Fullborn V.S. 5th Ideal Windrunners

[Frustration Stormfather]

3 hours ago, Heilven said:

I didn't say the underlying mechanics of the cosmere. I said the full mechanics of the cosmere. He did not fully know how acceleration would work in 2018, he still doesn't quite know how iron feruchemy works. It's extremely complicated and the full physics involved requires a theory of quantum gravity, which is something we don't have in the real world. His desire to serve reader expectation does not go above his desire to maintain the rules he has set up. Besides the fact that the underlying mechanics of the cosmere were clearly not fully established, since he has had to retcon atium since then.

The Atium retcon actually dates back to 2009, so no they are fully established and have been for years.

Spoiler

/u/AAKS_

My understanding is that Brandon thinks it is a plothole that Lerasium can be burned by Scadrian (regardless of if they are mistings/mistborn) but Atium can't.

His solution is to retcon the Pits to naturally produce an Atium/Electrum alloy, presumably by the design of Preservation. Therefore we don't know what pure Atium looks like or does when used in any magic.

Peter Ahlstrom

We do know what it does. It’s on the Allomancy poster, and the effect appeared one time at the end of Hero of Ages.

LewsTherinTelescope

Interesting. Do you know if he had already conceived the retcon by the time the poster was written, or if that line about pure atium just turned out to fit really well retroactively?

Peter Ahlstrom

The retcon is way older than a lot of people assume.

LewsTherinTelescope

Does this mean he had it in mind by the time Hero of Ages released (since the first public version of the poster dates to 2008), or just that it's old but not sure exactly how old?

Peter Ahlstrom

Remember that what's in the books is filtered through the understanding of the characters. So even if Brandon planned it from the beginning, if the characters didn't know about it, it's not going to come out in the book.

And see this thread reply from 2009.

Footnote: The link is to a post on the Timewaster's Guide forums, where Peter responds to someone asking about whether atium is an alloy by saying he now knows enough to confirm or deny the theory, but is not allowed to.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/486/#e15955

 

3 hours ago, Heilven said:

My point is that it is not only very possible, but explicitly true that he didn't exactly know how a feruchemist punching someone would work, since he says you would have to ask Peter for the numbers in the exact WoB. That was the point I was making by bringing that point up by the way.

If Peter has exact numbers that means Brandon has already worked it out, otherwise Peter wouldn't have them.

3 hours ago, Heilven said:

The higgs field is a perfectly valid scientific explanation to iron feruchemy. The main problem with Iron feruchemy is conservation of energy (Which @alder24 and I have talked about, and he has talked about even more than me) since having a decent answer likely requires something akin to a quantum theory of gravity, as well as the fact that our equations for kinetic and potential energy don't correctly apply to the cosmere. I got this answer from your own quote talking about the issues with F-Iron.

There is no source there, and footnotes are fan made, so I would be careful using the as evidence. The only evidence I was able to find supporting this is this WoB

Spoiler

Seonid

I noticed that you-- Was that a retcon on the way iron Feruchemy works?

Brandon Sanderson

What do you mean?

Seonid

There's a researcher who talks to Wax, asking him about whether he's changing his mass of whether he's changing whether the planet perceives him-- affecting his gravity.

Brandon Sanderson

Right. It's more a re-- Defining something I didn't pin down strongly enough. I wouldn't call it a retcon because it's something that nobody really did until Wax, really, in the series. The only one really capable of doing that in the original trilogy would have been the Lord Ruler, maybe some of the Inquisitors, but we don't have viewpoints from them. So I wouldn't call it a retcon I would just say it’s something that didn't come up in the first series that now I have to make sure is clear.

Seonid

So is it Higgs field stuff going on?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Mmhmm.

Seonid

My idea was right.

Brandon Sanderson

Mmhmm.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/6/#e327

Quote

 

 

Which was supplied by the questioners and if you listen to the audio there is a long pause where Brandon stops to think about it. Hardly compelling evidence.

3 hours ago, Heilven said:

This is incoherent. I've asked all of my friends if they understand what you mean by this and I don't want to misconstrue your point, so please rephrase this argument. To me it just looks like a complete non-sequitur.

Brandon said Iron feruchemy stores mass but when feruchemists punch there isn't a mass transfer. Which he mentions as being different from what mass would do on its own, which he acknowledges in the next line by saying there are tweaks.

@alder24

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We've taken away Fullborn's steel, and while we all have different opinions, we can mostly agree that it's 50-50  with an advantage for a Windrunner. What if we take away Radiant's Plate, as that's his biggest advantage? Windspren have a day off to chill out in Purelake. To equalize the field, Fullborn also loses F-pewter (no one-punch man), but still has A-pewter, and he can't duralumin smooths/riots Radiant (too op without a Plate), but can smooths/riots regularly for some reason. And to make it even more interesting, he forgot his goldminds, and has no Miles levels of health but just Wayne's levels, with which he can still heal a few Shardblade cuts, but has to be more cautious. No iron tapping when punching, to avoid jumping back to this hole. Who do you guys think would win now?

That's just a slightly better Mistborn against a slightly better Windrunner, I'd say it's the same as base Mistborn and Windrunner would be.

Edited March 16 by Frustration

[therunner Seer]

16 hours ago, StanLemon said:

@therunner I apologize, I thought you were thinking like Frustration was in this comment where Frustration thinks the time halves for every compression factor. I got myself a little turned around on what you were saying.

Ah, no problem. There can be a lot going on, I get lost too.

