Hemalurgy and Compounding

[Trusk'our]

In The Lost Metal, Marsh states that Identity contamination prevents the Set from compounding. I wonder, then, if you could overcome this limitation by having the donor blank their Identity via Unsealed Aluminumminds, or via a Hemalurigc spike.

This also makes me wonder why it is that Marsh can compound, even though he doesn't (presumably) have Identityless spikes. Did Hemalurgic spikes just permeate the Spiriweb more in Ancient times, and now the spikes are more "contained" within their separate Identities?

I know that we have the Ars. Arcanum, but I'm just curious about the mechanics of Hemalurgy's change, and how they can be overcome by a clever individual (not that I personally claim to be such an individual, just a curious one).

[gremlin303]

It could be just the weakening of Hemalurgy that is the cause, as explained in the Lost Metal’s Ars Arcanum

[Trusk'our]

16 hours ago, gremlin303 said:

It could be just the weakening of Hemalurgy that is the cause, as explained in the Lost Metal’s Ars Arcanum

Well, yes, but I mean why is it weaker now, mechanically speaking? Because if you understand why something is, you can then take steps to change it according to your desires.

[Honorless]

I'm for the theory that it isn't any weaker now at all, it was just stronger back then because Ruin was pushing through more power from the other side

[Trusk'our]

21 hours ago, Honorless said:

I'm for the theory that it isn't any weaker now at all, it was just stronger back then because Ruin was pushing through more power from the other side

I know that this is a rather nit-picky opinion of mine, but doesn't saying that "Hemalurgy was stronger back then" and "Hemalurgy is weaker now" mean basically the same thing?

[Honorless]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

I know that this is a rather nit-picky opinion of mine, but doesn't saying that "Hemalurgy was stronger back then" and "Hemalurgy is weaker now" mean basically the same thing?

How... dare...

just kidding, we all nitpick here

I'd say no, it's not the same thing because there are three values: Hemalurgy at its normal strength, Hemalurgy at higher than normal strength and Hemalurgy at lower than normal strength; and I'm saying that I think the transition was from the second to first rather than first to third.

It's a significant difference story wise too, I'm saying Ruin was affecting Hemalurgy back then, and Harmony hasn't weakened Hemalurgy

(I’m drawing a blank character-wise for why he'd make that decision except that maybe he can't do that level of overhaul to a magic system, or he's Preserving that system that lets Ruin perpetuate – or something along those lines, that it's because of his Intent)

[Trusk'our]

3 minutes ago, Honorless said:

How... dare...

just kidding, we all nitpick here

Hee, hee  

3 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I'd say no, it's not the same thing because there are three values: Hemalurgy at its normal strength, Hemalurgy at higher than normal strength and Hemalurgy at lower than normal strength; and I'm saying that I think the transition was from the second to first rather than first to third.

It's a significant difference story wise too, I'm saying Ruin was affecting Hemalurgy back then, and Harmony hasn't weakened Hemalurgy

Okay, that makes a lot more sense: Ruin was making his system stronger back when he was fighting Preservation and now that Ruin isn't fighting Preservation, the system is cooling down and returning to normal levels (I wonder if it was a byproduct of the Ruin/Preservation conflict, or an active pressure brought on by the Vessel?).

I bet that Preservation creating more Allomancers via the Mists was his version of enhancing his system - which we also don't see in modern Scadrial.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 2/7/2023 at 9:25 AM, Honorless said:

stronger back then because Ruin was pushing through more power

On 2/8/2023 at 9:18 AM, Trusk'our said:

Ruin was making his system stronger

I don't think Ati would have been directly powering hemalurgy the way Pres powered Vin, but he could have. We know that Ati was causing more/larger holes in peoples souls, which had an effect.

On 2/6/2023 at 8:50 AM, Trusk'our said:

overcome this limitation

It can also be overcome by blanking identity while filling the metalmind - this is my largest (albeit small) problem with the second and third E1 books. Wether aluminum can blank the spikes while filling is unknown, but I assume so.

