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Hemalurgy and Scadrial's Society


Trusk'our

Which do you think should be done?  

27 members have voted

  1. 1. How do you think that knowledge of Hemalurgy should be handled?

    • Knowledge of Hemalurgy should be given to Scadrial's public but have laws placed on its use
      9
    • Knowlege of Hemalurgy should remain only with the few who currently know it and die with them
      5
    • Knowlege of Hemalurgy's specifics should be kept within a small circle of trusted people, but general knowledge should be given to Scadrial's public and have laws placed on its use
      13
    • other
      0


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I've actually been wondering about this for a while now, and actually did come up with a post about it long ago, but I think that I may have changed my mind on the concept.

Hemalurgy is a fascinating thing in the Cosmere, and it has lots of potential. But would it really be the best thing to practice openly on Scadrial, or anywhere in the Cosmere?

Hemalurgy can; (1) grant powers to people of your choice, (2) take powers from those of your choice, (3) transform people into different kind of creatures.

Power granting: With this ability, you could give your constables Invested powers, such as Allomantic pewter, Allomantic steel, or Feruchemical gold, making them much better at their jobs. You could also give certain other government officials powers to improve their jobs, such as Feruchemical copper, zinc, or bronze. This should increase their efficiency, which would then improve their society. If people got too selfish or irresponsible with their newfound power, you could remove the spikes and give them to someone else.

However, a better alternative seems to already exist. Malwish Medallion tech also provides Invested powers and does not need to rely on Hemalurgic spiking to do so. It would also be easier to remove a medallion from an abuser, since they need to be recharged. Hemalurgic spikes do not, and they also cause pain to the donor and the recipient. This brings us to out next issue.

Power removal: Using Hemalurgy, you can remove powers from Metalborn who abuse their natural talents and recycle them for something (hypothetically) good. Many outlaws exist in the Roughs who have access to the Metallic Arts, and having the very real threat of having their sticks taken away from them might push them to shape up. 

However, this could end up doing even more bad than it solves. When you introduce motivation to place blame on someone with a natural advantage, one that you might possibly get to have if they lose it, you will undoubtedly see people in positions of power abuse the laws that make it possible to steal other's Investiture.

This doesn't just apply to government officials either. If Hemalurgic spikes were to become monetized rather than simply being a tool for the government, the rich would almost certainly be the ones to benefit, since they have the actual means to grab such powers; you wouldn't be putting power in the hands of the people, you'd likely end up putting even more power in the hands of a handful of privileged nobility.

It's true, you could have people voluntarily give up their powers to trusted individuals or desendants if they were terminally ill, or perhaps if you found a way to non-lethally remove powers, but you'd have to be careful not to abuse such an occurrence.

Transforming people: This is probably the least useful aspects of Hemalurgy, at least as it stands now.

If you've read Shadows of Self... it's hard to forget the Chimera. That is evil. There just isn't a good way to use that application of Hemalurgy.

Now, I could see the analytical insights provided by Hemalurgy's mechanics being used in a beneficial manner, but only if controlled carefully. It would be like CRISPR in the Cosmere, or at least researching Hemalurgy could lead to such knowledge. That is useful, and I think could be worth pursuing.

It would likely require access to the Spiritual Realm to achieve any useful insights in this area though, but such a thing wouldn't be unattainable to those with the resources and knowledge.

My conclusion: after considering all of this, my personal thinking is that knowledge of Hemalurgy should become widespread but should have strict laws placed upon its usage. Then, any secret organizations like the Set cannot use it as effectively since awareness of its existence will be common knowledge, and research into its uses for Spiritweb manipulation could be pursued on a societal level.

I no longer think that powers should be regularly given and taken though, and Scadrial's laws should reflect such; it's just too easy to abuse, and Unsealed Metalminds seem like a better alternative to granting Invested powers to more people anyway.

I think that power donation via Hemalurgy could still be useful in certain individual cases (Wax, Wayne and Marasi could use a power-up by recyling Set agent spikes to better deal with the rest of the Set, for example), but on a societal scale, it isn't something I'd hazard.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Edited by Trusk'our
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I believe that what hemalurgy does should be known "hey people can kill you with spikes to steal powers"  but all specifics should be scrubbed from the record and forgotten.

Medallions an similar technology is better in every possible way, there's no reason to use hemalurgy.