Quote

I'm still incredibly doubtful though that Brandon's rate of decay in that WoB is reflected in the books. Especially for when Feruchemists are drawing out a ton of an attribute. The best test would probably be when he starts pushing a passenger car of a train for a minute or two. Not counting any variances when Wax might store extra, because he also regularly taps his Ironminds as well. Wax stores 25% of his weight, even that he completely drained his Ironminds at the end of Alloy of Law that gives him only a year and a half to two years (can't remember exactly off the top of my head, have to check) of storing a quarter of his weight. Giving Wax a full 16 hours a day, assuming 8 hrs of sleep average and him storing from the moment he wakes up to going to bed. 

Yeah, I don't think it is exact, however it gives rough estimate I think. I.e. Feruchemist can easily go 3-4x , and with years of storage peak to 20x attribute for minutes (or more, but only for seconds).
Fullborn can go higher, however there is still point where the loss is too punishig, so they cannot go arbitrarily high. E.g. they can easily go 10-15x fold all day long, and can peak to ~80-90x fold for single minutes at a time.
Of course we can always consider 'ideal' Fullborn, who learned how to compound when they were two, were supplied all the metal they needed, and spent their entire life compounding and training up to the vs. battle, in which case they can sustain longer peaks.

For Feruchemist I think that estimate above roughly matches what we see, and for Fullborn it is just a guess. Brandon seems to be avoiding complete game breakers, so I expect Fullborn have 'reasonable' ceiling, though they are still among the strongest beings in Cosmere.

13 hours ago, Heilven said:

The higgs field is a perfectly valid scientific explanation to iron feruchemy. The main problem with Iron feruchemy is conservation of energy (Which @alder24 and I have talked about, and he has talked about even more than me) since having a decent answer likely requires something akin to a quantum theory of gravity, as well as the fact that our equations for kinetic and potential energy don't correctly apply to the cosmere. I got this answer from your own quote talking about the issues with F-Iron.

This is incoherent. I've asked all of my friends if they understand what you mean by this and I don't want to misconstrue your point, so please rephrase this argument. To me it just looks like a complete non-sequitur.

No it is not. Higgs field would manipulate mass, however that would lead to increase in density and a lot of knock on quantum effects.

F-Iron breaks:

• Energy conservation as you point out
• Density remaining unchanged for some reason (i.e. Wax does not become immune to bullets)
• Punches don't hit as hard as they should (on this we can agree to disagree)

None of the points above can be explained via Higgs field.

11 hours ago, alder24 said:

Can we just back down a little bit? We've been talking in circles for so long now that we made a hole, and it's getting unnecessarily hot here.

Yep, agreed.

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The truth is, this WoB is ambiguous and can be interpreted in many different ways. Arguing over semantics is always pointless. The WoB answers the question if F-iron stores mass or weight, and only mentions punching using the weird phrase "mass transfer into someone else '', which for me makes 0 sense as there is no mass transfer during a punch. What’s transferred is energy, not mass. Mass of the guy punching, and the other one who’s being punched, stays the same before and after the punch, so no mass is transferred during a punch. That sentence in the WoB just makes no sense, and proves nothing for me.

I was reading it that he misspoke and meant energy or momentum transference, because as you point out mass transference does not mean anything.
However, I think the intent there shows that having more mass does not affect punches as you expect it would, because it is not 'real' mass for all intents and purposes.

Frankly, F-Iron makes more sense if you look at it as manipulating weight not mass, i.e. what changes is how attracted F-Iron feruchemist is to planet (and I know, there is a WoB that says that is not what is happening). Someone on moon can move around as if they were lighter, kind-of like F-Iron Ferring storing weight.

That leads to no issues with lack of increased density (since mass does not change), no issue with punching vs falling on someone (since mass does not change only gravitational weight).
It does lead to issues with momentum when moving around, and the fact that they don't fall faster/slower.

So in my opinion, F-Iron simply behaves inconsistently (sometimes like it is weight being changed, sometimes like the actual mass is being changed), because it is magic.

Quote

We've taken away Fullborn's steel, and while we all have different opinions, we can mostly agree that it's 50-50  with an advantage for a Windrunner. What if we take away Radiant's Plate, as that's his biggest advantage? Windspren have a day off to chill out in Purelake. To equalize the field, Fullborn also loses F-pewter (no one-punch man), but still has A-pewter, and he can't duralumin smooths/riots Radiant (too op without a Plate), but can smooths/riots regularly for some reason. And to make it even more interesting, he forgot his goldminds, and has no Miles levels of health but just Wayne's levels, with which he can still heal a few Shardblade cuts, but has to be more cautious. No iron tapping when punching, to avoid jumping back to this hole. Who do you guys think would win now?

So to clarify, your proposed set up now is

• 5th Ideal Windrunner minus Plate
• Fullborn minus F-steel, F-Pewter, cannot duralumin riot/sooth, and has only pure F-gold sized stores

I think in this case Windrunner can win relatively easily, since they heal better and more, have mobility advantage, and still have one hit kill weapon in Shardblade.
Basically the only advantage Fullborn retains is F-Chromium, F-zinc and F-Iron (for stronger pushes), so it is basically quick thinking lucky Mistborn vs Windrunner, and we know how that goes when Windrunner is just on 3rd Oath.
The only way Fullborn could reliably win is using compounded Chromium, however we don't know how that exactly works so we cannot speculate how that would look like.

I think it makes more sense if Fullborn still retains F-pewter, because in that case both sides have one hit kill possibility (Shardblade to head/spine vs full F-pewter punch to head).

Edited March 16 by therunner

[StanLemon Worldbringer]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Frankly, F-Iron makes more sense if you look at it as manipulating weight not mass, i.e. what changes is how attracted F-Iron feruchemist is to planet (and I know, there is a WoB that says that is not what is happening). Someone on moon can move around as if they were lighter, kind-of like F-Iron Ferring storing weight.

