Jump to content

Fullborn V.S. 5th Ideal Windrunners


Wits instant noodles

Fullborn V.S. 5th Ideal Windrunners  

56 members have voted

  1. 1. Who would win a Fullborn or a 5th ideal Windrunner



Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Yes, the second object would be more dense in every practical sense and physical sense.

I thought about continuing to argue about density, as in order to add mass you have to add 'something', particles or energy, into a constant volume to increase density. So there is more 'something' in the same volume. Because density is defined as the ratio of the amount of 'something' in a volume.

But frankly I'm too tired to

At the end of the day, all our equations in physics are reliant on how things work in our world. Investiture's mere existence breaks that. I don't expect this to in any way be an accurate formula as I'm throwing it off the cuff, its just to get the point across. But hypothetically, in a world with Iron Feruchemy the mass/density formula gets replaced with this to account for Investiture. 

   p=density 

   m=mass

   V=volume

   I=Investiture factor. >1 when tapping, <1 when storing 

   m=(p × V) x I

That equation would mathematically allow volume and density to remain the same while mass increases. This solves the whole issue that started the debate in the first place 

I'm sure none of this will change your opinion on anything. But as I said before, Feruchemy breaks the mass/density equation. Ultimately the math has to explain what's happening. If the equation can't explain what's happening then the equation is wrong. And iron Feruchemy proves the p=m/V equation wrong in the Cosmere. Not that there aren't a whole lot of other issues as ultimately Brandon makes decisions for narrative reasons. 

Edited by StanLemon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, therunner said:

However, because of increased density, the bullet has to do more work to penetrate you, so it would in-fact increase how hard it is to damage you.
At more extreme ends this alone would make you bulletproof, simply by conservation of momentum.
For example bone density increased 20x would make F-Iron feruchemists basically immune to headshots, even soft tissue would suddenly be denser than most armor.

Okay yep, this is definitely true. I think there might be some narrative wiggle room, like you say you would be bullet proof on the extreme ends. So perhaps the more subtle changes would allow for bullets to have a mostly indistinguishable effect. If a bullet goes right through you at normal density, even at twice or 3 times density it should probably still go through you. I think the main issue is with any blunt damage the bullets would do. Like they should still be able to break bones, but not crack them. I'm not sure what exactly the material properties are that make armor good, since generally this isn't something you have to worry about. I assume any part of your body that works to redistribute force would become significantly more effective at higher mass. Obviously this isn't true textually, so I'm essentially trying to reason through what exactly would need to be changed.

I almost wonder if it's a spirit web or identity thing. Like the investiture giving you a greater mass knows what it's effect should be, and only really applies that. So when you get shot by a bullet perhaps your identity intentionally makes your body weaker where the bullet is touching since it knows you shouldn't gain an advantage against it. This is extremely hand wavy and experimental but I think it makes a decent amount of sense in universe. It could be a potential understanding of the whole windrunner g-force problem thing too. Your physical body doesn't feel a force, but your identity or perhaps your connection to the planet tells you you should have felt one, and thus you do. We have definitely seen that identity and connection are capable of affecting things in the physical world, so I think this could be a decent understanding. It's certainly very "the magic handles it" but I like having the specific mechanism by which it is handled. It's certainly quite catch-all, but it just feels better to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I swear you guys make these threads just to watch people fight.

Obviously the Fullborn wins easily. You can't fight superspeed, it happens faster than you can think.

The only exception is if the Fullborn is Rashek, who is the most incompetent idiot to ever exist in the Cosmere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

The only exception is if the Fullborn is Rashek, who is the most incompetent idiot to ever exist in the Cosmere.

To be fair, he did have a thousand years of being the peak of power with no true threats. And it did take a literal deus ex machina to take him down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I swear you guys make these threads just to watch people fight.

It's fun for some of us.

10 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

The only exception is if the Fullborn is Rashek, who is the most incompetent idiot to ever exist in the Cosmere.

The guy got killed because of a force that he knew for a fact was almost dead chose Vin, and he removed the limiter on her power.

Vin was literally the only person on Scadrial, perhaps in the Cosmere who could have done what she did. He wasn't stupid, fate just conspired against him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's fun for some of us.

The guy got killed because of a force that he knew for a fact was almost dead chose Vin, and he removed the limiter on her power.

Vin was literally the only person on Scadrial, perhaps in the Cosmere who could have done what she did. He wasn't stupid, fate just conspired against him.

He could have just killed her at the onset, instead of going on a standard bad guy monologue.

Also dying to Vin was the least of his idiot maneuvers. Lets not forget that he had the power to reshape the world and instead of any one of a million thins he could have done to adapt humans to survive, he chose to make them really good at starving and then put up a bunch of volcanoes to block out the sun, (cause nothing ever goes wrong with volcanoes...) then proceed to have them enslaved, raped and tortured for 1000 years. I think I would have a hard time coming up with a worse plan TBH.

So yes, he was an absolute dunce.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

He could have just killed her at the onset, instead of going on a standard bad guy monologue.

But from his perspective what's the point? Killing her instantly or or taking his time, as far as he had any reason to believe she would die either way. He really had little to no reason to believe she'd actually threaten him

9 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Also dying to Vin was the least of his idiot maneuvers. Lets not forget that he had the power to reshape the world and instead of any one of a million thins he could have done to adapt humans to survive, he chose to make them really good at starving and then put up a bunch of volcanoes to block out the sun, (cause nothing ever goes wrong with volcanoes...) then proceed to have them enslaved, raped and tortured for 1000 years. I think I would have a hard time coming up with a worse plan TBH.