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There are some problems with medallions. We currently don’t know if they can replicate Allomantic abilities, and I suspect that it would be quite hard to make them work for other magic systems. Hemalurgy is easy to do, gives permanent access to the powers, and has practically no limitations on what it can steal. The spreading of medallion tech will make it slightly less valuable, but there will always be those willing to exploit it for power. As such, I think the public should be told general details and strict laws should be put in place on its use, but there should be a specific group that has detailed knowledge, if only so as to better regulate cases where it is used illegally.

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1 minute ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

There are some problems with medallions. We currently don’t know if they can replicate Allomantic abilities, and I suspect that it would be quite hard to make them work for other magic systems. Hemalurgy is easy to do, gives permanent access to the powers, and has practically no limitations on what it can steal. The spreading of medallion tech will make it slightly less valuable, but there will always be those willing to exploit it for power. As such, I think the public should be told general details and strict laws should be put in place on its use, but there should be a specific group that has detailed knowledge, if only so as to better regulate cases where it is used illegally.

The Bands gave allomantic abilities.

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Create some sort of government funded National Hemalurgic Donor Center (NHDC), where professional hemalurgists will have knowledge of how to perform this and experiment to make new advancement, but the public should know only that hemalurgy steals powers, what was said in holy books left by Sazed and that this facility exist.

People can donate their body and powers to this facility, willingly, and with full knowledge of consequences that might come with it. Those powers could be then given by spikes either to the previously specified family members (without any previous criminal record), be used in hemalurgic experiments, or given to a special swat team to increase public safety. Of course the donor should not only get full medical attention for life, but also be paid for giving up their powers, just like with Breaths on Nalthis, if the donor dies, money will be given to his family.

However, to further secure this facility, the government can't have full control, as no mayor should just go there and demand to get powers or gain knowledge. This NHDC should be led by a committee of specialists to some degree associated with the government, or appointed by the government if they have special qualifications, but they should have the right to govern their internal structures in accordance with national laws. Make it just in a way to guarantee that not a single person (e.g. mayor) has any decisive or final word in the NHDC internal decision making process.

 

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

The Bands gave allomantic abilities.

The Bands are not exactly like medallions as nicrosil in Bands gets used up, while in medallions is more like a coppermind (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316/#e11247)

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2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The Bands are not exactly like medallions as nicrosil in Bands gets used up, while in medallions is more like a coppermind (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316/#e11247)

That's true, but that's still a way to give people allomancy.

And Lerasium exists to give it to them permenently, while also increasing the general amount of allomancy in the population.

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7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The Bands gave allomantic abilities.

They also give every ability, which we know is impossible for current medallions. And they may be impossible to replicate without a fullborn. Eventually I’m sure that medallions will almost entirely replace hemalurgy, but that will take a very long time, perhaps not until era 4. Even then, hemalurgy will be useful in combat against invested individuals.

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14 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Create some sort of government funded National Hemalurgic Donor Center (NHDC), where professional hemalurgists will have knowledge of how to perform this and experiment to make new advancement, but the public should know only that hemalurgy steals powers, what was said in holy books left by Sazed and that this facility exist.

People can donate their body and powers to this facility, willingly, and with full knowledge of consequences that might come with it. Those powers could be then given by spikes either to the previously specified family members (without any previous criminal record), be used in hemalurgic experiments, or given to a special swat team to increase public safety. Of course the donor should not only get full medical attention for life, but also be paid for giving up their powers, just like with Breaths on Nalthis, if the donor dies, money will be given to his family.

However, to further secure this facility, the government can't have full control, as no mayor should just go there and demand to get powers or gain knowledge. This NHDC should be led by a committee of specialists to some degree associated with the government, or appointed by the government if they have special qualifications, but they should have the right to govern their internal structures in accordance with national laws. Make it just in a way to guarantee that not a single person (e.g. mayor) has any decisive or final word in the NHDC internal decision making process.

These are some pretty good ideas. Maybe you could start using Hemalurgically granted powers responsibly as a society if they do as you suggest.

24 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

There are some problems with medallions. We currently don’t know if they can replicate Allomantic abilities, and I suspect that it would be quite hard to make them work for other magic systems. Hemalurgy is easy to do, gives permanent access to the powers, and has practically no limitations on what it can steal. The spreading of medallion tech will make it slightly less valuable, but there will always be those willing to exploit it for power. As such, I think the public should be told general details and strict laws should be put in place on its use, but there should be a specific group that has detailed knowledge, if only so as to better regulate cases where it is used illegally.

