Fullborn V.S. 5th Ideal Windrunners

[Trusk'our Spinner]

2 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think Stormlight healing is not par with Gold compounding, provided you have enough Stormlight.
Gold compounding healing is just supercharged Gold Feruchemy. Stormlight healing suffuses soul seemingly, and routinely repairs cut of soul parts, which is directly stated in WoB to require a lot of stored health.

I ackonwledge it is ambigous, however he is clear that he did not break any bones, he would now it happened to him when holding Stormlight previously. So either he did not break bones at all because of Stormlight, or he healed them quickly enough to not even notice they broke.

Since the sprain still takes moments to heal as you note, then that leads to conclusion that Stormlight also strengthens the body.

Kaladin can breathe in light from spheres, affect Windspren, all prior to bonding Syl.

The budding bond clearly already grants some effects, even prior formal swearing of 1st Oath.

And Dalinar swears 1st and 2nd at most few days afterwards. So he easily could have already had proto-connection at the time.

No, not wrong.
Zahel says that is is hail mary move that is not expected to work out, but if you are about to die you might as well.
And also says that Dalinar probably only pulled it off because Szeth moved too slow.
Again the only two examples are Radiant pulling it off, and proto-Bondsmith who is also the best fighter on the planet. And even then Dalinar was caught off guard that he did it successfully.

Please do, the few fights of HEMA I saw were fast enough that dodging was basically impossible.
Since Shardblades are larger, they move faster which would make dodging even more difficult.

Piercing the body won't be much of a factor, since Reverse lashing can affect body anyway.
From 100 meters probably not, but from ~10-20 meters it could be easily pulled out. And since leeching is touch based, well, the piercing's won't be in Fullborns body by the time he is near Windrunner. (minus F-steel as usual).

Thought so, just wanted to clarify it.

I think he was. Also, Kaladin is all kinds of weird (see the atium-like effect he feels when fighting in the duel in WoR).

Fair, I was just surprised to see that line of argumentation

If Gold healing would take form of replenihing the burned the tissue with new 'cold' tissue, there would be temperature difference and heat flow.
Depends on how tapping Brass and Gold at the same times works.

Ah, the post-Row thread was far more glorious, 73 pages.

 

My word. You weren't kidding 

[therunner Seer]

Just now, Trusk'our said:

My word. You weren't kidding 

A lot of it involved correcting misconceptions about relevant IRL physics, logistics of creating Compounding soldiers via Hemalurgy (and possibly Connections counters to that) and a lot of fabrial stuff.

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

54 minutes ago, therunner said:

The budding bond clearly already grants some effects, even prior formal swearing of 1st Oath.

The Bondsmith spren are different. Stormfather was enraged by the idea of bonding with Dalinar. He didn't want to risk getting killed by broken Oaths. Whatever they had, it wasn't a effects giving Radiant bond.

54 minutes ago, therunner said:

Please do, the few fights of HEMA I saw were fast enough that dodging was basically impossible.
Since Shardblades are larger, they move faster which would make dodging even more difficult.

But blades are also larger so they are further apart. For now, I'm to lazy right now to search for more:

Spoiler

Or here is another, full and cool video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z19hR04Ckb8

0:30, 1:20, 1:38, 1:52 - enough?

 

54 minutes ago, therunner said:

Piercing the body won't be much of a factor, since Reverse lashing can affect body anyway.
From 100 meters probably not, but from ~10-20 meters it could be easily pulled out. And since leeching is touch based, well, the piercing's won't be in Fullborns body by the time he is near Windrunner. (minus F-steel as usual).

Then invest those piercings and make them into chromiumminds. Because intent is very important, he can still burn them as regular metals (Inquisitors weren't able to figure out compounding).

54 minutes ago, therunner said:

If Gold healing would take form of replenihing the burned the tissue with new 'cold' tissue, there would be temperature difference and heat flow.
Depends on how tapping Brass and Gold at the same times works.

I doubt it would work like this, because then gold healing would replace muscle gained from tapping pewter into normal sized. And even if tapping brass would just heat up that tissue to correct temperature immediately so no burns. It just doesn't make sense for gold to replace your hot tissue with cold. There is nothing wrong with you.

54 minutes ago, therunner said:

Ah, the post-Row thread was far more glorious, 73 pages.

Oh wow. Good thing I wasn't on the Shard back then, I would add like 10 pages more  

[cometaryorbit Compounder]

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

Fullborn isn't stupid, he won't be running around in a circle waiting for a Windrunner to go down, he has f-zinc, and can calculate in his head what Radiant is doing and predict his next moves. It would be very easy for a Fullborn to realize that Radiant wants him to drain his attribute, and then he just wouldn't commit.

Possible, but keep in mind that once his head is smashed, Radiant can't do anything, so Fullborn needs to just keep smashing his head, rip off his spine, his heart and wait for him to die.

Yes, but leeching with duralumin would be far quicker.

True, duralumin leeching would probably be faster, but it might not really solve the underlying issue - duralumin doesn't give you more Investiture from your metal, just the same amount faster. Depending on the relative Investiture of a small metalmind vs a Radiant's full stock of Stormlight, they'd likely just run out of chromium (if they risk running out of chromium before burning Invested metalmind piercings, which are probably pretty small metalminds like earrings...)

I'm sure it *could* work, if the Allomancer prepared ahead of time - metal flakes in a vial are a very small mass of metal, if they ate a number of large beads they'd probably have like 100x normal. But they'd likely have to prepare specifically against off world foes - normal Leecher vials would probably not be enough.

 

17 hours ago, Frustration said:

Barely, the only difference is how the investiture manifests.

