Fullborn V.S. 5th Ideal Windrunners

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

9 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Two things.

First, we have already gone over how that rate of decay can't possibly be as bad as Brandon's example, otherwise most of the displays we have seen in the books would be impossible.

Secondly, Brandon clearly flubbed up his math on this. He's clearly using a compression of halving things, and basic mathematics dictate that compressing dictates a doubling for every halving of time. And he prefaced his example with 'in mathematical terms' so just because his flub happened doesn't mean the numbers he used should be taken as gospel on this, he was trying to get the point of Investiture loss across.

I agree pretty well with what we came to a page or so ago.  I was grateful for the thoughts and math.  

Personally I feel like it works out even better for the fullborn either way.  

A. Feruchemy base is stronger because compression isn't as punished as I thought. 

B. Compounding is worse but more balanced in the long term.  

 

If it worked the way I thought it did (and the way it seems frustration may still see it to a degree) then... 

A. Base feruchemy is weaker than what we have seen. 

B. Compounding becomes far more imbalanced and OP.  

 

I see it as a total wash either way for the fullborn as either the feruchemy is stronger or the compounding is stronger.  Either way 8x speed for a compounder will last a good while. What we saw of the bands was 40x more.  

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

Relatively speaking it is. People's reaction times are only fractions of a second better. Considering how much only fractions of a second make a difference, imagine how having whole relative seconds better reaction speeds would give an advantage.

I don't think that's the right way to compare. 0.1 second (about maximum) vs 0.3 seconds (slower than average) is an x3 factor even though it's only "fractions of a second". And if the slower than average person with no enhancement is at 0.3 seconds, there's no way to get whole seconds of advantage - even if f-Steel gives you a reaction time of 0.02 seconds instead.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Bow, arrow, spear and a several times bigger brain might have some factor in this. Don't you think?

But a big cat doesn't have a brain big enough, to understand pointy stick hurts.

The weapon was actually my point, reach advantage - thus the comparison to Shardblade vs Chromium Leeching touch.

Big cats aren't sapient, but they are certainly smart enough to know that being stabbed is bad! But they have momentum. That's why spears were so effective against big animals, momentum doesn't necessarily give them a chance to avoid it (and means the spear hits far harder than the human's muscles alone could manage).

Animals are quite intelligent enough to avoid obvious hazards. That's why setting spears/pikes against cavalry charges worked; horses didn't want to run onto sharp points.

15 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Two things.

First, we have already gone over how that rate of decay can't possibly be as bad as Brandon's example, otherwise most of the displays we have seen in the books would be impossible.

Secondly, Brandon clearly flubbed up his math on this. He's clearly using a compression of halving things, and basic mathematics dictate that compressing dictates a doubling for every halving of time. And he prefaced his example with 'in mathematical terms' so just because his flub happened doesn't mean the numbers he used should be taken as gospel on this, he was trying to get the point of Investiture loss across.

I don't think the numbers are that solid, but Feruchemists do store for ages for very brief bursts of power. I think high loss rates are pretty reasonable with what we've seen, personally.

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

I could conceivably see a skilled martial hitting someone moving 2x speed. I could even believe a skilled Radiant with Stormlight reflexes and Shardplate having chances (bad chances but chances nonetheless) to hit someone going 4x speed, but a hitting Steel Feruchemist going even faster is down right unlikely. Add F-Zinc for high speed thought and A-Pewter for inhuman grace and dexterity and a Radiant would have to be ridiculously lucky to hit a Fullborn.

Ok, that I can see.

I was complaining about the idea that x2-x3 speed advantage with a touch-of-hand reach would automatically be enough to outweigh the advantage of a Shardblade with 6' reach (or more, since Syl can morph from Blade to spear form, etc.) - assuming the precision/grace/speed advantages of Stormlight and possibly living Plate cancel out those advantages of a-Pewter.

Once you start talking about higher speed factors and possibly f-Zinc to help too (I'm still not sure exactly how much the overlap is, but Sazed uses them together in WoA when fighting Marsh so there does seem to be some advantage in having both, at least when projectiles are involved in the fight), then yeah... *if* both combatants are on the ground.

F-steel even at x30 isn't an automatic win unless they start extremely close together (so the Windrunner can't get airborne first) - once it becomes an aerial fight f-steel doesn't do much. It shouldn't accelerate motion in the air for the same reason it doesn't accelerate falling.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

12 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think that's the right way to compare. 0.1 second (about maximum) vs 0.3 seconds (slower than average) is an x3 factor even though it's only "fractions of a second". And if the slower than average person with no enhancement is at 0.3 seconds, there's no way to get whole seconds of advantage - even if f-Steel gives you a reaction time of 0.02 seconds instead.

The weapon was actually my point, reach advantage - thus the comparison to Shardblade vs Chromium Leeching touch.

Big cats aren't sapient, but they are certainly smart enough to know that being stabbed is bad! But they have momentum. That's why spears were so effective against big animals, momentum doesn't necessarily give them a chance to avoid it (and means the spear hits far harder than the human's muscles alone could manage).

Animals are quite intelligent enough to avoid obvious hazards. That's why setting spears/pikes against cavalry charges worked; horses didn't want to run onto sharp points.

I don't think the numbers are that solid, but Feruchemists do store for ages for very brief bursts of power. I think high loss rates are pretty reasonable with what we've seen, personally.