TLM spoilers.

Spoiler

Yes, it's true that the medallions have problems granting Allomancy, so maybe Hemalurgy is just superior in that regard. Maybe you could use Hemalurgy to create a few Unsealed Metalminds that could use compounding to create more Unsealed Metalminds for others to use.

 

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1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I believe that what hemalurgy does should be known "hey people can kill you with spikes to steal powers"  but all specifics should be scrubbed from the record and forgotten.

Medallions an similar technology is better in every possible way, there's no reason to use hemalurgy.

I agree with the morality issues with hemalurgy, but, since era 3 will only be a few decades after era 2, I find it unlikely the northerners will find out how to make medallions. It's very likely that people in the north want to use hemalurgy in order to gain every possible advantage against the Malwish (perhaps spiking Malwish POWs) I think it's likley that the experiments the Set were performing with hemalurgy will lead to a breakthrough by era 3. If they find out how to safely steel small amounts of investiture with spikes, I could see a patriotic push for people to get spiked in order to arm the soldiers with powers. Medallions are better in many ways and are more ethical but, I don't think the northerners will have access to them aside from the relatively few medallions they already have.

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I'm a big proponent of free information.  I also believe that if there is a big weapon that can do lots of damage, it's safer to give it to everyone than to just a few.  Because if you give it to just a few, then it will be abused and there's nothing anyone else could do to stop it.  If you give it to everyone, then everyone can protect themselves from those who would abuse it.  

So make it public knowledge.  All of it.  Bind points, types of metals, everything.  Then make laws on its use.  Certain crimes would warrant the death penalty, and the penalty is death by Hemalurgy.  If you're a metalborn, great, if not, they can at least take some kind of attribute.  

It might be possible to make a Hemalurgic farm utilizing a Medallion granting Gold Feruchemy, since Gold Feruchemy CAN repair the spirit web Hemalurgy steals.  It is likely NOT a fun process, but if you have a valuable Metalborn ability, you could be paid to undergo the procedure.  Heck, a Metalborn might be able to make a living making one Spike a week.

After a number of years of this, you'd wind up with Hemalurgic Spikes aplenty.  Anyone can have one, if they pay enough.  Everyone would wind up with Metalborn abilities.  Yes, Medallions are strictly better, but even six years after their discovery, we haven't seen any medallions that do anything other than Weight, Connection and Heat.  We assume there are Medallions that do others, but we haven't seen them.  

But Imagine.  You're turning 16, your family is solidly middle class, and instead of going and buying your first car, they take you to the Hemalurgist to pick out your first spike.  What power do you want?  Take your pick!  It'll likely be with you for the rest of your life.  Oh, you like Steel?  Well, we've got the Spike of Bart Slade, the notorious bank robber from ten years ago.  The last person with this spike ran out of steel in mid flight.  It wasn't pretty.  Come on back and I'll install it for you.  It'll only take a second.  Do you want anesthesia?  You don't really need it, but lots of people say the instalation process is...uncomfortable.  

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I’m on board with spreading knowledge of Hemalurgy with accompying laws and not having a small trusted group. There may be some ethical uses of Hemlaurgy, though medallions are way better. But more importantly, I don’t think it’s a good idea to trust any group with sole knowledge of Hemalurgy. Power corrupts and I could easily see a world where they used the monopoly to do horrible things. I’d also say that most uses of unethical Hemalurgy should be considered crimes against humanity. Turning unwilling victims into koloss or some other abomination just screams horror

It also makes me wonder one other thing. Let’s agree that basically any ethical Hemalurgy requires the donor’s consent. How could you prove that in the Scadrial courts system? On top of every real world corrosion, there’s Rioting and Soothing to think about. Did that guy actually sign away his Allomancy or did you Sooth him into it? Already frustrating in regular court cases, but Hemalurgy? Honestly, you could probably make some sort of fan fix about a Hemalurgist who escaped conviction for their experiments and thus provoking public outrage.