[Trusk'our]

12 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

It can also be overcome by blanking identity while filling the metalmind - this is my largest (albeit small) problem with the second and third E1 books. Wether aluminum can blank the spikes while filling is unknown, but I assume so.

I believe that it would, as when an individual blanks their Identity and fills a Metalmind, the Investiture that can later be tapped is also devoid of any Identity. The same principle should apply to Hemalurgy.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

32 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I believe that it would, as when an individual blanks their Identity and fills a Metalmind, the Investiture that can later be tapped is also devoid of any Identity. The same principle should apply to Hemalurgy.

I don't mean when making the spike, I mean filling aluminum and another metalmind when spiked regularly. I agree with the idea of filling aluminum while charging a spike

[Trusk'our]

53 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I don't mean when making the spike, I mean filling aluminum and another metalmind when spiked regularly. I agree with the idea of filling aluminum while charging a spike

Ah. So you mean that the Hemalurgist - the one with the charged spikes implanted into their body - would blank their Identity, and that would allow the spikes to function normally?

[IlstrawberrySeed]

5 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Ah. So you mean that the Hemalurgist - the one with the charged spikes implanted into their body - would blank their Identity, and that would allow the spikes to function normally?

Normally may not be the right term. However, the idea is that anyone can compound an unkeyed (?) metalmind. It might be possible for someone to blank their allomantic identity to access a keyed metalmind, but I doubt it. If you blank fuerochemical identity while filling a metalmind, then it doesn't matter that the identity of the allomancer isn't the same as the one that filled it. If Sazed filled aluminum and X, then Vin & co could have semi-compounded by burning the X.

Edited February 9, 2023 by IlstrawberrySeed

[lacrossedeamon]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:50 AM, Trusk'our said:

In The Lost Metal, Marsh states that Identity contamination prevents the Set from compounding. I wonder, then, if you could overcome this limitation by having the donor blank their Identity via Unsealed Aluminumminds, or via a Hemalurigc spike.

This also makes me wonder why it is that Marsh can compound, even though he doesn't (presumably) have Identityless spikes. Did Hemalurgic spikes just permeate the Spiriweb more in Ancient times, and now the spikes are more "contained" within their separate Identities?

I know that we have the Ars. Arcanum, but I'm just curious about the mechanics of Hemalurgy's change, and how they can be overcome by a clever individual (not that I personally claim to be such an individual, just a curious one).

Might be a side effect of Sazed consciously suppressing Ruin's Intent and Marsh was just grandfathered in having been created under the old system. So the only way to overcome it is let Sazed himself be overcome.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

On 09/02/2023 at 7:51 PM, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Normally may not be the right term. However, the idea is that anyone can compound an unkeyed (?) metalmind.

[So if the Feruchemist stores Identity while making Metalminds, they could let any relevant Allomancer access Feruchemy in a limited way by letting them burn Unkeyed Metalminds]*

If Sazed filled aluminum and X, then Vin & co could have semi-compounded by burning the X.

*I rephrased what was said for clairty because it took me quite a few rereads to figure out what was trying to be communicated.

If they have the relevant Allomantic power, then absolutely, but their control over it would be very obtuse. Vin, for example, couldn't make herself only as strong as she'd need to, she can only burn or flare her metals (with some very small wiggle room for burning metals lightly) so she would have to find a way to utilise only exactly as much Attribute burning/flaring would give her.

So if she burned an unkeyed Pewtermind, she would have to make do with however much bulk that gives her (Let's say +100% while burning, +250% when flaring [not meant to be accurate, just demonstrating]), regardless of if its more or less than she needs.

It still is a way for Non-Feruchemists to make use of Feruchemical attributes though, and they do have some limited control of it depending on which metals they burn and whether or not they flare them instead of regular burning, so it's still a useful thing to keep in mind.

