reach in past, and one is actually living at the moment. Nale is of 5th Ideal.

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In all seriousness I feel like any RL with the intent of blocking a projectile does little more than create a new anchor point for the fullborn.  You have a guy who can become as heavy or as light as they want and you are carrying a shield to stop the incoming metal.  To RL it to a wall or the ground would be more ideal as the windrunner at least isn't carrying a moving anchor for the fullborn... but it does open up more mobility options for the fullborn.  To RL it to a held shield would be a poor option as the fullborn could increase their weight 10 or 20 fold and then toss the windrunner like a ragdoll, plus whatever damage a projectile being flung where the power of the push comes from the size of the individual would deal.  

You do realize that Windrunner can cancel RL, or drop the item and then start new one?

But yeah, it would possibly grant one anchor for Fullborn to use that is attached to Windrunner, temporarily. Since now we are considering Windrunner of 5th ideal without Plate that is a problem.

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

Wax was standing still. And with F-zinc you can act faster,as if signal transfer is negligible, and thought process normally takes let's say 200 ms, then by using F-zinc you reduce that time to whatever compression you use. So you can start reacting 300 ms faster with your normal muscle speed. That's something. and F-zinc allows you to predict your opponent moves base on his early moves, so that another few dozens of milliseconds that you can start reacting faster. Still with F-steel it's much better.

Sure, you can decide to take action in the compressed time, reducing it. However, in combat you don't think about your actions you just do them on instinct (if trained well enough) and F-Zinc won't help there.
And against most opponents I would agree it lets you partially predict the move, however, Windrunner has shapeshifting weapon which can vanish and reappaer immediatly (Skipping) which complicates prediction.

Quote

Yeah, but Rioter can only practice when he's with other people, Thug can do it mostly when he's physically engaged or in a fight. Mistborn/Fullborn can juggle his training all the time, with extra help of zinc, electrum, and endless bronze. Misting will likely be better, but Mistborn/Fullborn has more opportunities to explore his powers in different circumstances that Misting can never explore, focus on them with a combination of other powers and achieve something different than simple Misting can never achieve.

Limitation for Rioter and Thug both apply to Fullborn no? They cannot train those aspect without other involvement.
I agree that Mistborn/Fullborn can focus on synergies, e.g. what Kelsier did with steel/Iron. I just object that they can apply that level of mastery to all or even most of their powers.

Quote

You know it's pointless to argue about it? This whole argument is so pointless that I don't even know why it's happening.

I don't think it is pointless to point out that ability to split metal-lines is rare and difficult to acquire, much less master.
We have seen only two characters that can do it, one who learned it quickly (Kelsier), and one who despite decades of practice only demonstrates it twice to my knowledge (Wax).
And both were chosen by a Shard in some sense (Preservation -> 'Survive!' for Kelsier, and Harmony for our favorite Sword). No one else, not even Vin, showed that skill.

If we are going in that direction, then Windrunner can do what Kaladin showed in duel, the 'semi-atium' effect of dodging without seeing. It could be partially Investiture related (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9572) and WoK Prime spoilers

Spoiler

Using ability to sense wind to move and dodge with supernatural skill was explicit power of Windrunners in that book.

Quote

Fulborn being as skilled as Kelsier - why not? It only took a few years for Kelsier to become like this, most Mistborn trained far longer during era 1. Making steel bubbles like Wax? Why not? Others do them as well. Wax already used F-iron to change speed during steel pushing, so why not playing a bit more with it? That is still not a Rashek level of skill, whatever it might look like.

Kelsier chosen by Preservation? Wax chosen by Harmony? (though steelbubble is shown by others as well).

But sure, we can go that way.

So Windrunner can create vacuum, or hurricane-level wind currents around themselves (helps with steel pushed items), and has increase ability to dodge via sensing wind nearby.

Quote

With bronze I agree, and I've never claimed Windrunner can't protect himself with reverse lashings, he can, with 2 shields in both of his hands, which would reduce his offensive abilities a bit (he can drop them to engage so that's not a problem). This would protect him from all directions, and render Fullborn's offensive push and pull on metal useless. With 1 shield Fullborn can still pull on metals behind Radiant, that is on the opposite side of his shield, and this metal would be reverse lashed to that shield through Radiant's body. It doesn't even have to be a shield, wooden plank, trash can cover, brick or whatever he picks up from the ground.

You don't need two shields, just one held in hand off to the side. Fullborn can attack only from front or back, and this will shield from both.

2 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Fine. Just don't go to concrete buildings.

So Windrunner can use concrete building to get a respite from Fullborn and plan ahead.

Quote

For space:

  Hide contents

W is windrunner, X is a piece of metal, F is fullborn, R is reverse lashing.

If 
                    R
F   X             W         X

Then RL protects the windrunner. But if instead:
                   R
F                  W         

                             X

Then when the Fullborn pulls on it, it will arc into the windrunner due to RL. A simple helmet, some boots, and a sheild should be enough to protect the windrunner, but a single RL isn't. A single RL and dodging could work, but then you have to worry about the following situation and similar ones: (though 3d, not mearly 2d)
                  X
           X             X
F   X          W            X
          X              X
                  X

 

You do realize Windrunner can move and is not blind?
Also, why not create RL with range ~2 meters at most but great strength? Then this tactic would not be feasible. Sure it would not be fool-proof, but it would work well enough to let Windrunner bum-rush Fullborn with Shardblade.