Baseball players routinely react to objects moving at 90-100 mph, without training humans can't maintain 10 mph. The fastest recorded running speed by a human is around 27 mph, and that's only for short distances, not something that could be maintained for more than a few seconds 

Five times is nowhere near enough, even ten wouldn't be enough we're talking 20-30 times base speeds before they start becoming dangerous. Achievable, sure, but that's not going to be easy to maintain.

Yeah, I think people overestimate the value of speed alone. Cheetahs aren't invincible.

Now, I do think 5-10x speed would be a huge advantage - but not necessarily an insurmountable one. OTOH a Fullborn is probably also burning a-pewter which not only increases speed but grace/dexterity/precision, canceling out the Stormlight grace/perfection enhancement the Radiant gets. I think a Windrunner would do fine against a pure Steel Feruchemist moving at, say, cheetah speeds - with similar tactics as Kaladin used against Lezian's teleports - but a-pewter gives a lot of subtle but collectively very important advantages.

16 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think the speed just depends on where it starts and when it is used.  There is a difference between tapping a bunch to close the gap and tapping a bunch for the melee combat.  

I think moving 2x faster than the radiant in close is going to be more than enough to dance around the shardblade and land your shots.  You only need to play at supersonic speeds if you are trying to close a large gap quickly.

Just imagine a boxing match where one guy was able to move twice as fast as his opponent... and think at normal speed for how fast he is moving... and now he can ramp up zinc as well as tap other feruchemical powers.  

Steel isn't just good for blitzing your opponent.  It is bullet time at your fingertips. When you tap you don't just move super fast... everything else starts moving super slow.  

Steel is great for closing gaps. Its even better for just not getting hit.  You want to nullify the shardblade advantage?  Slow down your enemy and the whole world around you so much that you are Tobey Maguire fighting flash.  Step under and around the radiant.  Tap a ton of strength / weight / heat and flare all of your pewter (heck at this rate just duralumin burn ou really wouldn't have to go that much quicker than 200-300% faster than normal to duck under them.  Kaladin took on a shardbearer before he even knew about Syl. Shardplate and stormlight are awesome but they won't hold a candle to a pewter enhanced human with even 200% normal speed via steel.  

OTOH, this isn't enough to make the difference imo. Pewter and stormlight enhancements cancel out, and I don't think an x2 speed gap is enough to remove the advantage of flight and a Shardblade.

Im not sure it's fair to assume that the Fullborn is specifically trained against Shardblades and knows to last-clap, which seems kind of unfair. x2 speed isn't nearly enough to make that a safe move anyway (I mean, how large is the natural variation in speed among humans? Surely more than a factor of 2. I know I couldn't run half as fast as an Olympic record.)

And it's really only reaction time and agility on the ground, not *speed* per se, that f-steel would give an advantage to. Windrunners with enough Stormlight have demonstrated ~390mph flight, and at 5th ideal their limit is likely far higher (probably based on distance they have to accelerate, actually).

I think f-steel isn't going to help with Iron/Steel flight, for the same reason it doesn't make someone fall faster or slower, so the Windrunner actually has the mobility advantage in the air.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yeah, but a baseball is coming in a straight, predictable line, directly ahead of a player with a bat. So you can train to react to it. I can't react to it, I'm not trained. Can you react to a car going 200 km/h in a short distance and be fast enough to avoid it? I doubt it. It would be a serious challenge for a Windrunner to keep up with it.

Windrunners could easily keep up with a car going 200 km/h (their peak demonstrated speed when flying with the highstorm is ~390 mph, which is about 625 km/h).

I think reaction times for activating Invested powers are very fast (Mistborn are regularly reacting to coins flying faster than arrows, likely much faster) so pouring on a bunch of Lashings to get out of the way of a car should be well within their capability.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I believe that the durability also ramps up when using duralumin for pewter as well.  When Vin pops a guys head with a headbutt her head did not also suffer trauma.  I believe that duralumin burning pewter doesn't just give a massive jolt of strength but also compresses all of the durability that person would have had and gives a huge jump in that as well.

Yeah, duralumin pewter would boost durability too, but using duralumin is dangerous in a fight since you need to replenish all Allomantic metals afterward. Its not as bad for a Fullborn (since f-Gold means they're not going to be wounded) but running out of pewter during a fight is still a shock and pretty undesirable.

54 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

It might get better, but it seems unlikely to get to Gold Compounding levels. Maybe a 5th Ideal Radiant with Progression but not any others.

I would guess Tension could increase durability if any Surge can.

A 3rd ideal Radiant with Progression (Renarin in OB) is probably as good as Miles. A thunderclast stomp is pretty major - l'd estimate they probably weigh something like 30 tons (they're vaguely humanoid and about 30' tall, so by the square cube law about 125 times the volume of a 6' tall human, and stone is usually something like 2.5x denser ... plus they're probably more heavily built proportionally than humans, so might be more like 40-50 tons).

I agree Tension could probably increase durability of the body like Pewter Allomancy does (might be why Taln is called Stonesinew).

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

5 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Windrunners could easily keep up with a car going 200 km/h (their peak demonstrated speed when flying with the highstorm is ~390 mph, which is about 625 km/h).

I wasn't talking about just speed, but keeping up mentally with someone moving and thinking at those speeds. Reacting to a hand moving 200 km/h right in front of you would be impossible for a Windrunner.

7 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think reaction times for activating Invested powers are very fast (Mistborn are regularly reacting to coins flying faster than arrows, likely much faster) so pouring on a bunch of Lashings to get out of the way of a car should be well within their capability.

Depending on the distance between them. The closer Fullborn is, the less possible it becomes.

 

[Frustration Stormfather]

8 hours ago, therunner said:

But breathes clearly don't change the nature of burning metal (you don't get e.g. B-steel), so they work differently than when metal is Invested via Feruchemy.
Similarly, Forged metal also acts only like the metal it is forged to be (unless the seal breaks).
So I don't think the analogy works, as clearly Feruchemy interacts differently with allomancy than other ways of Investing metal.