Edited by Mistchemist16
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45 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

I’m on board with spreading knowledge of Hemalurgy with accompying laws and not having a small trusted group. There may be some ethical uses of Hemlaurgy, though medallions are way better. But more importantly, I don’t think it’s a good idea to trust any group with sole knowledge of Hemalurgy. Power corrupts and I could easily see a world where they used the monopoly to do horrible things. I’d also say that most uses of unethical Hemalurgy should be considered crimes against humanity. Turning unwilling victims into koloss or some other abomination just screams horror

It also makes me wonder one other thing. Let’s agree that basically any ethical Hemalurgy requires the donor’s consent. How could you prove that in the Scadrial courts system? On top of every real world corrosion, there’s Rioting and Soothing to think about. Did that guy actually sign away his Allomancy or did you Sooth him into it? Already frustrating in regular court cases, but Hemalurgy? Honestly, you could probably make some sort of fan fix about a Hemalurgist who escaped conviction for their experiments and thus provoking public outrage.

As Breeze has constantly stated, Soothing isn't mind control.  You can't make someone do something they wouldn't already be willing to do.  You just make it more likely that they'll do it by removing other conflicting feelings.  The desire to sign away Allomancy must have already been there for it to work out that way.  

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58 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

As Breeze has constantly stated, Soothing isn't mind control.  You can't make someone do something they wouldn't already be willing to do.  You just make it more likely that they'll do it by removing other conflicting feelings.  The desire to sign away Allomancy must have already been there for it to work out that way.  

True, but that could still matter in court. There are plenty of situations where the law would care that you gave them an extra push. If nothing else, it would definitely matter if you had something like a depressed person being manipulated into giving up their ability just before they kill themselves. I don’t believe that having some level of emotion is enough to reach a proper consent in at least some cases and Hemalurgy is something worth noticing.

Edited by Mistchemist16
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11 hours ago, Tglassy said:

I'm a big proponent of free information.  I also believe that if there is a big weapon that can do lots of damage, it's safer to give it to everyone than to just a few.  Because if you give it to just a few, then it will be abused and there's nothing anyone else could do to stop it.  If you give it to everyone, then everyone can protect themselves from those who would abuse it.  

I don't agree, Hemalurgy isn't a gun. It isn't even a bomb. It's something worse. You can't protect yourself with hemalurgy without harming others. And those who want to use it for their own goal will do it, and you can't do anything about it.  Once the knowledge is out, EVERYONE can do it, and the government can't do anything to prevent it. The only thing that is needed is a piece of metal, and this is everywhere. There is no way to control it. You think a drug addict won't spike someone just so he can buy more drugs? Or a sociopath won't do it because it excites him? Or a power hungry man won't do it to gain more power? Or a crime boss to secure his business? Or a school bully? Having severe punishments for killing with Hemalurgy is fine, but it won't prevent this from happening, and it won't control it. Power corrupts, but you don't want a select few working under strict regulations and supervision, instead you want to give that power to everyone, so everyone can be corrupted. 

11 hours ago, Tglassy said:

But Imagine.  You're turning 16, your family is solidly middle class, and instead of going and buying your first car, they take you to the Hemalurgist to pick out your first spike.  What power do you want?  Take your pick!  It'll likely be with you for the rest of your life.  Oh, you like Steel?  Well, we've got the Spike of Bart Slade, the notorious bank robber from ten years ago.  The last person with this spike ran out of steel in mid flight.  It wasn't pretty.  Come on back and I'll install it for you.  It'll only take a second.  Do you want anesthesia?  You don't really need it, but lots of people say the instalation process is...uncomfortable.  

Hemalurgy isn't a car. It's like a hard drug. You are giving your kid permanent soul damage, and irreversible changes to his body, leaving him forever scared and susceptible to mental illness.  It's like giving your kid a line of coke everyday, because it's "fun".

11 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Certain crimes would warrant the death penalty, and the penalty is death by Hemalurgy.

With this I agree.

 

10 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

It also makes me wonder one other thing. Let’s agree that basically any ethical Hemalurgy requires the donor’s consent. How could you prove that in the Scadrial courts system? On top of every real world corrosion, there’s Rioting and Soothing to think about

Documents, multiple witnesses, including family, aluminum hats. That's the easiest part. Emotional Allomancy isn't mind controll.

10 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

I don’t think it’s a good idea to trust any group with sole knowledge of Hemalurgy. Power corrupts and I could easily see a world where they used the monopoly to do horrible things.

So a selected few working under strict regulations and supervision are a problem, but you are not concerned about power corrupting everyone? The only thing they need is a piece of metal. There is no control once the knowledge is out.

 

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Am I the only one concerned that no matter how ethically sourced (which, since it mutilates soul is doubtful), Hemalurgic spikes still mutilate the soul of the recipient?
Which apparently has consequences after death?