Ok, that I can see.

I was complaining about the idea that x2-x3 speed advantage with a touch-of-hand reach would automatically be enough to outweigh the advantage of a Shardblade with 6' reach (or more, since Syl can morph from Blade to spear form, etc.) - assuming the precision/grace/speed advantages of Stormlight and possibly living Plate cancel out those advantages of a-Pewter.

Once you start talking about higher speed factors and possibly f-Zinc to help too (I'm still not sure exactly how much the overlap is, but Sazed uses them together in WoA when fighting Marsh so there does seem to be some advantage in having both, at least when projectiles are involved in the fight), then yeah... *if* both combatants are on the ground.

F-steel even at x30 isn't an automatic win unless they start extremely close together (so the Windrunner can't get airborne first) - once it becomes an aerial fight f-steel doesn't do much. It shouldn't accelerate motion in the air for the same reason it doesn't accelerate falling.

It is hard to understand and fathom the advantage of time dilation and speed.  Instead of thinking of it as "I move 8x faster than my enemy" think of it as "the world and everything in it moves 8x slower than me".  

One of my favorite scenes of all time is Bruce Lee vs O'Hara.  That is the advantage speed gives in real time and at the peak of human capabilities.  Now that backhand can weigh a few tons and move even faster as well as be fueled by more strength.  

I think steel became so OP when I stopped thinking about it as "this dude runs fast" and instead started thinking about it as everything else in the world is moving through mud while this dude is moving through air.  

Either way zinc plus tin are going to allow the fullborn the closest thing to atium without actually granting atium out there.  

[StanLemon]

8 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think steel became so OP when I stopped thinking about it as "this dude runs fast" and instead started thinking about it as everything else in the world is moving through mud while this dude is moving through air.

Truly this, this is what makes F-Steelbthe single best combat power in the Cosmere. Makes them nigh untouchable in a fight and can hit several times in quick succession. A Fullborn is even worse because they will have far greater amounts of speed than any normal Feruchemist and will have A-Pewter, F-Pewter, and F-Iron to make each of their blows hit like a train. Imagine being hit by a car ten times in half a second

Edited March 14, 2023 by StanLemon

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Truly this, this is what makes F-Steelbthe single best combat power in the Cosmere. Makes them nigh untouchable in a fight and can hit several times in quick succession. A Fullborn is even worse because they will have far greater amounts of speed than any normal Feruchemist and will have A-Pewter, F-Pewter, and F-Iron to make each of their blows hit like a train. Imagine being hit by a car ten times in half a second

The weight and power of a car concentrated into a fist sized point of impact.  

[Frustration]

34 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Secondly, Brandon clearly flubbed up his math on this. He's clearly using a compression of halving things, and basic mathematics dictate that compressing dictates a doubling for every halving of time. And he prefaced his example with 'in mathematical terms' so just because his flub happened doesn't mean the numbers he used should be taken as gospel on this, he was trying to get the point of Investiture loss across.

It halves the time for every amount you draw out equal to what you put in, or 1/2 to the power of the compression factor.

34 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Two things.

First, we have already gone over how that rate of decay can't possibly be as bad as Brandon's example, otherwise most of the displays we have seen in the books would be impossible.

Only for Marasi going at sonic speeds, everything else is well within the parameters.

[cometaryorbit]

38 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think steel became so OP when I stopped thinking about it as "this dude runs fast" and instead started thinking about it as everything else in the world is moving through mud while this dude is moving through air. 

I don't think that's generally what we see, though. When Sazed uses it in WoA and HoA it's mostly just moving or fighting at accelerated speed. The only other PoV we get using it is Marasi with the Bands, and that's a special case.

As for non-PoV characters, TLR at the end of TFE and the Inquisitor using it at the beginning of HoA are clearly significantly faster than Mistborn using pewter but not 'too fast to track'. Bleeder in SoS does seem more blur-ish. It might be relevant that the two Era 1 scenes are Vin POV (using pewter) whereas Wax doesn't have that.

25 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Only for Marasi going at sonic speeds, everything else is well within the parameters.

The Bands are a special case in a lot of ways, but I don't think they even necessarily break the rule given that we don't know how they were filled - could have been a very long time spent Compounding or filled directly from some kind of ettmetal trick or the Mists.

Although they might be even more powerful than we think, given Marasi was leaking Mist, and that (TLM)

Spoiler

TenSoon hints there's something extra-special going on with the Bands, though it's not explained.

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[therunner]

47 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It doesn't have to be said, just see it in books. Adoilin fighting in Kholinar during the attack on the palace! OB ch 83. He constantly dodges to avoid being speared. He "stepped back nimbly", "jumped to the side", "leaned over low" etc. The same moves apply to the fight against a Shardbearer without a Shardplate. Dalinar fighting against Szeth on Narak in WoR. You don't take a Shardblade cut, you try to dodge it or block it if you can, like with a regular weapon. It basics of sword fight. And the very thing kaladin did on the training arena, to which Zahel said "everyone need to face a Shardblade like Kaladin".

Training with Zahel, ch 44 WoR.

Alright.
Though I will point out it still requires training to pull off

Quote

Why? They have both Feruchemical and Allomantic ability, compounding is possible, Marsh in era 2 proves it. 