That leads to no issues with lack of increased density (since mass does not change), no issue with punching vs falling on someone (since mass does not change only gravitational weight).
It does lead to issues with momentum when moving around, and the fact that they don't fall faster/slower.

The problem with this is that Brandon has consistently said it's mass and not a gravity manipulation. 

He's probably going this route for Era 4 reasons most likely. 

As far as the density issue. The way to get around this is "simple" when one knows where most mass comes from. The Higgs field is where individual particles get their mass, but most mass is a derived property of the strong interaction. The majority of mass in the universe exists from the energy of holding quarks together in protons and neutrons. Changing this energy would change the mass. Now that leaves a whole lot of particle physics issues that need to be handwaved but it does fix the density issue 

[therunner Seer]

46 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

The problem with this is that Brandon has consistently said it's mass and not a gravity manipulation. 

He's probably going this route for Era 4 reasons most likely.

Yeah, I know, I acknowledge that in the post.

47 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

As far as the density issue. The way to get around this is "simple" when one knows where most mass comes from. The Higgs field is where individual particles get their mass, but most mass is a derived property of the strong interaction. The majority of mass in the universe exists from the energy of holding quarks together in protons and neutrons. Changing this energy would change the mass. Now that leaves a whole lot of particle physics issues that need to be handwaved but it does fix the density issue 

No it does not fix the density issue.
Density is literally defined as Mass/Volume, so if you increase mass in any way, you increase density of the material. That is all there is to it, particle physics won't get you around that in any way, shape or form.

Wax by all rights should be nearly bullet proof when tapping for ~10x (at that point he would have greater density then iron and flexibility of flesh to consume impact force)  (which he could do for minutes at a time) thanks to increase in density that should be associated with mass increase and how penetration works, but he is not.

[StanLemon Worldbringer]

12 minutes ago, therunner said:

Yeah, I know, I acknowledge that in the post.

No it does not fix the density issue.
Density is literally defined as Mass/Volume, so if you increase mass in any way, you increase density of the material. That is all there is to it, particle physics won't get you around that in any way, shape or form.

Wax by all rights should be nearly bullet proof when tapping for ~10x (at that point he would have greater density then iron and flexibility of flesh to consume impact force)  (which he could do for minutes at a time) thanks to increase in density that should be associated with mass increase and how penetration works, but he is not.

But that definition of density assumes that mass of particles stays consistent. Thus the only way for mass to increase under normal circumstances is for there to be more particles per unit of volume. Changing the mass of the particles themselves completely throws that out the window

[therunner Seer]

7 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

But that definition of density assumes that mass of particles stays consistent. Thus the only way for mass to increase under normal circumstances is for there to be more particles per unit of volume. Changing the mass of the particles themselves completely throws that out the window

No
That is not at all how that works, density in any context is defined simply as mass contained in a given volume, divided by that volume. That is it.
Even if you generalize to GR, all you do there is define energy density in exact same way.
It makes zero assumptions about number of particles, or kinds of particles or anything of the sort.

In the most general way, you would simply calculate the Stress-energy-momentum tensor, and select the zero-zero component to get energy density (and by extension mass density). Which still makes not assumptions on the mass of particles staying constant, that is simply completely wrong
statement.

There is simply no way to increase mass/energy content in given region (IRL), without getting increase in density, literally by definition.

Edited March 16 by therunner

[StanLemon Worldbringer]

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

No
That is not at all how that works, density in any context is defined simply as mass contained in a given volume, divided by that volume. That is it.
Even if you generalize to GR, all you do there is define energy density in exact same way.
It makes zero assumptions about number of particles, or kinds of particles or anything of the sort.

In the most general way, you would simply calculate the Stress-energy-momentum tensor, and select the zero-zero component to get energy density (and by extension mass density). Which still makes not assumptions on the mass of particles staying constant, that is simply completely wrong
statement.

There is simply no way to increase mass/energy content in given region (IRL), without getting increase in density, literally by definition.

Except it does assume that. Density is technically defined as the amount of stuff in a given volume. In physics, because particles do have a constant mass, that leads directly to the mass/volume equation. The only way to get more mass/volume in real life is to increase the amount of particles (stuff). Iron Feruchemy gets rid of that constant, making the p=m/v equation no longer valid. That equation only works if the mass of particles remains the same.

Quote

vol·ume

/ˈvälyəm,ˈvälˌyo͞om/

See definitions 

1. 1.

   a book forming part of a work or series.

   "a biography of George Bernard Shaw in three volumes"
2. 2.

   the amount of space that a substance or object occupies, or that is enclosed within a container, especially when great.

   "the sewer could not cope with the volume of rainwater"

 

[therunner Seer]

58 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Except it does assume that. Density is technically defined as the amount of stuff in a given volume. In physics, because particles do have a constant mass, that leads directly to the mass/volume equation. The only way to get more mass/volume in real life is to increase the amount of particles (stuff). Iron Feruchemy gets rid of that constant, making the p=m/v equation no longer valid. That equation only works if the mass of particles remains the same.

Mate, no.
Density of matter, which is the relevant quantity we are talking about here, is defined as mass divided by volume. Full stop, no assumptions about fixed number of particles ,or fixed properties of particles are necessary.

The 'mass volume equation' as you call it, is the very definition of density.

You seem to have no idea what you are talking about, and are changing the definitions to suit your needs. Just ready wikipedia page, that is nice digestible summary. Or crack open a physics text book. You will find zero support for your claims.