Quote

C-tin allows one to selectively get to Spook levels of perception without worrying about loud sounds. Even if you go deaf/blind/etc, you can tap for it back.

Ah, good point on selectivity.
Though you would have to store and compound A-Tin senses, which however should not be issue.

Quote

If Windrunner doesn't enter building, then the fullborn can leave inconspicuously. No airstrike happens on fullborn. Then it turns into a game of cat and mouse.

Then you can leave spren to guard the building, they are invisible.
Though spren have no way to signal back to Radiant :/

Quote

If we say a year for compounding, I get 2 years to master every 2 and learn 6 others. that's 1 year for every 4 powers you have. An aditional year for for the final mastery, and you get 6 years of training. that's about what you got for windrunner. I agree that max skill fullborn vs max skill windrunner is disingenuous, but this isn't. 6 years for training is all that's needed.

2 years to master 2 powers? What? Starting to master powers takes 2 years, and even then you cannot still do stuff like e.g. steelbubble.
In 6 years Fullborn will be at most like Kel with steel/iron (and that is if they have natural talent for it), and one or two other metals. With rest they will be 'basic' user who can use the 'basic' functionality but nothing fancy.
In 6 years Windrunner will be more skilled then Kaladin is by a long shot.

Edited March 22 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine Silent Gatherer]

53 minutes ago, therunner said:

F-Zinc let's you think faster, but it does not just lead you to optimal moves.
It's not Magnus Carlsen having more time, is average chess player having more time to think (which can sometimes be useful, and sometimes not).

Are both fighters at their most average selves or are they both in their prime? Either way you have 2 people who are extremely skilled at killing their enemies and one of them gets to play on a 10 minute clock where the other has a 1 minute clock.  This is going to have a huge benefit to the one with the time to think through each move. The only way that time split difference doesn't matter is if the odds are a total monkey vs someone with basic understanding of how things work.  The guy who can process 10x the amount of info in the same timeframe is going to have a large advantage.

54 minutes ago, therunner said:

Ah, good point on selectivity.
Though you would have to store and compound A-Tin senses, which however should not be issue.

This is far more important when combined with f zinc.  As stated before, Spook likened his abilities to being the closest thing to atium. We know any form of precog is so potent that atium gets banned from these discussions in the first post or two of all of these discussions. Take Spook level senses minus any downsides plus 10x the processing power and you are pushing into serious precog territory. That isnt even counting compounded chromium as well which is, for what we know, straight precog without shadows... just the spidey senses of the world. 

Fullborn isnt just spiderman... it is spiderman + daredevil + the hulk + Dr. Strange with the timestone. 

Fighting the Hulk with spidey and sonar sense along with the ability to pull a Dr. Strange thinking out all of the possible scenarios and knowing exactly what one would give them the best chance?  

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Yeah with that aspect it would help, however doing it to multiple objects , while still planning?

Again, I think you underestimate the power of F zinc. We have already beaten the fact that rocking 10-20x normal for a fairly extended duration is trivial for a compounder. To know exactly when you have to move and exactly how far to move. To be able to do all of the processing at that speed... even without steel and just being enhanced by combining pewter, along with F iron weaving to mix up speeds and movements... the fullborn will be nearly untouchable. 

54 minutes ago, therunner said:

5th Ideal, not Heightening.
And no, Radiants did reach in past, and one is actually living at the moment. Nale is of 5th Ideal.

Revisiting a topic on a time crunch can lead to small mistakes.  Don't worry I am well aware we are talking about Radiants. Nale is of the 5th ideal but he is also a cognitive shadow and shouldn't be taken as the standard what 5th ideal means or can do.  If spren can be given the commands from range to utilize any surge you would think Nale wouldn't need to show up to kill truthwatchers in training or chase down little kid edgedancers right?  Just command a spren to vaporize the subject from afar anyways.  

53 minutes ago, therunner said:

2 years to master 2 powers? What? Starting to master powers takes 2 years, and even then you cannot still do stuff like e.g. steelbubble.
In 6 years Fullborn will be at most like Kel with steel/iron (and that is if they have natural talent for it), and one or two other metals. With rest they will be 'basic' user who can use the 'basic' functionality but nothing fancy.
In 6 years Windrunner will be more skilled then Kaladin is by a long shot.

This point is beyond moot.  How was the fullborn created?  Either via the mega millions powerball winning genetics, via being born a feruchemist and then receiving lerasium, or recently spiked for all of their powers. Lerasium level mistborn might not have as much finesse but they would make up for it in raw power. Natural born fullborn have their entire lives to practice and learn their abilities. Radiants have precisely the amount of time from the oath that first unlocked that portion of their abilities. 

Unless our fullborn in question is a freshly created hemalurgic construct with more spikes than Death himself... this argument is far from genuine as well. 

54 minutes ago, therunner said:

You do realize that Windrunner can cancel RL, or drop the item and then start new one?

But yeah, it would possibly grant one anchor for Fullborn to use that is attached to Windrunner, temporarily. Since now we are considering Windrunner of 5th ideal without Plate that is a problem.