Yeah it is possible, if they learn how to compound which clearly is not as trivial as just 'burn the metalmind'. Per WoBs sometimes Inquisitors learned it, however during Mistborn Era 1 none did. And we don't know how long it took Marsh to learn to compound.

So there is not evidence you can just burn metalmind as if it was ordinary metal. If it is possible then sure, Fullborn can do it. But so far we have no evidence of that.

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You were talking about burned tissue being healed with cold tissue.

No, I was saying this at that point

Quote

Well, gold restores you to your spiritual ideal, filtered through Cognitive.
So it is plausible that the restored flesh would have Brass set temperature.

And I was referencing the burned flesh being restored like this.

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There are still non-believers! We need to convert them! All hail the steel supremacy! 

But yes, we should move on.

Steel supremacy surely is something the Steel ministry would approve off

26 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Truly this, this is what makes F-Steelbthe single best combat power in the Cosmere. Makes them nigh untouchable in a fight and can hit several times in quick succession. A Fullborn is even worse because they will have far greater amounts of speed than any normal Feruchemist and will have A-Pewter, F-Pewter, and F-Iron to make each of their blows hit like a train. Imagine being hit by a car ten times in half a second

F-Iron does not make your punches hit any harder oddly enough (as we see from Wax), so that would not actually help. It would be more for momentum manipulation for the punch.

[StanLemon]

24 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It halves the time for every amount you draw out equal to what you put in, or 1/2 to the power of the compression factor.

Only for Marasi going at sonic speeds, everything else is well within the parameters.

Sazed turning a 6 week journey into a 6 day journey. And he only stored every 5th day for 5 months, using your interpretation, he wouldn't have had enough.

 

5 minutes ago, therunner said:

F-Iron does not make your punches hit any harder oddly enough (as we see from Wax), so that would not actually help. It would be more for momentum manipulation for the punch.

But we do see Sazed hit harder by tapping Iron twice. Iirc Wax never hits anyone while tapping Iron

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think that's generally what we see, though. When Sazed uses it in WoA and HoA it's mostly just moving or fighting at accelerated speed. The only other PoV we get using it is Marasi with the Bands, and that's a special case.

As for non-PoV characters, TLR at the end of TFE and the Inquisitor using it at the beginning of HoA are clearly significantly faster than Mistborn using pewter but not 'too fast to track'. Bleeder in SoS does seem more blur-ish. It might be relevant that the two Era 1 scenes are Vin POV (using pewter) whereas Wax doesn't have that.

The Bands are a special case in a lot of ways, but I don't think they even necessarily break the rule given that we don't know how they were filled - could have been a very long time spent Compounding or filled directly from some kind of ettmetal trick or the Mists.

Although they might be even more powerful than we think, given Marasi was leaking Mist, and that (TLM)

  Reveal hidden contents

TenSoon hints there's something extra-special going on with the Bands, though it's not explained.

 

Bleeder looked right at Wax from the speed bubble and was shocked he was able to stare her down. Moving in a room at blur speed multiple times not just once. Most fights last a few seconds at most and both of these combatants have tools to end it very quickly.  One moves fast enough (or slows the world down slow enough) to not get hit while the other is 100% reliant on plate and stormlight in melee.  Speeds efficiency is also very dependent on the distance to the thing that is moving fast. I am not worried about a car going 80mph a few hundred yards from me.  If it was dancing around me within 6 feet I would unlikely be able to track it.  

7 minutes ago, therunner said:

Alright.
Though I will point out it still requires training to pull off

Yeah it is possible, if they learn how to compound which clearly is not as trivial as just 'burn the metalmind'. Per WoBs sometimes Inquisitors learned it, however during Mistborn Era 1 none did. And we don't know how long it took Marsh to learn to compound.

So there is not evidence you can just burn metalmind as if it was ordinary metal. If it is possible then sure, Fullborn can do it. But so far we have no evidence of that.

No, I was saying this at that point

And I was referencing the burned flesh being restored like this.

Steel supremacy surely is something the Steel ministry would approve off

F-Iron does not make your punches hit any harder oddly enough (as we see from Wax), so that would not actually help. It would be more for momentum manipulation for the punch.

We saw Sazed murdering Koloss by "dropping" his fists onto them. The fullborn with speed and strength to lift those fists is absolutely going to be murdering anything they hit.  Momentum and energy will be off the charts with that kind of weight swinging around at steel speeds.

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Sazed turning a 6 week journey into a 6 day journey. And he only stored every 5th day for 5 months, using your interpretation, he wouldn't have had enough.

 

But we do see Sazed hit harder by tapping Iron twice. Iirc Wax never hits anyone while tapping Iron

This.

35 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It halves the time for every amount you draw out equal to what you put in, or 1/2 to the power of the compression factor.

Only for Marasi going at sonic speeds, everything else is well within the parameters.

This is why @therunner worked out a few different equations (not just him that was quite the marathon I had him and @alder24 running.  If it doubles every time then the bands would have had the age of universes stored up and used in 2 seconds. 

Compounding is far far more dangerous when the calculations are as simple as "it doubles every time" but feruchemy on its own looks a lot weaker.  Compounding with these other equations seems far less imba but in return normal feruchemy becomes a lot more viable as well.

