Reading excuses - 2/20/23 - ginger_reckoning - changeling sub 9 (4680 words) (L, G)

[ginger_reckoning Stormwarden]

Hey all, we're back to the regularly scheduled chapters from A's viewpoint this time. My main concerns with this chapter are that: 

a. The conversations go on too long

b. Some of the information may seem redundant from previous chapters. 

 

Again, I'm looking for what you think can be cut from this one as I think it might be too long. I'm also concerned with how you think the relationships between characters are developing at this point. 

 

Tags are for language and medical gore

 

Thanks again! 

[Ace of Hearts Misting]

Excited to get back into reading your submissions after all the helpful comments you’ve been leaving on mine!

Overall: The good news is that this is the sub I was most engaged with from the story, and in particular I like the development we get between M and A. To be frank their dynamic didn’t interest me much before this chapter so my main takeaway is that this should come earlier or we should get hints of it sooner. I like how the story plays up that A is so desperate that he doesn’t have much of a choice but to work with M despite his obvious hesitation. I think that reads better than him seemingly ignoring the red flags in earlier chapters.

My main constructive comment for this chapter is that while I don’t think the conversations are too long necessarily like you were worried about, I didn’t get a ton from all of the scenes (see LBLs). I’m interested in A and his story right now, but not necessarily the characters surrounding him.

As I go:

Pg 3-5. I got a food feeling for the first convo with H but I don’t feel a strong connection to this scene with R and L

Pg 8-9. I don’t trust M when he says he’ll follow A’s lead, but this does make the dynamic more interesting

Pg 10. I’m engaged with this despite kinda being an infodump because of how relevant it is to the plot and A’s goals

Pg 11-13. I really like the development here. Makes me think we should get to this point in the story earlier

Pg 14-17. This is another scene I don’t get a good feeling for. Is the development here that C is cautious about A’s new powers? I think I need to know more about his thought process than “hey it’s weird he says a god is in his head” since while I am worried about A being manipulated by M I also don’t know if it looks like he’s being corrupted right now.

[kais Scadrian Waffle Cook]

Coming in cold, please forgive random statements of confusion

 

Overall

Likely due to having come in at the ninth sub, the large swaths of dialogue did not hold my attention. It was unclear to me how they were moving the plot along. I did connect well with Ce at the end, as there was movement there (figurative and literal), although what that POV accomplished in terms of arc, I'm not sure.

While well written and easy to follow, I'm not sure what the purpose of the chapter was. It looks like a lot of information exchange, but to what end? Clearly I have no idea what the A, B, or C plots are, so keep that in mind. I'm a wandering patron at a bookstore, picking up this book, opening to the middle, and deciding to buy or not!

I did enjoy the numerous nonbinary characters. ten points all around.

As I go

- pg 4: There's a lot of dialogue through here, and sort of slice of life stuff. Was there a big battle last chapter? This is a very low key start to a chapter so wondering if its recovery time, or if it needs to move the plot along a little faster

- pg 6: why would the lovers quarrel be disgusting? Assuming I'm missing some in-world context

- pg 6: then went inside to eat some porridge <-- this sums up my thoughts on the first six pages. It's very day to day without much build up to drive the reader to keep reading. Ending on a note like this makes me wonder if the interlude was needed. Coming off a big action or development chapter I could see the need for some down time. Coming off another introspective chapter, it would drag

- pg 6: be used to imitate a human <--- so. Here. I dislike this trope of using magic to change sex characteristics, particularly when it equates that to being otherworldly or not human. I understand it is a widely held fantasy among the trans community and fantasies are important. The issue is that when presented like this it is very othering to the intersex community, as it pairs phenotype change with being some form of other. An easy way around this is to change how the change itself is discussed. Adding a sentence or two that makes it clear that the magic is otherworldly but body changing was still human, albeit rare, would take care of the issue entirely.

- pg 9: there's a lot of talking again. I was engaged during the body morph introspection because it was doing a nice job character building. But the dialogue exchange now is making me antsy for plot movement

- pg 10: I'm overwhelmed by the new names in the lore dump

- pg 13: POV shifts mid-chapter, especially when the chapter is all dialogue, is rough to follow

- I've connected more with Ce than any character yet in this chapter. This character feels a lot more dynamic

 

 

[Yuliya Gyorn]

As I go:

P.1. the word “creep” is used very often

P.2. I think questions about whether H could “pull it off” and how many times could be asked together, not separately

P.3. “dragon-like” – cool image

“of their skin”- “on” perhaps?

