Jump to content

Hemalurgic Bullets


Elder

Recommended Posts

I’m re-reading Shadows of Self, and I’m wondering:

What could be accomplished with Hemalurgic Bullets.  One such bullet put Pa’alm back under Harmony’s control, but perhaps you could accomplish other things.

For instance, multiple bullets could make a normal person into someone susceptible to control via emotional allomancy.  Or, with Hemalurgic Aluminum bullets, you could become a complete bane to an invested opponent.  Rusts, use those for firing squads against people like Myles Hundredlives.

I’m starting to see why Harmony wanted to keep a lid on this stuff.

I’m thinking for Hemalurgic control, you use shot gun rounds in Alluminum casing.  Preserves the Hemalurgic Charge, and allows for multiple piercings, facilitating better control.  That would probably work well for Hemalurgic aluminum too, as it means you need not be as accurate.  Of course a Hemalurgic Aluminum Sniper Rifle could be a powerful weapon for someone who wants to drop an invested high value target.

I’d say this prohibitively expensive.  Not to mention all the people you’d have to kill in order to get a decent ammunition supply.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Huh,

TLM

  Hide contents

Given that misplaced Hemalurgic spikes cause excruciating pain, that could actually be really effective

 

And Hemalurgy is generally, somewhat miraculously, non-fatal…… this could be a really vindictive.

I’m not gonna lie.  This idea is really disturbing me.  The more I think about it, the more evil it feels.  
Interesting villain concept perhaps?  The True Anti-Wax.  A Hemalurgy using gun for higher.  Probably a sniper who can place (or misplace) these bullets with incredible accuracy.

Edited by Elder
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Elder said:

For instance, multiple bullets could make a normal person into someone susceptible to control via emotional allomancy. 

Absolutely. This would make mind-control a much more available option in the Cosmere.

13 hours ago, Elder said:

I’d say this prohibitively expensive.  Not to mention all the people you’d have to kill in order to get a decent ammunition supply.

you could split a single spike into many smaller pieces. The only reason you normally don't do this with Hemalurgic spikes is because you loose even more potency when you do this. But if all you want is to open someone up to control or to cause them pain, that isn't any of your concern.

Quote

Tor.com Q&A with Brandon Sanderson - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Maru Nui

What happens when you break a Hemalurgic spike or metalmind? What happens to that power?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgic power can be split among multiple spikes and reforged, but remember that the longer a spike is outside of a person, the more the power is going to decay. Things like splitting it will decay it even further. Metalminds can also be broken and still be accessed

 

13 hours ago, Elder said:

I’m starting to see why Harmony wanted to keep a lid on this stuff.

I thought that it was more because the art itself disgusted him. But I could see him being worried about how powerful it might make some individuals with malicious intent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Absolutely. This would make mind-control a much more available option in the Cosmere.

you could split a single spike into many smaller pieces. The only reason you normally don't do this with Hemalurgic spikes is because you loose even more potency when you do this. But if all you want is to open someone up to control or to cause them pain, that isn't any of your concern.

 

I thought that it was more because the art itself disgusted him. But I could see him being worried about how powerful it might make some individuals with malicious intent.

Honestly it’s scaring me.

I do have a question about Hemalurgic Aluminum:

are its effects permanent?  Or do you get the power back once the spike is removed?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Elder said:

Honestly it’s scaring me.

As a Hemalurgic conasuir, I can say that it probably won't be too bad. Probably.

Hemalurgy is dangerous, but with mag-tech evolving as it is currently in the Cosmere, I see it becoming less of a threat than just another (albeit very fascinating and unique) manifestation of Investiture.

Its biggest thing is that you can steal people's powers and make a single really Invested being (or many Invested beings), but with Southern Scadrien medallion tech, advancements in Awakening, and Roshar's Fabrials, it isn't going to be the only thing capable of such feats forever; power is becoming more accessible to the masses, not the individual few.

17 hours ago, Elder said:

I do have a question about Hemalurgic Aluminum:

are its effects permanent?  Or do you get the power back once the spike is removed?

My assumption is that aluminum, when used in Hemalurgy, steals all Invested powers, but because aluminum itself cannot conduct Investiture, the Hemalurgic charge isn't kept to be stappled onto someone else. This would explain why aluminum "removes all powers".