Also not sure why you are quoting definition of volume at me, since it has nothing to do with what you are saying.

Edited March 16 by therunner

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

That's just a slightly better Mistborn against a slightly better Windrunner, I'd say it's the same as base Mistborn and Windrunner would be.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

So to clarify, your proposed set up now is

• 5th Ideal Windrunner minus Plate
• Fullborn minus F-steel, F-Pewter, cannot duralumin riot/sooth, and has only pure F-gold sized stores

I think in this case Windrunner can win relatively easily, since they heal better and more, have mobility advantage, and still have one hit kill weapon in Shardblade.
Basically the only advantage Fullborn retains is F-Chromium, F-zinc and F-Iron (for stronger pushes), so it is basically quick thinking lucky Mistborn vs Windrunner, and we know how that goes when Windrunner is just on 3rd Oath.
The only way Fullborn could reliably win is using compounded Chromium, however we don't know how that exactly works so we cannot speculate how that would look like.

I think it makes more sense if Fullborn still retains F-pewter, because in that case both sides have one hit kill possibility (Shardblade to head/spine vs full F-pewter punch to head).

Yes, that's what I'm proposing. I feel like we already exhausted the Fullborn vs Windrunner topic so why not change some weird stuff. I don't want to give F-pewter to Fullborn, as this is his second best weapon against Windrunner. So Fullborn needs to get more sneaky. 

At first I thought Fullborn can mostly win on the ground like 70%, he can close in on Windrunner, even take a Shardblade cut in non lethal area and keep breaking his neck with A-pewter and leeching him out of Stormlight. But Winndrunner has no reasons to stay on the ground. He can get airborne and harass Fullborn from a relatively safe height of 15 feet with a long spear. That's why I take away F-pewter, Fullborn would be able to steel push, jump, grab a spear and pull Windrunner closer and smash his head. But now, it's not that easy. Even if Fullborn gets in the air and hits Windrunner, it won't kill him. Using steelpush will get him in the air, but there Windrunner has better maneuverability. Windrunner can keep poking Fullborn until he runs out of healing, so Fullborn doesn't have much time. A-pewter and A-bendalloy will help him a lot in avoiding Windrunner's strikes, but he has a hard time now to catch him. He needs to get to Windrunner's neck and keep breaking it while leeching. That's now harder. So in this scenario I think Windrunner has a big advantage, and a 70% chance of winning.

 

Or we can change a fighting area. Till this point we assume they are fighting on an open field. What if they are fighting in Elendel? Lot's of metal, lot's of anchors, lot's of tight corners, spaces, turns and narrow roads, many buildings and rooms to hide it. Fighting in the city, low to the ground, would give a huge advantage to Fullborn, and will finally allow him to fully use steel and iron Allomancy. Windrunner can't move as fast as he wants to, and every corner might be a death trap for him. Now Fullborn is dominating the air. Windrunner would be better off staying on the ground, moving slowly, and using his spren to scout out every position, to make sure Fullborn isn't there, and use spren to warn him about incoming Fullborn. Staying on a small open park or square, would be a smart move for Windrunner to do. Getting into a chase among narrow and bendy roads of Elendel would be disadvantageous for Windrunner and most likely will end with his death.

 

2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

As far as the density issue. The way to get around this is "simple" when one knows where most mass comes from. The Higgs field is where individual particles get their mass, but most mass is a derived property of the strong interaction. The majority of mass in the universe exists from the energy of holding quarks together in protons and neutrons. Changing this energy would change the mass. Now that leaves a whole lot of particle physics issues that need to be handwaved but it does fix the density issue 

While this seems as a possible explanation at first, when you think about it, it completely breaks volume even further. Energy holding quarks together is in form of Strong Nuclear Forces - the bigger the force, the closer quarks are together. This means that proton/neutron "sphere of energy" would be smaller, so smaller protons/neutrons, and they would attract other protons/neutrons stronger, which would bring them closer together, as this is also done by Strong Nuclear Forces. You would end up with smaller atoms, which can get closer together with other atoms, which would increase density and decrease the size of that object. So that’s not really a good solution.

[therunner Seer]

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

At first I thought Fullborn can mostly win on the ground like 70%, he can close in on Windrunner, even take a Shardblade cut in non lethal area and keep breaking his neck with A-pewter and leeching him out of Stormlight. But Winndrunner has no reasons to stay on the ground. He can get airborne and harass Fullborn from a relatively safe height of 15 feet with a long spear. That's why I take away F-pewter, Fullborn would be able to steel push, jump, grab a spear and pull Windrunner closer and smash his head. But now, it's not that easy. Even if Fullborn gets in the air and hits Windrunner, it won't kill him. Using steelpush will get him in the air, but there Windrunner has better maneuverability. Windrunner can keep poking Fullborn until he runs out of healing, so Fullborn doesn't have much time. A-pewter and A-bendalloy will help him a lot in avoiding Windrunner's strikes, but he has a hard time now to catch him. He needs to get to Windrunner's neck and keep breaking it while leeching. That's now harder. So in this scenario I think Windrunner has a big advantage, and a 70% chance of winning.

I mean, I don't think you jump scenario would work, the spren can simply quickly vanish when Fullborn is trying to grab it. In RoW Syl does act on her accord to become a small shield for Kaladin, so this would work here as well. And even if not, Windrunner can dismiss and immediately resummon, so Fullborn has nothing to grab. At that point Fullborn is in air, Radiant can uses Reverse Lashing to pull them closer and skewer them with Shardblade.