I am quite curious about the mechanics to RL.  Does the windrunner need to make contact with the object they are setting the reverse lashing up on? Do they need contact to retrieve the stormlight that is holding the bond? 

Besides the point here, but if a fullborn slams a coin into a held object it really doesnt matter if you drop the RL so long as the fullborn is a few thousand lbs and continuing the shove.  You are still going to get sent the other way.  Once they stop pushing that might fall but you are still just dropping their weapon for them to push and pull on some more. 

 

 

 

[Karger Unmade]

Assuming sufficient prep time I really don't see how the radiant wins.  Wouldn't the fullborn just decide things through raw physical ability?  Radiant physical abilities are way more limited by comparison.

[therunner Seer]

9 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Are both fighters at their most average selves or are they both in their prime? Either way you have 2 people who are extremely skilled at killing their enemies and one of them gets to play on a 10 minute clock where the other has a 1 minute clock.  This is going to have a huge benefit to the one with the time to think through each move. The only way that time split difference doesn't matter is if the odds are a total monkey vs someone with basic understanding of how things work.  The guy who can process 10x the amount of info in the same timeframe is going to have a large advantage.

I assumed we expect them to be 'average' in skill, but sure we can expect them both to be extremely skilled.

9 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This is far more important when combined with f zinc.  As stated before, Spook likened his abilities to being the closest thing to atium. We know any form of precog is so potent that atium gets banned from these discussions in the first post or two of all of these discussions. Take Spook level senses minus any downsides plus 10x the processing power and you are pushing into serious precog territory. That isnt even counting compounded chromium as well which is, for what we know, straight precog without shadows... just the spidey senses of the world.

Spook never experienced atium, so he cannot really make that statement with any weight.
They were impressive yes, however Windrunner has similar skill as Kaladin in arena showed.

Compounded-Chromium is a big wild card, on one hand C-Chromium could beat Atium burner, but it can also be just gut instinct, which is not fool proof (you know something is wrong but not what).

9 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Fullborn isnt just spiderman... it is spiderman + daredevil + the hulk + Dr. Strange with the timestone.

I'd say spider-man+daredevil is the closest, with a dash of Flash (pun intended) and limited Magneto.
Hulk has strength far beyond what compounder could do for more then second at a time, and Dr. Strange is just completely different ball game. Bondsmith is your Dr.Strange.

9 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Again, I think you underestimate the power of F zinc. We have already beaten the fact that rocking 10-20x normal for a fairly extended duration is trivial for a compounder. To know exactly when you have to move and exactly how far to move. To be able to do all of the processing at that speed... even without steel and just being enhanced by combining pewter, along with F iron weaving to mix up speeds and movements... the fullborn will be nearly untouchable.

Do you realize that people don't think about moving?
They can plan what they want to do with F-zinc, but the execution will not be sped up in any way, or perfect in any way (A-pewter notwithstanding).
I can know exactly what I need to do, and in theory have the physical capability, but that does not mean I will be able to execute it.
Again we saw F-Zinc at something like ~100x factor  in BoM, and it was not anything like what you are describing.

9 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Revisiting a topic on a time crunch can lead to small mistakes.  Don't worry I am well aware we are talking about Radiants. Nale is of the 5th ideal but he is also a cognitive shadow and shouldn't be taken as the standard what 5th ideal means or can do.  If spren can be given the commands from range to utilize any surge you would think Nale wouldn't need to show up to kill truthwatchers in training or chase down little kid edgedancers right?  Just command a spren to vaporize the subject from afar anyways. 

I never said anything about 5th Ideal giving commands to spren to utilize surges.
Also, Nale needed to present charges to the Radiant before killing them, and I am not sure if he could deputize his spren in that way (what with recognized nationality).

Also, 5th Ideal is still a thing that Radiants achieved, and we have no evidence it would lead to death like you claimed.

9 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 This point is beyond moot.  How was the fullborn created?  Either via the mega millions powerball winning genetics, via being born a feruchemist and then receiving lerasium, or recently spiked for all of their powers. Lerasium level mistborn might not have as much finesse but they would make up for it in raw power. Natural born fullborn have their entire lives to practice and learn their abilities. Radiants have precisely the amount of time from the oath that first unlocked that portion of their abilities.

No it is not moot
How Fullborn was created is either born/shardic intervention/lerasium (maybe), TLM spoiler

Spoiler

Spikes would no longer work, as they don't allow compounding anymore

But even if they were born, it would take time before the snapped into their powers, so they would start training soonest at ~15 ish years.
Windrunner does have only time from Oath, but I thought we are assuming parity, i.e. Windrunner with equal training time to Fullborn with equal training+compounding time.

Windrunner then will always be more skilled in their powerset than Fullborn.

9 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I am quite curious about the mechanics to RL.  Does the windrunner need to make contact with the object they are setting the reverse lashing up on? Do they need contact to retrieve the stormlight that is holding the bond? 

Besides the point here, but if a fullborn slams a coin into a held object it really doesnt matter if you drop the RL so long as the fullborn is a few thousand lbs and continuing the shove.  You are still going to get sent the other way.  Once they stop pushing that might fall but you are still just dropping their weapon for them to push and pull on some more.