You are not the only one.

 

I find this discussion weirdly similar to the discussion about gun possession in the USA vs Europe. The laws preventing gun violence don't stop a few people in the USA from shootings, while in Europe the inability to have a gun prevents those crimes from ever happening in the vast majority of the cases. The difference however is, you can't make your own gun out of a rusty nail.

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3 hours ago, therunner said:

Am I the only one concerned that no matter how ethically sourced (which, since it mutilates soul is doubtful), Hemalurgic spikes still mutilate the soul of the recipient?
Which apparently has consequences after death?

I don't think that the concequenses of being Hemalurgically spiked are that serious for the donor, unless they wanted to become a Cognitive Shadow.

Quote

Firefight release party - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Lady Radagu

Does being the donor of a Hemalurgic spike have any implications for your afterlife? Or how about the recipient?

Brandon Sanderson

That is actually going to depend on-- Okay. Yes it has implications for the afterlife. Yes.

Lady Radagu

Okay so are there a bunch of Scadrian souls wandering the afterlife with holes in their personalities or memory or identity? Or some with extra parts tacked on?

Brandon Sanderson

So it has implications, but they are not exactly ones that you are assuming. So in the cosmere there is "dead" and "mostly dead". Okay? And this has been shown several times so once someone dies there is a period before they transition. Sazed talks about this in Mistborn 3. And so most of the implications are for before transition. Does that make sense? Post-transition you are going to have to ask the philosophers and the theologians who are the ones that talk about that. So there is an afterlife and an after-afterlife. Not as many implications for after-afterlife. Middle? Yes. Okay?

Plus, you could heal back what you lost with Investiture.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I don't agree, Hemalurgy isn't a gun. It isn't even a bomb. It's something worse. You can't protect yourself with hemalurgy without harming others. And those who want to use it for their own goal will do it, and you can't do anything about it.  Once the knowledge is out, EVERYONE can do it, and the government can't do anything to prevent it. The only thing that is needed is a piece of metal, and this is everywhere. There is no way to control it. You think a drug addict won't spike someone just so he can buy more drugs? Or a sociopath won't do it because it excites him? Or a power hungry man won't do it to gain more power? Or a crime boss to secure his business? Or a school bully? Having severe punishments for killing with Hemalurgy is fine, but it won't prevent this from happening, and it won't control it. Power corrupts, but you don't want a select few working under strict regulations and supervision, instead you want to give that power to everyone, so everyone can be corrupted. 

I find this discussion weirdly similar to the discussion about gun possession in the USA vs Europe. The laws preventing gun violence don't stop a few people in the USA from shootings, while in Europe the inability to have a gun prevents those crimes from ever happening in the vast majority of the cases. The difference however is, you can't make your own gun out of a rusty nail.

I don't think that I can agree with this.

Even if you give the option to let everyone have a weapon, say guns, people aren't going to just go out and start shooting other people. Because people are people, and people generally do not want to kill others (Plus, you know, they know that if they do that the law comes after them).

Hemalurgy in most cases is probably more like having a knife than a gun, assuming we're talking about most people wielding it. You can spike a Misting or Ferring and give yourself that power, but that mostly isn't going to change Scadrial's criminal output, I would think; they already have Metalborn outlaws.

Now, you defiantly could have some power-hungry individuals abuse it and gather together dangerous Invested powers, but most likely a group of Metalborn police could be used to counter the rare occurrence of Hemalurgic crime rings.

I do think that intimate knowledge of Hemalurgy spreading could be very bad, but it wouldn't automatically mean the end of Scadrial's society.

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1 minute ago, Trusk'our said:

Even if you give the option to let everyone have a weapon, say guns, people aren't going to just go out and start shooting other people. Because people are people, and people generally do not want to kill others (Plus, you know, they know that if they do that the law comes after them).

Of course not everyone is a sociopath. But there are individuals who would use it. Give them a weapon and they will start killing. But the difference is, this weapon is the knowledge, which after you release it to the public, you can't control it, and you can't use it to defend  yourself.

4 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Hemalurgy in most cases is probably more like having a knife than a gun, assuming we're talking about most people wielding it. You can spike a Misting or Ferring and give yourself that power, but that mostly isn't going to change Scadrial's criminal output, I would think; they already have Metalborn outlaws.