As Sazed put, he didn't know how to use the power at first so had a few panicked choices before he really learned to use the power delicately. And it's implied that Preservation's Intent prevented from undoing what he did, so he had to make new changes to compensate. As for his society though, he is petty and spiteful. But things were working fine for him, he liked it and no amount of uprisings could threaten his control. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

But from his perspective what's the point? Killing her instantly or or taking his time, as far as he had any reason to believe she would die either way. He really had little to no reason to believe she'd actually threaten him

As Sazed put, he didn't know how to use the power at first so had a few panicked choices before he really learned to use the power delicately. And it's implied that Preservation's Intent prevented from undoing what he did, so he had to make new changes to compensate. As for his society though, he is petty and spiteful. But things were working fine for him, he liked it and no amount of uprisings could threaten his control. 

Hubris is stupidity.

He couldn't undo what he had done, but what he did do by the end was pure idiocy. I think Ruin was what was stopping him from undoing his changes, kind of like with Vin. Not 100% sure about that though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, alder24 said:

They can, but they have nothing to attach it to while being airborne. If they are constantly showered by metal objects, they would have to stay close to walls/ground to constantly create reverse lashing surfaces, which would further limit their maneuverability. If they would pick up a wooden plank, it would soon be shredded to pieces, and it wouldn't be protected from objects pulled behind their back. Some metal objects on which they can apply reverse lashing can be pushed out of their hands, and still won't protect their back.

Why can't Windrunner have a simple shield in hand? Or just grab something?
Fullborn now has entire city to play with, there will be something that can be used as shield.

And it could be even metallic I think, since it would become infused by Reverse Lashing, making it more difficult to affect with pushes/pulls.
 

And it would protect their back as well, All they have to do is hold it in hand extended away from themselves. It would not be fool proof, however Reverse Lashing are seemingly strong enough to pull bullets, so pulled/pushed metallic objects will be trivial to get away from Radiant.

Quote

Spren can, but they are limited. I think there were instances, when Kal asked Syl if she saw something, and she answered him that she was distracted by being a Shardblade. Even when fighting Lezian, Syl was on a look out in her physical form. So Spren in physical form can help and inform Windrunner of Fullborn suddenly closing in, like Syl in OB battle warned Kal in the very last moment of Fused attacking him, sometimes too late for him to avoid it, but following Fullborn after he disappears from Windrunner's sight, that's too much.

I agree they are limited, however Windrunner's sight is not the same as spren's sight, so Fullborn has to disappear from both of them, and in such a way as to not be clear how to follow.

Basically, Fullborn is not fighting just one person, but two the entire time.

Of course, Windrunner could still try to avoid this guerilla style fight by flying above the roofs.

Quote

I thought about continuing to argue about density, as in order to add mass you have to add 'something', particles or energy, into a constant volume to increase density. So there is more 'something' in the same volume. Because density is defined as the ratio of the amount of 'something' in a volume.

In principle you don't have to though, if you can manipulate the fundamental constants, you can keep the same 'stuff' in volume (no adding anything) and just change how the stuff behaves. That would change mass, but also density as consequence.
That would be Brandon's explenation with the Higgs field (which however does not work on its own due to density).

10 hours ago, StanLemon said:

At the end of the day, all our equations in physics are reliant on how things work in our world. Investiture's mere existence breaks that. I don't expect this to in any way be an accurate formula as I'm throwing it off the cuff, its just to get the point across. But hypothetically, in a world with Iron Feruchemy the mass/density formula gets replaced with this to account for Investiture. 

   p=density 

   m=mass

   V=volume

   I=Investiture factor. >1 when tapping, <1 when storing 

   m=(p × V) x I

That equation would mathematically allow volume and density to remain the same while mass increases. This solves the whole issue that started the debate in the first place 

I'm sure none of this will change your opinion on anything. But as I said before, Feruchemy breaks the mass/density equation. Ultimately the math has to explain what's happening. If the equation can't explain what's happening then the equation is wrong. And iron Feruchemy proves the p=m/V equation wrong in the Cosmere. Not that there aren't a whole lot of other issues as ultimately Brandon makes decisions for narrative reasons. 

That is cool idea for how it could work as to not break too many things!

However, now you hold density to be fundamental quantity instead of derived one, which is not how it is IRL (to our knowledge). So if Cosmere is IRL + Investiture (which is I think how Brandon wants to treat it), that equation would not work sadly.
But sure, if you hold that density is fundamental quantity and mass derived one, then you can increase mass somehow without changing density. But it would have no explanation in terms of IRL physics (which is what I had issues with in the first place).

Additionally, it would imply that Invested objects are becoming heavier, which is not the case (i.e. Nightblood is the most invested object in Cosmere, followed by Shardblades and yet those are quite light, Susebron is also not heavier then other people).

8 hours ago, Heilven said:

Okay yep, this is definitely true. I think there might be some narrative wiggle room, like you say you would be bullet proof on the extreme ends. So perhaps the more subtle changes would allow for bullets to have a mostly indistinguishable effect. If a bullet goes right through you at normal density, even at twice or 3 times density it should probably still go through you. I think the main issue is with any blunt damage the bullets would do. Like they should still be able to break bones, but not crack them. I'm not sure what exactly the material properties are that make armor good, since generally this isn't something you have to worry about. I assume any part of your body that works to redistribute force would become significantly more effective at higher mass. Obviously this isn't true textually, so I'm essentially trying to reason through what exactly would need to be changed.