 

[StanLemon]

We should probably move this debate on Feruchemy compression to a new thread as 99% of the time it won't be a factor to a Fullborn. They'll have enough of any trait that they won't run out regardless 

[cometaryorbit]

 Now, if we exclude f-Steel to prevent the thread becoming entirely about the probably long established "it takes a ton of speed to be close to automatic victory, fairly small speed factors aren't that decisive compared to other cosmere powers" vs "even small speed advantages are overwhelming" sides...

Is this Era 2, so the Fullborn has guns? Shardplate is pretty good protection against bullets generally, and presumably against regular Era 1 Mistborn coins -- and a Reverse Lashing could draw them away from the Radiant.

But if they have planned specifically to fight Radiants (or others with healing like Bloodmakers) they might have something with aluminum bullets to get around the Reverse Lashing. But aluminum is terrible at piercing armor.

A Windrunner could try Lashing small rocks or other random objects, but f-Iron reducing weight dramatically would give a Steelpush/Ironpull an impressive amount of acceleration. They wouldn't hit often enough to burn through much f-Gold healing.

In general ... unless the Fullborn has some extra-huge gun to shoot big aluminum projectiles, which seems unlikely/an unfair assumption ... I'd expect the ranged fight to be inconclusive. If both sides want to take the fight to a finish, they'll need to close to use their deadlier attacks.

The Windrunner will obviously use Shardblade. Unless the Fullborn has advance warning and time to Compound up a really Invested metal weapon, they'll probably have to fight with Pewter punches (or Leeching touch) since a Shardblade would chop up other weapons*. That gives the Blade a major reach advantage so they will probably get in more hits than the Fullborn (since a live Blade can morph at will, so it won't have the clumsiness disadvantage of a RL large weapon or a dead Shardblade). So the Fullborn will probably burn through healing faster.

So I'd expect a straight fight to give some advantage to the Windrunner, but it's close enough that skill etc would decide.

*An aluminum sword might be an option with time to prepare, but even alloyed, it's probably not strong enough to really stand up to f-Pewter strength at high levels. Even normal weapons would have trouble.

However, the Fullborn may have some tricks.

- Many Radiants would likely be vulnerable to being stunned or even incapacitated by a duralumin fueled emotional Allomancy blast. Using duralumin is dangerous, since it'll turn off a-pewter until the Fullborn drinks another vial, but this could be effective depending on who the Radiant is. Tapping a ton of F-Duralumin for Connection might make this even more extreme..  it's unclear if those powers would synergize or not.

- We have no idea what, if anything, F-Chromium would do in a fight. Is it atium-like, or is it more Hoid's "I know where I need to be" trick - i.e. non-combat time scale?

- A-Electrum could make a huge difference, but I don't think it's fair to expect a Fullborn to be trained well enough, given that Vin's exceptional Allomantic intuition didn't let her do it.

Bendalloy in combat is more for isolating a duel from a larger fight, so it probably won't help here since it's already a duel.

Edited March 14, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Frustration]

14 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

But we do see Sazed hit harder by tapping Iron twice. Iirc Wax never hits anyone while tapping Iron

That's the strength increase to deal with the weight, not an increase in mass

Spoiler

Questioner

I remember in, I believe it was Hero of the Ages, when Sazed was helping TenSoon escape. When he had fallen on the guard, he said that, by increasing his weight he also increases his density so he doesn't <hurt> himself. Then in The Alloy of Law, it also says that when Wax increases his weight he said that he didn't.

Brandon Sanderson

So, Sazed is just making a mistake. He's mistaking the fact when he increases his weight his musculature changes to be able to handle the new weight and that was what he was talking about. Strength and muscle tone and things like that. I might have just gotten it wrong in the original one [scene], I can't honestly remember, but this is what we kinda decided it needs to be. 

 

Shadows of Self San Jose signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

14 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Sazed turning a 6 week journey into a 6 day journey. And he only stored every 5th day for 5 months, using your interpretation, he wouldn't have had enough.

Even without diminishing returns, he only has five times the amount of time to draw upon if he taps for six days, he doesn't have the stores needed to run at seven times speed for that time.

Additionally it says he occasionally tapped steel so that's not the entire reason he was able to do that, and other things like storing weight, or tapping strength would enable him to move much faster, and for longer amounts of time, without drawing on his stores of speed.

So that doesn't disprove anything.

[therunner]

29 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Sazed turning a 6 week journey into a 6 day journey. And he only stored every 5th day for 5 months, using your interpretation, he wouldn't have had enough.

Sazed specifically that he used that steelmind occasionally when speeding up the travel. Since he is full feruchemist, he possibly used other metals to push himself harder to make haste. Add in making himself lighter and he can move far faster and easier even when not tapping steel. And every 5 days for 5 months is still 31 days of storing.

Just tapping for 3x the speed would last him for 10.3 days (or 165 hours, if he stored every waking moment). And if he walked only 8 hours every day (which is what humans typically do on journey), it would still last for 20.6 days of such march, which has already been shortened into 14 days only. (this does not account for the loss completely though, however at this rate they would be relatively small, and should fit well within the 6 left over days). So we need to account only for 8 days at most, which can be explained by regular walking for longer each day then is usual on such journey.

And since he mentioned he used steelmind occasionally, what he did is clearly doable with the stores he has and the loss that is mentioned in the WoB.