But the investiture isn't destroyed, which us the main point, why would the feruchemical stores be destroyed?

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

No the difference is that in case of Breaths, you burn just a metal, without touching Breaths, in case of metalmind you use attributes stored in it to be a filter for investiture coming from Preservation. Are you denying that investiture comes from Preservation when we have WoBs and books telling us otherwise?

Yeah, but a baseball is coming in a straight, predictable line, directly ahead of a player with a bat. So you can train to react to it. I can't react to it, I'm not trained. Can you react to a car going 200 km/h in a short distance and be fast enough to avoid it? I doubt it. It would be a serious challenge for a Windrunner to keep up with it. Not to mention avoid a fist going 5x-10x as fast as it should just in front of your face. There is just no way.

 

But he did fight Kal. Go and reread WoK ch 47.

The new investiture comes from preservation, but the investiture originally in the metal come from the feruchemist

 

I probably could, especially with magical enhancements.

 

He really didn't, he made a couple of swings at him, but Helaran never really tried to kill him, at least not anymore than TRL did against Vin

3 hours ago, StanLemon said:

This is demonstratably wrong. In boxing as previously mentioned and martial arts matches, unless there is a decently large difference in weight and strength (something Compounding can more than make up for) the faster person almost always has the advantage. And that's two people who would only have a relatively small difference in speed. Even 2x faster would be well above even the difference between the fastest real life combatant and slowest. 

And a guy with a weapon is always at an advantage against a martial artist. Not almost always, always.

2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

It's definitely not on the level of Gold Compounding as there are plentiful examples of Radiants needing time to heal that Miles just never needs

Miles is a savant, he cannot be used as a baseline.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Dalinar is not. He didn't swear any Ideal. He only had visions from Stormfather, which aren't part of hum being a Bondsmith (SF sent them to few other people before sending them to Dalinar).

Dalinar is, in fact when he swears the second ideal on top of Urithiru and draws in stormlight he outright says that he has held stormlight before.

[StanLemon Worldbringer]

Just now, Frustration said:

And a guy with a weapon is always at an advantage against a martial artist. Not almost always, always.

But there is little speed difference in real life fights, I wouldn't be concerned by someone with a sword moving at half speed or slower and I don't even have the that great of reflexes.

[Frustration Stormfather]

4 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

But there is little speed difference in real life fights, I wouldn't be concerned by someone with a sword moving at half speed or slower and I don't even have the that great of reflexes.

The tip of a rotating object moves faster than the base. Baseball batters have between 100-150 milliseconds to swing in order to hit but they can still reliably do it, and they don't even have magically boosted speed, and reflexes.

[therunner Seer]

33 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The Bondsmith spren are different. Stormfather was enraged by the idea of bonding with Dalinar. He didn't want to risk getting killed by broken Oaths. Whatever they had, it wasn't a effects giving Radiant bond.

Well what Kaladin had also was not yet a Radiant bond, but he still demonstrated various effects.

So Stormfather might have been trying to dissuade Dalinar from bonding him fully in Nahel bond, even though more in-depth Connection was already present.

@Frustration points out that Dalinar claims he held Stormlight before after swearing Oaths, so he must have had proto-bond already when performing last clap.

Quote

But blades are also larger so they are further apart. For now, I'm to lazy right now to search for more:

  Reveal hidden contents

Or here is another, full and cool video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z19hR04Ckb8

0:30, 1:20, 1:38, 1:52 - enough?

That would be if you duel someone, if you fight someone with Shardblade and you don't have one of your own, that would look quite different.

Quote

Then invest those piercings and make them into chromiumminds. Because intent is very important, he can still burn them as regular metals (Inquisitors weren't able to figure out compounding).

I don't think that would be possible.
I thought that burning a metalmind requires a choice, but Miles does not seem to be doing that (at least in what I had a chance to check). So possibly Inquisitors simply were not able to burn metalminds because their Intent was to burn them like regular metal, not to withdraw Feruchemical charge.

Quote

I doubt it would work like this, because then gold healing would replace muscle gained from tapping pewter into normal sized. And even if tapping brass would just heat up that tissue to correct temperature immediately so no burns. It just doesn't make sense for gold to replace your hot tissue with cold. There is nothing wrong with you.

Well, gold restores you to your spiritual ideal, filtered through Cognitive.
So it is plausible that the restored flesh would have Brass set temperature.

EDIT: @Frustration sorry overlooked your message

Quote

But the investiture isn't destroyed, which us the main point, why would the feruchemical stores be destroyed?

It would not be destroyed but used up in the allomantic burning, like metal is being burned.
In regular metal, it is just the metalic structure that is the key to Investiture, and that key is being consumed.
In feruchemically charged metal, it is the Feruchemical charge + metal that acts as key, so it stands to reason that the charge will also get consumed, as in regular allomancy.

With Breaths, they get released, since the metal that held them is no longer there, but the Breaths also don't do anything allomantically.

Edited March 14 by therunner

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

But the investiture isn't destroyed, which us the main point, why would the feruchemical stores be destroyed?

The new investiture comes from preservation, but the investiture originally in the metal come from the feruchemist

It isn't destroyed. That investiture from metalminds is used to imprint on new investiture coming from Preservation.

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He really didn't, he made a couple of swings at him, but Helaran never really tried to kill him, at least not anymore than TRL did against Vin

Really, didn't fight? Didn't try to kill him?

