Fullborn V.S. 5th Ideal Windrunners

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 

Straight from the coppermind.  

  Reveal hidden contents

An iron Ferring is known as a Skimmer. Iron is used to store or retrieve (gain) physical mass.^[2] This is accomplished by changing the Skimmer's mass, not by changing the effect of gravity on the Skimmer, i.e. it does not modify weight directly. This change does not affect things that the Skimmer wears, but is great enough that a Skimmer storing mass can typically safely fall any distance, as the Skimmer's surface area is typically sufficient to slow the fall to safe speeds.^[14]

A Skimmer tapping iron can grow proportionally heavier than normal, and although this is not as useful as storing mass in many cases, it has significant martial applications. Specifically, by tapping iron during key moments, Skimmers can add force to their blows, and can use added weight to withstand attacks. It can be used to counter Coinshots or Lurchers, for example. By increasing weight when pushed, one can instead push the Coinshot back. Furthermore, the added mass from tapping an ironmind can wreak havoc with Steelpushes and Ironpulls if the Skimmer is being used as the anchor.^[15]

Tapping iron grants the Skimmer the strength required to remain standing,^[16] including a partial increase in the density of their body,^[17] but this increase in density is limited and does not, for example, affect the Skimmer's vulnerability to penetration.^[16]

The law of conservation of momentum still exists when using iron Feruchemy, so while tapping weight doesn't significantly increase the speed of falling (not considering air resistance), decreasing one's weight to half will double one's speed.^[18][19]

Feruchemical iron interferes with an individual's interaction with the Higgs field.^[20]

Iron doesn't increase density but it effects everything around the user as if there were more mass there.  

Thus your equations for kinetic energy and moment stay the same and as mass of the object goes up the level of damage would as well.  

 

That is strictly not true

Spoiler

Questioner

Does Iron store mass or weight?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The thing is it really does involve mass, but I’m breaking some physics rules, basically. I have to break a number of physics rules in order to make Magic work in the first place. Those whole laws of Thermodynamics, I’m like “You are my bane!” (laughter) But I try to work within the framework, and I have reasonings built up for myself, and some of them have to be kind of arbitrary. But the thing is, it does store mass if you look at how it interacts, but when a Feruchemist punches someone, you’re not having a mass transference of a 1000 pounds transferring the mass into someone else.

So there are a few little tweaks. You can go talk to Peter, because Peter has the actual math. Oh Peter’s back there. Peter is dressed up as Allomancer Jak from the broadsheet. In fact we’re giving some out broadsheets, aren’t we Peter. So when you come through the line, we’re giving out Broadsheets. Please don’t take fifty—I think we might have enough for everybody. The broadsheets are the newspaper from the Alloy of Law time. It’s an inworld newspaper. It’s actually reproduced in the book in four different pages, and we put it together in one big broadsheet.

So anyway, you can talk with him, he’s got more of the math of it. I explained the concept to Peter and he’s better with the actual math, so he said “We’ll figure it out.”

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/239/#e10010

 

 

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Your mistaken again. That WoB you did is about density and muscle. Brandon has repeatedly said that F-Iron increases mass. That is not up for debate. A Skimmer doesn't need to have an increase in strength to hit harder, the increase in mass does the job for them. More mass means more force. That is elementary physics. And we have seen it happen twice with Sazed. On of those examples can arguably applied to him tapping Pewter too, but the other can't. You are acting as if strength is the only way to increase force of blows which isn't the case. And yes, before you ask, physics does allow an increase of mass without increasing density. There are a whole slew of particle physics issues that have to be handwaved but you don't need to increase density to increase mass.

Mass is involved but it does not follow physics at all, not just in density, and as the WoB up above says you cannot puch someone with 1000x force even if you are 1000x heavier.

So no, there is no more force.

8 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Assuming that he was using 6 weeks as a normal travel time with 8 hours of sleep and and about an hour for eating each day. He would have still had to compress approximately 630 hours of travel time into approximately 144 hours even accounting for his lack of need to sleep. That's something like 4.5x faster average. If he truly was only using them occasionally he would have to have tapped A LOT each time for the average to balance out. Either way, whether he used them occasionally or the majority of the trip, it just isn't enough stores to follow the WoB example. 

Or Sazed estimated because he had absolutely no way to tell with certainty.