It's sad they never let Sazed experiment with Aluminium once they realised it was Allomantic, it could have lead to all sorts of Feruchemical shenanigans for Vin and Elend, not to mention giving the Northerners a 300 year headstart on Feruchemical Magictec.

On 09/02/2023 at 7:51 PM, IlstrawberrySeed said:

It might be possible for someone to blank their allomantic identity to access a keyed metalmind, but I doubt it.

Not possible. Trying to access someone else's Metalminds is like trying to open a lock with the wrong key, having no key at all isn't going to get you any closer to the contents. You couldn't even access your own Keyed Metalminds while storing Identity.

Overall, your idea has merit for giving Allomancers an extra edge. If they get their hands on Identity Medallions, Feruchemists could sell Unkeyed Metalmind beads to Allomancers specifically made for the purpose. Allomancers could carry them to burn in a pinch to access Feruchemical attributes, like a Rioter carrying a Zincmind bead and burning it in an emergency for speed of thought, a Coinshot carrying Physical Speed beads, etc. That could become its own little market (economy? I'm not sure what the right word here is, I just mean it could become a bunch of businesses competing to sell Feruchemy to Allomancers).

It doesn't apply to proper compounding though, and not to Hemalurgy at all.

[alder24]

30 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

If they have the relevant Allomantic power, then absolutely, but their control over it would be very obtuse. Vin, for example, couldn't make herself only as strong as she'd need to, she can only burn or flare her metals (with some very small wiggle room for burning metals lightly) so she would have to find a way to utilise only exactly as much Attribute burning/flaring would give her.

You can do more than burn and flare, you can burn in between normal burn up to flare, and even burn less than normal burn. WoB:

Spoiler

Seonid

Is the level of burning a continuous distribution, can I burn 0.1 level of steel all the way up to flaring? Or is it just I burn or I flare?

Brandon Sanderson

The more skilled you are, the more you have the ability to moderate that. For most people it is burn or flare. But you can kind of burn up to a flare, does that make sense? Going below is really hard.

Seonid

Can you push a flare?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

You can do more than burn and flare, you can burn in between normal burn up to flare, and even burn less than normal burn. WoB:

  Hide contents

Seonid

Is the level of burning a continuous distribution, can I burn 0.1 level of steel all the way up to flaring? Or is it just I burn or I flare?

Brandon Sanderson

The more skilled you are, the more you have the ability to moderate that. For most people it is burn or flare. But you can kind of burn up to a flare, does that make sense? Going below is really hard.

Seonid

Can you push a flare?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)

 

True, but most people wouldn't be skilled enough to do more than push a flare, and in this case burning between a normal burn and a flare isn't that useful. What would really work here would be burning under a flare, but that's very hard to do and so should be considered impossible for the general populace. Individually though, that would be something people who use this kind of compounding would benefit a lot from by learning

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

True, but most people wouldn't be skilled enough to do more than push a flare, and in this case burning between a normal burn and a flare isn't that useful. What would really work here would be burning under a flare, but that's very hard to do and so should be considered impossible for the general populace. Individually though, that would be something people who use this kind of compounding would benefit a lot from by learning

Intent plays a big role in what you can do. And now, the spread of information is far faster and greater than it used to be under the Final Empire. Metalborn just knowing that they can do something will help them do it. Like compounding - inquisitors under Ruin's control didn't figure out compounding because they were lacking correct intent. Now there are people like Miles who just do this. Allomancy is evolving into wider power applications. With bronze people now are able to detect Feruchemy, because they know it exists and they know they can do it, even if it’s harder. Powers will get stronger, because of the spread of knowledge and intent. If some people learn on their own that they can control their burn rate in a greater range, they will pass this knowledge to other Allomancers, who would have an easier time figuring it out on their own. And after a few decades, this will be just a common thing. I'm not saying it will happen soon, but in the future.

The WoBs about powers evolving over time:

Spoiler

Questioner

Also speaking of continutiy...