Spoiler

The Shardbearer turned on him, holding his Blade in a twohanded grip. Kaladin dashed past, just out of range of that incredible sword. Amaram had finally pulled himself free, and he was crawling away, one leg dragging behind him—multiple fractures, from the twist of it.
Kaladin skidded to a stop, spinning, regarding the Shardbearer. This creature wasn’t a god. It was everything the most petty of lighteyes represented. The ability to kill people like Kaladin with impunity.
Every suit of armor had a chink. Every man had a flaw. Kaladin thought he saw the man’s eyes through the helm’s slit. That slit was just big enough for a dagger, but the throw would have to be perfect. He’d have to be close. Deadly close.
Kaladin charged forward again. The Shardbearer swung his Blade out in the same wide sweep he’d used to kill so many of Kaladin’s men. Kaladin threw himself downward, skidding on his knees and bending backward. The Shardblade ashed above him, shearing the top of his spear free. The tip ipped up into the air, tumbling end over end.
Kaladin strained, hurling himself back onto his feet. He whipped his hand up, inging his knife at the eyes watching from behind impervious armor. The dagger hit the faceplate just slightly o from the right angle, bouncing against the sides of the slit and ricocheting out.
The Shardbearer cursed, swinging his huge Blade back at Kaladin.
Kaladin landed on his feet, momentum still propelling him forward. Something ashed in the air beside him, falling toward the ground.
The spearhead.
Kaladin bellowed in deance, spinning, snatching the spearhead from the air. It had been falling tip-down, and he caught it by the four inches of haft that remained, gripping it with his thumb on the stump, the sharp point extending down beneath his hand. The Shardbearer brought his weapon around as Kaladin skidded to a stop and flung his arm to the side, slamming the spearhead right in the Shardbearer’s visor slit.
All fell still.

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And a guy with a weapon is always at an advantage against a martial artist. Not almost always, always.

Martial arts includes weapons. And a Fullborn is a weapon himself.

 

8 minutes ago, therunner said:

Well what Kaladin had also was not yet a Radiant bond, but he still demonstrated various effects.

So Stormfather might have been trying to dissuade Dalinar from bonding him fully in Nahel bond, even though more in-depth Connection was already present.

@Frustration points out that Dalinar claims he held Stormlight before after swearing Oaths, so he must have had proto-bond already when performing last clap.

Fair, there was a connection, he used Stormlight before, but did he use it during his fights? Only then it could count. And it's not just about the last clap, it's about dodging a blade which is a standard practice when fighting a Shardbearer.

7 minutes ago, therunner said:

That would be if you duel someone, if you fight someone with Shardblade and you don't have one of your own, that would look quite different.

Yeah, it would. like every fight against a Shardbearer. Kaladin and his non-invested people face a Shard on the arena and dodge it. It's possible. There is in book evidence of this.

6 minutes ago, therunner said:

I don't think that would be possible.
I thought that burning a metalmind requires a choice, but Miles does not seem to be doing that (at least in what I had a chance to check). So possibly Inquisitors simply were not able to burn metalminds because their Intent was to burn them like regular metal, not to withdraw Feruchemical charge.

So it's not possible but Inquisitors did it just like I said? By wanting to burn it like regular metal to gain allomantic charge?

6 minutes ago, therunner said:

Well, gold restores you to your spiritual ideal, filtered through Cognitive.
So it is plausible that the restored flesh would have Brass set temperature.

So if the healed flesh would have brass temperature, then why would gold heal it when your body recognises that temperature as a correct one?

[StanLemon Worldbringer]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The tip of a rotating object moves faster than the base. Baseball batters have between 100-150 milliseconds to swing in order to hit but they can still reliably do it, and they don't even have magically boosted speed, and reflexes.

You keep trying to dismiss how utterly broken speed is. Few if anyone agrees with you for pretty obvious reasons. I suggest you watch a sword fight video, then watch it at half speed, then at quarter speed, then at eighth speed. Eighth speed is only compressing speed three times and those sword duelists will be moving sluggishly

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine Silent Gatherer]

36 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The Bondsmith spren are different. Stormfather was enraged by the idea of bonding with Dalinar. He didn't want to risk getting killed by broken Oaths. Whatever they had, it wasn't a effects giving Radiant bond.

But blades are also larger so they are further apart. For now, I'm to lazy right now to search for more:

  Hide contents

Or here is another, full and cool video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z19hR04Ckb8

0:30, 1:20, 1:38, 1:52 - enough?

 

Then invest those piercings and make them into chromiumminds. Because intent is very important, he can still burn them as regular metals (Inquisitors weren't able to figure out compounding).

I doubt it would work like this, because then gold healing would replace muscle gained from tapping pewter into normal sized. And even if tapping brass would just heat up that tissue to correct temperature immediately so no burns. It just doesn't make sense for gold to replace your hot tissue with cold. There is nothing wrong with you.

Oh wow. Good thing I wasn't on the Shard back then, I would add like 10 pages more  

Good point about your body being protected from the metalminds.  So you could easily ramp up near 1000 degrees and just bake the radiant inside of the armor with your hand thrust into their back.  

Combine that with zinc and tin to magnify your ability to respond to the smallest of telegraphing muscle movements and you could easily dance behind the radiants every move with minimal steel usage.  

In the case of fencing... HEMA fencing doesn't reward suicide the way collegiate fencing does.  And with gold compounding you could simply accept and heal through most cuts (I would argue all cuts) even from a shardblade.  Go-ahead and let them cut off an arm while you gain their back... it will be healed as soon as the blade passes fully through it anyways.  

24 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He really didn't, he made a couple of swings at him, but Helaran never really tried to kill him, at least not anymore than TRL did against Vin

TLR did nothing against vin except push and pull the metals in her stomach as a flex right?  I haven't read it in a long time.  I know Vins fight against TLR was him playing with food for a few paragraphs and then a shard directly intervening allowing her to yoink his bracers.  

Not the same feelings at all that I got from the Kaladin vs Helaran fight.  That was like a 5 minute choreographed dance they did. Kaladin was throwing knives, breaking spears, ducking multiple blows that cut down his team members surrounding him. It was a fight and everyone who witnessed it was shocked by it. 