As Hemalurgy actually removes a piece of the Spiritweb, yes, powers removed via aluminum Hemalurgy would be permanently lost if not regenerated via some other form of Investiture (though in the case of aluminum Hemalurgy, you would likely require an outside source to heal you, since your Invested healing just got excised by the spiking).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

As a Hemalurgic conasuir, I can say that it probably won't be too bad. Probably.

Hemalurgy is dangerous, but with mag-tech evolving as it is currently in the Cosmere, I see it becoming less of a threat than just another (albeit very fascinating and unique) manifestation of Investiture.

Its biggest thing is that you can steal people's powers and make a single really Invested being (or many Invested beings), but with Southern Scadrien medallion tech, advancements in Awakening, and Roshar's Fabrials, it isn't going to be the only thing capable of such feats forever; power is becoming more accessible to the masses, not the individual few.

My assumption is that aluminum, when used in Hemalurgy, steals all Invested powers, but because aluminum itself cannot conduct Investiture, the Hemalurgic charge isn't kept to be stappled onto someone else. This would explain why aluminum "removes all powers".

As Hemalurgy actually removes a piece of the Spiritweb, yes, powers removed via aluminum Hemalurgy would be permanently lost if not regenerated via some other form of Investiture (though in the case of aluminum Hemalurgy, you would likely require an outside source to heal you, since your Invested healing just got excised by the spiking).

Ok, so your saying Aluminum removes the powers of the person sacrificed to make the spike (who’s probably already dying), not the person who receives the spike.

By that logic, any aluminum bullet technically becomes a Hemalurgic spike bullet.  I’m pretty sure Wax and Wayne (especially Wayne) take an aluminum bullet or two.  Might still be bind point reliant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Elder said:

Ok, so your saying Aluminum removes the powers of the person sacrificed to make the spike (who’s probably already dying), not the person who receives the spike.

By that logic, any aluminum bullet technically becomes a Hemalurgic spike bullet.  I’m pretty sure Wax and Wayne (especially Wayne) take an aluminum bullet or two.  Might still be bind point reliant.

Intent matters. Without intent it's not a spike.

Edit: I think that a simple piece of aluminum with intent to be a spike and correct bind point will "remove all powers" from the spiked person, as long as he has that spike. Aluminum itself can't be invested, so it can't hold a piece of someone's soul like a normal spike.

Edited by alder24
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Intent matters. Without intent it's not a spike.

Edit: I think that a simple piece of aluminum with intent to be a spike and correct bind point will "remove all powers" from the spiked person, as long as he has that spike. Aluminum itself can't be invested, so it can't hold a piece of someone's soul like a normal spike.

Fair point, and a good set of requirements.

 

in theory, a very talented Sniper with an Alluminum bullet indented as a spike could completely remove the powers of an invested individual.  It would have to be perfectly aimed and deliberately done.  That tracks, and is useful for story purposes.  And doesn’t require someone to be sacrificed to make each bullet.  Much less dark that I felt before.

Hemalurgic Control Bullets on the other hand probably are about as dark and evil as they come.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Elder said:

in theory, a very talented Sniper with an Alluminum bullet indented as a spike could completely remove the powers of an invested individual.  It would have to be perfectly aimed and deliberately done.  That tracks, and is useful for story purposes.  And doesn’t require someone to be sacrificed to make each bullet.  Much less dark that I felt before.

Hemalurgic Control Bullets on the other hand probably are about as dark and evil as they come.

There are a lot of  problems with hemalurgic bullets - first, they have a lot of energy and very high speed. Bullets will just go through a body every time. It's good for spikes from regular metals, when the target is a donor, bad for aluminum as it won't stop in a body and in the correct place. Then there is a problem with bullet density and susceptibility to deformation. Most bullets made out of spike metals would deform, change course or even shatter on impact to dozens of pieces, particularly when striking bone. Sternum is right on the heart, where most spikes must be placed to steal powers. Then there is a problem with hemalurgic decay, you need to find invested metal in the surrounding area, which might be very difficult, and coat it with enough blood to prevent it from losing power. It's not a lot but still significant amounts, as the inquisitors preferred to place a recipient right below a donor to avoid losing power.