And without F-steel they are about equally fast physically (with possibly small edge for Fullborn) so landing a hit on Radiant is no longer as trivial (only F-chromium could maybe help with that). That is why I think letting Fullborn keep F-pewter makes sense.

And I don't think A-pewter helps that much with dodging, Stormlight also improves reflexes. A-Bendalloy will definately help, though there is an interesting question of how will Shardblade interact with the bubble, since Shardblade can cut steel-sight lines.

Quote

Or we can change a fighting area. Till this point we assume they are fighting on an open field. What if they are fighting in Elendel? Lot's of metal, lot's of anchors, lot's of tight corners, spaces, turns and narrow roads, many buildings and rooms to hide it. Fighting in the city, low to the ground, would give a huge advantage to Fullborn, and will finally allow him to fully use steel and iron Allomancy. Windrunner can't move as fast as he wants to, and every corner might be a death trap for him. Now Fullborn is dominating the air. Windrunner would be better off staying on the ground, moving slowly, and using his spren to scout out every position, to make sure Fullborn isn't there, and use spren to warn him about incoming Fullborn. Staying on a small open park or square, would be a smart move for Windrunner to do. Getting into a chase among narrow and bendy roads of Elendel would be disadvantageous for Windrunner and most likely will end with his death.

Even in city Windrunner maintains speed and maneuverability advantage, start of RoW, Kaladin and Leshwi have high speed chase thought a crowd  (as in moving between people) which is far more maneuverability then we have ever seen from Mistborn. Windrunner can replicate everything Fullborn can do when it comes to flying, and has more options open as well, so Windrunner still dominates air.

Edited March 16 by therunner

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

32 minutes ago, therunner said:

I mean, I don't think you jump scenario would work, the spren can simply quickly vanish when Fullborn is trying to grab it. In RoW Syl does act on her accord to become a small shield for Kaladin, so this would work here as well. And even if not, Windrunner can dismiss and immediately resummon, so Fullborn has nothing to grab. At that point Fullborn is in air, Radiant can uses Reverse Lashing to pull them closer and skewer them with Shardblade.

Yes, Spear can be dissmissed. That's what makes it harder, as it won't work everytime, or even most of the times.

32 minutes ago, therunner said:

And without F-steel they are about equally fast physically (with possibly small edge for Fullborn) so landing a hit on Radiant is no longer as trivial (only F-chromium could maybe help with that). That is why I think letting Fullborn keep F-pewter makes sense.

And this is why I wanted to take away F-pewter. It's harder to hit and you need to catch them to kill, not just punch them once in the head.

32 minutes ago, therunner said:

And I don't think A-pewter helps that much with dodging, Stormlight also improves reflexes. A-Bendalloy will definately help, though there is an interesting question of how will Shardblade interact with the bubble, since Shardblade can cut steel-sight lines.

Being as fast or slightly faster than a Windrunner would certainly help with dodging, esspecially as Fullborn can use zinc to calculate blade's path. So this will help him keep up with Radiant, not all the times. A-electrum, F-chromium and F-zinc will also help in limited way. 

32 minutes ago, therunner said:

Even in city Windrunner maintains speed and maneuverability advantage, start of RoW, Kaladin and Leshwi have high speed chase thought a crowd  (as in moving between people) which is far more maneuverability then we have ever seen from Mistborn. Windrunner can replicate everything Fullborn can do when it comes to flying, and has more options open as well, so Windrunner still dominates air.

Kaladin was following Leshwi, who can only lash herself once, so Kaladin was using only 1 or 2 lashings (not mentioned) and when approaching the crowd, he still reduced his speed, as he thought that colliding with someone would be too dangerous. Then he flies up to avoid the crowd. Later Leshwi tried that again with her one lashing, and this time she collided with a group of people, when Kaladin stayed above them and almost sliced her. And in the very next paragraph Kaladin noted that because Fused can't fly as fast as Windrunners, they focus on sharp turns and maneuvering around objects, which force Windrunners to reduce their speeds. This fight proves my point, that among narrow streets and sharp turns, Mistborn would have an advantage over Windrunner, as Windrunner can't move that fast. If they tried to move much faster, they would miss a turn, collide with a building, or with those speeds they won't be able to react to Fullborn changing directions, jumping out on them etc. So RoW ch 5 proves that in urban combat, Windrunner would be far limited than on the open field.

Keep in mind, G-forces still canonically affect Windrunners somehow.

Edited March 16 by alder24

[therunner Seer]

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Kaladin was following Leshwi, who can only lash herself once, so Kaladin was using only 1 or 2 lashings (not mentioned) and when approaching the crowd, he still reduced his speed, as he thought that colliding with someone would be too dangerous. Then he flies up to avoid the crowd. Later Leshwi tried that again with her one lashing, and this time she collided with a group of people, when Kaladin stayed above them and almost sliced her. And in the very next paragraph Kaladin noted that because Fused can't fly as fast as Windrunners, they focus on sharp turns and maneuvering around objects, which force Windrunners to reduce their speeds.

That Fused can have only one lashing merely restricts their acceleration, not velocity per se.

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This fight proves my point, that among narrow streets and sharp turns, Mistborn would have an advantage over Windrunner, as Windrunner can't move that fast. If they tried to move much faster, they would miss a turn, collide with a building, or with those speeds they won't be able to react to Fullborn changing directions, jumping out on them etc. So RoW ch 5 proves that in urban combat, Windrunner would be far limited than on the open field.

Problem is, Mistborn/Fullborn will have just as hard if not harder time to maneuver. They are more limited in their acceleration then Windrunner (arbitrary lashings vs whatever metal is available) and in directions they can move in.
Sure Windrunner won't be able to take advantage of their higher top speed as easily, but they are in no way disadvantaged against Mistborn.
This terrain merely brings up Mistborn/Fullborn near the maneuverability Windrunner has all the time, but not beyond them.