P.4. mm, why is it so surprising that C is asleep? They had a busy night, after all. I felt like I am missing something here

P.5. one “that” is extra in the first paragraph

“signed” should be “sighed”

“I’m not going to help you” – felt a little abrupt for me, considering C really liked the plan before

P.6. “the black standing out” – a timely reminder of mila’s physical differences from humans. It is easy to forget how cool they are. The only thing I wondered about is how safe it is to wear a true form in the city square – yes, it is their neighborhood, but we saw outsiders there before (the rival gang and the policemen), so it strikes me as an unnecessary risk.

P.7. “claws or fangs as he had last night” – seems strange these are off limits because some people naturally sharp canines or very thick nails. For example, my grandfather had a toenail that a hawk would be jelous of, haha.

“a god” probably should be “gods” since there are thrones

P.9. “not wishing involve” – missing “to”

P.10. “I have long loved life in all its forms” – and yet drove A to kill those two tigers?

P.12. “such an one” – should be “a”

“constantly telling me what to do” – wasn’t M quiet most of the time?

Overall:

I liked that we got some lore in these chapters and I felt like C does – that something is fishy about M. If that was intentional – great, if not – perhaps something can be done to make M seem more reliable.

I felt that conversation with H was a little long and that C’s method of research in the library is very incompetent (I know he is supposed to be poorly educated, but I would think he would be aware of his shortcomings and ask someone for help. Right now, searching for a book with M’s name on it in a library that takes up several city blocks seems like a fool’s errand.).

But, as always, I enjoyed the style and the story, and am looking forward to more!

[ginger_reckoning Stormwarden]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

On 2/21/2023 at 7:10 AM, Ace of Hearts said:

I think that reads better than him seemingly ignoring the red flags in earlier chapters.

Yeah, I think this will be one of my main goals for these early chapters in the second draft. That is, making it seem like he's not just ignoring the red flags

On 2/21/2023 at 7:10 AM, Ace of Hearts said:

The good news is that this is the sub I was most engaged with from the story, and in particular I like the development we get between M and A

That's good to hear

On 2/21/2023 at 7:10 AM, Ace of Hearts said:

I think I need to know more about his thought process than “hey it’s weird he says a god is in his head” since while I am worried about A being manipulated by M I also don’t know if it looks like he’s being corrupted right now.

That's fair. I might move this section to a later chapter in later drafts, since yeah, it might seem like an overreaction at this point

On 2/21/2023 at 10:58 AM, kais said:

There's a lot of dialogue through here, and sort of slice of life stuff. Was there a big battle last chapter? This is a very low key start to a chapter so wondering if its recovery time, or if it needs to move the plot along a little faster

Yes, there was an action scene right before this one, though it was short. I think I tend to have too much introspection in general, which is something I need to keep track of better

On 2/21/2023 at 10:58 AM, kais said:

so. Here. I dislike this trope of using magic to change sex characteristics, particularly when it equates that to being otherworldly or not human. I understand it is a widely held fantasy among the trans community and fantasies are important. The issue is that when presented like this it is very othering to the intersex community, as it pairs phenotype change with being some form of other. An easy way around this is to change how the change itself is discussed.

Thanks this is really helpful! I have mentioned in earlier chapters how there are still nonbinary humans, but yes, this is also a different issue entirely. Hm. I think if I do seek publication, I will definitely look for nb/trans sensitivity readers as well as probably racial sensitivity readers (even though the races are supposed to be nonspecific here). You said that you think here it should be an easy fix, though? That's good to hear.

6 hours ago, Yuliya said:

he word “creep” is used very often

 

6 hours ago, Yuliya said:

“of their skin”- “on” perhaps

 

6 hours ago, Yuliya said:

“not wishing involve” – missing “to”

Thanks for catching these grammatical mistakes!

6 hours ago, Yuliya said:

so it strikes me as an unnecessary risk.

This is a good point

6 hours ago, Yuliya said:

seems strange these are off limits because some people naturally sharp canines or very thick nails. For example, my grandfather had a toenail that a hawk would be jelous of, haha.

Haha, that does seem like a weirdly fitting thing for a grandfather to have. It also does bring up a good point. I think I should probably address the fact that the average m also can't recreate certain physical anomalies or birth defects

6 hours ago, Yuliya said:

“I have long loved life in all its forms” – and yet drove A to kill those two tigers?

Glad you caught onto this! M is a lying [email protected]$tard, that's all I'm going to say

Thank you Ace of Hearts, kais, and Yuliya!

 

 

 

[kais Scadrian Waffle Cook]

2 hours ago, ginger_reckoning said:

Hm. I think if I do seek publication, I will definitely look for nb/trans sensitivity readers as well as probably racial sensitivity

I think it’s intersex readers you need, not trans or non-binary ones. This type of change is common even in trans-written works. It just is problematic in terms of intersex erasure. 