Overall I think that using bullets as hemalurgic spikes, as fun and powerful as it sounds, is just too impractical and unreliable. You would need to construct a special gun and bullets with a small amount of gunpowder, to ensure that bullets wouldn't get shattered or deformed on impact, and be slow enough to not go far and disappear in a surrounding area. In case of aluminum it will have to be even slower to just stop in a body. And if speed is that low, they might not be able to penetrate a bone, so it won't reach certain bind points. That would seriously limit the range of the gun, its accuracy and deadliness.

But if you only care for hemalurgic control, then any piece of metal in a body will be enough. I don't think it needs to be in a binding point, as in books from Era 1 it was said that any metal in a body gives Ruin control, but hemalurgy wasn't that well understood back then. If no binding point is required, then constructing a bullet that would shatter on impact would give you all control you need. But if hitting a binding point is necessary, then this idea is not applicable, as hitting one would be highly improbable, and making a bullet shard stop in any binding point would be nearly impossible as precision is important. And it would still probably require an intent to place a spike in a specific binding point in the first place, so it becomes truly impossible.

While using bullets as hemalurgic spikes is a great idea, coinshoters would be far better than a gun. They can control speed and placement better than a gun. Aiming would be very hard as hitting the correct spot with precision would be as challenging as with a gun. Still, it's too random to work, so it won't be used widely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

There are a lot of  problems with hemalurgic bullets - first, they have a lot of energy and very high speed. Bullets will just go through a body every time. It's good for spikes from regular metals, when the target is a donor, bad for aluminum as it won't stop in a body and in the correct place. Then there is a problem with bullet density and susceptibility to deformation. Most bullets made out of spike metals would deform, change course or even shatter on impact to dozens of pieces, particularly when striking bone. Sternum is right on the heart, where most spikes must be placed to steal powers. Then there is a problem with hemalurgic decay, you need to find invested metal in the surrounding area, which might be very difficult, and coat it with enough blood to prevent it from losing power. It's not a lot but still significant amounts, as the inquisitors preferred to place a recipient right below a donor to avoid losing power.

Overall I think that using bullets as hemalurgic spikes, as fun and powerful as it sounds, is just too impractical and unreliable. You would need to construct a special gun and bullets with a small amount of gunpowder, to ensure that bullets wouldn't get shattered or deformed on impact, and be slow enough to not go far and disappear in a surrounding area. In case of aluminum it will have to be even slower to just stop in a body. And if speed is that low, they might not be able to penetrate a bone, so it won't reach certain bind points. That would seriously limit the range of the gun, its accuracy and deadliness.

But if you only care for hemalurgic control, then any piece of metal in a body will be enough. I don't think it needs to be in a binding point, as in books from Era 1 it was said that any metal in a body gives Ruin control, but hemalurgy wasn't that well understood back then. If no binding point is required, then constructing a bullet that would shatter on impact would give you all control you need. But if hitting a binding point is necessary, then this idea is not applicable, as hitting one would be highly improbable, and making a bullet shard stop in any binding point would be nearly impossible as precision is important. And it would still probably require an intent to place a spike in a specific binding point in the first place, so it becomes truly impossible.

While using bullets as hemalurgic spikes is a great idea, coinshoters would be far better than a gun. They can control speed and placement better than a gun. Aiming would be very hard as hitting the correct spot with precision would be as challenging as with a gun. Still, it's too random to work, so it won't be used widely.

I suppose it depends on where the bind point for aluminum is.  It may or may not require piecing a bone.

And it definitely would have to be a specialty round.  Just like it was when Wax used it on Pa’alm.  I imagine it would take a fair amount of experimentation to get the ballistics right.  It’s worth noting that Aluminum Bullets are made from aluminum alloys.  So do Hemalurgic Spikes need to be made from pure metal to carry the effect?

As for the required precision, I don’t think that’s necessarily as hard as you think.  I imagine it’s within reach of a talented and dedicated marksman, especially if enhanced with Tin, or perhaps Feruchemical chromium.  Or both.

You’d still need a delivery system for a coin shot to do it, since Alluminum can’t be moved allomantically.  Maybe a bullet casing.  That would make it difficult to get other enhancements though.

The main thrust I’m going for here is weaponized Hemalurgic Aluminum.  Preferably ranged.  There’s room to workshop.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Elder said:

So do Hemalurgic Spikes need to be made from pure metal to carry the effect?

