Non-bladed shard weapons

[Frustration]

So, like many people I have long assumed that non-bladed shard weapons didn't have any special effects.

Then I found this WoB

Spoiler

Questioner

So, the Shardfork. A very versatile, Shard-whatever. Would it be possible to do, like, a Shardrock, or something, that would go in a catapult?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, it has more variety than people would think, but it isn't limitless, what they can become. But that would totally be possible.

Questioner

And what would a Shardrock do if it hits you?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, bean them on the head and be really strong. If you can get into the spirit, if you can start getting past the skin and stuff, you can do some serious damage.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8146

 

 

 

 

Which implies that if the weapon can get inside the body in some way it doesn't need a blade to deal damage, but it isn't specific.

[TheSurvivorofDeath]

Maybe it would just be like blunt force trauma to the spirit web. Like how the Blades cut the spirit instead of the body, the blunt objects smash the soul instead of the body? And maybe it needs to pierce the skin to access the soul like how hemalurgy needs to do the same?

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, TheSurvivorofDeath said:

Maybe it would just be like blunt force trauma to the spirit web. Like how the Blades cut the spirit instead of the body, the blunt objects smash the soul instead of the body?

Spiritweb concussion

That actually might be it.

That could have some interesting ramifications.

3 minutes ago, TheSurvivorofDeath said:

And maybe it needs to pierce the skin to access the soul like how hemalurgy needs to do the same?

My thoughts exactly.

[lacrossedeamon]

This has always confused me because even as a blade it doesn't break the skin (when the target is living) so why does it need to do so for other iterations? I assume that otherwise it makes them too OP so its kinda like speed bubbles not cause redshift but still weird. Anyways shardwire for the win.

[offer]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

So, like many people I have long assumed that non-bladed shard weapons didn't have any special effects.

 

Isn`t the Sylspear works the same as a shardblade?

I assumed that alll shardweapons (including shardfork) work the smae.

[TheSurvivorofDeath]

28 minutes ago, offer said:

Isn`t the Sylspear works the same as a shardblade?

I assumed that alll shardweapons (including shardfork) work the smae.

Sylspear does work the same as a normal Shardblade. We're talking about possible impacts of blunt Shardweapons that don't have Blades to “cut” the soul. Shardfork could cut the soul. I would like to see someone get stabbed with the Shardfork to be honest.

[lacrossedeamon]

1 hour ago, TheSurvivorofDeath said:

Sylspear does work the same as a normal Shardblade. We're talking about possible impacts of blunt Shardweapons that don't have Blades to “cut” the soul. Shardfork could cut the soul. I would like to see someone get stabbed with the Shardfork to be honest.

Spears still have edges but tines on a fork are ostensibly just points. I am also curious to what a puncture wound would do because I feel it would have to be very precise and caliber dependent to actually handicap someone physically. Ramifications on the spiritweb are a different matter. Might be like pseudo hemalurgy.

[Treamayne]

Well, since we know that in Blade form the Shardblade needs to "sever" the spine to kill (eyes burn out when the Shardblade passes through the spinal column/brain stem) or sever the primary nerve to deaden a limb (Hobber's legs' connection to his spiritweb was severed when the Shardblade [Honorblade] passed through his thighs). We also know that Shardblades do not damage or impede the flow of blood through the "severed" limb; which is wht a Blade deadened limb doesn't rot on the body. 

In MtG terms, that could be worded as:

Spoiler

If a shardblade would cut living flesh, it passes though instead. Any body parts controlled by nerves it passes though become Dead. If the spinal card dies this way, the target dies. 

My conclusion: blunt force/impaling damage (hammer/rock/mace) could possibly "sever" a specific muscle if the impact would damage the nerves controlling that muscle then that muscle would likely become deadened. Ex: Shardhammer to the thigh and the Quadriceps becomes deadened, , , 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Treamayne
MtG Ref

[LuckyJim]

I think the important thing is that the shard weapon enters the body. Yes, that's basically what "piercing skin" means, but my though here is that it has to do with Perception. Essentially, the physical body acts as a sort of barrier containing the spiritual body, because most people imagine the soul being contained in the body. Therefore, if a shardweapon is going to have any effect on the spiritual body, it has to go through the physical first.

As for what would happen... maybe its sort of deadening that spreads outward from the point of impact. Like rather than a spiritual limb being severed, it gets crushed.

Also, here's an interesting idea. What if you could get someone to swallow a shard that had been summoned as a small bead?

[The_Milkgod]

Now the question is… shardguitar and or some stringed instrument? Not a weapon but I’m just curious.

Edited February 14, 2023 by The_Milkgod
Added thought/typo

[TheSurvivorofDeath]

27 minutes ago, The_Milkgod said:

Now the question is… shardguitar and or some stringed instrument? Not a weapon but I’m just curious.

You'd need to carry the strings with you since spren can only form a single solid piece.

[The_Milkgod]

42 minutes ago, TheSurvivorofDeath said:

You'd need to carry the strings with you since spren can only form a single solid piece.