27 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And a guy with a weapon is always at an advantage against a martial artist. Not almost always, always.

 

24 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

But there is little speed difference in real life fights, I wouldn't be concerned by someone with a sword moving at half speed or slower and I don't even have the that great of reflexes.

 

17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The tip of a rotating object moves faster than the base. Baseball batters have between 100-150 milliseconds to swing in order to hit but they can still reliably do it, and they don't even have magically boosted speed, and reflexes.

The thing about steel isn't just that the person moves twice as fast... to their perception the entire world is moving half as fast.  (Wax staring down Bleeder from the bubble). 

The sword is faster.  That is a fact. But percieving it in half speed is insane.

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

You keep trying to dismiss how utterly broken speed is. Few if anyone agrees with you for pretty obvious reasons. I suggest you watch a sword fight video, then watch it at half speed, then at quarter speed, then at eighth speed. Eighth speed is only compressing speed three times and those sword duelists will be moving sluggishly

Straight up saying this made me laugh.  I watch For Honor duels at half speed all the time because it is fun to see the characters entire movement instead of just one bit of it.  

And steel won't limit the frame rate of the world like videos do.  

 

[Trusk'our Spinner]

5 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

You keep trying to dismiss how utterly broken speed is. Few if anyone agrees with you for pretty obvious reasons. I suggest you watch a sword fight video, then watch it at half speed, then at quarter speed, then at eighth speed. Eighth speed is only compressing speed three times and those sword duelists will be moving sluggishly

Alright, just did that.

You're absolutely right (already thought Feruchemical speed was busted), a Steelrunner probably wouldn't fear most swordsmen since they move like molasses.

[Frustration Stormfather]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It isn't destroyed. That investiture from metalminds is used to imprint on new investiture coming from Preservation.

Then why does the amount needed vary so wildly?

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Really, didn't fight? Didn't try to kill him?

  Reveal hidden contents

The Shardbearer turned on him, holding his Blade in a twohanded grip. Kaladin dashed past, just out of range of that incredible sword. Amaram had finally pulled himself free, and he was crawling away, one leg dragging behind him—multiple fractures, from the twist of it.
Kaladin skidded to a stop, spinning, regarding the Shardbearer. This creature wasn’t a god. It was everything the most petty of lighteyes represented. The ability to kill people like Kaladin with impunity.
Every suit of armor had a chink. Every man had a flaw. Kaladin thought he saw the man’s eyes through the helm’s slit. That slit was just big enough for a dagger, but the throw would have to be perfect. He’d have to be close. Deadly close.
Kaladin charged forward again. The Shardbearer swung his Blade out in the same wide sweep he’d used to kill so many of Kaladin’s men. Kaladin threw himself downward, skidding on his knees and bending backward. The Shardblade ashed above him, shearing the top of his spear free. The tip ipped up into the air, tumbling end over end.
Kaladin strained, hurling himself back onto his feet. He whipped his hand up, inging his knife at the eyes watching from behind impervious armor. The dagger hit the faceplate just slightly o from the right angle, bouncing against the sides of the slit and ricocheting out.
The Shardbearer cursed, swinging his huge Blade back at Kaladin.
Kaladin landed on his feet, momentum still propelling him forward. Something ashed in the air beside him, falling toward the ground.
The spearhead.
Kaladin bellowed in deance, spinning, snatching the spearhead from the air. It had been falling tip-down, and he caught it by the four inches of haft that remained, gripping it with his thumb on the stump, the sharp point extending down beneath his hand. The Shardbearer brought his weapon around as Kaladin skidded to a stop and flung his arm to the side, slamming the spearhead right in the Shardbearer’s visor slit.
All fell still.

 

*Ahem*

31 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He really didn't, he made a couple of swings at him, but Helaran never really tried to kill him, at least not anymore than TRL did against Vin

Helaran attacked Kaladin when he came close, but never once went out of his way to fight him.

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Martial arts includes weapons. And a Fullborn is a weapon himself.

Not the kind we are talking about. And Fullborn is not a weapon. You could poetically describe them as such, but that doesn't make them one.

5 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

You keep trying to dismiss how utterly broken speed is. Few if anyone agrees with you for pretty obvious reasons. I suggest you watch a sword fight video, then watch it at half speed, then at quarter speed, then at eighth speed. Eighth speed is only compressing speed three times and those sword duelists will be moving sluggishly

That is not a compression of 3 times, it's 8 times, and probably a bit more than that given that you can't store 100 percent of your speed.

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

4 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Good point about your body being protected from the metalminds.  So you could easily ramp up near 1000 degrees and just bake the radiant inside of the armor with your hand thrust into their back.  

No, that was not my point. Brass melts at 930 degree C.

4 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

In the case of fencing... HEMA fencing doesn't reward suicide the way collegiate fencing does.  And with gold compounding you could simply accept and heal through most cuts (I would argue all cuts) even from a shardblade.  Go-ahead and let them cut off an arm while you gain their back... it will be healed as soon as the blade passes fully through it anyways.  

It's a waste of healing. Pointless unless you can be sure it won't kill you and you will kill Radiant with that move.

Just now, Frustration said:

Then why does the amount needed vary so wildly?

What amount needed for what? We've already try to explain innerworkings of Compounding couple of pages back.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

*Ahem*

39 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He really didn't, he made a couple of swings at him, but Helaran never really tried to kill him, at least not anymore than TRL did against Vin

Helaran attacked Kaladin when he came close, but never once went out of his way to fight him.

How is that the same for you?? He attacked Kaladin "The Shardbearer swung his Blade out in the same wide sweep he’d used to kill so many of Kaladin’s men." They were already close, just ignore the thoughts of Kaladin, as he didn't stand still when he was thinking, he was moving and acting. It was a very dynamic and short fight, both did like 2-4 moves, but it was Kaladin who was aggressive and therefore Helaran reacted.