Yes if you want to steal or remove, it's like with allomantic metals, they have to be pure. For hemalurgic control I suspect that you also need pure metal, as anything that isn't pure, can't be a spike.

3 minutes ago, Elder said:

As for the required precision, I don’t think that’s necessarily as hard as you think.  I imagine it’s within reach of a talented and dedicated marksman, especially if enhanced with Tin, or perhaps Feruchemical chromium.  Or both.

People move, don't stand still. Especially during a gunfight. And considering there are like 4 bind points in a heart alone, hitting the correct one from distance will be a highly difficult task.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes if you want to steal or remove, it's like with allomantic metals, they have to be pure. For hemalurgic control I suspect that you also need pure metal, as anything that isn't pure, can't be a spike.

People move, don't stand still. Especially during a gunfight. And considering there are like 4 bind points in a heart alone, hitting the correct one from distance will be a highly difficult task.

The need for the bullet to be pure Alluminum is probably going to be the dealbreaker here.  No pure Alluminum bullets and all.  No Hemalurgic Alluminum guns.

As for aiming, depends on what kind of shooting you’re doing.  I certainly wouldn’t want to try it in combat.  But, sniping a target at rest would be much less difficult.  Add an high level of natural skill and maybe metalborn augmentation, I still think it’s quite possible.  But, given the paragraph above the point is moot.  Sniping with a longbow or crossbow might be more likely, though that seems less accurate and like the spike is pretty easily removed.

Hemalurgic control is probably still on the table.  Now I wonder.  Usually it either takes Lerasium or talent not that far removed from Lerasium, Duralumin, or a group of emotional allomancers to take control of a Hemalurgic creature like a koloss or a kandra.  If you could use multiple Hemalurgic bullets, or better yet, Hemalurgic Shotgun pellets, I wonder if that would make it significantly easier, within the realm of your average modern rioter/soother.

As for whether control requires a bind point, I don’t know.  I feel like reviewing when Marsh spiked Penrod would be in order.  I’m not sure how much accuracy was involved when Spook was spiked.  Then again, he got pewter allomancy, so probably plenty.

This would still be someone killing people to make bullets (or shotgun pellets) with the express intent of taking away their freedom. Sounds pretty dark.

Edited by Elder
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Elder said:

As for whether control requires a bind point, I don’t know.  I feel like reviewing when Marsh spiked Penrod would be in order.  I’m not sure how much accuracy was involved when Spook was spiked.  Then again, he got pewter allomancy, so probably plenty.

I would only point out that in both of those occasions (Spook getting spiked, Penrod getting spiked) it was Ruin guiding the actions and providing Intent.
So neither are good examples of spiking 'on the fly', as it was effectively a Shard doing it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Elder said:

As for aiming, depends on what kind of shooting you’re doing.  I certainly wouldn’t want to try it in combat.  But, sniping a target at rest would be much less difficult.  Add an high level of natural skill and maybe metalborn augmentation, I still think it’s quite possible.  But, given the paragraph above the point is moot.  Sniping with a longbow or crossbow might be more likely, though that seems less accurate and like the spike is pretty easily removed.

While sniping the target at rest would be easier, he is still moving, breathing, scratching so he isn't staying still. Every single breath he takes moves his heart a little. Hitting a very specific part of a heart with precision from long range would still be a very difficult task. Possible yet highly unlikely. And if you are at a huge distance, then your sniper rounds have to be bigger, heavier with much more powder, to reach that target far away - if you want your spike (aluminum?) to stay in the target's body, you won't do it this way, as this round has now even more energy and would pierce through body like it wasn't even there. The same goes with shrapnels if you aim for control - they would just pierce the body fully.

18 hours ago, Elder said:

Hemalurgic control is probably still on the table.  Now I wonder.  Usually it either takes Lerasium or talent not that far removed from Lerasium, Duralumin, or a group of emotional allomancers to take control of a Hemalurgic creature like a koloss or a kandra.  If you could use multiple Hemalurgic bullets, or better yet, Hemalurgic Shotgun pellets, I wonder if that would make it significantly easier, within the realm of your average modern rioter/soother.