[Cathy Lim Ardent]

As always I really enjoy this story and the characters! I just have a few things-

Page 5

Wouldn't L be curious or put out by the fact that C and A are having a conversation L is being left out of? I expected L to be upset about it given they are watching A so carefully.

Pages 8-12

I know this is all important information, but my mind drifted and it lost me. I'm also not certain about M giving A control to make decisions without much of a fight. Seems they caved a bit quickly. 

Page 13

Have we had a C POV before this? I can't remember. I had a hard time tracking this POV with them referring to themselves as they. I kept thinking there was more than one person there all of a sudden. I guess it's just my old lady brain that can't handle new things.

Page 14

"In A's case, however, with the way he talked about hearing the voice of a god"-- Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought C said something to A at the beginning of that first chapter I read about not mentioning A could hear M. Was I wrong about that?

Overall this is great! I have full confidence it will turn out wonderful!

[Mandamon Midnight Essence]

I think cutting this chapter down significantly would help. I didn't feel much connection or movement in the first section as most all of it is in A's head. There's not much movement in the plot or the characters here, and a big history dump from M in the middle. I want more reasons to care about WHY M is so weaselly and acting strange. Otherwise, yes, it seems like a lot of this is repeated information.

The second part was better, but again, there's not a lot of direction to the plot. Stating at the beginning that C is looking for information about M will help direct it.

 

Notes while reading:

pg 2: “How many times do you think you could pull this off?”
--meaning taking G's place? I'm still not entirely sure what the plan is with the chickens.

pg 3: "After some time"
--These first few pages are pretty slow. I wonder if they could be condensed down to a few paragraphs?

pg 5: "I’m not going to help you."
--Still not sure what they're (not) helping with.

pg 6: I'm surprised L doesn't ask more questions.

pg 6: "they had made good progress"
--on what?

pg 7: Is something else happening at the same time? This a lot of internal monologue from A, but not a lot that's affecting the plot.

pg 7: "could feel the material."
--Not sure what material

pg 7: "there was about twenty-five pounds of the stuff,
--what? What's going on?

pg 8: "it has only been one day."
--I thought it had been a couple?

pg 10: "That’s horrifying,"
This is good conversation, and at least we have two characters now, but the whole chapter has been in A's head. Can we have some description of movement, or what's going on? Is he still just sitting at at table?

pg 11: This might actually have been too much history? We don't have reasons for knowing this yet, so I fell like it's going to lead to a lag in tension later on.

pg 11: "was perhaps not the most noble or righteous of gods"
--*cough*understatement*cough*

pg 12: Ok, I think what I find strange about M is that he says he's a god, he does god-type actions, but he speaks and acts like a sort of confused human. I keep expecting him to say "yeah, I touched this weird rock and got my god powers. I'm as clueless as you."

Pg 13: I think this whole section can be cut down a lot to just the essentials. What moves the plot forward? What changes the character?

pg 16: "they realized they had no idea what, exactly, they were to do here. "
--I feel like this is sort of a running theme in this chapter. I'm not completely sure what's going on.

pg 17: "This was going to take a while. "
--So they do know what they're going to do. Maybe stating this at the beginning of the section, or how they're suspicious or something to direct the arc.

[Silk Shade]

“…it was close enough to fool someone if they didn’t already know the trick.” Everything else we’ve read has given me the impression the shapeshifting is fairly exact.

The tail end of this conversation between A and H could maybe be trimmed down to a few lines: rather than A asking “how many times can you do this” jump down to “can you get me out during the day.”

Is this not-at-all-circumspectly signed conversation with C going to get A into trouble later? I sort of hope it does. Also, if the could have done this inside and it’s only important to hide what’s being said, and not that they’re having a private conversation in general, why couldn’t they have just done this inside?

Maybe WRS, but C’s reaction to “M can hear thoughts” seems like a non-sequitur. I’m not sure what idea C is referring to, what it has to do with psychic godlets spying on one’s thoughts, or why A reacted the way he did.

P6 “Disgusting” seems like an overreaction to the “lover’s quarrel” comment, and I really don't understand where it's coming from given what else we've seen of the world.

P7 “The power couldn’t be used to heal or give oneself claws or fangs…” Curious as to why this distinction exists in the worldbuilding, other than the fact that it’s narratively needed to make M’s powers seem different/more ominous. Not sure whether it will need explaining or not.

P10 is A just standing in the street while he has this conversation with M?

Also, this conversation feels like it runs long. I’m sure you can trim some lines here and there within it but I wonder if it’s about the way the conversation is framed as much as anything. Is there way to break it up with A doing other things that move us farther along towards the story’s goals?