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not the kind we are talking about. And Fullborn is not a weapon. You could poetically describe them as such, but that doesn't make them one.

When fullborn can punch your head off, he is a weapon.

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That is not a compression of 3 times, it's 8 times, and probably a bit more than that given that you can't store 100 percent of your speed.

1/2 is first compression /2 = 1/4 second compression, /2 = 1/8 third compression. That's 12.5%. 100% -> 50% -> 25% -> 12.5%. 3 times.

[StanLemon Worldbringer]

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That is not a compression of 3 times, it's 8 times, and probably a bit more than that given that you can't store 100 percent of your speed.

One compression doubles your speed. Two compressions doubles it again, making you 4x faster and the world from your perspective 4x slower. Third compression doubles it again to 8x. And that's assuming you are only storing 50% of your speed. So 1 hour of 50% storing leads to 7 and a half minutes of the world being at 1/8th speed before Investiture loss is taken into account. Most fights period don't last that long

Edit: @alder24 to be fair, a martial weapon does have better reach, one of the reasons a spear is actually a better weapon than a sword generally. 

Edited March 14 by StanLemon

[cometaryorbit Compounder]

58 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

But there is little speed difference in real life fights

Is there really? I personally doubt this. People's reaction times are probably far from identical. Certainly there's a huge variation in running speeds.

32 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

You keep trying to dismiss how utterly broken speed is. Few if anyone agrees with you for pretty obvious reasons.

Eh, there's a reason cheetahs don't dominate the landscape, and in fact flee from pretty much every other large predator in their areas. People hunted animals with far greater speed, and far faster reaction times, than humans (like the big cats) far before guns.

I think someone with a Shardblade could hit someone using f-Steel at x5 speed to try to get in a Chromium Leeching touch in the same way people used spears against big cats.

Reach matters. And I don't think even compounded f-Gold will heal so fast that a Shardblade hit wont mess up the attack. Healing within a second or two, sure, but they'll go limp or lose use of the limb momentarily, surely?

Of course, the Fullborn could use a mundane weapon to try to match up reach, but that rules out Leeching and limits how much strength they can use to what the weapon can handle.

Now, something like a couple of Leeching primer-cube "grenades" might be very effective (depending on how much Stormlight you can leech with one), but if we start giving that to the Fullborn, maybe the Radiant should get fabrials...

Edited March 14 by cometaryorbit

[StanLemon Worldbringer]

11 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Is there really? I personally doubt this. People's reaction times are probably far from identical. Certainly there's a huge variation in running speeds.

Relatively speaking it is. People's reaction times are only fractions of a second better. Considering how much only fractions of a second make a difference, imagine how having whole relative seconds better reaction speeds would give an advantage. Running speed doesn't matter too much in a fight, it's all the other speed boosts F-Steel give that makes it so dominating

Quote

Eh, there's a reason cheetahs don't dominate the landscape, and in fact flee from pretty much every other large predator in their areas. People hunted animals with far greater speed, and far faster reaction times, than humans (like the big cats) far before guns.

That's because cheetahs are only fast sprinters, and they have terrible stamina and aren'tany faster than other big cats in any other way. Back to running speed not being the thing that makes F-Steel so broken. 

Quote

I think someone with a Shardblade could hit someone using f-Steel at x5 speed to try to get in a Chromium Leeching touch in the same way people used spears against big cats.

Watch a video of someone swinging a sword at 1/5th speed. You would have to let yourself get hit by the sword if they are swinging that slow. That's what makes F-Steel so broken as you perceive the world moving slowly as well. You're the only person moving at normal speed in a world of slow motion 

Edited March 14 by StanLemon

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

4 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Eh, there's a reason cheetahs don't dominate the landscape, and in fact flee from pretty much every other large predator in their areas.

Because the antelopes can run 80–96 km/h as well, cheetahs are built fully to be fast, skinny and small, and live in small groups, or alone, where Lions move in big pride and are 5x heavier and even they can reach 80 km/h.

Fullborn can be as fast as he wants, as big as he wants, as strong as he wants.

10 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

People hunted animals with far greater speed, and far faster reaction times, than humans (like the big cats) far before guns.

Bow, arrow, spear and a several times bigger brain might have some factor in this. Don't you think?

12 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think someone with a Shardblade could hit someone using f-Steel at x5 speed to try to get in a Chromium Leeching touch in the same way people used spears against big cats.

But a big cat doesn't have a brain big enough, to understand pointy stick hurts. Fullborn can think as fast as he runs, and make corrections in reaction to Radiant's wide strikes. 

[StanLemon Worldbringer]

I could conceivably see a skilled martial hitting someone moving 2x speed. I could even believe a skilled Radiant with Stormlight reflexes and Shardplate having chances (bad chances but chances nonetheless) to hit someone going 4x speed, but a hitting Steel Feruchemist going even faster is down right unlikely. Add F-Zinc for high speed thought and A-Pewter for inhuman grace and dexterity and a Radiant would have to be ridiculously lucky to hit a Fullborn.

Edited March 14 by StanLemon

[therunner Seer]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Fair, there was a connection, he used Stormlight before, but did he use it during his fights? Only then it could count. And it's not just about the last clap, it's about dodging a blade which is a standard practice when fighting a Shardbearer.

We don't know, budding Radiants can use Stormlight without being aware, similar to the way Vin was burning. So we cant really tell.
And even if he was not holding Stormlight, he is still literally the best non-immortal fighter on Roshar.

Where is it stated that dodging shardblade is standard practice?
From what we see, standard practice is

• If you don't have blade or plate: Die
• If you have plate or blade: Take the blow in non-vital section, block

Quote

Yeah, it would. like every fight against a Shardbearer. Kaladin and his non-invested people face a Shard on the arena and dodge it. It's possible. There is in book evidence of this.