So, I did a little digging into ballistics, and actually becoming bulletproof is easier then I thought. (This was the primary source for math http://panoptesv.com/RPGs/Equipment/Weapons/Projectile_physics.php)

Humans are basically water, even average tissue density is like ~1.098 g/cm^3, so barely above water. The equations for penetration depth are linear in sectional density (so we can treat them as linear in volume density but multiplied by unit of length).
Since, eve 50. cal sniper rifle basically disintegrates after just 3 feet (~91 cm) in water ( Mythbusters episode), that means that increasing density ~93x times would make you bullet proof to 50. cal sniper rifle (well, it would penetrate ~1cm).
Interestingly enough, slower bullets actually get further in, but become non-lethal much sooner.

Some experimented with shooting into sand (density at most 2g/cm^3, https://www.theboxotruth.com/threads/the-box-o-truth-7-the-sands-o-truth.299/ ).
There no bullet penetrated more than 6 inches (~15 cm). So in this case tapping at ~27x increase makes you basically bulletproof (penetration at most 1cm). This assumes the person used the densest sand they could find, using average value (1.7g/cm^3) would bring the tapping needed down to ~23x.

I would assume that in some sense tissue would behave somewhere between water and sand (being more viscous than water, but less then sand in container), so anywhere between 23-93x tapping makes your soft tissue bullet proof up to 50. cal sniper rifles. Bones would become bullet proof far sooner. And this does not even consider the elastic properties of tissue, which would bring it down by some amount.

So at 2-3x tapping bullets would still pass through, but some just barely (I mean even IRL bullets can get stuck in wounds). At 10x tapping bullets would get about 3 cm in at most.
Someone who is on the bulkier side could effectively use this as emergency armor then.

Quote

I almost wonder if it's a spirit web or identity thing. Like the investiture giving you a greater mass knows what it's effect should be, and only really applies that. So when you get shot by a bullet perhaps your identity intentionally makes your body weaker where the bullet is touching since it knows you shouldn't gain an advantage against it. This is extremely hand wavy and experimental but I think it makes a decent amount of sense in universe. It could be a potential understanding of the whole windrunner g-force problem thing too. Your physical body doesn't feel a force, but your identity or perhaps your connection to the planet tells you you should have felt one, and thus you do. We have definitely seen that identity and connection are capable of affecting things in the physical world, so I think this could be a decent understanding. It's certainly very "the magic handles it" but I like having the specific mechanism by which it is handled. It's certainly quite catch-all, but it just feels better to me.

I think hand-wavy solutions are the best we can do, at the end of the day it is still fictional magic.
I think it will end up being explained as having something to do with Connections and spiritweb, as all magic will eventually come down to it (just like the Windrunner thing probably).

6 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I swear you guys make these threads just to watch people fight.

Nah, we find it fun to discuss and argue. Frustrating sometimes sure, but fun most of the time.

Quote

Obviously the Fullborn wins easily. You can't fight superspeed, it happens faster than you can think.

Yeah, we came to this conclusion quite early in the thread.
Since then, we were bringing in additional modifiers, starting with removing F-steel from consideration, because it distorts so much.

Quote

The only exception is if the Fullborn is Rashek, who is the most incompetent idiot to ever exist in the Cosmere.

And he gives nice example that overconfident Fullborn can be killed.

6 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

He could have just killed her at the onset, instead of going on a standard bad guy monologue.

Why kill someone fast, if you are untouchable?

Without Preservation and Mists choosing Vin, she could not have pushed on his metalminds and he was completely safe.
You cannot exactly plan for something that never happened.

6 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

He couldn't undo what he had done, but what he did do by the end was pure idiocy. I think Ruin was what was stopping him from undoing his changes, kind of like with Vin. Not 100% sure about that though.

Ruin was kind of driving him into madness (he was cracked a bit even before, which Ruin used to whisper to him and have him pierce himself).
So basically he had the Zane Venture experience for hundreds of years. And since he was the one who stopped Ruin from destroying the world last time, Ruin would have a lot of reason to be extra vicious.
Not a good recipe for good mental health and smart decision making.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Why can't Windrunner have a simple shield in hand? Or just grab something?
Fullborn now has entire city to play with, there will be something that can be used as shield.

And it could be even metallic I think, since it would become infused by Reverse Lashing, making it more difficult to affect with pushes/pulls.
 

And it would protect their back as well, All they have to do is hold it in hand extended away from themselves. It would not be fool proof, however Reverse Lashing are seemingly strong enough to pull bullets, so pulled/pushed metallic objects will be trivial to get away from Radiant.

I did suggest they grab something. 

I don't know if it would be that invested to prevent Fullborn from pushing on it.

Even if Radiant raises his arm fully to the side (which would make it harder for him to maneuver in narrow streets), there is still a path for metal objects coming from the other side of his body that would attract metal objects to the shield through Radiant's body.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

I agree they are limited, however Windrunner's sight is not the same as spren's sight, so Fullborn has to disappear from both of them, and in such a way as to not be clear how to follow.

Basically, Fullborn is not fighting just one person, but two the entire time.