I agree that Windrunner would be more limited than in open field, but they would still maintain edge over Mistborn/Fullborn.
Gravitation is simply better then Steel/Iron combo, no matter the situation.

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Keep in mind, G-forces still canonically affect Windrunners somehow.

Yeah, somehow
And Mistborn/Fullborn is affected by those as well, which renders this a moot point.

Edited March 16 by therunner

[StanLemon Worldbringer]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Mate, no.
Density of matter, which is the relevant quantity we are talking about here, is defined as mass divided by volume. Full stop, no assumptions about fixed number of particles ,or fixed properties of particles are necessary.

The 'mass volume equation' as you call it, is the very definition of density.

You seem to have no idea what you are talking about, and are changing the definitions to suit your needs. Just ready wikipedia page, that is nice digestible summary. Or crack open a physics text book. You will find zero support for your claims.

Also not sure why you are quoting definition of volume at me, since it has nothing to do with what you are saying.

Dude. In physics mass is an intrinsic property. P=m/v is a derived equation based on that. Once you get rid of that constant then the equation doesn't work. I'm not changing any definition, volume is defined as the amount of a substance in a given volume. The only reason that equation that defines density even works is because mass stays constant. Because in the real world, the only way to increase mass in a given volume is to increase the amount of particles, that doesn't apply for Feruchemy. You are ignoring the logic of why the equation exists in the first place

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

While this seems as a possible explanation at first, when you think about it, it completely breaks volume even further. Energy holding quarks together is in form of Strong Nuclear Forces - the bigger the force, the closer quarks are together. This means that proton/neutron "sphere of energy" would be smaller, so smaller protons/neutrons, and they would attract other protons/neutrons stronger, which would bring them closer together, as this is also done by Strong Nuclear Forces. You would end up with smaller atoms, which can get closer together with other atoms, which would increase density and decrease the size of that object. So that’s not really a good solution.

This is why I said there are particles physics issues that would need to be handwaved 

Edited March 16 by StanLemon

[therunner Seer]

7 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Dude. In physics mass is an intrinsic property. P=m/v is a derived equation based on that. Once you get rid of that constant then the equation doesn't work.The only reason that equation that defines density even works is because mass stays constant.

Mate, I know that mass is intrinsic property I literally do my PhD in particle physics.

That equation works even if mass is changing, or dependant on other field or whatever. It does not care about anything like that. You don't know what you are talking about.

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I'm not changing any definition, volume is defined as the amount of a substance in a given volume.

That is literally circular definition

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Because in the real world, the only way to increase mass in a given volume is to increase the amount of particles, that doesn't apply for Feruchemy.

No it is not
You can increase mass in given volume by also by adding in energy, that works too. And then, because the mass/energy in the fixed volume increased so did density.

If Feruchemy increases mass in given volume (human body) then by definition the density should increase. Since it is magic it does not happen, but that only shows it is magic and does not have to obey IRL laws.

Edited March 16 by therunner

[StanLemon Worldbringer]

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

That is literally circular definition

I flubbed my wording, but density is defined as the amount of stuff in a volume. Extra energy is still an extra something within that volume 

 

19 minutes ago, therunner said:

Mate, I know that mass is intrinsic property I literally do my PhD in particle physics.

That equation works even if mass is changing, or dependant on other field or whatever. It does not care about anything like that. You don't know what you are talking about.

 

19 minutes ago, therunner said:

No it is not
You can increase mass in given volume by also by adding in energy, that works too. And then, because the mass/energy in the fixed volume increased so did density.

If Feruchemy increases mass in given volume (human body) then by definition the density should increase. Since it is magic it does not happen, but that only shows it is magic and does not have to obey IRL laws.

I'll concede that extra energy to the strong force would not work. But please break down how the equation still works if no extra internal volume is being taken up by the increase of mass how that equation truly applies. If you take two items that are in every other way identical same exact number of particles, same exact space taken up, absolutely no difference whatsoever in composition or energy. Particle interactions being the exact same. But one of them has its quarks and electrons inexplicably be far more massive despite acting exactly as they would with normal mass. Yes you can mathematically say one is more dense, but in any practical real world way would it actually be more dense?

[Frustration Stormfather]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Yes, that's what I'm proposing. I feel like we already exhausted the Fullborn vs Windrunner topic so why not change some weird stuff. I don't want to give F-pewter to Fullborn, as this is his second best weapon against Windrunner. So Fullborn needs to get more sneaky. 

At first I thought Fullborn can mostly win on the ground like 70%, he can close in on Windrunner, even take a Shardblade cut in non lethal area and keep breaking his neck with A-pewter and leeching him out of Stormlight. But Winndrunner has no reasons to stay on the ground. He can get airborne and harass Fullborn from a relatively safe height of 15 feet with a long spear. That's why I take away F-pewter, Fullborn would be able to steel push, jump, grab a spear and pull Windrunner closer and smash his head. But now, it's not that easy. Even if Fullborn gets in the air and hits Windrunner, it won't kill him. Using steelpush will get him in the air, but there Windrunner has better maneuverability. Windrunner can keep poking Fullborn until he runs out of healing, so Fullborn doesn't have much time. A-pewter and A-bendalloy will help him a lot in avoiding Windrunner's strikes, but he has a hard time now to catch him. He needs to get to Windrunner's neck and keep breaking it while leeching. That's now harder. So in this scenario I think Windrunner has a big advantage, and a 70% chance of winning.

