Hemalurgy and Scadrial's Society

[Chaos]

Okay so much of this page is totally not appropriate, relevant, or useful to have here and will only lead to conflict. Pretty clearly charged topics. I'm going to be removing a lot of posts; I realize for people commenting on multiple things that some matters will be brought down in the crossfire. We REALLY do not need to talk of this real life stuff so extensively like crime statistics and guns. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Chaos

[alder24]

It's for the better. I apologize for being overly engaged and I apologize if someone felt attacked by my comments.

[Frustration]

19 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It's for the better. I apologize for being overly engaged and I apologize if someone felt attacked by my comments.

I would like to make the same apology.

 

Back to the main topic, would anyone have problems with using or studying Hemalurgy on animals?

[alder24]

Just now, Frustration said:

Back to the main topic, would anyone have problems with using or studying Hemalurgy on animals?

Hmm, in-world animal rights activists, but considering the current time period, I doubt anyone would really care. Maybe in Era 3.

23 hours ago, Frustration said:

And you prove that the Hemalurgic spikes is not just an earring, how?

This is also a great point. What methods can be used to determine if a piercing is a spike of just a piece of metal? Some weakly invested spikes can be pushed by Allomacy, so it won't always be a good method, not to mention there is a limited amount of A-iron/A-steel Mistings. Beyond that, or trying it for yourself, there isn't really any way to do it. Trying it on yourself is a problem, not only it forces you to put that metal in the same place it was in person who is suspicious, but also would require you to know what can be there - Like the Bands or Wax's coin couldn't be used as a medallions until they realized what they were, and what powers they were giving. Not every spike has to give Allomancy or Feruchemy, some can grant attributes, and with this still can be problems, as ReLuur's Blessings were pewter, which steals Physical Feruchemical powers, but he doesn't seems to have those, so different metals can be used to acquire powers/attributes outside of hemalurgic table.

[therunner]

I would also like to issue an apology, one for helping derail, and second to those I may have offended.

18 hours ago, Frustration said:

Back to the main topic, would anyone have problems with using or studying Hemalurgy on animals?

Personally I would (ethical reasons), I think most of Scadrial would not, at least not yet.

I would be ok with experimenting with Hemalurgy on possibly non-sentient animals (or at least those with limited pain sensitivity, which admittedly is difficult to judge).
E.g. how would Hemalurgy interact with animals that don't have blood per se, or whose blood is substantially different?
Could you spike microscopic organisms? Could you spike single celled organisms such as bacteria?

Funnily, if spiking bacteria is possible, this would be a nice way to test if viruses are alive or not Try spiking them and see if it works at least a bit.

Quote

And you prove that the Hemalurgic spikes is not just an earring, how?

 

17 hours ago, alder24 said:

This is also a great point. What methods can be used to determine if a piercing is a spike of just a piece of metal? Some weakly invested spikes can be pushed by Allomacy, so it won't always be a good method, not to mention there is a limited amount of A-iron/A-steel Mistings. Beyond that, or trying it for yourself, there isn't really any way to do it. Trying it on yourself is a problem, not only it forces you to put that metal in the same place it was in person who is suspicious, but also would require you to know what can be there - Like the Bands or Wax's coin couldn't be used as a medallions until they realized what they were, and what powers they were giving. Not every spike has to give Allomancy or Feruchemy, some can grant attributes, and with this still can be problems, as ReLuur's Blessings were pewter, which steals Physical Feruchemical powers, but he doesn't seems to have those, so different metals can be used to acquire powers/attributes outside of hemalurgic table.

It would require some way to sense non-kinetic Investiture, which I don't know if there are some.

If Harmony split into Ruin and Preservation, bits of Mists could be used to detect if metal is Hemalurgically charged or not, as they would be repelled.
Currently, I don't know outside of trying to spike someone (ideally Gold compounder) and see if it works, which is a very bad method.

[Trusk'our]

21 hours ago, Frustration said:

Back to the main topic, would anyone have problems with using or studying Hemalurgy on animals?

Me personally, no, I would be okay with testing on animals. But only for a constructive purpose, not for the sake of inflicting pain.

[Tglassy]

When talking about experimenting with Hemalurgy, I'm much less inclined.  You can't help but cause pain, and while we know the soul reverts back to normal after death (as Koloss do), it's still horribly painful and disfiguring.  Really, that area of hemalurgy has the oportunity to do some really horrific things in the Cosmere, particularly because...well...anyone could do it!  If you know how to use a single spike to turn someone into an unthinking mindless dog thing, then you could do it to ANYONE.  That's terrifying.  

So experimentation might need to be highly specialized.  Of course, if the information on Hemalurgy gets you, every mad scientist in the basin will be working on it.  That goes beyond simply stealing powers and giving them to other people.  

[Starganderfish]

There’s three factors that change the equation a bit for me. All from The Lost Metal. Not sure of spoilers for this thread though so:

Spoiler

 

1) “Roughly five percent Invested,” she reported to Entrone. “And as you can see, the subject is still alive. We’ve essentially excised a piece of the soul and stored it in the metal.” … They’d made a spike without killing the woman?”

Hemalurgy can be performed without the death of the subject. It’s still painful, it scars the soul and is kind of creepy but it takes it out of the realm of being murderous.

2) “This woman isn’t Metalborn. We’ve Invested a spike—a tiny bit, granted—using an ordinary person.”

Investiture can be harnessed from non-metalborn and theoretically accrued and attuned to produce a viable spike. Viewed from a certain light, it moves Hemalurgy from a eugenics-like process to something akin to donating a kidney. Unless people in-universe discover that the process causes some irreversible trauma (we pretty much know it wil, but they may not be equipped to realise it) then ordinary people donating a little bit of intangible essence to aid society could become quite acceptable.

But finally and most importantly is the speculation from the Ghostbloods:

3) “If they’re even close to forging Metalborn out of the raw power of souls—if they’ve had tests that resulted in an Allomancer, no matter how fleeting … Marasi, that path could lead to creating spikes using pure Investiture instead of souls.” She tapped her rucksack, indicating the glowing jars inside.

The Ghostbloods, the Ire and the Set have all shown the ability to harness raw investiture (presumably by purifying the Dor) not to mention the potential of Rosharan Stormlight. Creating Hemalurgic spikes without needing ANY fragments of souls, completely changes the game.
 

It massively changes the late game strategy for Scadrial. If they can manage to gather enough raw Investiture, Scadrial gets an essentially unlimited supply of Metalborn. The only thing that could feasibly compete would be if Elantrians can overcome their geographic limitations (which we also see hints of in this book) or if Awakeners can hack Investiture (such as Dor or Stormlight) into Breaths. Rosharan surgebinders need a Spren each so they will rapidly fall behind. 

 

With that in mind, Hemalurgic experimentation is pretty much essential for Scadrial future. 

Edited April 1, 2023 by Starganderfish

[NameIess]

Yeah, if partially charged spikes become widespread, hemalurgy will be in the same boat as

mild Warbreaker spoilers

Spoiler

Breaths on Nalthis.

It damages the soul, but the effects might not be commonly researched for some time.