P11 “If the story was indeed true…” Does A believe it is? I don’t have a good sense of that.

P12: Oh, more conversation with A and M. I’d definitely look for ways to trim/break up/intersperse with other things.

P13 “Some m had trouble recognizing one of their fellows when…” This makes the plan to have H continue to wear someone else’s face seem even more tenuous.

P14 “…the power was changing him.” I don’t think C has actually tried to have this conversation with A, have they? The dread here is good, but it’s the first time I’ve really gotten a sense of it. Also, we haven't really gotten a sense of this from A himself. Even if A is unaware that his points of view are shifting, that's something we as readers should be able to track, and so far I don't feel like we are. 

So what is it C’s doing that’s actually foolhardy?

“A liked making himself appear older because… C liked it because…” I really like these little details of how the two characters view their shapechanging.

 I think that, excepting the interlude, this is the first time we've gotten a POV from anyone other than A, yes? I'm wondering why now for C's POV. Right now it feels like it's only there to introduce the concern that A is changing without realizing it, and I think if this is going to be a major story thread (which it does seem the previous chapters have been positioning us for) that we need to see more evidence of it before we get a POV that can just tell us that this is a problem. 

On 2/20/2023 at 2:58 PM, ginger_reckoning said:

a. The conversations go on too long

b. Some of the information may seem redundant from previous chapters. 

a. I'm inclined to agree with this. It's hard to make suggestions about cutting dialogue without getting really prescriptive--I made one suggestion above--but mostly I think you can just look through the dialogue and trim a few lines here and there while hitting the same beats. 

b.  I think a little bit of the information at the beginning of the conversation with M is stuff we already know, yes, but more than that I think the problem is that all of that information is given to us without really advancing other aims of the story. Can A be doing something else at the same time? Or have a really clear goal in asking the questions that he does/does not achieve? Does M have a goal in revealing the info (that A may or may not intuit)? Etc. Plus, this conversation is just fairly long, so breaking some of it up--perhaps there are multiple conversations, perhaps some of it just comes in dribs and drabs--will probably help. 

One of the things I'm excited about is this story arc we seem to be heading towards where we watch A change/be changed without realizing it. That said, I think we really need to start seeing this change. Right now, we're only really getting this from the guards that have been assigned to watch A, and now being told from C's POV directly. Some showing rather than telling is definitely in order. And if this first POV from C is going to stay and stay where it is, we probably need some escalation as well to make C's worries carry more weight. 

[ginger_reckoning Stormwarden]

18 hours ago, Silk said:

“…the power was changing him.” I don’t think C has actually tried to have this conversation with A, have they? The dread here is good, but it’s the first time I’ve really gotten a sense of it. Also, we haven't really gotten a sense of this from A himself. Even if A is unaware that his points of view are shifting, that's something we as readers should be able to track, and so far I don't feel like we are. 

 

18 hours ago, Silk said:

“…the power was changing him.” I don’t think C has actually tried to have this conversation with A, have they? The dread here is good, but it’s the first time I’ve really gotten a sense of it. Also, we haven't really gotten a sense of this from A himself. Even if A is unaware that his points of view are shifting, that's something we as readers should be able to track, and so far I don't feel like we are. 

Thanks, this is very helpful to hear. I could definitely stand to address this in a more subtle fashion, with more showing and less telling for sure. 

 

18 hours ago, Silk said:

Or have a really clear goal in asking the questions that he does/does not achieve? Does M have a goal in revealing the info (that A may or may not intuit)?

Thanks! That's really good advice!

18 hours ago, Silk said:

The power couldn’t be used to heal or give oneself claws or fangs…” Curious as to why this distinction exists in the worldbuilding, other than the fact that it’s narratively needed to make M’s powers seem different/more ominous. Not sure whether it will need explaining or not

There actually is a reason for this. The m are descended from a small population of true shapeshifters, but the power has sort of "thinned out" across the generations. At this point, does this feel like necessary information? I didn't really think so, and I didn't see a reason why A would know this, but maybe he could find it out.

Thank you Silk!

[Silk Shade]

3 hours ago, ginger_reckoning said:

At this point, does this feel like necessary information? I didn't really think so, and I didn't see a reason why A would know this, but maybe he could find it out.

Not at this point, no, though I did notice it, obviously. Maybe it's something that can be explained later, but this is one of those things that just might also smooth itself in later drafts, since by that point readers are more likely to have more confidence in the worldbuilding in general. 

Or, I suppose another solution would be to hang a lantern on it, "A didn't know why that was" or somesuch. But again, although it's something readers will probably notice, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a stumbling block.