That’s what I was wondering about. I wonder if any music produced would have some sort of affect with investiture? I doubt it from my understanding of things.

Edited February 14, 2023 by The_Milkgod
Typo

[lacrossedeamon]

22 minutes ago, TheSurvivorofDeath said:

You'd need to carry the strings with you since spren can only form a single solid piece.

I assume a Spren could form the strings as part of that single solid piece. I’m not sure about the acoustics of a fully metal guitar though.

[The_Milkgod]

1 minute ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I assume a Spren could form the strings as part of that single solid piece. I’m not sure about the acoustics of a fully metal guitar though.

Steel guitars exist. Strings probably wouldn’t be in any type of tuning… although maybe the spren could form it at the right tension.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, The_Milkgod said:

That’s what I was wondering about. I wonder if any music produced would have some sort of affect with investiture? I doubt it fromy understanding of things.

Not necessarily

Spoiler

Ghost2352

Would striking a chime or bell made of a God Metal produce a similar note to that God Metal's corresponding tone?

Brandon Sanderson

Not necessarily.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

 

[The_Milkgod]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Not necessarily

  Hide contents

Ghost2352

Would striking a chime or bell made of a God Metal produce a similar note to that God Metal's corresponding tone?

Brandon Sanderson

Not necessarily.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

 

Unfortunate.

[offer]

Even if a shardguitar wont automatically play the pure tones the spren can probably feel them naturally so if they have good enough control on the shape they are manifesting the probably could change it untill they produce the correct tone.

 

It might take practice for the spren to do this - we don`t see spren that have such fine control of the shape.

Edited February 14, 2023 by offer

[Olmund]

On 2/12/2023 at 11:00 PM, LuckyJim said:

Also, here's an interesting idea. What if you could get someone to swallow a shard that had been summoned as a small bead?

I think something similar to this has been asked before -- can't find the WoB. You're asking because Brandon has decided that godmetals can be burned by anyone, right? ...or at least both Lerasium and Atium. I think that's a silly change to the canon, BTW-- if Lerasium alloys can be burned by anyone, then adding electrum to Atium shouldn't make it unusable. Brandon's just trading one arbitrary decision for another arbitrary decision, imo.

Setting aside my whinging, I'd assume a shardbead couldn't be burned for because with or without a functioning Nahel bond, a shard weapon is not just a bit of solid investiture like a bead of Lerasium -- the sapient spren "fills" the metal which probably makes it (nearly) impossible to burn, just like it would be nearly impossible to use it for hemalurgy:

Questioner

Supposing that a skilled Hemalurgist got hold of some a Shardblade or some Shardplate, how would he best use it assuming that the best way isn't to put it on and kill people with it.

Brandon Sanderson

That's probably the best way, to put it on and kill people with it. I'm not sure why a Hemalurgist would want one more than anyone else would because the metal is already Invested which means its not useful to him.

To be clear, I think a spren can probably be consumed in a manner similar to burning metals -- "unmaking" a spren  (especially one that contains one's own investiture as Sja Anat fears Odium may di to her) might be an example of that -- but it requires so much power/investiture that only a shard could do it. The cracks in a broken soul aren't a big enough void to unmake a spren, but they are big enough to absorb some non-sapient investiture.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

4 hours ago, Olmund said:

If Lerasium alloys can be burned by anyone

This is true?

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

This is true?

Pure god metals can be burned by anybody. God metal alloys can't, like Atium-electrum, which was Era 1 Atium. Lerasium alloys are the only known example of this, as burning them makes you a Misting. However it's important to note that Lerasium effect of making you a Mistborn/Misting it's not its primary effect, and for someone who knows what he's doing, it would have a different effect.

Spoiler

Radix2309

The Atium we experience in Era 1 is actually an alloy of Atium and Electrum called Nalatium. The stuff produced by the pits was naturally an alloy. 

Peter Ahlstrom

The name nalatium is not canon.

Tetrarchon

But what about alloys of lerasium with allomantic metals - can anyone still burn them to become a misting of that metal?

Peter Ahlstrom

Yes.

General Reddit 2022 (Oct. 18, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Thirty-Eight

Preservation's Power

All right, so maybe I lied about there only being three magic systems in this book. It comes down to how you term the powers of Preservation and Ruin, who kind of blanket the entire system. There are a lot of things going on here, and—well, the truth is I don't want to mention all of them, for fear of spoiling future books. However, I'll give you a few rules to apply.

First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power.

Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed.

Preservation's touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn't make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive.

Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation's body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy.

As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn't the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 12, 2009)

 

[Olmund]

On 2/15/2023 at 0:55 PM, alder24 said:

However it's important to note that Lerasium effect of making you a Mistborn/Misting it's not its primary effect, and for someone who knows what he's doing, it would have a different effect.

Whether or not Brandon considers it a side effect (despite what in-world sources believe), it still doesn't change the fact that Brandon decided to rectify what he saw as an inconsistency (everyone can burn Lerasium, but not everyone can burn Atium, despite both being god metals) with a retcon that created yet another inconsistency (if a bit of alloyed metal can interfere with burning Atium, it should block burning Lerasium).