Brandon Sanderson

Uh oh. 

Questioner

This is a very very minor spoiler. It's just a statement that was made in Alloy of Law, that Smokers could...

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, that was just a typo

Questioner

Is that going to change things?

Brandon Sanderson

Wait, go ahead and say it.

Questioner

Can Copperclouds shield others' emotions?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh okay. Did we put that in Alloy of Law in the Ars Arcanum? Is that where you read it?

Questioner

I forget. I don't remember where it is.

Brandon Sanderson

I believe it’s in the Ars Arcanum, which in Alloy of Law was put together by Peter. And that’s mostly a mistake, though the thing is the Role Playing Game came to me and said “Is it feasible that this could happen?” And I said “It’s perhaps feasible, but only a very rare individual could make this work if they knew exactly what they were doing.” And so I said “Yeah, go ahead, but make it a power that someone really has to know what they’re doing to make it work.” And so they put it in, and so Peter assumed that it was canon, that anyone can do it, but that’s not what I intended.

Questioner

So would it be easier to say that somebody discovered they could do it and now they are training copperclouds to do it?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that it is viable that someone could figure it out, but it would be a very difficult thing to train, and it is not a common Coppercloud—A common Coppercloud isn’t going to be able to be doing it, and almost no Mistborn will ever be capable of doing it, they just don’t focus on that metal enough to learn it. Of course, there aren’t Mistborn around anymore. So it is a possible power, it is plausible, but it is not the standard. Perhaps I will allow it to become the standard eventually, but it’s not right now. It would be much easier to wear a tinfoil hat. (laughter) Aluminum, aluminum. Which does work.

West Jordan signing (Dec. 15, 2011)

 

Spoiler

Argent

Mechanically speaking, how does steelsight work? The scientific definition of "metal" gets a little murky in the middle of the periodic table-

Brandon Sanderson

It does.

Argent

-and we see that powerful enough Allomancers can see more than just metals.

Brandon Sanderson

Yep.

Argent

Are Connection and perception significantly involved here?

Brandon Sanderson

To an extent, but the science of it also is. I feel like the stronger steelsight is getting, the more it is detecting things like electromagnetic bonds and even, you know, the strong and weak force and some of these sorts of things that is just in everything, right? And I do think that in strongest applications, Allomancy is going to be moving beyond metals and moving toward things like fundamental forces. So there you go.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

43 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Intent plays a big role in what you can do. And now, the spread of information is far faster and greater than it used to be under the Final Empire. Metalborn just knowing that they can do something will help them do it. Like compounding - inquisitors under Ruin's control didn't figure out compounding because they were lacking correct intent. Now there are people like Miles who just do this. Allomancy is evolving into wider power applications. With bronze people now are able to detect Feruchemy, because they know it exists and they know they can do it, even if it’s harder. Powers will get stronger, because of the spread of knowledge and intent. If some people learn on their own that they can control their burn rate in a greater range, they will pass this knowledge to other Allomancers, who would have an easier time figuring it out on their own. And after a few decades, this will be just a common thing. I'm not saying it will happen soon, but in the future.

The WoBs about powers evolving over time:

  Hide contents

Questioner

Also speaking of continutiy...

Brandon Sanderson

Uh oh. 

Questioner

This is a very very minor spoiler. It's just a statement that was made in Alloy of Law, that Smokers could...

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, that was just a typo

Questioner

Is that going to change things?

Brandon Sanderson

Wait, go ahead and say it.

Questioner

Can Copperclouds shield others' emotions?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh okay. Did we put that in Alloy of Law in the Ars Arcanum? Is that where you read it?

Questioner

I forget. I don't remember where it is.