It might be the case. After all there is a reason why there is a threshold for hemalurgic control in the first place. More spikes, more cracks in the soul, easier to control - but will and mind of a victim has a lot to tell.

18 hours ago, Elder said:

As for whether control requires a bind point, I don’t know.  I feel like reviewing when Marsh spiked Penrod would be in order.  I’m not sure how much accuracy was involved when Spook was spiked.  Then again, he got pewter allomancy, so probably plenty.

Even with Marsh, it was Ruin who controlled placing the spike. With every other person, Ruin also influenced them, Vin's mum, Spook, Quellion etc. It's very likely the binding point is necessary for hemalurgic control.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I personally believe that Hemalurgic Aluminum is charged before hand, but it doesn't really matter for the aluminum hemalurgic round. If one can use a hollow tip shot and still hit the bindpoint depth, then that might be what is needed. Also, do we know if Vin's earing was coated during the spiking of her sister or not? (Or other coating relevant WoBs?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
On 14/02/2023 at 9:57 PM, alder24 said:

Yes if you want to steal or remove, it's like with allomantic metals, they have to be pure. For hemalurgic control I suspect that you also need pure metal, as anything that isn't pure, can't be a spike.

Could you maybe get around that by killing someone with the spike and then alloying it into a more ballistic-friendly alloy? Strictly speaking, for mind control you only need a charged spike in the body, so even if the charge is inaccessible, it should still work. I know its still up in the air whether it needs to be charged in the first place, but considering Aluminium can hold a Feruchemical charge, I assume it could hold a hemalurgic one too and that it's necessary to cause the 'lose all powers' effect, otherwise all you would need to do to is stab someone with Aluminium in the right place with the right intent (preferably somewhere where they'd die if they pulled it out, like Penrod) to make them unable to access Investiture. If pre-charging it doesn't work, or you don't need to charge it, would coating a spike/bullet in Auminium technically count as an Aluminium spike?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Could you maybe get around that by killing someone with the spike and then alloying it into a more ballistic-friendly alloy? Strictly speaking, for mind control you only need a charged spike in the body, so even if the charge is inaccessible, it should still work. I know its still up in the air whether it needs to be charged in the first place, but considering Aluminium can hold a Feruchemical charge, I assume it could hold a hemalurgic one too and that it's necessary to cause the 'lose all powers' effect, otherwise all you would need to do to is stab someone with Aluminium in the right place with the right intent (preferably somewhere where they'd die if they pulled it out, like Penrod) to make them unable to access Investiture. If pre-charging it doesn't work, or you don't need to charge it, would coating a spike/bullet in Auminium technically count as an Aluminium spike?

Nice thinking but I don't think this would work. Yes, you can spike somebody with a pure base metal spike and later turn it into an alloy. But when doing so, it will cease to be a hemalurgic spike. The charge will be inaccessible and it won't be added into your soul. This might make this not work as a spike at all, and it won't produce a hole in your soul because of that. Why? Because it's an alloy now, and it is treated as non-invested metal. Like having and iron spike, stealing something with it, and turning it into steel. Now you have steel spike with some investiture in it, but the steel doesn't have the proper kind of investiture, and if you want to place it in somebody, it wouldn't act as a spike, because the magic system treats it as non-invested, and it would just be as a normal piece of metal, stuck in a body, with investiture that is inaccessible.

Regarding aluminum spike, if it requires charging, then alloying it after charging would certainly make it not work as an aluminum spike. If aluminum doesn’t require charging, and you need only to place it in a correct binding point, then as well, alloying it before would make it not work as an aluminum spike. Coating a steel bullet in aluminum might work as an aluminum spike - intent would probably matter here a lot. But another question arises, how much aluminum spike needs to remove all powers? Does a Mistborn require a bigger aluminum spike than Misting? In this case coating a bullet with aluminum might not work - too little aluminum.

Spoiler

Questioner

So, about Feruchemy. If someone takes, for example, a copper metalmind, fills it with memories, and then a tin metalmind, fills it with senses, then melts them together into a bronze metalmind, would you be able to tap anything from it, and what?

Brandon Sanderson

If you made an alloy of them, you would not get anything out of them. You would know there's Investiture in there, but you wouldn't be able to pull it out. 

Questioner

Even if it's your own?