What arena? The arena duel? There Kaladin has Stormlight, Adolin has blade and plate, and Renarin has plate too (if I recall right).

Quote

So it's not possible but Inquisitors did it just like I said? By wanting to burn it like regular metal to gain allomantic charge?

No, I would expect Inquisitors were not able to burn metalmind at all.

Quote

So if the healed flesh would have brass temperature, then why would gold heal it when your body recognises that temperature as a correct one?

I was not saying gold would heal it, I was saying the healed flesh would have temperature of brass -> and would promptly burn if the threshold for where Feruchemy can protect from its own effects was breached.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Good point about your body being protected from the metalminds.  So you could easily ramp up near 1000 degrees and just bake the radiant inside of the armor with your hand thrust into their back. 

Partially protected, not completly. There is some point beyond which you can hurt yourself through tapping too much.

Quote

In the case of fencing... HEMA fencing doesn't reward suicide the way collegiate fencing does.  And with gold compounding you could simply accept and heal through most cuts (I would argue all cuts) even from a shardblade.  Go-ahead and let them cut off an arm while you gain their back... it will be healed as soon as the blade passes fully through it anyways.  

Compounded Gold could heal Shardblade wounds sure, but it would take a small amount of time, during which the body part is not usable.
Compounder heals bullets as they pass through, and Shardblade wound does much more damage than that. (based on the fact that healing Shardblade wound would take a lot of attribute stored, and healing a bullet takes few days of health at most).


Also since F-steel once again started dominating the discussion and arguments, could we move to metaphorical Fullborn minus F-steel?
Fullborn with F-steel can easily move far too fast for Radiant. Even if it would not be Mach speed, if they can move at ~150 m/s, they can get to Windrunner and punch the plate repeatedly (single punch taking literal miliseconds at those speeds) with F-pewter before Radiant can do anything.

[Frustration Stormfather]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

When fullborn can punch your head off, he is a weapon.

Is he an object?

No, so he is not a weapon.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

1/2 is first compression /2 = 1/4 second compression, /2 = 1/8 third compression. That's 12.5%. 100% -> 50% -> 25% -> 12.5%. 3 times.

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

One compression doubles your speed. Two compressions doubles it again, making you 4x faster and the world from your perspective 4x slower. Third compression doubles it again to 8x. And that's assuming you are only storing 50% of your speed. So 1 hour of 50% storing leads to 7 and a half minutes of the world being at 1/8th speed before Investiture loss is taken into account. Most fights period don't last that long

That's not how that works. 200% is the first compression, 300% is the second, 400% is the third, at three compressions you are only moving at 4x speed, not 8. And that's assuming you can even store 100% which you can't.
Feruchemical traits don't apply to themselves, if you can run at 10 mph and store 80% and then tap it you can run at 18 mph, tapping an 80% again would only allow you to run at 26 mph, not 32 mph.

Spoiler

Sporkify

This is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

Footnote: This question was asked when fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy had only been seen in Rashek. As such, the term compounding is used purely to reference tapping at a higher rate than can be stored.
Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

As seen in the WoB you have to lose over half of the time you have in order to add the percent you have stored to what you have already drawn out.

Therefore you need 8 times compression(and then some) in order to go at 8 times the speed.

 

So assuming you store 80% of you speed, which is probably the most you can store, you can go at 180% speed without diminishing returns, which you will start to get from here on out, drawing at double the rate you get 260% speed, at three times you get 340% speed, at four times 420% speed(haha it's the funny number).

So on and so forth, however at each time you can hold it for less than half of the time needed assuming you had an hour of 80% speed you would only be able to hold 4.2x speed for under 4 minutes.

At ten times speed(drawing at 11.25 times the amount you put in you would need 100 hours of storage in order to hold that for two and a half minutes.

5 minutes ago, therunner said:

What arena? The arena duel? There Kaladin has Stormlight, Adolin has blade and plate, and Renarin has plate too (if I recall right).

Renarin did not, but they outright said they weren't trying to hurt Renarin, they just wanted him distracted.

Edited March 14 by Frustration

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine Silent Gatherer]

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Is he an object?

No, so he is not a weapon.

That's not how that works. 200% is the first compression, 300% is the second, 400% is the third, at three compressions you are only moving at 4x speed, not 8. And that's assuming you can even store 100% which you can't.
Feruchemical traits don't apply to themselves, if you can run at 10 mph and store 80% and then tap it you can run at 18 mph, tapping an 80% again would only allow you to run at 26 mph, not 32 mph.

  Reveal hidden contents

Sporkify

This is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

Footnote: This question was asked when fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy had only been seen in Rashek. As such, the term compounding is used purely to reference tapping at a higher rate than can be stored.
Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

As seen in the WoB you have to lose over half of the time you have in order to add the percent you have stored to what you have already drawn out.

Therefore you need 8 times compression(and then some) in order to go at 8 times the speed.

 

So assuming you store 80% of you speed, which is probably the most you can store, you can go at 180% speed without diminishing returns, which you will start to get from here on out, drawing at double the rate you get 260% speed, at three times you get 340% speed, at four times 420% speed(haha it's the funny number).

So on and so forth, however at each time you can hold it for less than half of the time needed assuming you had an hour of 80% speed you would only be able to hold 4.2x speed for under 4 minutes.

At ten times speed(drawing at 11.25 times the amount you put in you would need 100 hours of storage in order to hold that for two and a half minutes.

Renarin did not, but they outright said they weren't trying to hurt Renarin, they just wanted him distracted.

Unfortunately this is against a compounder and the storage capacity for steel is such that I imagine moving 4 or even 8x faster than normal for long enough to dispatch a single enemy would not make a dent into their stores.  