Yep, as far as we know contact is necessary for RL, though in RoW it held briefly  even after Kaladin broke contact (if I remember right).
It is also the least Stormlight intesive, so retrieving it afterwards won't be necessary.

Sure Windrunner would get shoved, but they can lash themselves in reaction and counter that push that way.

8 hours ago, Karger said:

Assuming sufficient prep time I really don't see how the radiant wins.  Wouldn't the fullborn just decide things through raw physical ability?  Radiant physical abilities are way more limited by comparison.

Complete Fullborn yes, that was discussed up until page 4. Then we took away F-steel since most arguments just devolved to 'Fullborn faster', to see how that goes, and then we continued with additional modifiers.

And Fullborn is also limited to the metal they can carry on/in person, which limits the amount of attribute they have available at any given moment. How much that is question (I maintain that based on some guesswork + what BoM show, that Fullborn could conceivably carry ~2000 years for all attributes at most).

Edited March 23 by therunner

[StanLemon Worldbringer]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Complete Fullborn yes, that was discussed up until page 4. Then we took away F-steel since most arguments just devolved to 'Fullborn faster', to see how that goes, and then we continued with additional modifiers.

And Fullborn is also limited to the metal they can carry on/in person, which limits the amount of attribute they have available at any given moment. How much that is question (I maintain that based on some guesswork + what BoM show, that Fullborn could conceivably carry ~2000 years for all attributes at most).

Even without F-Steel, a Fullborn is stronger than Plate, heavier than Plate when necessary, heals faster than any Windrunner, Sazed’s fight with Marsh shows F-Zinc does in fact help in fights as it speeds up thought and Sazed had very little of the attribute, one touch with Chromium drains a Radiant of their Stormlight, is as nimble as anyone we've ever seen in Plate, time bubbles to confuse and reposition in an instant, and I can go on. F-Steel makes the argument of who wins moot, but even without F-Steel, Fullborn still have a decent number of advantages. 

[therunner Seer]

37 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Even without F-Steel, a Fullborn is stronger than Plate, heavier than Plate when necessary, heals faster than any Windrunner, Sazed’s fight with Marsh shows F-Zinc does in fact help in fights as it speeds up thought and Sazed had very little of the attribute, one touch with Chromium drains a Radiant of their Stormlight, is as nimble as anyone we've ever seen in Plate, time bubbles to confuse and reposition in an instant, and I can go on. F-Steel makes the argument of who wins moot, but even without F-Steel, Fullborn still have a decent number of advantages. 

Fullborn can be stronger than plate, for some time sure, heavier the same (though that will be only useful when pushing against something WIndrunner is holding).

Healing is probably on-par (e.g falling 6 meters Miles healed as the legs broke, Kaladin lashing himself multiple times and falling ~1.something meters broke both legs and healed them fast enough no one noticed on 2nd Oath while possibly falling faster and landing harder then Miles did), Kaladin healed having his spine severed multiple times (as in dozens) fast enough that in between two stabs the spine nearly go healed on 3rd Oath. By 5th they will be healing even faster and more efficiently.

Chromium won't drain Radiant immediately, it still takes time, and Fullborn never encountered anyone as Invested as Windrunner (maybe compounder tapping massive amounts of attribute, but possibly not even that). (and that requires Fullborn breaking plate first, or WIndrunner not having it summoned for some reason).

I do agree that even without F-steel Fullborn has advantages, question is, are they as overwhelming?

Also, could you give a page or chapter number for Sazed fighting Marsh? I would like to take a look.

Edited March 23 by therunner

[StanLemon Worldbringer]

11 minutes ago, therunner said:

Also, could you give a page or chapter number for Sazed fighting Marsh? I would like to take a look.

I don't have my physical copy on hand right now, so I can't give you the page, but it's chapter 58. He uses it only briefly to quickly figure out the trajectory of a lamp Marsh was manipulating.

F-Zinc speeds up mental processing power and allows for intuitive leaps, even if the Fullborn isn't thinking through every movement it would make the mental part of reaction time always faster than any Windrunner and combined with A-Pewter physical part of reaction time will be comparable to any Radiant. So a Fullborn will always have the advantage in reaction time. 

As far as healing goes, no Compounding is still shown to be better it still takes several moments for Kaladin's broken bones to heal, and it even took a few moments for it to heal a sprain as a 3rd Ideal Radiant. Miles on the other hand, healed his broken bones before they even finished breaking, that would require him to heal in a fraction of a second. And he took a blast of dynamite to the face and was fully healed almost instantly after.

[therunner Seer]

34 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

As far as healing goes, no Compounding is still shown to be better it still takes several moments for Kaladin's broken bones to heal, and it even took a few moments for it to heal a sprain as a 3rd Ideal Radiant. Miles on the other hand, healed his broken bones before they even finished breaking, that would require him to heal in a fraction of a second. And he took a blast of dynamite to the face and was fully healed almost instantly after.

Compounding healing can be faster, though that does not make it necessarily better.
Miles no longer feels pain, so for all we know when he is tapping usually the sprains/broken bones would still ache a bit afterwards.