Brandon Sanderson

I believe it’s in the Ars Arcanum, which in Alloy of Law was put together by Peter. And that’s mostly a mistake, though the thing is the Role Playing Game came to me and said “Is it feasible that this could happen?” And I said “It’s perhaps feasible, but only a very rare individual could make this work if they knew exactly what they were doing.” And so I said “Yeah, go ahead, but make it a power that someone really has to know what they’re doing to make it work.” And so they put it in, and so Peter assumed that it was canon, that anyone can do it, but that’s not what I intended.

Questioner

So would it be easier to say that somebody discovered they could do it and now they are training copperclouds to do it?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that it is viable that someone could figure it out, but it would be a very difficult thing to train, and it is not a common Coppercloud—A common Coppercloud isn’t going to be able to be doing it, and almost no Mistborn will ever be capable of doing it, they just don’t focus on that metal enough to learn it. Of course, there aren’t Mistborn around anymore. So it is a possible power, it is plausible, but it is not the standard. Perhaps I will allow it to become the standard eventually, but it’s not right now. It would be much easier to wear a tinfoil hat. (laughter) Aluminum, aluminum. Which does work.

West Jordan signing (Dec. 15, 2011)

 

  Hide contents

Argent

Mechanically speaking, how does steelsight work? The scientific definition of "metal" gets a little murky in the middle of the periodic table-

Brandon Sanderson

It does.

Argent

-and we see that powerful enough Allomancers can see more than just metals.

Brandon Sanderson

Yep.

Argent

Are Connection and perception significantly involved here?

Brandon Sanderson

To an extent, but the science of it also is. I feel like the stronger steelsight is getting, the more it is detecting things like electromagnetic bonds and even, you know, the strong and weak force and some of these sorts of things that is just in everything, right? And I do think that in strongest applications, Allomancy is going to be moving beyond metals and moving toward things like fundamental forces. So there you go.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

 

Huh. Good point, I hadn't considered that. Makes me even more excited to read Era 3

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 4/30/2023 at 2:04 PM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

*I rephrased what was said for clairty because it took me quite a few rereads to figure out what was trying to be communicated.

If they have the relevant Allomantic power, then absolutely, but their control over it would be very obtuse. Vin, for example, couldn't make herself only as strong as she'd need to, she can only burn or flare her metals (with some very small wiggle room for burning metals lightly) so she would have to find a way to utilise only exactly as much Attribute burning/flaring would give her.

So if she burned an unkeyed Pewtermind, she would have to make do with however much bulk that gives her (Let's say +100% while burning, +250% when flaring [not meant to be accurate, just demonstrating]), regardless of if its more or less than she needs.

It still is a way for Non-Feruchemists to make use of Feruchemical attributes though, and they do have some limited control of it depending on which metals they burn and whether or not they flare them instead of regular burning, so it's still a useful thing to keep in mind.

It's sad they never let Sazed experiment with Aluminium once they realised it was Allomantic, it could have lead to all sorts of Feruchemical shenanigans for Vin and Elend, not to mention giving the Northerners a 300 year headstart on Feruchemical Magictec.

Not possible. Trying to access someone else's Metalminds is like trying to open a lock with the wrong key, having no key at all isn't going to get you any closer to the contents. You couldn't even access your own Keyed Metalminds while storing Identity.

Overall, your idea has merit for giving Allomancers an extra edge. If they get their hands on Identity Medallions, Feruchemists could sell Unkeyed Metalmind beads to Allomancers specifically made for the purpose. Allomancers could carry them to burn in a pinch to access Feruchemical attributes, like a Rioter carrying a Zincmind bead and burning it in an emergency for speed of thought, a Coinshot carrying Physical Speed beads, etc. That could become its own little market (economy? I'm not sure what the right word here is, I just mean it could become a bunch of businesses competing to sell Feruchemy to Allomancers).

It doesn't apply to proper compounding though, and not to Hemalurgy at all.

Thanks for the rephrase, and other than the extra control, there are 2 things.

1: I only brought up the identity-less allomancer burning other's metalminds because a similar thing was theorized by Wax and Co in BoM. I personally disagree with it as well.