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But we do see Sazed hit harder by tapping Iron twice. Iirc Wax never hits anyone while tapping Iron

Where? I was unable to find it.
And if it is possible why is Wax not using it? It would be quite useful to him in close quarts combat.

23 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

We saw Sazed murdering Koloss by "dropping" his fists onto them. The fullborn with speed and strength to lift those fists is absolutely going to be murdering anything they hit.  Momentum and energy will be off the charts with that kind of weight swinging around at steel speeds.

Dropping being the key word, not enhancing his punches. Also where does that happen? I tried looking it up, but came up empty.
Wax also drops on Miles, but never uses F-Iron to make his punches hit harder, and neither does Sazed as far as I was able to find.

Edit: @cometaryorbit

Quote

Is this Era 2, so the Fullborn has guns? Shardplate is pretty good protection against bullets generally, and presumably against regular Era 1 Mistborn coins -- and a Reverse Lashing could draw them away from the Radiant.

But if they have planned specifically to fight Radiants (or others with healing like Bloodmakers) they might have something with aluminum bullets to get around the Reverse Lashing. But aluminum is terrible at piercing armor.

A Windrunner could try Lashing small rocks or other random objects, but f-Iron reducing weight dramatically would give a Steelpush/Ironpull an impressive amount of acceleration. They wouldn't hit often enough to burn through much f-Gold healing.

In general ... unless the Fullborn has some extra-huge gun to shoot big aluminum projectiles, which seems unlikely/an unfair assumption ... I'd expect the ranged fight to be inconclusive. If both sides want to take the fight to a finish, they'll need to close to use their deadlier attacks.

We have not consider guns, or any other equipment (e.g. fabrials for Windrunner) as it would probably make it much measier.
I would also not expect that either side is specifically prepared to counter the other (i.e. Fullborn does not just happen to have 1 kg of Chromium on hand)

I agree that to finish it, both sides have to get up close.

Quote

The Windrunner will obviously use Shardblade. Unless the Fullborn has advance warning and time to Compound up a really Invested metal weapon, they'll probably have to fight with Pewter punches (or Leeching touch) since a Shardblade would chop up other weapons*. That gives the Blade a major reach advantage so they will probably get in more hits than the Fullborn (since a live Blade can morph at will, so it won't have the clumsiness disadvantage of a RL large weapon or a dead Shardblade). So the Fullborn will probably burn through healing faster.

*An aluminum sword might be an option with time to prepare, but even alloyed, it's probably not strong enough to really stand up to f-Pewter strength at high levels. Even normal weapons would have trouble.

I think no regular (even Invested) weapon that Fullborn can have would withstand the the force of colliding with Shardblade even if the supernatural cutting is negated. Fullborn will be striking with Compounded Strength, and Windrunner will be doing that with Plate strength (which is above 15x increase).

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- Many Radiants would likely be vulnerable to being stunned or even incapacitated by a duralumin fueled emotional Allomancy blast. Using duralumin is dangerous, since it'll turn off a-pewter until the Fullborn drinks another vial, but this could be effective depending on who the Radiant is. Tapping a ton of F-Duralumin for Connection might make this even more extreme.

Plate block Emotional allomancy, so that is a no go for Fullborn.

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- We have no idea what, if anything, F-Chromium would do in a fight. Is it atium-like, or is it more Hoid's "I know where I need to be" trick - i.e. non-combat time scale?

I'd expect that to be the crucial thing, enough F-Chromium could allow Ferring to beat atium burner.
So, that should do a lot.

Quote

Bendalloy in combat is more for isolating a duel from a larger fight, so it probably won't help here since it's already a duel.

As other pointed out, it would give time for Fullborn to heal more efficiently (i.e. without having to compress stores as much) so it would help conserve some strength.
Plus they could reassess tactics, though F-zinc would already allow that.

Edited March 14, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

34 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

- A-Electrum could make a huge difference, but I don't think it's fair to expect a Fullborn to be trained well enough, given that Vin's exceptional Allomantic intuition didn't let her do it.

I agree mostly with you. Here I say Fullborn can use A-electrun with F-zinc and F-chromium and he would get a very similar effect to Atium or better.

34 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Bendalloy in combat is more for isolating a duel from a larger fight, so it probably won't help here since it's already a duel.

It can help to gain time, move faster, dodge, not when already touching Radiant, but using it just before strike to replace F-steel, it would confuse Radiant, and made his move hard to catch by his eye.

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's the strength increase to deal with the weight, not an increase in mass

But he did increased his weight when swinging his hammer at kandra during jailbreak that striked with greater force.

Edited March 14, 2023 by alder24

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

9 minutes ago, therunner said:

Dropping being the key word, not enhancing his punches. Also where does that happen? I tried looking it up, but came up empty.
Wax also drops on Miles, but never uses F-Iron to make his punches hit harder, and neither does Sazed as far as I was able to find.

Honestly I haven't read this book in over a decade but I believe it is in The Well of Ascension chapter 53 when he is helping to hold the line.  

Either way iron has always confused me. I understand that there is no density change and there is no increase in mass itself. I have heard that the effects only effect the outside world but that you have to deal with being too fat and heavy to move around right either. Iron is the biggest culprit for breaking the rules as it is written because it is unbelievably flexible and strong as a power. 