Yes, but because spren is where Radiant is, they have basically the same field of view. And Scadrial's CR is full of mists and mist buildings, which would prevent spren from seeing throught them.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Of course, Windrunner could still try to avoid this guerilla style fight by flying above the roofs.

And Fullborn then can move through buildings, invisible to Radiant. He still detects him with bronze, and can even change clothes to ones which he finds in those homes, he would  fit into a crowd and be unrecognizable to Radiant.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Additionally, it would imply that Invested objects are becoming heavier, which is not the case (i.e. Nightblood is the most invested object in Cosmere, followed by Shardblades and yet those are quite light, Susebron is also not heavier then other people).

But Nightblood is heavier than it should be: Warbreaker prologue

Quote

“Let me see that,” the lead guard said, taking the sword. He grunted, obviously surprised by its weight.

[...]

Vasher picked up the weapon, accustomed to its unusual weight, and carried it in one hand. He recovered his duffel and slung it over his shoulder.

ch 5:

Quote

Of course, that didn’t take Nightblood into account. Vasher moved through the crowds, carry ing the overly heavy sword in one hand, sheathed point nearly dragging on the ground behind him.

ch 53:

Quote

Tangled in the net, a sword lay in the bottom of his boat. Silvery, with a black handle.
Lap, lap, lap.
Ah, very nice, the voice said, much clearer now. I hate the water. So wet and icky down there.
Transfixed, Old Chapps reached out, picking up the weapon. It felt heavy in his hand.

 

13 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I swear you guys make these threads just to watch people fight.

Some men just want to watch the world burn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

The only exception is if the Fullborn is Rashek, who is the most incompetent idiot to ever exist in the Cosmere.

Not sure I agree with that. After all, Straff Venture exists ;)

13 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

He could have just killed her at the onset, instead of going on a standard bad guy monologue.

True, the smartest thing would have been to kill her immediately, but he hadn't been seriously challenged in one thousand years. Plus, Vin did have to draw in the Mists to kill him, which isn't something he could have accounted for.

13 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Also dying to Vin was the least of his idiot maneuvers. Lets not forget that he had the power to reshape the world and instead of any one of a million thins he could have done to adapt humans to survive, he chose to make them really good at starving and then put up a bunch of volcanoes to block out the sun, (cause nothing ever goes wrong with volcanoes...) then proceed to have them enslaved, raped and tortured for 1000 years. I think I would have a hard time coming up with a worse plan TBH.

He didn't know how to use the Well of Ascension effectively at first, since he didn't exactly have experience wielding the power of creation before. He tried to move the planet closer to the sun at first to burn away the mists, which he knew were a serious problem at the time (just as we saw in HoA). He moved the planet closer to the sun as necessary though and needed to create the Ashmounts to keep people from dying. He continued to make changes to fix the world but didn't change the things already changed because Preservation's Intent restricted his ability to act in that way. 

As to how he ran the Final Empire, he got pretty much everything that he wanted. So it isn't a lack of intelligence on his part that so many people are mistreated and miserable in the Final Empire- it's due to a lack of morality and care for others on his part, which I think is a separate issue entirely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, therunner said:

Additionally, it would imply that Invested objects are becoming heavier, which is not the case (i.e. Nightblood is the most invested object in Cosmere, followed by Shardblades and yet those are quite light, Susebron is also not heavier then other people).

 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

But Nightblood is heavier than it should be: Warbreaker prologue

Hmm, perhaps it's only the Investiture that's in the Physical Realm that affects weight?

Considering that Breaths can be stolen with Hemalurgy, that to me implies that the Investiture of Breaths is mostly in the Spiritual Realm and just uses the Physical Realm as a medium to move through. This might be able to explain why an Ironmind doesn't get heavier because the Investiture is stored in with the Spiritual Aspect of the metal, but when tapped it's being converted into the Physical Realm fully

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Considering that Breaths can be stolen with Hemalurgy, that to me implies that the Investiture of Breaths is mostly in the Spiritual Realm and just uses the Physical Realm as a medium to move through.

We're actually not certain that regular Bio-Chromatic Breaths can be stolen with Hemalurgy as of yet. According to WoB, they are mostly physical in nature.

Quote


Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

Questioner

With spikes, would you be able to actually transfer Breaths, when they get to the other planets?

Brandon Sanderson

So spikes rip off pieces of the soul and so Breaths are not going to be part of the soul. You could maybe get a divine Breath but I haven't really decided on regular Breaths, they're kind of stuck there in the Physical Realm which is not a thing that spikes are dealing with. Divine Breath, potentially, because that's something that's actually melding onto your soul. But, you know, when you're using the Breaths they reach through to the Spiritual Realm so, maybe if you got it while the Breaths were kinetic, right, while you're using them, then you might be able to rip them off. I'm not a hundred percent certain on that one.

Bystander

There's still things to decide upon.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there's still things, like I have to kind of see. My instinct says no right now. But, you know, how they interact is not something that I have-- Yeah.

Personally, I think that Breaths you are born with may be spiritual more than physical, but when they transfer over to someone else they become more physical. This would explain why a small portion of extra Investiture gets pulled off with them and why the Breaths take after the original owner's personality.