[Heilven]

14 hours ago, therunner said:

Hollow point would break apart right? IF so, that would be a good way to kill unsuspecting Radiant.

Yep! Usage is a war crime because it's basically impossible to treat the wound on the field. The bullet should get stuck in the brain, which would impede all healing. I bet stormlight would keep you "alive" for a while until it just gives up and you die. Unless the healing could somehow push the shards out, but that seems unlikely. So in the future, radiants better wear helmets all the time haha

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That is strictly not true

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Does Iron store mass or weight?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The thing is it really does involve mass, but I’m breaking some physics rules, basically. I have to break a number of physics rules in order to make Magic work in the first place. Those whole laws of Thermodynamics, I’m like “You are my bane!” (laughter) But I try to work within the framework, and I have reasonings built up for myself, and some of them have to be kind of arbitrary. But the thing is, it does store mass if you look at how it interacts, but when a Feruchemist punches someone, you’re not having a mass transference of a 1000 pounds transferring the mass into someone else.

So there are a few little tweaks. You can go talk to Peter, because Peter has the actual math. Oh Peter’s back there. Peter is dressed up as Allomancer Jak from the broadsheet. In fact we’re giving some out broadsheets, aren’t we Peter. So when you come through the line, we’re giving out Broadsheets. Please don’t take fifty—I think we might have enough for everybody. The broadsheets are the newspaper from the Alloy of Law time. It’s an inworld newspaper. It’s actually reproduced in the book in four different pages, and we put it together in one big broadsheet.

So anyway, you can talk with him, he’s got more of the math of it. I explained the concept to Peter and he’s better with the actual math, so he said “We’ll figure it out.”

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/239/#e10010

 

 

Mass is involved but it does not follow physics at all, not just in density, and as the WoB up above says you cannot puch someone with 1000x force even if you are 1000x heavier.

So no, there is no more force.

Or Sazed estimated because he had absolutely no way to tell with certainty.

I hear you saying not true but what is it about the skimmers we see on screen increasing their weight and breaking through floors, destroying buildings and holding gates closed that makes you think being heavier while swinging suddenly does nothing? I don't recall Wax tapping pewter or burning pewter to crush the ground beneath him. 

To say that tapping weight effects the world around you in every way with the single exception of when it comes to hurting other beings is strictly false.  You can crumble floors but adding weight behind a hammer magically does nothing because that hammer was used to hit a kandra? 

Iron on its own isnt great for fighting because it slows you down and if slowed down proportionally to the weight you gain then you would have the same force.  But sitting on a person would still crush them as well as it does the floor during the explosion. If Wax pushed on a plate of metal with his allomancy that was crushing a person and tapped the floor would the person be fine because they are organic and can't be hurt by a thousands of lbs crasher while the floor gets destroyed under them?  

 

 

[therunner]

9 minutes ago, Heilven said:

Yep! Usage is a war crime because it's basically impossible to treat the wound on the field. The bullet should get stuck in the brain, which would impede all healing. I bet stormlight would keep you "alive" for a while until it just gives up and you die. Unless the healing could somehow push the shards out, but that seems unlikely. So in the future, radiants better wear helmets all the time haha

If the hollow point is aluminum, healing cannot push it out (non aluminum could be possibly pushed out).

6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I hear you saying not true but what is it about the skimmers we see on screen increasing their weight and breaking through floors, destroying buildings and holding gates closed that makes you think being heavier while swinging suddenly does nothing? I don't recall Wax tapping pewter or burning pewter to crush the ground beneath him. 

Frankly we don't know, but that is how it works per Brandon, as the WoB @Frustration quoted shows.
Passively your weight is greater/lesser when tapping, so you break through floors, and are more difficult to move forcibly.

But your punches hit no more harder or weaker.

Quote

To say that tapping weight effects the world around you in every way with the single exception of when it comes to hurting other beings is strictly false.

It is not strictly false, that is pretty much what the WoB says.

Just quoting the relevant part.

Spoiler

But the thing is, it does store mass if you look at how it interacts, but when a Feruchemist punches someone, you’re not having a mass transference of a 1000 pounds transferring the mass into someone else

Simply put, no tapping F-Iron won't make your punches land any harder, because that is how Brandon decided the magic works.