How can a person become so heavy that they stop a group of Koloss from breaking through a gate, or break the floor underneath them, or crumple up a building via a steelpush... but if they hit you with a swung hand while weighing thousands of pounds it is the same as being hit by a normal hand.  If it worked that way the use of iron in a physical swing would actually severely limit your ability as you wont be able to move it as fast as you would if you didn't tap it.  (Perhaps this is why Wax isn't throwing haymakers). However we aren't talking about an iron ferring alone. This is a fullborn who has pewter A and F compounded as well as F steel to aid in throwing these thousand lb fists.  

I think it makes sense that we didn't see super heavy blows being thrown in the other books because they did not have access to strength / speed enhancement as well as iron. It even makes sense that Sazed, a scholar, would have chosen to use them one at a time due to having a finite amount of stores and each metal on their own can offer plenty of combat potential. Against any other opponent I would say burning through one or the other to spread over time would be great.  Against plate and healing of a radiant... you have to go for broke and throw everything at once. There is no such thing as too much overkill but there is such thing as too little. 

Iron just behaves in such a way that it is hard to define. The weight of the user does not cause them physical harm but they do become slower and more encumbered to the point of becoming nearly immobilized. Storing it, likewise, allows the user to feel more agile but actually lowers their total strength. There are no notable effects around them from having higher density or mass but everything is effected by the fact that they weigh way more. I imagine the bones of an enemy being sat upon would break just as quickly as the floor did when Wax broke through. If that is the case then a fist from a person throwing that much more mass into you is going to hurt just as badly. 

The key to using F iron as a weapon is having the strength and speed to move it like one. Enter the fullborn vs any other iron ferring.

[Frustration]

16 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But he did increased his weight when swinging his hammer at kandra during jailbreak that striked with greater force.

Increase of strength there as well.

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Increase of strength there as well.

No. He had only iron and steel. Steel as a bars of his cell, iron as a lock. He used iron from lock to strike with a hammer.

[PinkPlasma]

alr I don't think people are really viewing the fullborn at max potential here. yes a 5th ideal windrunner has ways to deal with certain things a fullborn can do, but not all of the fullborns potential all at once. the fullborn can almost fly, have essentially godlike strength, pewter reflexes, healing that is canonically faster than storm light healing purely based on how furochemical tapping works, they can turn every peice of metal in their area to a deadly missle and can go constantly 5 times the speed of the radiant. there are so many ways that the fullborn can end this fight and win that I don't think I can list them all. they can run straight up to them before they have a chance to react, and then start pulling every peice of metal in the area towards them in a burst of compounded iron and and allomantic iron, both fueled by duralumin. then they could make a speed bubble, turn up their F-pewter, A-pewter and compound speed. then they punch the radiant one or two times to get rid of the plate and get out of the way for the metal to do the rest of the work. and thats STILL not using most of their abilities, and that would be a devastating if not fatal blow to the radiant. their healing is more efficent in every way, the most obvious one being that they have store dedicated specifically to healing that doesn't fade throughout the fight. the radiant runs on one single power source, that drains for each of their powers beyond shards. the fullborn runs on 16 seperate power sources each dedicated to two powers, that does not fade throughout the battle if they aren't using them. unless they're in a barren feild the fullborn will have a multitude of things to move at their disposal, with a far more direct touch than lashings can acheive. a radiant needs to be touching something to lash it. the fullborn doesn't have such restrictions, although they can only move metal, wich makes the radiants attacks slightly more difficult to dodge, but the fullborns other swarm of abilties makes that essentialy immaterial. even the plate is barely a challange for the fullborn, who can break them in two or three hits of compounded strength and speed with pewter. the hardest thing for them to deal with is going to be the shard weapon, which if used correctly can be truely tterrifying. a weopon that changes with each blow is hard to deal with, espically if it has the possibility to kill them in one blow, but if they're smart and know how to use speed bubbles and compounded speed correctly, they can deal with that pretty easily. it wouldn't be a quick fight, and there are situations where i can see the fullborn dying, but they're far more unlikely, and it is far, far more dangerous for the radiant.

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No. He had only iron and steel. Steel as a bars of his cell, iron as a lock. He used iron from lock to strike with a hammer.

Iron increases strength slightly, as the WoB I posted describes.

[therunner]

39 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Honestly I haven't read this book in over a decade but I believe it is in The Well of Ascension chapter 53 when he is helping to hold the line. 

Re-read the chapter, the only instance where Sazed is using F-Iron there is to hold the gate closed (by bracing against it and tapping).
Nowhere does he 'throw' hands using F-iron, when he fights Koloss it is always only with F-pewter.

19 minutes ago, PinkPlasma said:

 the fullborn can almost fly,

Windrunner can actually fly (or far closer then anything Fullborn can pull off), both faster and more nimble then Fullborn.

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have essentially godlike strength,

If the compounded A-pewter strength, yes.
Radiant is no slouch though, being 15-20x as strong as human. And Fullborn is less resistant to damage then Radiant in plate.

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pewter reflexes

Radiant has reflexes enhanced by stormlight, and on top of that additional enhancement from Plate.

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healing that is canonically faster than storm light healing purely based on how furochemical tapping works

It can be faster, but becomes horribly inefficient.
3rd Oath Radiant heals severed spine in a second at most, and does that dozens of times on a single pouch. Higher oaths will be faster, and more efficient as well.