And yeah, sprain took few moments to heal for 3rd Oath Kaladin, but couple moments later, severed spine also took only few moments to partially heal (space between two stabs). Also notable is that the sprain Kaladin had was only because Stormlight strengthened his body enough that he didn't break bones despite falling. So there Miles would break bones and heal immediately, 3rd Oath Windrunner would not break bones at all (up to some point of course).
Perhaps speed of Stormlight healing is proportional to severity of wound? Otherwise it does not make much sense.

34 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I don't have my physical copy on hand right now, so I can't give you the page, but it's chapter 58. He uses it only briefly to quickly figure out the trajectory of a lamp Marsh was manipulating.

F-Zinc speeds up mental processing power and allows for intuitive leaps, even if the Fullborn isn't thinking through every movement it would make the mental part of reaction time always faster than any Windrunner and combined with A-Pewter physical part of reaction time will be comparable to any Radiant. So a Fullborn will always have the advantage in reaction time.

Thanks, so there all Sazed does is realize the lamp is going to be used as weapon by Marsh, not much of a leap of though.
Immediately afterwards he taps F-steel as well, seemingly releasing F-zinc or using both at once.

So far we have not yet seen those intuitive leaps, though in battle I don't think those will be useful much? Especially against Windrunner, whose powers are quite obvious.

Edited March 23 by therunner

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

16 hours ago, therunner said:

Sure, you can decide to take action in the compressed time, reducing it. However, in combat you don't think about your actions you just do them on instinct (if trained well enough) and F-Zinc won't help there.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Do you realize that people don't think about moving?
They can plan what they want to do with F-zinc, but the execution will not be sped up in any way, or perfect in any way (A-pewter notwithstanding).
I can know exactly what I need to do, and in theory have the physical capability, but that does not mean I will be able to execute it.
Again we saw F-Zinc at something like ~100x factor  in BoM, and it was not anything like what you are describing.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Thanks, so there all Sazed does is realize the lamp is going to be used as weapon by Marsh, not much of a leap of though.
Immediately afterwards he taps F-steel as well, seemingly releasing F-zinc or using both at once.

So far we have not yet seen those intuitive leaps, though in battle I don't think those will be useful much? Especially against Windrunner, whose powers are quite obvious.

I don't know how you can constantly downplay the importance of F-zinc. From Coppermind, based on Ars Arcanum and Sazed:

Quote

A zinc Ferring is known as a Sparker. Zinc is used to store mental speed. It allows the Sparker to think very quickly and come to conclusions faster. While filling a zincmind, the Sparker will be dull-witted and slow.^[3] Storing does not affect the Sparker's ability to take in physical information, but it does increase the time it takes to process that information. For example, a Sparker filling their zincmind will perceive words without delay, but will take longer to parse their meaning.^[17] Tapping zinc has the odd side effect of making the user hungry.^[18]

Which is exactly what I'm talking about. F-zinc changes the speed of processing information of your brain. While you don't "plan" in your mind your next step, your mind does it, it processes information about the ground you're going to put your foot on, how steep it is, how slippery it is, how soft, hot to balance your body, and many other parameters so you can properly place your foot on that ground - all of that in a fraction of a second, without you even knowing what's happening. That's what F-zinc will speed up or slow down. Processing time. That's why it will change your reaction time, as a big factor of it is your brain processing time. The faster your processing time, the earlier your muscles will start to move in response.  But your muscles still move normally and slowly, but they started moving a bit earlier, because your brain didn't need that much time to process information.

In combat, you have been training for years to instinctively respond to outside stimuli in a certain way, you did it to shorten your reaction time by both developing your muscle strength, and importantly, shortening your brain processing time.Your brain still processes those stimuli, but was trained to respond in a certain way, so it will react faster. Even muscle memory still works by information being processed in your brain.

Spoiler

Oversleep

In the prologue to the Hero Of Ages, Marsh is using a brass spike when spiking the Keeper.

Why brass? It would allow to steal only Feruchemical Mental powers (memories, wakefulness, mental speed... warmth or determination, that's unclear) and none of them seem particularly important to killing machines the Inquisitors are. Surely Feruchemical healing, or speed, or strength or even age would be more desirable power to steal?

Brandon Sanderson

You are underestimating mental speed. And, also, versatility.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 21, 2016)

 

Edited March 23 by alder24

[therunner Seer]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I don't know how you can constantly downplay the importance of F-zinc. From Coppermind, based on Ars Arcanum and Sazed:

Which is exactly what I'm talking about. F-zinc changes the speed of processing information of your brain. While you don't "plan" in your mind your next step, your mind does it, it processes information about the ground you're going to put your foot on, how steep it is, how slippery it is, how soft, hot to balance your body, and many other parameters so you can properly place your foot on that ground - all of that in a fraction of a second, without you even knowing what's happening. That's what F-zinc will speed up or slow down. Processing time. That's why it will change your reaction time, as a big factor of it is your brain processing time. The faster your processing time, the earlier your muscles will start to move in response.  But your muscles still move normally and slowly, but they started moving a bit earlier, because your brain didn't need that much time to process information.

In combat, you have been training for years to instinctively respond to outside stimuli in a certain way, you did it to shorten your reaction time by both developing your muscle strength, and importantly, shortening your brain processing time.Your brain still processes those stimuli, but was trained to respond in a certain way, so it will react faster. Even muscle memory still works by information being processed in your brain.