You gain nothing from stabbing somebody with a knife, but from spiking him with a hemalurgy, you gain more power. Imagine every single criminal can become Metalborn because they don't have scruples. How does this knowledge which was gained by the Set was used? to kill people, steal their powers, kidnap more and more people and create hemalurgic monsters. There was no government to control or stop them. Now with hemalurgy as a public knowledge, every criminal organization can do the same. And will have to do it, to stop other organizations from competing with them. 

Ironically it wasn't the government that stopped the Set, it was more thanks to Ghostbloods help, who are a criminal organization.

9 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I do think that intimate knowledge of Hemalurgy spreading could be very bad, but it wouldn't automatically mean the end of Scadrial's society.

I'm not talking about the end. I'm talking about absolute abuse, and the danger it poses. Criminal use of Hemalurgy would become far more common thing. Putting everyone in danger like that is just irresponsible.

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1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

I don't think that the concequenses of being Hemalurgically spiked are that serious for the donor, unless they wanted to become a Cognitive Shadow.

Being a donor is described as resulting in illness, depression, reduced capacity to perceive colors/sounds/etc., to perceive other living beings, if the one doing the spiking does not kill you outright (which has not been shown or confirmed to actually result in usable spikes).
Warbreaker spoilers

Spoiler

Basically like being a drab or worse

 

Quote

Plus, you could heal back what you lost with Investiture.

You could, if you had unkeyed stores prepared by a compounder on hand, or you were compounder yourself, not everyday things.
But it would still result in scar on soul, and you would not be the same.

Quote

Hemalurgy in most cases is probably more like having a knife than a gun, assuming we're talking about most people wielding it. You can spike a Misting or Ferring and give yourself that power, but that mostly isn't going to change Scadrial's criminal output, I would think; they already have Metalborn outlaws.

No, it is not like having a knife. To use Hemalurgy you must hurt someone, no exceptions. Knife is a tool with many uses that don't result in harm, Hemalurgy has none.
Typically that requires killing someone, so if you want to spike Misting or Ferring for their powers, you must kill them for that.

Society where that is common knowledge will have more crime like that, and more crime in general. Again, see analogy of guns and gun crime @alder24 suggested.
If you have tool that can be only used to harm someone, having it generally available will lead to more harm.

Edited by therunner
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36 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Of course not everyone is a sociopath. But there are individuals who would use it. Give them a weapon and they will start killing. But the difference is, this weapon is the knowledge, which after you release it to the public, you can't control it, and you can't use it to defend  yourself.

Okay, that makes sense. Even if everyone has access to Hemalurgy, it doesn't really protect those that don't want to be spiked, or really anyone from being spiked in the first place.

37 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You gain nothing from stabbing somebody with a knife, but from spiking him with a hemalurgy, you gain more power. Imagine every single criminal can become Metalborn because they don't have scruples. How does this knowledge which was gained by the Set was used? to kill people, steal their powers, kidnap more and more people and create hemalurgic monsters. There was no government to control or stop them. Now with hemalurgy as a public knowledge, every criminal organization can do the same. And will have to do it, to stop other organizations from competing with them. 

I don't think that every crime ring would start using it if more serious laws were put in place and since Metalborn would be more aware of the dangers of being Hemalurgically robbed, it would likely be a lot harder to accomplish.

 

40 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Ironically it wasn't the government that stopped the Set, it was more thanks to Ghostbloods help, who are a criminal organization.

True, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the government couldn't step in to stop your typical criminal element who uses Hemalurgy, especially if the vast majority of the population is terrified of Hemalurgy's potential.

 

42 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I'm not talking about the end. I'm talking about absolute abuse, and the danger it poses. Criminal use of Hemalurgy would become far more common thing.

That is almost certainly true. More people would be able to use Hemalurgy to do harm if it became widespread knowledge, but countermeasures could also be put in place by the people to mitigate criminal use of it. This would also make it much harder for secret organizations similar to the Set from gaining such an overwhelming advantage, since the law has a better idea of what to look for to determine if Metalborn are being spiked, and they will develop better weapons and strategies to deal with Hemalurgists.

TLM spoilers.

Spoiler

Such as Rannet's new guns and exploding bullets for Wax.

 

48 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Putting everyone in danger like that is just irresponsible.

If I were to simply throw the knowledge of spiking Metalborn to steal their power, then yes, it would be a crime against humanity itself.

I do not believe that if you were to make the public aware of its general existence to raise awareness of what others could use against you, and that you saw that society developed measures to protect the populace against such evil actions, that it would be irresponsible though. I can understand and respect your opinion though.