Edit: Ahh, apologies for double posting, corrected now.

Edited March 14, 2023 by therunner

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I hear you saying not true but what is it about the skimmers we see on screen increasing their weight and breaking through floors, destroying buildings and holding gates closed that makes you think being heavier while swinging suddenly does nothing? I don't recall Wax tapping pewter or burning pewter to crush the ground beneath him. 

To say that tapping weight effects the world around you in every way with the single exception of when it comes to hurting other beings is strictly false.  You can crumble floors but adding weight behind a hammer magically does nothing because that hammer was used to hit a kandra? 

It does not make any sense, and Brandon himself acknowledges that, but says "I've made these rules I just have to follow them."

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Six

The fight in the ballroom

From the early days of the Mistborn books, I'd been planning how an Allomantic gunfight would go down. I felt it the next evolution in what has been stylistically a big part of these books.

There is a fine line to walk in a lot of these sequences. I've made something of a name for myself in the fantasy world by attempting to mix some scientific reasoning with my magic systems. At the same time, Allomancy was designed precisely with action sequences in mind. I wanted them to be powerful and cinematic—and a cinematic fight sequence is often at odds with realism. (Watch two people who really know what they're doing fight with swords sometime, then watch any fight sequence in a film. Most of the time, the film sequences stray far from what would really happen.)

So, as I said, I walk a line. Sometimes, there are things I just can't do because they violate what I've set up as the rules of the world. Other times, I design the setting and nature of the fight specifically to allow for certain types of cinematic sequences. One thing I like a lot about Wax’s abilities is the power he has to manipulate his weight. There's some realism to what he does—for example, increasing his weight doesn't make him fall more quickly, but it allows him to do some powerful things while falling. Destroying the chandeliers is an example.

At the same time, I acknowledge that the weight manipulation aspect of Feruchemy is one of its more baffling powers, scientifically. Is he changing his mass? If so, he should become more dense, which I don't actually make the case when it plays out in fights. (Otherwise, increasing his weight enough would make him impervious to bullets.) So, if it's not mass manipulation, is it gravity manipulation, like Szeth and Kaladin do? Well, again, not really—as when his weight increases, his strength and ability to uphold that weight increase as well. Beyond that, Wax can't make himself so light that he has no weight at all.

So . . . well, at this point, the ability to explain it scientifically breaks down. I do like what it does, but I have to set its boundaries and stick to them—and accept that some of what's going on is irrational. (And don't get me started on what should really be happening scientifically when Wayne speeds up time.)

Footnote: Brandon has stated that iron Feruchemy works by manipulating the Higgs field.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/40/#e692

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Iron on its own isnt great for fighting because it slows you down and if slowed down proportionally to the weight you gain then you would have the same force.  But sitting on a person would still crush them as well as it does the floor during the explosion. If Wax pushed on a plate of metal with his allomancy that was crushing a person and tapped the floor would the person be fine because they are organic and can't be hurt by a thousands of lbs crasher while the floor gets destroyed under them?  

Oh you could totally crush someone under you, you just can't punch em harder.

[StanLemon]

45 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Mass is involved but it does not follow physics at all, not just in density, and as the WoB up above says you cannot puch someone with 1000x force even if you are 1000x heavier.

This is directly contradicted by HoA where Sazed hits a Kandra hard enough to break its stone True Body.  Until he retcons this in a book the book takes priority 

Edited March 14, 2023 by StanLemon

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

This is directly contradicted by HoA where Sazed hits a Kandra hard enough to break its stone True Body.  

Which as explained before, and this is the third time now, tapping iron slightly increases your strength.

And stone in the shape of bones is not that hard to break.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

32 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It does not make any sense, and Brandon himself acknowledges that, but says "I've made these rules I just have to follow them."

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Six

The fight in the ballroom

From the early days of the Mistborn books, I'd been planning how an Allomantic gunfight would go down. I felt it the next evolution in what has been stylistically a big part of these books.

There is a fine line to walk in a lot of these sequences. I've made something of a name for myself in the fantasy world by attempting to mix some scientific reasoning with my magic systems. At the same time, Allomancy was designed precisely with action sequences in mind. I wanted them to be powerful and cinematic—and a cinematic fight sequence is often at odds with realism. (Watch two people who really know what they're doing fight with swords sometime, then watch any fight sequence in a film. Most of the time, the film sequences stray far from what would really happen.)