Quote

JordanCon 2016 - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Questioner

In the last panel we talked a lot about people from different planets using magic systems on other planets, one of the things I've been thinking about, we've been thinking about, talking about Breath, and people being born with Breath, is that something specific to Nalthis or do, technically, other people on other planets have a Breath as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question and that is a Nalthian thing. Now, everyone in the cosmere to an extent has Investiture, the Nalthian Breath is part what everyone has and then a little extra, plus the ability to share it around. So a person who gives up their Breath on Nalthis is actually going below what a normal person has. But a normal person on Nalthis has more than somebody-- So if you were for instance to pick a world like Sixth of the Dusk, where there's not a Shard in residence, and you compared them to a Nalthian, Nalthian has an Investiture advantage over them. When they've given up their Breath, they have an Investiture disadvantage.

Bystander

So we're not Drabs?

Brandon Sanderson

So we're not Drabs. That's exactly it. We're not Drabs.

 

30 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

This might be able to explain why an Ironmind doesn't get heavier because the Investiture is stored in with the Spiritual Aspect of the metal, but when tapped it's being converted into the Physical Realm fully

I have wondered about whether or not Metalminds store Investiture in the physical realm or not. We know that the capacity for holding Investiture is not linear; there are different "sizes" that could be reached and that a slight increase to the amount of metal in a Metalmind may not increase its total Investiture-holding capacity. 

This could be because the spiritual aspect of the Metalmind matters more than the physical aspect. Perhaps this means that the Feruchemical Investiture resides mostly in the spiritual realm?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

We're actually not certain that regular Bio-Chromatic Breaths can be stolen with Hemalurgy as of yet. According to WoB, they are mostly physical in nature.

I'd forgotten about his comment on Breaths mostly being in the Physical but he has said Nicrosil can steal them so he may have done a  retcon 

Quote

Questioner

With spikes, would you be able to actually transfer Breaths, when they get to the other planets?

Brandon Sanderson

So spikes rip off pieces of the soul and so Breaths are not going to be part of the soul. You could maybe get a divine Breath but I haven't really decided on regular Breaths, they're kind of stuck there in the Physical Realm which is not a thing that spikes are dealing with. Divine Breath, potentially, because that's something that's actually melding onto your soul. But, you know, when you're using the Breaths they reach through to the Spiritual Realm so, maybe if you got it while the Breaths were kinetic, right, while you're using them, then you might be able to rip them off. I'm not a hundred percent certain on that one.

Bystander

There's still things to decide upon.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there's still things, like I have to kind of see. My instinct says no right now. But, you know, how they interact is not something that I have-- Yeah.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)
Quote

Pagerunner

The Hemalurgy table, you wrote down "atium steals any power, lerasium is all abilities, nicrosil is Investiture"; what's the difference between those three?

Hemalurgic atium, lerasium, and nicrosil. What's powers, abilities, and Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

People are Invested in ways that do not give them active powers. So for instance, everyone on Nalthis is Invested. Everyone in the cosmere is, really. You want to steal their Investiture, but they don't have a power. You're still ripping off a piece of their soul. So there is a distinction between the actual Investiture that's in a human being and a specific power that they have.

So that distinction is pretty easy. You can also, with Hemalurgy, steal specific things. You can steal just general Investiture. You can steal, if you want--this is where the kandra Blessings come from. You can instead steal specific things that are not like stealing Allomancy. Stealing, for instance, someone's mental acuity.

Pagerunner

So abilities is like the half that's all the strength, speed, all that kind of stuff? Those are abilities, versus the Metallic Arts are all powers?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Pagerunner

Then Investiture, is that offworld magics?

Brandon Sanderson

No, no, it's the raw power.

Pagerunner

Nicrosil is their soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. A piece of their soul, essentially.

Pagerunner

So how would you go about stealing an offworld power?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to depend. A Breath, you would steal with nicrosil. It's general Investiture, is what you would probably going call that. You could forcibly remove someone's Breath from them. The ability to be a Sand Master you would steal with the power ability.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, StanLemon said:

I'd forgotten about his comment on Breaths mostly being in the Physical but he has said Nicrosil can steal them so he may have done a  retcon 

Perhaps you can take someone's Breath that they were born with, but not that which they collected? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

But Nightblood is heavier than it should be: Warbreaker prologue

That's actually due to how it was made rather than a consequence of investiture

Spoiler

Herowannabe

I noticed that shardblades are unnaturally light but Nightblood is unnaturally heavy.

Brandon Sanderson

That is correct.

Herowannabe

Care to expound on that?

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood is built around the same principles as shardblades, if shardblades were... broken?  I mean he is-- You'll notice dark smoke that goes down rather than light smoke that goes up, and things like this. So, yeah, they are built on the same principles but in some ways opposites.

Firefight release party (Jan. 5, 2015)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Frustration said:

That's actually due to how it was made rather than a consequence of investiture

I don't think this WoB suggests that is solely due to how it was made. It's rather that because of how it was made, some properties of Nightblood are opposite to that of Shardblades, which causes him to be heavier. One of those properties is that Shardblade doesn't require Stormlight to function, Nightblood on the other hand does need steady flow of investiture or it would consume your soul. And that investiture isn't going anywhere, it stays in the sword. So I don't see how this WoB disproves my words. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

I don't think this WoB suggests that is solely due to how it was made. It's rather that because of how it was made, some properties of Nightblood are opposite to that of Shardblades, which causes him to be heavier. One of those properties is that Shardblade doesn't require Stormlight to function, Nightblood on the other hand does need steady flow of investiture or it would consume your soul. And that investiture isn't going anywhere, it stays in the sword. So I don't see how this WoB disproves my words. 

Investiture doesn't make invested objects heavier.

It CAN, but that's not an innate effect it has.