  Reveal hidden contents

Oversleep

In the prologue to the Hero Of Ages, Marsh is using a brass spike when spiking the Keeper.

Why brass? It would allow to steal only Feruchemical Mental powers (memories, wakefulness, mental speed... warmth or determination, that's unclear) and none of them seem particularly important to killing machines the Inquisitors are. Surely Feruchemical healing, or speed, or strength or even age would be more desirable power to steal?

Brandon Sanderson

You are underestimating mental speed. And, also, versatility.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 21, 2016)

 

Except we never saw F-zinc being used that way.
What we did see is that your conscious thoughts are sped up. Not unconscious processing time, not how quickly signals propagate, only conscious processing. Both Sazed and Wax only ever show that, and when actually needing to act on those thoughts need to tap F-steel.
And majority of time will still be spent on movement so without F-steel, F-zinc shaves off fractions of second at best, anything a minor speed or reflex  improvement completely negates. (or just natural variation)

It is useful, but it won't make you act perfectly or help with anything else but conscious thoughts.

And if Windrunner has ability to act on windcurrents, and so reacts before the movements become apparent, + enhances their movements that way as well, they get considerable boost to their offensive and defensive ability.

Edit: Here Brandon literally says that F-zinc does not change reaction time (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6398), and instead likens the F-zinc user to Ken Jennings (not exactly person known for their martial prowess).

Spoiler

Alteroden

With [Feruchemical] zinc, you get mental speed. How is that any different from [Feruchemical] steel, except without [physical] speed?

Brandon Sanderson

I think of the mental speed actually turning you into... Let's say you sped up your body, and you wanted to figure out some really complex equations.

Alteroden

So it lets you have intuitive leaps.

Brandon Sanderson

Right. It basically turns you into Ken Jennings. That's how I imagine it.

Kurkistan

So it's not like bullet time?

Brandon Sanderson

No... It'll bullet time a little bit, it certainly will, because you're thinking faster than everyone else, but it has applications beyond bullet timing. Bullet time is really--

Kurkistan

That’s steel’s thing?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s kind of steel's thing. They kind of overlap on that one, because the steel thing... But yeah. It's more like "I think fast, but my reaction speed is not sped up".

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

Edited March 23 by therunner

[StanLemon Worldbringer]

9 minutes ago, therunner said:

Except we never saw F-zinc being used that way.
What we did see is that your conscious thoughts are sped up. Not unconscious processing time, not how quickly signals propagate, only conscious processing. Both Sazed and Wax only ever show that, and when actually needing to act on those thoughts need to tap F-steel.
And majority of time will still be spent on movement so without F-steel, F-zinc shaves off fractions of second at best, anything a minor speed or reflex  improvement completely negates.

It is useful, but it won't make you act perfectly or help with anything else but conscious thoughts.

Relevant info from TLM

Spoiler

Wax considers speed of thought useful for feruchemical soldiers and considers it a dangerous ability. This heavily implies that it is a useful for combat, the most logical way being that because it increases reaction time and predictions.

Quote

Why weren’t there Feruchemical soldiers in the Malwish army with extremely heightened strength, mental speed, or other dangerous Feruchemical talents?

 

There is also the WoB where he likens Feruchemy to DnD uses and he would have F-Zinc give bonus to initiative and bonus to hit

[therunner Seer]

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Relevant info from TLM

  Reveal hidden contents

Wax considers speed of thought useful for feruchemical soldiers and considers it a dangerous ability. This heavily implies that it is a useful for combat, the most logical way being that because it increases reaction time and predictions.

 

There is also the WoB where he likens Feruchemy to DnD uses and he would have F-Zinc give bonus to initiative and bonus to hit

Soldier who can calmly assess situation will be better than one who can, sure.
In immediate life to death fight, that won't be as helpful.

And Brandon literally says that F-zinc won't help get better reaction time https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6398 , so it is not that.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine Silent Gatherer]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Except we never saw F-zinc being used that way.
What we did see is that your conscious thoughts are sped up. Not unconscious processing time, not how quickly signals propagate, only conscious processing. Both Sazed and Wax only ever show that, and when actually needing to act on those thoughts need to tap F-steel.
And majority of time will still be spent on movement so without F-steel, F-zinc shaves off fractions of second at best, anything a minor speed or reflex  improvement completely negates.

It is useful, but it won't make you act perfectly or help with anything else but conscious thoughts.

And if Windrunner has ability to act on windcurrents, and so reacts before the movements become apparent, + enhances their movements that way as well, they get considerable boost to their offensive and defensive ability.

Edit: Here Brandon literally says that F-zinc does not help with reaction time (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6398), and instead likens the F-zinc user to Ken Jennings (not exactly person known for their martial prowess).

  Hide contents

Alteroden

With [Feruchemical] zinc, you get mental speed. How is that any different from [Feruchemical] steel, except without [physical] speed?

Brandon Sanderson

I think of the mental speed actually turning you into... Let's say you sped up your body, and you wanted to figure out some really complex equations.

Alteroden

So it lets you have intuitive leaps.

Brandon Sanderson

Right. It basically turns you into Ken Jennings. That's how I imagine it.