So, as I said, I walk a line. Sometimes, there are things I just can't do because they violate what I've set up as the rules of the world. Other times, I design the setting and nature of the fight specifically to allow for certain types of cinematic sequences. One thing I like a lot about Wax’s abilities is the power he has to manipulate his weight. There's some realism to what he does—for example, increasing his weight doesn't make him fall more quickly, but it allows him to do some powerful things while falling. Destroying the chandeliers is an example.

At the same time, I acknowledge that the weight manipulation aspect of Feruchemy is one of its more baffling powers, scientifically. Is he changing his mass? If so, he should become more dense, which I don't actually make the case when it plays out in fights. (Otherwise, increasing his weight enough would make him impervious to bullets.) So, if it's not mass manipulation, is it gravity manipulation, like Szeth and Kaladin do? Well, again, not really—as when his weight increases, his strength and ability to uphold that weight increase as well. Beyond that, Wax can't make himself so light that he has no weight at all.

So . . . well, at this point, the ability to explain it scientifically breaks down. I do like what it does, but I have to set its boundaries and stick to them—and accept that some of what's going on is irrational. (And don't get me started on what should really be happening scientifically when Wayne speeds up time.)

Footnote: Brandon has stated that iron Feruchemy works by manipulating the Higgs field.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/40/#e692

 

 

 

Oh you could totally crush someone under you, you just can't punch em harder.

"Punch um harder".  

Can I stick my arm out in front of me, ramp up my weight to 10000lbs and sprint with steel/ pewter and hit them that way or would it just land like a totally normal run in with a 200 lb dude?  

But if I do it to a wall I will obliterate it completely.  

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

"punch um harder"

em is an abbreviation of them

2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 Can I stick my arm out in front of me, ramp up my weight to 10000lbs and sprint with steel/ pewter and hit them that way or would it just land like a totally normal run in with a 200 lb dude?  

It would probably hurt a bit more but yes.

3 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

But if I do it to a wall I will obliterate it completely.  

No.

Run straight at them and jump in the air before impact though, and then you'll get the reaction you want.

Why? That's how it was written, I don't know what else to tell you.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

em is an abbreviation of them

It would probably hurt a bit more but yes.

No.

Run straight at them and jump in the air before impact though, and then you'll get the reaction you want.

Why? That's how it was written, I don't know what else to tell you.

Alright.  I am going to take my entire breakdown of the fight and change one thing.  Instead of standing and punching you jump up and superman punch them at the weight of a few thousand lbs, or in the case of crumbling a building a few hundred thousand lbs perhaps?  

Now, since you are in the air and in motion moving 10x faster than a normal human with all of the enhancements you can fall on them at the same time as punch them and gain the benefit of iron.  So long as you are in motion from the air at a downward angle.  Cause it is written like that.  

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Alright.  I am going to take my entire breakdown of the fight and change one thing.  Instead of standing and punching you jump up and superman punch them at the weight of a few thousand lbs, or in the case of crumbling a building a few hundred thousand lbs perhaps?  

Now, since you are in the air and in motion moving 10x faster than a normal human with all of the enhancements you can fall on them at the same time as punch them and gain the benefit of iron.  So long as you are in motion from the air at a downward angle.  Cause it is written like that.  

Yeah that works.

Though I will say that a Windrunner would have to be stupid to be low enough to allow that.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

Just now, Frustration said:

Yeah that works.

Though I will say that a Windrunner would have to be stupid to be low enough to allow that.

They would both have to be stupid to want to fight eachother.  Don't they know they should be combining forces to defeat odium and autonomy?  

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

They would both have to be stupid to want to fight eachother.  Don't they know they should be combining forces to defeat odium and autonomy?  

The conditions of their worlds are irrelevant, they've been summoned to a different one and ordered to fight to the death for our enjoyment.

[StanLemon]

48 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And stone in the shape of bones is not that hard to break.

It's cushioned by the flesh of the Kandra, I highly doubt you could put a bone shaped stone in a sack completely surrounded by meat, tackle it and break it.  Not so easy to break in that condition 

Edited March 15, 2023 by StanLemon

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

It's cushioned by the flesh of the Kandra, I highly doubt you could put a bone shaped stone in a sack completely surrounded by meat, tackle it and break it.  Not so easy to break in that condition 

You could easily break human bones in that situation, so no it's not that difficult.