Brandon Sanderson

Even if it's your own, yup. They would interfere with each other to the point that you wouldn't be able to get anything out. Sorry.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Rogaen

What would happen if a Feruchemist fills, for example, a tin metalmind then mixes it to make a pewter metalmind? Does the stored attribute change? Is the Investiture gone when you melt the metal? What if he just makes it into a tin metalmind again?

Brandon Sanderson

If you make it impure, you'll keep the investiture, but won't be able to get it out. If you make it back into the same thing, you'll be fine, and can access it normally. If you try to fill it, after changing the composition to make another viable metal, it will act a little like a computer hard drive with corrupted sectors. Some of it will work for the new investiture, but you won't be able to fill it nearly as full. (Depending on how full it was before you melted down.)

This holds for basic uses of the metallurgic arts. Once you start playing with some of the more advanced parts of the magic, you can achieve different results, which are currently RAFO.

eSPiaLx

Similarly, if you were to soulcast a metal would it have similar effects of corrupting the investiture and making it inaccessible? Like if you turned a steel metalmind into pewter.

Brandon Sanderson

I've stayed away from soulcasting and forging in these types of discussions, as I feel my answers will dig too deeply and prompt more questions that, eventually, will lead to lots of RAFO type questions. I don't really want to go there--but I will say this. Changing invested objects with other magics is hard, and often requires such a force of investiture yourself, that it becomes very power-inefficient. Just like we can technically turn lead into gold right now--by spending way more money than the gold is worth.

BipedSnowman

So you could, for example, use electrolysis to dissolve a metalmind in water, then reverse the reaction later to get the investiture?

OR, better question, if you store investiture in one allotrope of iron, can your retrieve it off you change to a different allotrope?

Brandon Sanderson

I see no reason why these wouldn't work.

dce42

So would forging with the blood of a radiant(kaladin, dalinar,etc) work on a shard blade from a fallen radiant to say change who they had bonded, or how the bond was broken (to say death instead of giving up on the oath)?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

General Reddit 2016 (Nov. 11, 2016)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Coating a steel bullet in aluminum might work as an aluminum spike - intent would probably matter here a lot. But another question arises, how much aluminum spike needs to remove all powers? Does a Mistborn require a bigger aluminum spike than Misting? In this case coating a bullet with aluminum might not work - too little aluminum.

I very much doubt you'd need a lot. Vin's earring was incredibly small for a spike, but it still held enough of a charge to let her pierce Copperclouds even when she took it out often and for long periods of time, especially before she met Kelsier and he convinced her to start wearing it again. If that tiny charge was enough to withstand all that Hemalurgic Decay and still provide enough extra power to pierce Copperclouds, I can't imagine you'd need too much Aluminum to make it act Hemalurgically. I don't think the amount of metal is that important for removing powers, as long as you have enough for it to act as a spike in general, provided you have the proper Intent. If it does affect it, I think having too little would make your powers weaker/less efficient, rather than something like stopping some powers but not others. So the same amount of metal should do for both Mistings and Mistborn, but if that isn't the case it should still severely hamper the Mistborn's abilities to almost being gone

Edit: Side tangent: Can a Mistborn burn a metal within a metal? Say Vin eats a bead of Bronze encased in a bead of Iron or a bead of Bronze encased in lead. Could she burn the Bronze without disturbing the Iron if she so chose, and could she burn the Bronze through the lead, even though it's not Allomantically viable?

Edited by Underwater_Worldhopper
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Edit: Side tangent: Can a Mistborn burn a metal within a metal? Say Vin eats a bead of Bronze encased in a bead of Iron or a bead of Bronze encased in lead. Could she burn the Bronze without disturbing the Iron if she so chose, and could she burn the Bronze through the lead, even though it's not Allomantically viable?

No, you need to burn the outside metal first. If it's in the lead, you can't burn it at all. There was a WoB about a metal inside a metal, I can't find it now.

Spoiler

Firerust

If a Mistborn were to try and burn a non-valid metal, like platinum or lead, would the metal be burned but nothing happen or would they not be able to burn it at all?

Brandon Sanderson

They would not be able to burn it at all.

Questioner

Not in the slightest?

Brandon Sanderson

Yep. Good question.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/14/2023 at 1:42 PM, alder24 said:

Aluminum itself can't be invested

Aluminum Feruchemy exists

Before you say something about how metalminds aren't invested (WOB)

Spoiler

Questioner

How many smacks would it take from a Shardblade to break, say, a metalmind.