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they can turn every peice of metal in their area to a deadly missle

And Windrunner can turn anything that is not Aluminum into deadly missile. Fullborn is strictly worse off.

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and can go constantly 5 times the speed of the radiant.

That is the winning card for Fullborn, speed trumps most things.
That is why the conclusion is that with F-steel they win, and the discussion is partially moving in the direction of Fullborn without F-steel, since F-steel distorts the discussion so much (notice that most arguments about Fullborn winning easily use F-steel).

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and then start pulling every peice of metal in the area towards them in a burst of compounded iron and and allomantic iron, both fueled by duralumin.

So they pull everything to themselves with incredible strength and speed, but they are not tapping anything else due to Duralumin? That is not going to end well for Fullborn.

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then they could make a speed bubble, turn up their F-pewter, A-pewter and compound speed.

Why would they be compounding in the middle of fight? Compounding to get to useful store sizes takes days or months, they don't have enough bendalloy for that.

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then they punch the radiant one or two times to get rid of the plate and get out of the way for the metal to do the rest of the work.

Without F-steel not so easy to pull off.

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their healing is more efficent in every way, the most obvious one being that they have store dedicated specifically to healing that doesn't fade throughout the fight.

It's not, if anything it is less efficient (due to compression), they just have more Investiture available.

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the fullborn runs on 16 seperate power sources each dedicated to two powers,

32 power sources, metalminds cannot be used to power regular Allomancy.

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that does not fade throughout the battle if they aren't using them.

Plate catches run-off, so Windrunner with Plate is also not fading.

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unless they're in a barren feild the fullborn will have a multitude of things to move at their disposal, with a far more direct touch than lashings can acheive. a radiant needs to be touching something to lash it. the fullborn doesn't have such restrictions, although they can only move metal, wich makes the radiants attacks slightly more difficult to dodge,

Anything Fullborn can push/pull, Windrunner can Reverse Lash.

Edited March 14, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Iron increases strength slightly, as the WoB I posted describes.

Not exactly, but maybe to some degree - F-iron is too tricky. Sazed had to tap pewter, when he was tapping iron, to compensate for his increased weight, when holding gates of Luthadel during siege. WoA ch 53. 

Spoiler

XMikethetrikeX

A question regaurding Feruchemical iron:

So, while Sazed was guarding one of the gates to Luthadel, he tapped weight to compensate, he had to tap pewter as well. Also, when he was climbing a tree, his strength to weght ratio rised, making it easier for him to climb it. Wax doesn't have to do this- when fighting Miles on the train, he's fine without any sort of muscular enhancement, and when he is climbing in the sets base, he notes that he does not make himself lighter because it would simply decrease his weight and strength equally (in contrast to Sazed climbing the tree).

So, is this difference for the same reason people can push/ pull on atium, being the you hadn't fully developed your idea for the cosmere yet? Or is it some other reason?

Brandon Sanderson

Hmm. I think the mistake is more on me writing the Wax scene than in the original. (For him climbing, specifically.) I'll put Peter on this and see if it's a continuity error we want to fix.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Nov. 3, 2018)

Tapping iron does provide the ability to uphold new weight, but it has its limits.

 

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

Plate catches run-off, so Windrunner with Plate is also not fading.

Does it? When was it said?

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Increase of strength there as well.

 

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Iron increases strength slightly, as the WoB I posted describes.

Straight from the coppermind.  

Spoiler

An iron Ferring is known as a Skimmer. Iron is used to store or retrieve (gain) physical mass.^[2] This is accomplished by changing the Skimmer's mass, not by changing the effect of gravity on the Skimmer, i.e. it does not modify weight directly. This change does not affect things that the Skimmer wears, but is great enough that a Skimmer storing mass can typically safely fall any distance, as the Skimmer's surface area is typically sufficient to slow the fall to safe speeds.^[14]

A Skimmer tapping iron can grow proportionally heavier than normal, and although this is not as useful as storing mass in many cases, it has significant martial applications. Specifically, by tapping iron during key moments, Skimmers can add force to their blows, and can use added weight to withstand attacks. It can be used to counter Coinshots or Lurchers, for example. By increasing weight when pushed, one can instead push the Coinshot back. Furthermore, the added mass from tapping an ironmind can wreak havoc with Steelpushes and Ironpulls if the Skimmer is being used as the anchor.^[15]

Tapping iron grants the Skimmer the strength required to remain standing,^[16] including a partial increase in the density of their body,^[17] but this increase in density is limited and does not, for example, affect the Skimmer's vulnerability to penetration.^[16]

The law of conservation of momentum still exists when using iron Feruchemy, so while tapping weight doesn't significantly increase the speed of falling (not considering air resistance), decreasing one's weight to half will double one's speed.^[18][19]

Feruchemical iron interferes with an individual's interaction with the Higgs field.^[20]

Iron doesn't increase density but it effects everything around the user as if there were more mass there.  

Thus your equations for kinetic energy and moment stay the same and as mass of the object goes up the level of damage would as well.  

However, speed effects these things more so it would be acceptable to start as big as your body can move and then store, becoming significantly lighter as you are swinging which would make your already speed enhanced attack more that much faster giving even more of a blow.  