[StanLemon]

Just now, Frustration said:

You could easily break human bones in that situation, so no it's not that difficult.

Because he had greater mass than usual, not because he was stronger. 

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Because he had greater mass than usual, not because he was stronger. 

A regular human could break someone else's bones with a hammer.

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Because he had greater mass than usual, not because he was stronger. 

That's just not true, as the multiple WoBs I've posted have shown, iron does not allow you to hit someone harder, but it does give a slight increase in strength, with Brandon admitting that he got some f-iron wrong in era 1.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

A regular human could break someone else's bones with a hammer.

That's just not true, as the multiple WoBs I've posted have shown, iron does not allow you to hit someone harder, but it does give a slight increase in strength, with Brandon admitting that he got some f-iron wrong in era 1.

The slight increase of strength gets more than offset by the fact that everything is heavier. You still move slower.  So the hammer swing would already be going slower than even his normal bodyweight would have let him move I thought.  

Hence Wax's ability to move around lighter and quicker while specifically storing iron even though it takes away a measure of his baseline strength.  

Either way if we retcon the scene to be that Brandon just unintentionally forgot to include that Sazed took a small hop and was 1/2 an inch off of the floor for the strike then iron totally explains it as well. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[StanLemon]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

A regular human could break someone else's bones with a hammer.

Except that isn't how he broke them. He broke them by tackling which is dependent on mass. Not a focused strike like a hammer

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's just not true, as the multiple WoBs I've posted have shown, iron does not allow you to hit someone harder, but it does give a slight increase in strength, with Brandon admitting that he got some f-iron wrong in era 1.

And I keep telling you, either those WoB don't apply because they are talking about something else, or they are directly contradicted by the books. And. Books. Take. Priority. Over. WoB.

Hell, the one you like to use of Brandon admitting he's wrong is about density not mass or force transference. And that density WoB happened because he directly contradicted what Sazed said about density in Alloy of Law

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

5 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Except that isn't how he broke them. He broke them by tackling which is dependent on mass. Not a focused strike like a hammer

And I keep telling you, either those WoB don't apply because they are talking about something else, or they are directly contradicted by the books. And. Books. Take. Priority. Over. WoB.

Hell, the one you like to use of Brandon admitting he's wrong is about density not mass or force transference. And that density WoB happened because he directly contradicted what Sazed said about density in Alloy of Law

I figured it out though. So long as Sazeds body wasn't touching the ground during his spear then it works fine.  

If there is connection to the ground then iron doesn't work except against any potential opponents.  

This actually works out well for the radiant as in order to use iron the fullborn cannot be connected to the ground.  

But if you stored your connection to the ground while throwing a punch would you still be grounded and not gain any benefit from mass or would you still have jump up a couple inches before you can gain combat benefits from it.  

And in the WoB it was specifically punches that it doesn't work for.  So while grounded you could still throw elbows, knees and kicks while gaining the benefit no matter your current level of connection to the ground. 

[Frustration]

18 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Except that isn't how he broke them. He broke them by tackling which is dependent on mass. Not a focused strike like a hammer

Then he's above them and that has no bearing on punching someone harder.

18 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

And. Books. Take. Priority. Over. WoB.

Unless Brandon says that the books are wrong, which he has multiple times, in fact era 1 has the most issues out of all of the Cosmere books, and has required multiple retcons over the years to keep it within the rules of the rest of the Cosmere. Atium being the most obvious one.

18 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

And I keep telling you, either those WoB don't apply because they are talking about something else, or they are directly contradicted by the books. 

Not once in the books does someone tap iron and the punch with outrageous force.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Frustration

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Then he's above them and that has no bearing on punching someone harder.

Unless Brandon says that the books are wrong, which he has multiple times, in fact era 1 has the most issues out of all of the Cosmere books, and has required multiple retcons over the years to keep it within the rules of the rest of the Cosmere. Atium being the most obvious one.

Not once in the books does someone tap iron and the punch with outrageous force.