It's not an important point that I'm making -- Brandon's magic systems all have arbitrary decisions in their DNA. I guess I'm still a bit salty hearing about how critical he has become about some of my favorite parts of Mistborn (sign of the 16, etc.) and thus I've become critical of his retcons which I feel are pointless (though once he starts incorporating them as plot points they will cease to have that status).

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Olmund said:

Whether or not Brandon considers it a side effect (despite what in-world sources believe), it still doesn't change the fact that Brandon decided to rectify what he saw as an inconsistency (everyone can burn Lerasium, but not everyone can burn Atium, despite both being god metals) with a retcon that created yet another inconsistency (if a bit of alloyed metal can interfere with burning Atium, it should block burning Lerasium).

I don't think this is an inconsistency as we still don't truly know what Lerasium is doing or any other god metal as well. Lerasium is theorized to produce a strong connection between a person burning it and Preservation in a way no other god metal can do, thus allowing its alloys to be burned by anyone. Atium on the other hand is providing a view into SR. This would be consistent as no other god metal alloys, including Shardblades which are alloys of 2 god metals (Tanavastium and Koravellium), can be burned without proper connection. WoB:

Spoiler

word_thief

What would happen if a Mistborn ingested the metal of a Shardblade/Plate?

Brandon Sanderson

A Shardblade is Invested. A Mistborn isn't likely to have a tie to that type of Investiture. So probably nothing would happen…

General Twitter 2013 (Oct. 24, 2013)

 

[Frustration]

21 minutes ago, Olmund said:

Whether or not Brandon considers it a side effect (despite what in-world sources believe), it still doesn't change the fact that Brandon decided to rectify what he saw as an inconsistency (everyone can burn Lerasium, but not everyone can burn Atium, despite both being god metals) with a retcon that created yet another inconsistency (if a bit of alloyed metal can interfere with burning Atium, it should block burning Lerasium).

It's not an important point that I'm making -- Brandon's magic systems all have arbitrary decisions in their DNA. I guess I'm still a bit salty hearing about how critical he has become about some of my favorite parts of Mistborn (sign of the 16, etc.) and thus I've become critical of his retcons which I feel are pointless (though once he starts incorporating them as plot points they will cease to have that status).

I think it would make you feel better that this retcon is a lot older than you think.

Spoiler

/u/AAKS_

My understanding is that Brandon thinks it is a plothole that Lerasium can be burned by Scadrian (regardless of if they are mistings/mistborn) but Atium can't.

His solution is to retcon the Pits to naturally produce an Atium/Electrum alloy, presumably by the design of Preservation. Therefore we don't know what pure Atium looks like or does when used in any magic.

Peter Ahlstrom

We do know what it does. It’s on the Allomancy poster, and the effect appeared one time at the end of Hero of Ages.

LewsTherinTelescope

Interesting. Do you know if he had already conceived the retcon by the time the poster was written, or if that line about pure atium just turned out to fit really well retroactively?

Peter Ahlstrom

The retcon is way older than a lot of people assume.

LewsTherinTelescope

Does this mean he had it in mind by the time Hero of Ages released (since the first public version of the poster dates to 2008), or just that it's old but not sure exactly how old?

Peter Ahlstrom

Remember that what's in the books is filtered through the understanding of the characters. So even if Brandon planned it from the beginning, if the characters didn't know about it, it's not going to come out in the book.

And see this thread reply from 2009.

Footnote: The link is to a post on the Timewaster's Guide forums, where Peter responds to someone asking about whether atium is an alloy by saying he now knows enough to confirm or deny the theory, but is not allowed to.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/486/#e15955

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So it's possible that it has been this way since before the release of HoA

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah I was really surprised to see that, but in hindsight it makes a lot of sense. Marsh does tell Vin in TFE that the two "high metals" - atium and gold - share a pulse pattern just like the four physical metals and the four mental metals. With the full Allomantic table, that means that atium had to share the temporal quadrant pulse pattern.

That is really why I ended up liking the retcon - imo it actually fits better with the existence of Seers (they were really just electrum mistings) and the fact that a thousand years of Seekers didn't notice that atium's pulse was super weird. Because it wasn't - the atium they knew was really a temporal alloy.

If it was decided around the time HoA was being finalized and the Allomantic table came out, I'm not sure its even really a retcon in the usual sense.

Though if it was decided by 2008/09 I don't know what the old WoBs about "swapping out" atium/malatium mistings meant.

Edited February 19, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[LuckyJim]

On 2/15/2023 at 9:48 AM, Olmund said:

I think something similar to this has been asked before -- can't find the WoB. You're asking because Brandon has decided that godmetals can be burned by anyone, right? ...or at least both Lerasium and Atium. I think that's a silly change to the canon, BTW-- if Lerasium alloys can be burned by anyone, then adding electrum to Atium shouldn't make it unusable. Brandon's just trading one arbitrary decision for another arbitrary decision, imo.

I'm more wondering if it could potentially be weaponized. Like if you could use a shardbead as a sort of spiritual poison.