25 minutes ago, therunner said:

We don't know, budding Radiants can use Stormlight without being aware, similar to the way Vin was burning. So we cant really tell.
And even if he was not holding Stormlight, he is still literally the best non-immortal fighter on Roshar.

Where is it stated that dodging shardblade is standard practice?
From what we see, standard practice is

• If you don't have blade or plate: Die
• If you have plate or blade: Take the blow in non-vital section, block

What arena? The arena duel? There Kaladin has Stormlight, Adolin has blade and plate, and Renarin has plate too (if I recall right).

No, I would expect Inquisitors were not able to burn metalmind at all.

I was not saying gold would heal it, I was saying the healed flesh would have temperature of brass -> and would promptly burn if the threshold for where Feruchemy can protect from its own effects was breached.

Partially protected, not completly. There is some point beyond which you can hurt yourself through tapping too much.

Compounded Gold could heal Shardblade wounds sure, but it would take a small amount of time, during which the body part is not usable.
Compounder heals bullets as they pass through, and Shardblade wound does much more damage than that. (based on the fact that healing Shardblade wound would take a lot of attribute stored, and healing a bullet takes few days of health at most).


Also since F-steel once again started dominating the discussion and arguments, could we move to metaphorical Fullborn minus F-steel?
Fullborn with F-steel can easily move far too fast for Radiant. Even if it would not be Mach speed, if they can move at ~150 m/s, they can get to Windrunner and punch the plate repeatedly (single punch taking literal miliseconds at those speeds) with F-pewter before Radiant can do anything.

Without F-Steel other things come into play and it is closer but I still think it is the fullborns fight to lose.  

In melee you have Allomantic pewter and Feruchemical iron that you can weave to make some weird moves. 

Conservation of momentum would be your friend for feigning and redirecting blows I think would work better.  Bendalloy could still allow you to be hard to track and fight (depending on how much control you yourself have over the bubble).  Rocket ship style steel and iron pushes/ pulls will be helpful and every reverse lashed metal chunk is a new anchor to use.  

I don't know that zinc would give you "faster reaction times" as much as it would allow you to take in every telegraphed move your opponent makes and work through to the perfect answer in the time it takes you to react.  Less instinct and more calculation.  It would be like having 2 grandmaster chess players in a game but 1 has an hour on the clock and the other has a minute.  The pieces move the same speed but one gets the time to process out the best action every time while the other is relying more on muscle memory and instinct.  

Also Spook compared his savantism while fighting with a blindfold on to atium where he could feel the attacks before he would have ever been able to see them.  As a fullborn you get all of the benefits of tin savantism with none of the drawbacks and you have zinc to take that information and calculate every possible move before the normal person would have seen it. 

The fast twitch muscles might only allow you to react at a specific speed but every single action will be the most efficient and effective action that could be taken in that moment.  

Between pewter and iron I am sure the fullborn will still have the agility and speed to out maneuver the radiant in melee combat.  

[StanLemon Worldbringer]

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's not how that works. 200% is the first compression, 300% is the second, 400% is the third, at three compressions you are only moving at 4x speed, not 8. And that's assuming you can even store 100% which you can't.
Feruchemical traits don't apply to themselves, if you can run at 10 mph and store 80% and then tap it you can run at 18 mph, tapping an 80% again would only allow you to run at 26 mph, not 32 mph.

Two things.

First, we have already gone over how that rate of decay can't possibly be as bad as Brandon's example, otherwise most of the displays we have seen in the books would be impossible.

Secondly, Brandon clearly flubbed up his math on this. He's clearly using a compression of halving things, and basic mathematics dictate that compressing dictates a doubling for every halving of time. And he prefaced his example with 'in mathematical terms' so just because his flub happened doesn't mean the numbers he used should be taken as gospel on this, he was trying to get the point of Investiture loss across.

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

Where is it stated that dodging shardblade is standard practice?

It doesn't have to be said, just see it in books. Adoilin fighting in Kholinar during the attack on the palace! OB ch 83. He constantly dodges to avoid being speared. He "stepped back nimbly", "jumped to the side", "leaned over low" etc. The same moves apply to the fight against a Shardbearer without a Shardplate. Dalinar fighting against Szeth on Narak in WoR. You don't take a Shardblade cut, you try to dodge it or block it if you can, like with a regular weapon. It basics of sword fight. And the very thing kaladin did on the training arena, to which Zahel said "everyone need to face a Shardblade like Kaladin".

29 minutes ago, therunner said:

What arena? The arena duel? There Kaladin has Stormlight, Adolin has blade and plate, and Renarin has plate too (if I recall right).

Training with Zahel, ch 44 WoR.

30 minutes ago, therunner said:

No, I would expect Inquisitors were not able to burn metalmind at all.

Why? They have both Feruchemical and Allomantic ability, compounding is possible, Marsh in era 2 proves it. 

32 minutes ago, therunner said:

I was not saying gold would heal it, I was saying the healed flesh would have temperature of brass -> and would promptly burn if the threshold for where Feruchemy can protect from its own effects was breached.

You were talking about burned tissue being healed with cold tissue.

35 minutes ago, therunner said:

Also since F-steel once again started dominating the discussion and arguments, could we move to metaphorical Fullborn minus F-steel?

There are still non-believers! We need to convert them! All hail the steel supremacy! 

But yes, we should move on.

 

32 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Is he an object?

No, so he is not a weapon.

Ok, I use my superpower - definition of the word weapon: "a thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage". And the word thing: "an object that one need not, cannot, or does not wish to give a specific name to.". And the word object: "a person or thing to which a specified action or feeling is directed."

So yes, Fullborn is a weapon. Let's not argue semantics. Radiant has an advantage by having a Shardblade, this is not disputable.