The books have countless examples of iron being used to destroy the world around the feruchemist.  But due to having no specific examples of a punch deleting a persons face it is accepted that a person must be airborne for a strike to use the increased mass against the intended target... unless the intended target is inanimate. 

[StanLemon]

38 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Then he's above them and that has no bearing on punching someone harder.

In a tackle you hit them at the side. And in WoA he explicitly says increases weight adds force to blows. Brandon has never said this was wrong. The closest was is saying Sazed was wrong about density. There is a WoB about weight and punches, but it is contradicted by the books and he didn't say the book was wrong

Quote

Unless Brandon says that the books are wrong, which he has multiple times, in fact era 1 has the most issues out of all of the Cosmere books, and has required multiple retcons over the years to keep it within the rules of the rest of the Cosmere. Atium being the most obvious one.

Yes, show me the WoB where he says the book is wrong about force transference from higher mass. Again, the one where he talks about the the tapping weight and punches he doesn't say Sazed or the book is wrong. Also, there have been many times where a WoB has been wrong and when someone brings up the contradiction he's admitted to be mistaken. It's almost like a questions immediately answered isn’t always accurate.

Quote

Not once in the books does someone tap iron and the punch with outrageous force.

Sazed hits Marsh. An important thing to remember is that the increase in weight is distributed throughout the body. If a Feruchemist increased their weight to a ton, the fist would only be about 10 lbs. Not an extravagant weight but it would make the blow hurt worse. 

Edit: Brandon doesn't even necessarily need to be wrong about the 1000lb force transference comment. Assuming an average male weight of 200lbs, a hand is about a 1lb. For the fist to be able to strike with 1000lbs of weight behind it, the Feruchemist would be needing to tap enough weight to a hundred tons at least. We've seen maybe one example of a Skimmer tapping anywhere near that much weight. The end of Alloy of Law when Wax tapped years of stored weight 

Edited March 15, 2023 by StanLemon

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

20 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

In a tackle you hit them at the side. And in WoA he explicitly says increases weight adds force to blows. Brandon has never said this was wrong. The closest was is saying Sazed was wrong about density. There is a WoB about weight and punches, but it is contradicted by the books and he didn't say the book was wrong

Yes, show me the WoB where he says the book is wrong about force transference from higher mass. Again, the one where he talks about the the tapping weight and punches he doesn't say Sazed or the book is wrong. Also, there have been many times where a WoB has been wrong and when someone brings up the contradiction he's admitted to be mistaken. It's almost like a questions immediately answered isn’t always accurate.

Sazed hits Marsh. An important thing to remember is that the increase in weight is distributed throughout the body. If a Feruchemist increased their weight to a ton, the fist would only be about 10 lbs. Not an extravagant weight but it would make the blow hurt worse. 

When striking the weight of the whole body helps out.  The same punch thrown at 2 different weights should exert force proportionally to the whole no matter what weight they are at.  

 

[Heilven]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

It does not make any sense, and Brandon himself acknowledges that, but says "I've made these rules I just have to follow them."

You are really overusing that density quote here. He figured that one out, it's manipulating the higgs field. Your density definitely does increase, you just don't have any extra electromagnetic force holding your body together(Aka, no extra stuff, that stuff just has more mass). If your fist has more mass but you can move it at the same speed, you most certainly can hit harder. But as other people have explained, increasing your mass to a point where you get a meaningful change to your punch energy, but don't fall through the floor/ground, is a very small margin. Plus, it would take a ton of stored weight for one punch. We never see anyone do it because Sazed could always tap pewter, and Wax didn't ever want to be in melee combat to begin with.

The issues with Iron feruchemy come from conservation of energy, not from density. This wob is old and he has since fixed the gravity/density problem.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

in fact era 1 has the most issues out of all of the Cosmere books, and has required multiple retcons over the years to keep it within the rules of the rest of the Cosmere. Atium being the most obvious one

Also I think we should be specific about retcons. He has never retconned something to say "that definitely shouldn't have been able to be possible". He has always retconned something as "that person was wrong/didn't know the full picture". So atium/nalatium simply retcons something no one was capable of actually knowing. I also think nalatium is a good retcon and he should keep that for the movies but that's just my thinking.

Anyway, he doesn't ever retcon a scene to be incorrect, he very much doesn't want to do that ever. He has only retconned stuff with unreliable narrators.