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And that investiture isn't going anywhere, it stays in the sword.

It actually does leak out

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him.

Warbreaker Annotations (April 25, 2011)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Investiture doesn't make invested objects heavier.

It CAN, but that's not an innate effect it has.

Which is what we're talking about. Where did you get that from?

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It actually does leak out

I meant, it doesn't go back into SR, isn't used up, it stays in a sword, which isn't a perfect vessel, so it leaks up, as it's so full of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

As to how he ran the Final Empire, he got pretty much everything that he wanted. So it isn't a lack of intelligence on his part that so many people are mistreated and miserable in the Final Empire- it's due to a lack of morality and care for others on his part, which I think is a separate issue entirely.

Yeah, TLR being evil doesn't necessarily mean he was incompetent. The skaa being super oppressed was something he specifically designed into his empire (the HoA epigraphs talk about how he combined elements of the cultures he conquered to create his imperial system, and took the oppression of the skaa from the Canzi slavery system). That's malice, not incompetence.

OTOH the real unforced error with the skaa was the genetic split. It was dumb to make genetic changes that would just disappear over time anyway. That was both evil and foolish.

But he was also very young (likely 18-25 range) at the time and from a pretty low education background.

--

Re: density, density is literally defined as mass divided by volume. So saying it changes mass but not density is technically incoherent. What Brandon means, though, is that super high mass doesn't make Wax bulletproof.

The problem is that the impact-depth issue for bullet penetration is a result of conservation of momentum. So if his mass changes, this will change.

Particle physics won't get around this, I don't think (though I'm not a physicist) - bullets are macroscopic, so I don't see why it matters how much of Wax's mass comes from Higgs field vs binding energy.

What *would* perhaps work - but be very strange- is if it's a Cognitive-object-definition thing: Wax's mass, when Wax is considered as a single entity, changes but for things affecting only individual little bits of him (like a bullet pushing flesh out of the way) there's no change.

--

Re the punch issue: I think what is meant is that while iron Feruchemy keeps you from *crushing* yourself (structural strength), you don't gain the strength to *move* as well at high mass (no muscular strength). So if you punch someone at x5 weight, your fist is moving 1/5 as fast, so it has the same momentum (and actually less kinetic energy) as a normal punch. Dropping your fist or tackling someone, though (as Sazed did in HoA) does work, because that isn't all added by your own strength- gravity is helping.

Edited by cometaryorbit
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 17/03/2023 at 3:28 PM, alder24 said:

I don't know if it would be that invested to prevent Fullborn from pushing on it.

It would be more difficult to push on certainly, though if it would be enough, we don't know.

Quote

Even if Radiant raises his arm fully to the side (which would make it harder for him to maneuver in narrow streets), there is still a path for metal objects coming from the other side of his body that would attract metal objects to the shield through Radiant's body.

In narrow streets Radiant won't have to use Reverse Lashing in that manner, even brick walls block steelsight (and so pushes) quite well as Wax mentions I think.
So there Radiant does not have to worry about that (as much).

And in open space it leaves a very specific direction that they would be vulnerable in, and if they are facing Fullborn head on, Fullborn would be unable to take advantage of that due to linear nature of pushes and pulls.

Quote

Yes, but because spren is where Radiant is, they have basically the same field of view. And Scadrial's CR is full of mists and mist buildings, which would prevent spren from seeing throught them.

They can have completely different field of view, they can easily look in the opposite direction.

We don't know to which extent spren's sight relies on CR, or to which extent the 'misty' nature would obscure things. Rosharan CR is full off spheres, and it is relatively easy to spot people in it.

Quote

And Fullborn then can move through buildings, invisible to Radiant. He still detects him with bronze, and can even change clothes to ones which he finds in those homes, he would  fit into a crowd and be unrecognizable to Radiant.

Bronze can detect kinetic Investiture and only of certain streght (in this case lashings), if Windrunner would cancel Lashings on themselves they would become invisible to Fullborn.

And why is there a crowd suddenly? :D

Quote

But Nightblood is heavier than it should be: Warbreaker prologue

As @Frustration quoted, that is not due to Nightblood being Invested, but to do with the kind of construct he is.

BoM were not described as surprising heavy, Susebron was not heavier (despite being possibly the single most Invested person we have seen with ~50 000 breaths), etc.
Overwhelmingly, Investiture does not make objects heavier, Nightblood is outlier not the rule (and there is the opposite outlier in Shardblades, Honorblades).

On 17/03/2023 at 5:53 PM, alder24 said:

I don't know if I'm imagining things or I misremember, but I think that there was a WoB, or mention in a book, talking about how much a sphere weighs with and without a Stormlight in it. I also don't remember the results as well. 

Unable to find anything on it, one way or the other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, therunner said:

In narrow streets Radiant won't have to use Reverse Lashing in that manner, even brick walls block steelsight (and so pushes) quite well as Wax mentions I think.
So there Radiant does not have to worry about that (as much).

Bricks partially reduces steelsight, Wax is still able to see wires inside walls, and weak lines leading to objects behind wall. Some buildings in Elendel are still made out of wood, at least partially. 

36 minutes ago, therunner said:

They can have completely different field of view, they can easily look in the opposite direction.

They have the same 360 degree if they are in the same place. Yes, they can watch each other back, but they still see the same circle. That's what I meant.

37 minutes ago, therunner said:

Bronze can detect kinetic Investiture and only of certain streght (in this case lashings), if Windrunner would cancel Lashings on themselves they would become invisible to Fullborn.