2: If an allomancer can burned unkeyed metalminds made by someone else, why couldn't a hemalurgic allomancer burn an unkeyed metalmind made by someone else? And if they could, why couldn't they burn unkeyed metalminds they made?

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

22 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Thanks for the rephrase, and other than the extra control, there are 2 things.

1: I only brought up the identity-less allomancer burning other's metalminds because a similar thing was theorized by Wax and Co in BoM. I personally disagree with it as well.

2: If an allomancer can burned unkeyed metalminds made by someone else, why couldn't a hemalurgic allomancer burn an unkeyed metalmind made by someone else? And if they could, why couldn't they burn unkeyed metalminds they made?

1. Ah, alright. We had a conversation about this after that message was posted about using Identity to access Metalminds in the Twinborn Combos thread, and we decided that it might actually be possible through some finagling, we just don't have enough to go on right now to decidedly say whether or not you could (Although it does seem to lean towards no)

2. So, Compounding is no longer possible with Hemalurgy in Era 2, so it's entirely possible they just couldn't get a Feruchemical attribute by Burning a Metalmind. It's unclear whether not being able to get a Feruchemical charge by burning extends to (Unkeyed) Metalminds made by others, but at the very least it applies to Metalminds you make yourself. Also, for Metalminds you make yourself, you wouldn't need to Unkey them, since they would already be Keyed to you. Potentially, Metalminds made by a Hemalurgist might not be able to be burned for Feruchemy by natural Allomancers/Twinborn either, depending on what the mechanics of the No Hemalurgic Compounding end up being. Hope that clears it up!

[IlstrawberrySeed]

13 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

1. Ah, alright. We had a conversation about this after that message was posted about using Identity to access Metalminds in the Twinborn Combos thread, and we decided that it might actually be possible through some finagling, we just don't have enough to go on right now to decidedly say whether or not you could (Although it does seem to lean towards no)

2. So, Compounding is no longer possible with Hemalurgy in Era 2, so it's entirely possible they just couldn't get a Feruchemical attribute by Burning a Metalmind. It's unclear whether not being able to get a Feruchemical charge by burning extends to (Unkeyed) Metalminds made by others, but at the very least it applies to Metalminds you make yourself. Also, for Metalminds you make yourself, you wouldn't need to Unkey them, since they would already be Keyed to you. Potentially, Metalminds made by a Hemalurgist might not be able to be burned for Feruchemy by natural Allomancers/Twinborn either, depending on what the mechanics of the No Hemalurgic Compounding end up being. Hope that clears it up!

2. The reason is identity interference, from the spikes. Whether it's interference on the filling and/or the burning side, we don't know, but it being unkeyed means no identity can interfere. If it's only the burning side, you could fill normally and burn while blanking as well.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

Just now, IlstrawberrySeed said:

2. The reason is identity interference, from the spikes. Whether it's interference on the filling and/or the burning side, we don't know, but it being unkeyed means no identity can interfere. If it's only the burning side, you could fill normally and burn while blanking as well.

Sounds familiar, but I'm not sure. Do you have any sources?

[IlstrawberrySeed]

3 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Sounds familiar, but I'm not sure. Do you have any sources?

Not on me, I'll look it up in the arcanum when I've got a second, but I have to go now.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

1 minute ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Not on me, I'll look it up in the arcanum when I've got a second, but I have to go now.

No problem, I'll look through the Arcanum and see what I can find

[alder24]

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

2. The reason is identity interference, from the spikes. Whether it's interference on the filling and/or the burning side, we don't know, but it being unkeyed means no identity can interfere. If it's only the burning side, you could fill normally and burn while blanking as well.

The Hemalurgist has 2 identities, one of his own, the second one from his spike, where his power comes from. I think this is what messes up with his compounding. Simply burning an unkeyed metalmind won't work. If he were to burn his own metalmind, it's still in conflict with spike's identity or his own. He would need to blank the identity of the spike. All of this is very speculative for now.