Kurkistan

So it's not like bullet time?

Brandon Sanderson

No... It'll bullet time a little bit, it certainly will, because you're thinking faster than everyone else, but it has applications beyond bullet timing. Bullet time is really--

Kurkistan

That’s steel’s thing?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s kind of steel's thing. They kind of overlap on that one, because the steel thing... But yeah. It's more like "I think fast, but my reaction speed is not sped up".

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

Take that and apply it to someone who is trained and you have the optimal moves happening again.  1 million possibilities and only 1 works.  This action is step 1 to realizing that possibility.  Zinc does allow intuitive leaps.  Those leaps do cross over to martial application and combine with the enhanced senses to give the earliest and fastest responses possible in the most efficient way possible.  

Limitless fight scene in the train station. 

Every move is telegraphed in one way or another. The earlier you notice these telegraphed moves (via tin) the earlier you can process the next best step. 

51 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Relevant info from TLM

  Hide contents

Wax considers speed of thought useful for feruchemical soldiers and considers it a dangerous ability. This heavily implies that it is a useful for combat, the most logical way being that because it increases reaction time and predictions.

 

There is also the WoB where he likens Feruchemy to DnD uses and he would have F-Zinc give bonus to initiative and bonus to hit

This is exactly how the rules play in the MAG as well. 

In the MAG atium let's you choose your actions after everyone else and adds bonuses to each action and take those actions first. 

Compounded zinc doesn't add bonuses but it does allow you to choose your actions after everyone else in addition to taking your action whenever you so desire during the round and it allows you to infact change your action mid round if you so desire.  

(In the MAG each round is broken into an action declaring phase and then the actual rolling of dice.  Being able to choose what you want to do after everyone else is based on the players wit like an initiative roll. Zinc boosts wit and allows you to choose what you want to do to be the most efficient and effective option after your opponent chooses what they want to do. Being able to change your mind is punished by everyone except the person who has F zinc because of the intuitive leaps and ability to process all information at once.) 

 

This is all just the game mechanics... while not strictly cannon provides a Brandon approved thought process and idea of how the powers would work. 

46 minutes ago, therunner said:

Soldier who can calmly assess situation will be better than one who can, sure.
In immediate life to death fight, that won't be as helpful.

And Brandon literally says that F-zinc won't help get better reaction time https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6398 , so it is not that.

I feel like the argument against zinc is that you aren't fast enough or don't have enough time to do anything about it. You are still pewter enhanced with tin feeding information faster than normal (Spook was able to outmanuever a pewterarm without being a trained fighter and just off of his early sensory mechanisms alone!) 

You also have F iron to play around with and Wax stays lower weight just for the nimbleness... add that ontop of the pewter enhancements and zinc is totally worth tapping in combat. 

All of this is not even to mention that you could well be burning electrum and compounding chromium as well.  

Perhaps zinc isnt the I win button on its own but take 2 totally equal people in speed strength and martial know how and give just 1 of them Feruchemical zinc and that person is going to pull off the W more often than not. 

Edited March 23 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[therunner Seer]

13 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I feel like the argument against zinc is that you aren't fast enough or don't have enough time to do anything about it. You are still pewter enhanced with tin feeding information faster than normal (Spook was able to outmanuever a pewterarm without being a trained fighter and just off of his early sensory mechanisms alone!) 

You also have F iron to play around with and Wax stays lower weight just for the nimbleness... add that ontop of the pewter enhancements and zinc is totally worth tapping in combat.

Yeah, but opponent here is also enhanced (Stormlight providing the same plethora of enhancement as A-pewter, without strength but with healing) and can make themselves lighter (quarter lashing upwards).

Spook by that point was fighting quite often if I recall right, so while not formally trained he had practice.

Quote

All of this is not even to mention that you could well be burning electrum and compounding chromium as well. 

Yeah, those two would help a lot, especially F-zinc + A-electrum would make it not 'poor man's Atium' but more like 'middle class man Atium'.

But my whole point in discussing this is that F-Zinc does not improve reflexes on its own, nor will it let you pick the perfect course of action on its own.
It will help a bit, by giving you more space to think about stuff and notice thing about opponent, but that is that.

Quote

Perhaps zinc isnt the I win button on its own but take 2 totally equal people in speed strength and martial know how and give just 1 of them Feruchemical zinc and that person is going to pull off the W more often than not. 

That is something I can agree with, it will give you edge. What I am saying is that it won't turn 50:50 into 99:1, but more like into 65:35.

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine Silent Gatherer]

4 minutes ago, therunner said:

Yeah, but opponent here is also enhanced (Stormlight providing the same plethora of enhancement as A-pewter, without strength but with healing) and can make themselves lighter (quarter lashing upwards).

Spook by that point was fighting quite often if I recall right, so while not formally trained he had practice.

Yeah, those two would help a lot, especially F-zinc + A-electrum would make it not 'poor man's Atium' but more like 'middle class man Atium'.

But my whole point in discussing this is that F-Zinc does not improve reflexes on its own, nor will it let you pick the perfect course of action on its own.
It will help a bit, by giving you more space to think about stuff and notice thing about opponent, but that is that.

That is something I can agree with, it will give you edge. What I am saying is that it won't turn 50:50 into 99:1, but more like into 65:35.