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9 minutes ago, therunner said:

Being a donor is described as resulting in illness, depression, reduced capacity to perceive colors/sounds/etc., to perceive other living beings, if the one doing the spiking does not kill you outright (which has not been shown or confirmed to actually result in usable spikes).
Warbreaker spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

Basically like being a drab or worse

 

You could, if you had unkeyed stores prepared by a compounder on hand, or you were compounder yourself, not everyday things.

If you spike someone without healing them, then yes, it will lead to a severely reduced life quality, and it may be more difficult to replace lost pieces of Spiritweb than I am imagining. So don't make it a regular thing. Only spike when it is actually necessary, which likely isn't that often.

12 minutes ago, therunner said:

But it would still result in scar on soul, and you would not be the same.

WoR spoilers

Spoiler

Kaladin regrows a lost portion of his Spiritweb after being cut by Szeth's Shardblade, and he does feel some lingering pain. For a few hours.

Maybe if you were spiked many times in quick succession and kept grafting on new pieces of Spiritweb it would be a problem, but I doubt that the scarring that exists is normally a big deal. It's more like having that part of your Spiritweb being made of whatever Investiture you used to heal with. So in Kaladin's case, he now has a small portion of Honor's pure Investiture making up part of his Spiritweb, which as a Rosharan, he kind of already had.

 

16 minutes ago, therunner said:

No, it is not like having a knife. To use Hemalurgy you must hurt someone, no exceptions. Knife is a tool with many uses that don't result in harm, Hemalurgy has none.
Typically that requires killing someone, so if you want to spike Misting or Ferring for their powers, you must kill them for that.

TLM spoilers

Spoiler

Yes, to use hemalurgy requires pain, though it doesn't have to require death. Criminals would most likely kill their victims though, so I suppose that this isn't entirely relevant.

 

19 minutes ago, therunner said:

Society where that is common knowledge will have more crime like that, and more crime in general. Again, see analogy of guns and gun crime @alder24 suggested.
If you have tool that can be only used to harm someone, having it generally available will lead to more harm.

There is a possibility of Hemalurgy related crimes increasing. That is undeniable.

My personal take is it is better to release the information and develop ways to protect against large, extremely dangerous organizations like the Set and develop some potentially useful technologies by researching Hemalurgy's mechanics, but also have to deal with smaller scale crimes being committed by more potential Hemalurgists - you can't protect yourself from that which you do not know, and the Set proves that there are people who use Hemalurgy's secret to their advantage, and you might as well learn something that could really benefit society while you're at it.

But that is my own opinion, and I recognize that not everyone will agree with it. It is good to see others' thoughts on the matter though, as I wouldn't have been able to think of all the potential implications of Hemalurgy's impact of society on my own.

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33 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I don't think that every crime ring would start using it if more serious laws were put in place and since Metalborn would be more aware of the dangers of being Hemalurgically robbed, it would likely be a lot harder to accomplish.

True, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the government couldn't step in to stop your typical criminal element who uses Hemalurgy, especially if the vast majority of the population is terrified of Hemalurgy's potential.

They can step in only after damage is done, not prevent it from happening in the first place. What's the use of the punishment if your son is still dead?

34 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

That is almost certainly true. More people would be able to use Hemalurgy to do harm if it became widespread knowledge, but countermeasures could also be put in place by the people to mitigate criminal use of it.

What countermeasures? There is no way to mitigate it, like with gun registrations or psychological tests to gain gun license. You give knowledge to the public and you lose control over it. Even harsh penalties won't prevent criminals from killing. 

37 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

and they will develop better weapons and strategies to deal with Hemalurgists.

You are dealing only with after effects, your job as a government is to prevent crime from happening, to make people be safe. You can't filter to whom you give knowledge based on psychological tests or practical training, like with a gun license. Once the knowledge is out, you have no control over it.

40 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I do not believe that if you were to make the public aware of its general existence to raise awareness of what others could use against you, and that you saw that society developed measures to protect the populace against such evil actions, that it would be irresponsible though. I can understand and respect your opinion though.

But it's not like educating people to avoid drugs because they are bad for your health. It's not your choice in case of Hemalurgy. If they want to spike you, you can't prevent them from doing this, nor can the government. There is no way to protect yourself from hemalurgy.