Brandon Sanderson

A metalmind? Depends on how much it's INVESTED.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Aetherbound said:

Aluminum Feruchemy exists

Before you say something about how metalminds aren't invested (WOB)

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

How many smacks would it take from a Shardblade to break, say, a metalmind.

Brandon Sanderson

A metalmind? Depends on how much it's INVESTED.

 

Aluminum Feruchemy might be outlier, it is possibly what is stored simply goes away, and so Aluminum never becomes Invested.
 

Spoiler

Paleo

Does aluminum actually store Identity or is it more like a sink so you just dump it in and it poofs away.

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that for now. Sorry, I want to get into that eventually.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Aetherbound said:

Aluminum Feruchemy exists

Before you say something about how metalminds aren't invested (WOB)

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

How many smacks would it take from a Shardblade to break, say, a metalmind.

Brandon Sanderson

A metalmind? Depends on how much it's INVESTED.

 

Yyyyy I'm not saying that.

The problem is, we don't know what aluminum feruchemy does. It involves identity, yes, but in most cases that we know of it just blanks identity. It might so happen that you don't store your identity in aluminummind, you use it, and it just blanks your identity, and you can't tap it to regain it, or invest it. As long as you "storing" you don't have identity, and there is no charge, it just goes away, then when you stop, you have your identity back, but there is nothing to tap - aluminummind is empty. Similarly how aluminum allomancy works, you burn it and it burns away all your metals in a single moment. In a similar way aluminum spike might work. At this point this is all speculations. It might work like a normal metalmind, but it might be a weird one that just can't be invested, like in every other invested art in Cosmere - aluminum is just a weird metal that does its own thing and generally just can't be invested. Treat this idea as a new possibility, one of many, not something that is true.

Spoiler

Ironeyes

We know aluminum affects mental magic and emotional magic. Would it affect the hole in your soul that’s created by Hemalurgy? If you had an aluminum spike, would that make it easier, less easy, or no difference for Ruin to take control of you?

Brandon Sanderson

Aluminum resists Investiture generally, even when it’s not Invested itself.

Ironeyes

(Brandon hems and haws a little so Ironeyes clarifies the question) Would an aluminum spike make it harder for a Soother to take control of you?

Brandon Sanderson

An aluminum spike would have no effect on a Soother’s ability. They wouldn’t see it there.

yulerule

Did you make aluminum resistant to Allomancy so that you could do the tinfoil hats?

Brandon Sanderson

No, but once I did, I was like that’s a cool idea. I made aluminum resistant to it because I wanted something to be magically inert in the Cosmere. It was a happy accident.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

Warbreaker spoilers in WoB:

Spoiler

Argent

On Nalthis, can aluminum prevent somebody from Returning? So if you kill somebody with aluminum and leave the weapon in them?

Brandon Sanderson

I don't think that's going to be enough. I think that…

Argent

Different way then?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there are totally ways. I don’t think that that’s going to be enough. There's a difference between being inert and blocking Investiture, and actually sucking out Investiture. If you stuck Nightblood inside of a corpse; there are certain things… if you had a larkin or whatever sitting there that ingests the Investiture as it was coming in, that would prevent [Returning]. I think with aluminum you would just have somebody that comes alive with a wound, so maybe... But I think it would just heal around [the aluminum] and you'd just have a spike in you, kind of like Hemalurgy—but not like Hemalurgy. It's inert, but you know what I mean.

Argent

Which suggests you can't actually Awaken aluminum.

Brandon Sanderson

No. It's not going to hold a charge.

Kurkistan

I assume you can't Forge it, either.

Brandon Sanderson

No. In fact the unForgable metal-

Argent

Ralkalest?

Brandon Sanderson

There's an unForgeable metal mentioned.

Kurkistan

Could we call it aluminum if we wanted to?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that aluminum through most cultures was considered a mythological metal, and when people could actually find some, they considered it more valuable than gold, in our culture. So just sayin'...

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yyyyy I'm not saying that.