Your heavy weight fighters aren't bowling people over because of their muscle strength.  The mass behind those bombs is what makes them so dangerous.  

Strength is not to be overlooked as the better of options when fighting... but becoming twice or thrice or however much heavier  you can be while your strength can still carry you will make every strike land proportionally harder. A 10lb sledge hits harder than a 20oz hammer... and if that 10lb sledge were concentrated on the same size area of impact as that 20oz hammer it would be magnitudes worse for the thing getting bopped. 

[StanLemon]

57 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's the strength increase to deal with the weight, not an increase in mass

 

Just now, Frustration said:

Iron increases strength slightly, as the WoB I posted describes.

Your mistaken again. That WoB you did is about density and muscle. Brandon has repeatedly said that F-Iron increases mass. That is not up for debate. A Skimmer doesn't need to have an increase in strength to hit harder, the increase in mass does the job for them. More mass means more force. That is elementary physics. And we have seen it happen twice with Sazed. On of those examples can arguably applied to him tapping Pewter too, but the other can't. You are acting as if strength is the only way to increase force of blows which isn't the case. And yes, before you ask, physics does allow an increase of mass without increasing density. There are a whole slew of particle physics issues that have to be handwaved but you don't need to increase density to increase mass.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Sazed specifically that he used that steelmind occasionally when speeding up the travel. Since he is full feruchemist, he possibly used other metals to push himself harder to make haste. Add in making himself lighter and he can move far faster and easier even when not tapping steel. And every 5 days for 5 months is still 31 days of storing.

Just tapping for 3x the speed would last him for 10.3 days (or 165 hours, if he stored every waking moment). And if he walked only 8 hours every day (which is what humans typically do on journey), it would still last for 20.6 days of such march, which has already been shortened into 14 days only. (this does not account for the loss completely though, however at this rate they would be relatively small, and should fit well within the 6 left over days). So we need to account only for 8 days at most, which can be explained by regular walking for longer each day then is usual on such journey.

And since he mentioned he used steelmind occasionally, what he did is clearly doable with the stores he has and the loss that is mentioned in the WoB.

Assuming that he was using 6 weeks as a normal travel time with 8 hours of sleep and and about an hour for eating each day. He would have still had to compress approximately 630 hours of travel time into approximately 144 hours even accounting for his lack of need to sleep. That's something like 4.5x faster average. If he truly was only using them occasionally he would have to have tapped A LOT each time for the average to balance out. Either way, whether he used them occasionally or the majority of the trip, it just isn't enough stores to follow the WoB example. 

[therunner]

18 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Does it? When was it said?

Extrapolation. You cannot leech through plate, nor can Radiant brethe in Stormlight from plate. Plate blocks that Invested abilities that are not keyed to Radiant from passing through.

Additionally, closed plate is airtight.

Combined, Stormlight has nowhere no leave, closed Plate is closed system, kind of like perfect gem.

Edit: @StanLemon

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Your mistaken again. That WoB you did is about density and muscle. Brandon has repeatedly said that F-Iron increases mass. That is not up for debate. A Skimmer doesn't need to have an increase in strength to hit harder, the increase in mass does the job for them. More mass means more force. That is elementary physics.

F-Iron increases mass yes, yet somehow no one ever uses that to make their punches land harder. No one, not Wax not Sazed.
Once Sazed uses it to increase momentum of a swing of hammer (which oddly enough should not change, since per discussion Wax and Khriss have in BoM, momentum is conserved when tapping/storing F-Iron).

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And we have seen it happen twice with Sazed. On of those examples can arguably applied to him tapping Pewter too, but the other can't. You are acting as if strength is the only way to increase force of blows which isn't the case.

Where? Can you please quote the pages or chapters please?

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And yes, before you ask, physics does allow an increase of mass without increasing density. There are a whole slew of particle physics issues that have to be handwaved but you don't need to increase density to increase mass.

No. There is literally nothing in physics that would allow to increase mass without increase density, not IRL.
In Cosmere, some Spiritual realm/Connection shenanigans probably do the heavy lifting.

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If he truly was only using them occasionally he would have to have tapped A LOT each time for the average to balance out. Either way, whether he used them occasionally or the majority of the trip, it just isn't enough stores to follow the WoB example. 

He was using them only occasionally, he himself says so.

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Assuming that he was using 6 weeks as a normal travel time with 8 hours of sleep and and about an hour for eating each day. He would have still had to compress approximately 630 hours of travel time into approximately 144 hours even accounting for his lack of need to sleep. That's something like 4.5x faster average.

How did you get 630 hours for travel time? That would mean that 6 weeks trip would expect Sazed to move for over 17 hours every day. Typically on longer trips you spend less time traveling each day, not more.

6 weeks trip would be ~336 hours of travel time, at the high end, which we want to squeeze to ~80 hours (if Sazed is pushing himself really hard).

All Sazed has to do is store weight + lightly tap Pewter (e.g. just for doubled strength). and Bendalloy (Energy), Electrum (Determination) and Gold (to keep himself healthy) to move faster and for longer times than human could (since he would be half as heavy, twice as strong and in peak physical condition the entire time).

So yeah, the WoB can still makes sense, since he can use his other powers to aid in his travel time as well.
 

Edited March 14, 2023 by therunner