If Windrunner cancels Lashing, he falls down on the ground. Invisible, yes, but he's not flying anymore.

38 minutes ago, therunner said:

And why is there a crowd suddenly? :D

There are like 5 mil people living in Elendel. They walk the street, go to work/home/shop/bar, doing what they do everyday. They won't disappear just because there is 2 dudes flying over the city :P 

44 minutes ago, therunner said:

As @Frustration quoted, that is not due to Nightblood being Invested, but to do with the kind of construct he is.

BoM were not described as surprising heavy, Susebron was not heavier (despite being possibly the single most Invested person we have seen with ~50 000 breaths), etc.
Overwhelmingly, Investiture does not make objects heavier, Nightblood is outlier not the rule (and there is the opposite outlier in Shardblades, Honorblades).

Shardblades and Honorblades are made purely out of solid Investiture, and yet they still have a mass. They're light, yes, but still weigh something. Wouldn't it mean that Investiture on its own still has a mass? Not a lot, because solid ones are so light, but still have some amount of mass (which is considered a lot by a spearmen). So in liquid and gaseous form investiture would weigh even less, as it's less dense. God metals are a proof that investiture has a mass.

You used Nightblood as an example of being light despite being invested, I disputed it. I am still not buying Frustration's WoB, it just says that Nightblood is built on the same principles as Shardblades, but in a different way, which can mean many things.

Swords are surprisingly light, they weigh around 1-2 kg. Even one of the heaviest swords, Zweihänder (up to 210 cm), weighs just 2-4 kg. Nightblood size sword should weigh just around 2 kg, and if all investiture that he consumed and holds inside of him would weigh just 1 kg, it would make that sword significantly heavier than it should be. That's enough, and realistic to assume that whatever he holds weighs just a few kg. The same could be with Susebron, 50k Breaths which weigh just 1 kg more - nothing compared to what he already weighs (~90 kg). I’m not claiming that Nightblood weighs 20 kg, but his mass is noticeably not accurate to his size, which for sword could mean less than a kilogram more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Bricks partially reduces steelsight, Wax is still able to see wires inside walls, and weak lines leading to objects behind wall. Some buildings in Elendel are still made out of wood, at least partially.

Which means two things

  1. Within narrow corridors/buildings Fullborn is unable to use Steel/Iron to full effect, since they can basically use only what is within the corridors.
  2. Because the lines are weak, Fullborn cannot use all the metal to navigate. Objects attached to weaker lines cannot be pushed/pulled as strongly. (Did we ever saw Wax navigate around a city pushing on things behind walls, or did he only use large objects in the open?)
Quote

They have the same 360 degree if they are in the same place. Yes, they can watch each other back, but they still see the same circle. That's what I meant.

Ah, alright then.
Still, effectively they can perceive most of their surrounding at once, which is considerable advantage.

Quote

If Windrunner cancels Lashing, he falls down on the ground. Invisible, yes, but he's not flying anymore.

If they are in interior of building that does not matter as much.

Quote

There are like 5 mil people living in Elendel. They walk the street, go to work/home/shop/bar, doing what they do everyday. They won't disappear just because there is 2 dudes flying over the city :P 

Yeah, but the setup you started with was city environment, not Elendel specifically, nor mentioned that we consider people are nearby. :D
Windrunner can then just, you know start walking around (after grabbing some clothes). If they or spren saw the Fullborn, they can watch out for them.

Quote

Shardblades and Honorblades are made purely out of solid Investiture, and yet they still have a mass. They're light, yes, but still weigh something. Wouldn't it mean that Investiture on its own still has a mass? Not a lot, because solid ones are so light, but still have some amount of mass (which is considered a lot by a spearmen). So in liquid and gaseous form investiture would weigh even less, as it's less dense. God metals are a proof that investiture has a mass.

God metals are also physical material, not just Investiture.
Investiture can be turned into mass, but how much Investiture converts into how much mass we don't know.

And the original line of this discussion was pointing out that the only way you can keep density fixed while mass is changing is to assume that density is fundamental thing, and Investiture in being/object then changes how much mass does that density grant.

Which is completely different from arguing that Investiture has some mass, and can contribute. Clearly, Investiture in e.g. F-Iron ferrings cannot explain their increase in mass, since otherwise any other Ferring tapping equal amount of attribute should experience increase in mass, which they don't.

Quote

You used Nightblood as an example of being light despite being invested, I disputed it. I am still not buying Frustration's WoB, it just says that Nightblood is built on the same principles as Shardblades, but in a different way, which can mean many things.

My argument was that Nightblood would have to incredibly heavy, which he is not.

Also, the WoB is quite clear that the mechanism/reason for Nightblood being heavier is the same as the one that makes Shardblades lighter then they should. So it is not question of Investiture content, but something more Involved.

Quote

Swords are surprisingly light, they weigh around 1-2 kg. Even one of the heaviest swords, Zweihänder (up to 210 cm), weighs just 2-4 kg. Nightblood size sword should weigh just around 2 kg, and if all investiture that he consumed and holds inside of him would weigh just 1 kg, it would make that sword significantly heavier than it should be. That's enough, and realistic to assume that whatever he holds weighs just a few kg. The same could be with Susebron, 50k Breaths which weigh just 1 kg more - nothing compared to what he already weighs (~90 kg). I’m not claiming that Nightblood weighs 20 kg, but his mass is noticeably not accurate to his size, which for sword could mean less than a kilogram more.