 

Or we can change a fighting area. Till this point we assume they are fighting on an open field. What if they are fighting in Elendel? Lot's of metal, lot's of anchors, lot's of tight corners, spaces, turns and narrow roads, many buildings and rooms to hide it. Fighting in the city, low to the ground, would give a huge advantage to Fullborn, and will finally allow him to fully use steel and iron Allomancy. Windrunner can't move as fast as he wants to, and every corner might be a death trap for him. Now Fullborn is dominating the air. Windrunner would be better off staying on the ground, moving slowly, and using his spren to scout out every position, to make sure Fullborn isn't there, and use spren to warn him about incoming Fullborn. Staying on a small open park or square, would be a smart move for Windrunner to do. Getting into a chase among narrow and bendy roads of Elendel would be disadvantageous for Windrunner and most likely will end with his death.

I was thinking about doing a different order personally. Specifically Edgedancers since they can nullify f-steel

[Heilven Crew Leader]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

F-Iron breaks:

• Energy conservation as you point out
• Density remaining unchanged for some reason (i.e. Wax does not become immune to bullets)
• Punches don't hit as hard as they should (on this we can agree to disagree)

None of the points above can be explained via Higgs field.

I mean I disagree on points 2 and 3 (but agree to disagree on point 3). If you become more massive because of increased reactions via the higgs field, your density definitely increases. You are correct, density is M/V so density would increase. What I disagree with is that increasing your density must therefore increase your- actually I thought it through and I realized it has a cascading effect. I was going to say that increasing your mass in this way does not increase the electromagnetic bonds holding you together, so a bullet still tears through you just like normal. Wait no I changed my mind again because I actually thought about coloumb's law and it doesn't have anything to do with mass. So I still agree with myself. You have more mass, but the force holding your atoms and molecules together isn't any stronger. So a bullet imparts a smaller relative change in momentum to you, but still tears right through you. Basically you are harder to move (expected) but not harder to cut. Let me know if this doesn't properly track with the standard model, I'm not quite a PhD student in particle physics (Yet. I will be in a couple of years)

I have very little understanding of the higgs field to be fair, and from what I know mass is just about the least defined thing we have in physics in relation to its obvious importance.

[StanLemon Worldbringer]

24 minutes ago, Heilven said:

You have more mass, but the force holding your atoms and molecules together isn't any stronger. So a bullet imparts a smaller relative change in momentum to you, but still tears right through you. Basically you are harder to move (expected) but not harder to cut

This here is one of the reasons I take issue with the whole density changing aspect. More massive things in the real world just plain have more stuff crammed into a space, particles energy or whatever. But Feruchemy doesn't change the amount of internal space taken up in that volume. Sure it will take extra energy to to move those particles but there aren't any extra particles to move. 

Edit: wow the connection to your quote was more obvious in my head. The basic thing is just that there is no difference except that particles are more massive 

Edited March 16 by StanLemon

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

That Fused can have only one lashing merely restricts their acceleration, not velocity per se.

Problem is, Mistborn/Fullborn will have just as hard if not harder time to maneuver. They are more limited in their acceleration then Windrunner (arbitrary lashings vs whatever metal is available) and in directions they can move in.
Sure Windrunner won't be able to take advantage of their higher top speed as easily, but they are in no way disadvantaged against Mistborn.
This terrain merely brings up Mistborn/Fullborn near the maneuverability Windrunner has all the time, but not beyond them.

I agree that Windrunner would be more limited than in open field, but they would still maintain edge over Mistborn/Fullborn.
Gravitation is simply better then Steel/Iron combo, no matter the situation.

Yeah, somehow
And Mistborn/Fullborn is affected by those as well, which renders this a moot point.

Gravitation is good, but in an urban environment Fullborn with F-iron will be as good as Gravitation. Which is very important as that would put them on the equal ground. And he can constantly shower Windrunner with metal debris. In air there are no surfaces that Windrunner can attach reverse lashings to, using a Sharshield would protect him from one direction, but not from the metals being pulled from behind his back. And when Windrunner would lose Fullborn, then spren also won't know where he is, as spren was distracted by being a shield, and couldn't follow Fullborn. Fullborn can enter buildings, and move through them, using bronze to detect Windrunner.

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I was thinking about doing a different order personally. Specifically Edgedancers since they can nullify f-steel

How can Edgedancers nullify F-steel? Didn't we already establish in a different thread, that Abrasion, and being frictionless, don't change impact force.

[Frustration Stormfather]

Just now, alder24 said:

How can Edgedancers nullify F-steel? Didn't we already establish in a different thread, that Abrasion, and being frictionless, don't change impact force.

F-steel, not A-steel, you can't run without friction.

[therunner Seer]

32 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I flubbed my wording, but density is defined as the amount of stuff in a volume. Extra energy is still an extra something within that volume

But it does not have to be extra stuff, if you change Higgs field, there is no more stuff, but the mass changes while the volume remains fixed. Hence density changes.

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I'll concede that extra energy to the strong force would not work. But please break down how the equation still works if no extra internal volume is being taken up by the increase of mass how that equation truly applies. If you take two items that are in every other way identical same exact number of particles, same exact space taken up, absolutely no difference whatsoever in composition or energy. Particle interactions being the exact same. But one of them has its quarks and electrons inexplicably be far more massive despite acting exactly as they would with normal mass. Yes you can mathematically say one is more dense, but in any practical real world way would it actually be more dense?

Yes, the second object would be more dense in every practical sense and physical sense.

If the first object happened to have density of water it would float, but the second object would sink.
If you shot the second object, the bullet would not penetrate as deep.