 

53 minutes ago, therunner said:

Warbreaker spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

Basically like being a drab or worse

 

Warbreaker:

Spoiler

Worse

Volratho

If someone was tapping gold, would spiking a separate ability out of them kill them? Or would it work at all?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible to spike someone without killing them. But they'd never be the same. It would be worse than being a drab.

#SandersonChat Twitter Q&A with Audible.com (Feb. 4, 2016)

There are also "other complications" for a person receiving spikes:

Spoiler

zas678

You've said that Inquisitors could have children. Would those children have a better chance at being Allomancers compared to if they had the kids before they were Inquisitors?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but there also could be...complications.

/r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 17, 2012)

 

Spoiler

Miss_Silver

Is there a maximum number of spikes a person can have? Would having more spikes eventually cause issues, be it mental or physical limitations?

Also do the benefits from spikes have some form of diminishing returns, or could some one have like, 200 bronze spikes and be able to sense a person burning metal through copper from 50 miles away?

Brandon Sanderson

1) Yes, it would cause big issues.

2) #1 interferes greatly with what you would like to do here, but there are other ways of magnifying the powers to the extent you postulate.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018)

 

31 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

WoR spoilers

Healing a soul is like sewing a hole in your clothes with a patch, it isn't the same thing after it. There might be some consequences of it, we don't know yet. Not to mention healing a soul with gold requires a lot of attribute.

Spoiler

Kurkistan

So you've said that healing is like the Spiritual wants to heal and then it filters through the Cognitive, but how's that work with healing wounds to the soul like Hemalurgy or Shardblades? What do you refer to to heal the soul at that point?

Brandon Sanderson

You need to make a patch on the soul with Investiture.

Kurkistan

So how's the Investiture know where to go, what to look like?

Brandon Sanderson

Well your soul is an ideal. So if you can get it up there, there are ways to do-- to recreate that with um... See I'm getting into stuff for later books.

Argent

No, that's okay.

Kurkistan

So when Hemalurgy rips something off the soul, is that the ideal soul or some sub-soul?

Brandon Sanderson

That is off of your soul, and it can be healed; but what it's going to be doing is creating a patch of new soul. So it will not be your original soul. Does that make sense?

Kurkistan

Okay, that- well, not completely, but I think that's your intention.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Bystander

If you do that, is that like Frankenstein's monster, or is it like a graft that's absorb--

Brandon Sanderson

Less horrifying- Less horrifying than Frankenstein's monster, but it is a graft that is like-- It is not your original soul.

Bystander

Yeah, but in modern medicine stuff like that is absorbed-

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, in this you will always have a scar on your soul that something else has patched over.

Kurkistan

So Kaladin shouldn't just keep getting his arm chopped?

Brandon Sanderson

*ignoring/not-hearing Kurkistan just now* But that is what happens with most forms of Investiture in the first place.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

 

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2 hours ago, alder24 said:

 

How? How do you register all hemalurgic spikes when they can be everything, from simple piercing to rusty nail pushed deep inside your body, invisible from the outside. There is no way to control it once the knowledge is out. Everyone can make their own spikes. There is no way to regulate it.

 

It might be hard force people to register spikes, but, seeing that metal is so prominent on Scadrial I find it highly likely that metal detectors will exist and probably be fairly common by era 3. This would help counteract the issue of hidden spikes. If Scadrians also have x-ray machines by then it would be super easy to detect spikes. 

These could be placed at the entrance to many buildings such as schools, government buildings, and public transportation such as trains.

Of an individual is found to have a spike, but has no paperwork, they would then be taken in.

Edited by Stick The Savant
Contradiction
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33 minutes ago, Stick The Savant said:

You definitely couldn't force people to register spikes, but, seeing that metal is so prominent on Scadrial I find it highly likely that metal detectors will exist and probably be fairly common by era 3. This would help counteract the issue of hidden spikes. If Scadrians also have x-ray machines by then it would be super easy to detect spikes. 

These could be placed at the entrance to many buildings such as schools, government buildings, and public transportation such as trains.

Of an individual is found to have a spike, but has no paperwork, they would then be taken in.

And you prove that the Hemalurgic spikes is not just an earring, how?

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17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The Southerners agreed to trade with Wax for them at the end of BoM.

Spoiler

Yea, but by the end of TLM relations are clearly much worse between the countries. If the Malwish ban tourism, I doubt the would still be willing to give powerfull medallions to the northerners.

 

Edited by Stick The Savant
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