Explain Bands of Mourning then. Sure they are not Nightblood, but they should still have noticeable difference in mass. Even if they are 1/20 as Invested it should be noticable, especially after they used up so much of attributes.
Also, explain Shardblades or Honorblades.

And if all the Investiture in Nightblood weighted only 1 kg, then the formula like  m=(p × V) x I  makes no sense when trying to explain Iron Feruchemy (which was the point I was trying to disprove), since the Investiture in Ferring is far less then that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Which means two things

  1. Within narrow corridors/buildings Fullborn is unable to use Steel/Iron to full effect, since they can basically use only what is within the corridors.
  2. Because the lines are weak, Fullborn cannot use all the metal to navigate. Objects attached to weaker lines cannot be pushed/pulled as strongly. (Did we ever saw Wax navigate around a city pushing on things behind walls, or did he only use large objects in the open?)

Windows, doors, gutters, trash cans, street lamps, nails, coins he throws, there are still a lot of objects Fullborn can use to steelpush and ironpull. 

Pushing on things behind the wall isn't smart, as you do not always know what it is, and nails or other smaller objects will be pushed out and won't provide anchor. I've never considered them as travel anchors.

And small streets, corridors and paths between buildings are often curvy, have lots of intersections and sharp turns. Not straight lines.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Yeah, but the setup you started with was city environment, not Elendel specifically, nor mentioned that we consider people are nearby. :D

No, I did specify Elendel :P 

On 16.03.2023 at 4:06 PM, alder24 said:

What if they are fighting in Elendel?

And there are people living there, so sometimes both sides can try to hide among them.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Windrunner can then just, you know start walking around (after grabbing some clothes). If they or spren saw the Fullborn, they can watch out for them.

Yeah, his from Roshar, 7ft tall, with Rosharian foot bigger than Earth's foot. His head would be as good as a giant arrow floating above him :P 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

God metals are also physical material, not just Investiture.
Investiture can be turned into mass, but how much Investiture converts into how much mass we don't know.

They are pure, concentrated investiture in the form of physical metal. They don't contain any other elements except for god metal axi. It's not that investiture is converted into matter (via E=mc2) to create a god metal, it's that investiture shares characteristics of both matter (different physical states) and energy (fueling magic) while being separate from both of them. God metals are pure investiure, not matter, but still are physical.

And because in our Universe both matter and energy can bend spacetime, Investiture can as well, which can be described as mass.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

And the original line of this discussion was pointing out that the only way you can keep density fixed while mass is changing is to assume that density is fundamental thing, and Investiture in being/object then changes how much mass does that density grant.

Which is completely different from arguing that Investiture has some mass, and can contribute. Clearly, Investiture in e.g. F-Iron ferrings cannot explain their increase in mass, since otherwise any other Ferring tapping equal amount of attribute should experience increase in mass, which they don't.

Yeah, I'm good at derailing stuff :P 

Investiture in F-iron has a clear command to change mass of the Ferring, while simple investiture has not, F-iron likely changes something on spiritual level, strictly related to mass. So while investiture in ironmind has some mass, it's the changes in spirit web that causes ferring's mass to change, not being more invested. I'm not gonna argue what causes the change in mass, and why density stays the same. I mostly agree with you on this (tbf I don't remember now what's going on, so...)

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Explain Bands of Mourning then. Sure they are not Nightblood, but they should still have noticeable difference in mass. Even if they are 1/20 as Invested it should be noticable, especially after they used up so much of attributes.
Also, explain Shardblades or Honorblades.

I just explained. Investiture has some mass, in the form of solid god metal it is the densest, under normal conditions, and yet it is still very light. Those are Shardblades, that's why they weigh. Shardblade weighing 1-2 kg would be considerably lower than its oversized sword size suggests, but comparable to a spear, so that spearmen can be not impressed by its mass.

Scadrial is a low investiture world. The amount of investiture Mistborn/Feruchemist uses is lower than Stromlight (and Mists) which is gaseous. Bands are made of regular metals, invested with Scadrial intensity-level of investiture - which is low. Whole spear weighs around 1-2 kg, the spearhead less than 1 kg (let's say an oversized spearhead would weigh 1 kg). Because of how low invested Bands are compared to Shardblades (very, very, very low), mass of investiture in them would be very little, and would be just slightly noticeable, if even at all. And they are still invested after being used, so nobody has a chance to notice their weight and compare them while invested and not invested.

What I'm saying here is that Shardblades proves Investiture has mass, but a 6ft wide and funky sword weighs less than a regular sword, so a god metal of that size is very light, lighter than it should be. Liquid investiture would be lighter, and gas would be the lightest (like Stormlight, Breaths or Mists). Water vapor is more than 1000x less dense than liquid water, so I expect a great difference in mass of solid and gaseous investiture contained in the same space, under normal pressure.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

And if all the Investiture in Nightblood weighted only 1 kg, then the formula like  m=(p × V) x I  makes no sense when trying to explain Iron Feruchemy (which was the point I was trying to disprove), since the Investiture in Ferring is far less then that.

I'm not taking part in F-iron disscusion here. I'm just going wild. Not everything that I say is to prove a point, sometimes I just want to prove you're wrong without making any point :P 
So I'm kind of providing you with an argument for your disprove of this formula. What can I say except you're welcome! B)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...