The problem is, we don't know what aluminum feruchemy does. It involves identity, yes, but in most cases that we know of it just blanks identity. It might so happen that you don't store your identity in aluminummind, you use it, and it just blanks your identity, and you can't tap it to regain it, or invest it. As long as you "storing" you don't have identity, and there is no charge, it just goes away, then when you stop, you have your identity back, but there is nothing to tap - aluminummind is empty. Similarly how aluminum allomancy works, you burn it and it burns away all your metals in a single moment. In a similar way aluminum spike might work. At this point this is all speculations. It might work like a normal metalmind, but it might be a weird one that just can't be invested, like in every other invested art in Cosmere - aluminum is just a weird metal that does its own thing and generally just can't be invested. Treat this idea as a new possibility, one of many, not something that is true.

  Reveal hidden contents

Ironeyes

We know aluminum affects mental magic and emotional magic. Would it affect the hole in your soul that’s created by Hemalurgy? If you had an aluminum spike, would that make it easier, less easy, or no difference for Ruin to take control of you?

Brandon Sanderson

Aluminum resists Investiture generally, even when it’s not Invested itself.

Ironeyes

(Brandon hems and haws a little so Ironeyes clarifies the question) Would an aluminum spike make it harder for a Soother to take control of you?

Brandon Sanderson

An aluminum spike would have no effect on a Soother’s ability. They wouldn’t see it there.

yulerule

Did you make aluminum resistant to Allomancy so that you could do the tinfoil hats?

Brandon Sanderson

No, but once I did, I was like that’s a cool idea. I made aluminum resistant to it because I wanted something to be magically inert in the Cosmere. It was a happy accident.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

Warbreaker spoilers in WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

Argent

On Nalthis, can aluminum prevent somebody from Returning? So if you kill somebody with aluminum and leave the weapon in them?

Brandon Sanderson

I don't think that's going to be enough. I think that…

Argent

Different way then?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there are totally ways. I don’t think that that’s going to be enough. There's a difference between being inert and blocking Investiture, and actually sucking out Investiture. If you stuck Nightblood inside of a corpse; there are certain things… if you had a larkin or whatever sitting there that ingests the Investiture as it was coming in, that would prevent [Returning]. I think with aluminum you would just have somebody that comes alive with a wound, so maybe... But I think it would just heal around [the aluminum] and you'd just have a spike in you, kind of like Hemalurgy—but not like Hemalurgy. It's inert, but you know what I mean.

Argent

Which suggests you can't actually Awaken aluminum.

Brandon Sanderson

No. It's not going to hold a charge.

Kurkistan

I assume you can't Forge it, either.

Brandon Sanderson

No. In fact the unForgable metal-

Argent

Ralkalest?

Brandon Sanderson

There's an unForgeable metal mentioned.

Kurkistan

Could we call it aluminum if we wanted to?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that aluminum through most cultures was considered a mythological metal, and when people could actually find some, they considered it more valuable than gold, in our culture. So just sayin'...

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

Yeah, I’m not sure what you’d even use stored identity for.  A way of being more yourself?  Kinda hard to measure that.  Possibly as a way of resisting being soulcast or forged?  Maybe, but the idea that it’s a one way street isn’t without merit.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Elder said:

Yeah, I’m not sure what you’d even use stored identity for.  A way of being more yourself?  Kinda hard to measure that.  Possibly as a way of resisting being soulcast or forged?  Maybe, but the idea that it’s a one way street isn’t without merit.

Right? It's weird. The only way I see it working, is similar to copperminds - you store it once, and your identity is gone, for some time you have no identity but you slowly start to develop a new one - which you can store again. But identity isn't like that, it's more like a key, token, encryption key that allows you to access investiture that has the same encryption key as you have. 

Spoiler

Paleo

Then we also talked about, theorized about unkeyed metalminds - that is Identity-less ones that anybody can that has the power can tap.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Paleo

We also were wondering is it like, we compared it to cryptography and encryption, stuff like that. Is it just that like, your Identity is sort of this unique encryption key.

Brandon Sanderson

And you need a key to you getting it. That's a valid line of theorizing. It is not exactly but it's close enough to be a good model.

Paleo

And would an unkeyed metalmind theoretically be capable of storing a little more than a keyed one.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, because of yeah.

Paleo

Because it has to... Is it inherent to the Investiture or is it like an extra bit?

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that, mostly because I haven't considered that yet.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...