In every single instance where mass or density plays role, the second object would behave differently.

31 minutes ago, Heilven said:

I mean I disagree on points 2 and 3 (but agree to disagree on point 3). If you become more massive because of increased reactions via the higgs field, your density definitely increases. You are correct, density is M/V so density would increase. What I disagree with is that increasing your density must therefore increase your- actually I thought it through and I realized it has a cascading effect. I was going to say that increasing your mass in this way does not increase the electromagnetic bonds holding you together, so a bullet still tears through you just like normal. Wait no I changed my mind again because I actually thought about coloumb's law and it doesn't have anything to do with mass. So I still agree with myself. You have more mass, but the force holding your atoms and molecules together isn't any stronger. Basically you are harder to move (expected) but not harder to cut.

Yeah, the force holding you together won't increase or at least not too much (it would have to increase, otherwise at more extreme ends Wax would crush himself).

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So a bullet imparts a smaller relative change in momentum to you, but still tears right through you.

However, because of increased density, the bullet has to do more work to penetrate you, so it would in-fact increase how hard it is to damage you.
At more extreme ends this alone would make you bulletproof, simply by conservation of momentum.
For example bone density increased 20x would make F-Iron feruchemists basically immune to headshots, even soft tissue would suddenly be denser than most armor.

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Let me know if this doesn't properly track with the standard model, I'm not quite a PhD student in particle physics (Yet. I will be in a couple of years)

This entire discussion has nothing to do with Standard model to be fair, all of this is just mechanics.
And good luck on your studies

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I have very little understanding of the higgs field to be fair, and from what I know mass is just about the least defined thing we have in physics in relation to its obvious importance.

Well, we know what 'mass' is about as well we know what 'electric charge' or 'color charge' or 'spin' is. It is just some intrinsic property of the fields we use, and it has some consequences.
The nice/odd part is that it seems that fields should be naturally massless, and only symmetry breaking through Higgs fields results in mass (via interaction with Higgs condensate).

Edit: At @alder24

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Gravitation is good, but in an urban environment Fullborn with F-iron will be as good as Gravitation. Which is very important as that would put them on the equal ground. And he can constantly shower Windrunner with metal debris. In air there are no surfaces that Windrunner can attach reverse lashings to, using a Sharshield would protect him from one direction, but not from the metals being pulled from behind his back. And when Windrunner would lose Fullborn, then spren also won't know where he is, as spren was distracted by being a shield, and couldn't follow Fullborn. Fullborn can enter buildings, and move through them, using bronze to detect Windrunner.

I would say Fullborn with F-Iron will be close, but still not as good as Gravitation in urban environment.
Gravitation alone already does everything F-Iron + Steel/Iron does, but even in urban environment it will retain advantage of being more flexible (no limitation on acceleration, no limitation on direction).

Windrunner can shield themselves from debris with simple Reverse Lashing, not too difficult.
And spren can somehow percieve even in Shardblade form, so being shield would not distract spren.

But I do concede that urban environment would help Fullborn offensively via more metal being nearby.

Edited March 16 by therunner

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

F-steel, not A-steel, you can't run without friction.

That would require Edgedancer to smear Fullborn with Stormlight, which they can leech of themself, as this is like a layer placed on them. Not to mention how would they catch Fullborn in the first place and apply Abrasion on them, when Fullborn can always run faster than them, think faster, and with electrum they could see in their future being frictionless. Fullborn would always be able to outmaneuver Edgedancer and avoid being smeared with Stormlight, crash his plate and kill him with a single punch. 

They can make some area around them frictionless, but Fullborn can jump, steel push themself to Edgedancer, leech it from the ground with bare feet running through it like Moses through the Red sea. Fullborn can even use it like a slide while drastically reducing his mass, which by conservation of momentum p=mv would drastically increase his speed, and in the very last moment before reaching Edgedancer, he can drastically increase his weight, crushing into him and smashing his plate to pieces.

Good thinking, cool idea that would work alone against F-steel, but Fullborn has to many tools that he can use to just igonre it.

6 minutes ago, therunner said:

Windrunner can shield themselves from debris with simple Reverse Lashing, not too difficult.

They can, but they have nothing to attach it to while being airborne. If they are constantly showered by metal objects, they would have to stay close to walls/ground to constantly create reverse lashing surfaces, which would further limit their maneuverability. If they would pick up a wooden plank, it would soon be shredded to pieces, and it wouldn't be protected from objects pulled behind their back. Some metal objects on which they can apply reverse lashing can be pushed out of their hands, and still won't protect their back.

12 minutes ago, therunner said:

And spren can somehow percieve even in Shardblade form, so being shield would not distract spren.

Spren can, but they are limited. I think there were instances, when Kal asked Syl if she saw something, and she answered him that she was distracted by being a Shardblade. Even when fighting Lezian, Syl was on a look out in her physical form. So Spren in physical form can help and inform Windrunner of Fullborn suddenly closing in, like Syl in OB battle warned Kal in the very last moment of Fused attacking him, sometimes too late for him to avoid it, but following Fullborn after he disappears from Windrunner's sight, that's too much.

[Wits instant noodles Idrian Monk]

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

which they can leech of themself

can they? if they were to leach themselfs they would burn all their metals to right?

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

3 minutes ago, Wits instant noodles said:

can they? if they were to leach themselfs they would burn all their metals to right?

No, because Abrasion is applied on a surface, it's a layer that's covering their body. It's outside of their body, so they can leech it like it's on the ground. Abrasion doesn't invest their bodies.

[Wits instant noodles Idrian Monk]

ah that makes since thanks