 

I think we can agree that zinc may not be the one stop shop that steel is.  That much is obvious.  Zinc in the case of fullborn vs windrunner certainly will play a role because it offers synergy with all of the other powers. 

As for 65:35 or whatever number we want to toss out.  That is the whole point of feruchemy. Tap more gain more.  

Intuition and intuitive leaps are what zinc does.  We can stop thinking of it as a process of running through millions of possibilities (my lack of understanding here).  It isn't just that you are thinking through and choosing the best options from a catalog of options.  It is that your brain comes to those realizations on its own. 

Zinc would likely be most useful for figuring out the actions outside of the more immediate melee combat (though it still plays a huge role there due to the plethora of other enhancements and sensory benefits). 

Zinc is going to allow the fullborn to adjust space and timing and likely take the edge off of any taunting moves and feigns that the windrunner may attempt.  

Zinc will keep the fullborn calm and collected as they will know what the immediate threats are and what are not as well as creating intuitive leaps working through any problem-solving that may arise from range / surge specific attacks.  

[therunner Seer]

59 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think we can agree that zinc may not be the one stop shop that steel is.  That much is obvious.  Zinc in the case of fullborn vs windrunner certainly will play a role because it offers synergy with all of the other powers. 

As for 65:35 or whatever number we want to toss out.  That is the whole point of feruchemy. Tap more gain more.  

Intuition and intuitive leaps are what zinc does.  We can stop thinking of it as a process of running through millions of possibilities (my lack of understanding here).  It isn't just that you are thinking through and choosing the best options from a catalog of options.  It is that your brain comes to those realizations on its own.

I don't agree with that, you will run into wall eventually.
I mean, Wax tapped enough F-zinc to think about multiple options in between two words Edwarn was saying. He tapped like ~100x fold multiplication. And no intuitive leaps to be found.

The intuitive leaps is wording not from Brandon, but from the person asking the question, and in response to that Brandon likens user of F-Zinc to Ken Jennings (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6398). So it lets you piece together clues fast, but you still have to do the thinking.
Brandon himself never describes F-Zinc as allowing intuive leaps, and only ever talks about it in terms of increased processing speed of thought.

E.g. F-Zinc user could not come up with Diagram, because all F-zinc gives you is processing speed, whereas Taravangian had actually increased intelligence. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/182/#e3845)

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Zinc would likely be most useful for figuring out the actions outside of the more immediate melee combat (though it still plays a huge role there due to the plethora of other enhancements and sensory benefits). 

Zinc is going to allow the fullborn to adjust space and timing and likely take the edge off of any taunting moves and feigns that the windrunner may attempt.  

Zinc will keep the fullborn calm and collected as they will know what the immediate threats are and what are not as well as creating intuitive leaps working through any problem-solving that may arise from range / surge specific attacks.  

That I can broadly agree with. Useful for assessing situation outside of immediate combat, helping keep calm and collected, analyzing moves of Windrunner.

The second (adjust space and timing) would depend on F-Steel though, since Fullborn could not act on that information without it.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine Silent Gatherer]

4 minutes ago, therunner said:

I don't agree with that, you will run into wall eventually.
I mean, Wax tapped enough F-zinc to think about multiple options in between two words Edwarn was saying. He tapped like ~100x fold multiplication. And no intuitive leaps to be found.

The intuitive leaps is wording not from Brandon, but from the person asking the question, and in response to that Brandon likens user of F-Zinc to Ken Jennings (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6398). So it lets you piece together clues fast, but you still have to do the thinking.
Brandon himself never describes F-Zinc as allowing intuive leaps, and only ever talks about it in terms of increased processing speed of thought.

E.g. F-Zinc user could not come up with Diagram, because all F-zinc gives you is processing speed, whereas Taravangian had actually increased intelligence. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/182/#e3845)

That I can broadly agree with. Useful for assessing situation outside of immediate combat, helping keep calm and collected, analyzing moves of Windrunner.

The second (adjust space and timing) would depend on F-Steel though, since Fullborn could not act on that information without it.

So progressing speed is the reaction. Amount of time for information to go from point A to point B and be useful.  I don't think F steel is the only way to get use out of F zinc. 

Connor McGregor with Feruchemical zinc vs Connor McGregor without Feruchemical zinc is going to go in the favor of the zinc user far far more often than the dumb luck you would have to have to win without it. 

[therunner Seer]

29 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So progressing speed is the reaction. Amount of time for information to go from point A to point B and be useful.  I don't think F steel is the only way to get use out of F zinc.

No processing speed is how fast you concisously think, not how fast you react.
Brandon explicitly stated that F-Zinc does not improve reaction time.

In combat, most of the use of F-zinc would require F-steel (and we also see it used in such way). You think up something using F-zinc and then try and execute that.

29 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Connor McGregor with Feruchemical zinc vs Connor McGregor without Feruchemical zinc is going to go in the favor of the zinc user far far more often than the dumb luck you would have to have to win without it. 

Yes, that is what I said above.

Edited March 23 by therunner

[Frustration Stormfather]

I was just thinking the other day, we've been using pressure manipulation to create vacuums, but what if we raised the pressure instead, creating walls of air around the Fullborn.