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So... Oath 5?


Frustration

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There have been several discussions about what benefits the fifth oath give the Radiant, and every time I've wanted to say something. But I didn't because I could never find the WoB that gave me the idea again.

I searched so many times, over the span of years for this one stinking WoB, and could never find it.

Until today.

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

Where did you get your ideas for knights?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A knight has a sword, armor and a horse.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/157/#e2858

 

 

 

At 3rd oath the knight gets a sword.

At 4th they get armor.

And at fifth, they get some kind of mount.

 

This is further supported by the Knights Radiant having the only Rhyshadium in the past(WoR 317).

 

So what do you think?

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So they form a bond with Ryshadium? For Windrunners it seems a bit useless? We have it foreshadowed with plate and lesser sprens but with a mount there was nothing so far. No Radiant, except Dalinar, is close to Ryshadium, and they are sapient enough to choose their own rider. But, from Coppermind "They are often referred to as "the third Shard" in addition to a Shardblade and Shardplate." OB ch 10.

However Notum in RoW was riding on some kind of majestic spren so maybe they do bond some spren, and maybe that's only in CR to allow for easier transportation? 

 

And just a note, I would be very grateful if you also put the chapter number with the source so that it can be easily found in other language versions of the books.

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I am 100% on board with this!

 

The only counter argument is that (doylistically) he might consider it satisfied with the cultural statement from (I want to say) WoK that the Alethi considered Rhyshadium to be the third Shard, but that it's not literal and/or historic. 

However, the Rhyshadium are the only example we have of a clearly earth/human biome creature evolving a Gemheart, and the closest example we have of that sort of breeding/genetic change is Radiant eye color making Lighteye bloodlines.  It would make sense if both stem from the Investiture saturation that the Radiant package provides.  And it would be fitting for them to empower an animal mount in a world were most of the creatures have that special gem-organ for magic augmentation.  

Do you think they get augmented with pure investiture and develops into the Gemheart, or do you think they get a Gem implanted or fed to them like Yelig-nar.

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Frus, this find is brilliant, even if Sanderson doesn't end up using it. I actually had a discussion with some friends of mine a while (year+) ago about how I was disappointed that we've never seen the idea of a mounted Knight Radiant.

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

However, the Rhyshadium are the only example we have of a clearly earth/human biome creature evolving a Gemheart, and the closest example we have of that sort of breeding/genetic change is Radiant eye color making Lighteye bloodlines.  It would make sense if both stem from the Investiture saturation that the Radiant package provides.  And it would be fitting for them to empower an animal mount in a world were most of the creatures have that special gem-organ for magic augmentation.  

Do you think they get augmented with pure investiture and develops into the Gemheart, or do you think they get a Gem implanted or fed to them like Yelig-nar.

You've got me thinking now, Quantus, what if the fifth oath lets Radiants send their spren, possibly their greater spren, possibly their lesser spren, into a creature's gemheart to empower that creature with surges, and then use it as a mount? Though with that line of thinking, I suppose a Knight could always send their lesser spren to cover a ryshadium as barding. No one can deny that a giant horse in shardplate would be beyond awesome.

As for us having never seen indications of this happening in the past, it is probably fair to say that 5th order Radiants have been exceptionally rare throughout history, and it might even be that some of them never had the time or opportunity to discover the mounted bonus of the 5th oath. But I agree that it would have been cool to see some foreshadowing if their is the next step. Though Sanderson is famous for giving us foreshadowing that we don't realize is foreshadowing until several books later.

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25 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And just a note, I would be very grateful if you also put the chapter number with the source so that it can be easily found in other language versions of the books.

Sorry, I don't actually source these from the books directly, I have a PM that I filled with notes and take my information from there. And when I made them I only wrote down page numbers, so I don't have access to the chapters, at least not as easily. I'll try and add this one later as I remember that it was the chapter where Kaladin rides horses.

Edit: @alder24 chapter 25

24 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I am 100% on board with this!

Why thank you.

24 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Do you think they get augmented with pure investiture and develops into the Gemheart, or do you think they get a Gem implanted or fed to them like Yelig-nar.

I lean more towards the spren inhabiting a preexisting gemheart. Similar to what Tumi was doing with the cremlings in RoW. Which would be the foreshadowing that @HSuperLee mentioned. But whether that means that they form the gemheart in the creature, I have no idea.

14 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

Frus, this find is brilliant, even if Sanderson doesn't end up using it.

Thank :)

14 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

You've got me thinking now, Quantus, what if the fifth oath lets Radiants send their spren, possibly their greater spren, possibly their lesser spren, into a creature's gemheart to empower that creature with surges, and then use it as a mount?

My thoughts exactly.

Edited by Frustration
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8 hours ago, alder24 said:

So they form a bond with Ryshadium? For Windrunners it seems a bit useless? We have it foreshadowed with plate and lesser sprens but with a mount there was nothing so far. No Radiant, except Dalinar, is close to Ryshadium, and they are sapient enough to choose their own rider. But, from Coppermind "They are often referred to as "the third Shard" in addition to a Shardblade and Shardplate." OB ch 10.

Considering Ryshadium are sapient, I don't think even for a windrunner their useless. Giant sapient horses would definitely be helpful in combat. Even more so if they can benefit from their radiant's surges at all.

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It does seem like the Windrunners are really the combat Radiants. I don't really see what a horse can do to help no matter how sapient. Since even if the horse can access the same surges and can fly... the advantage that cavalry has on the ground is pretty much nullified when flying. Since you can maneuver in all directions and thus can easily avoid a charge. 

Also, if the 5th ideal grants a bond with a Ryshadium or similar... then why are Ryshadium forming bonds with non radiants? 

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4 hours ago, RaeTheRaven said:

Also, if the 5th ideal grants a bond with a Ryshadium or similar... then why are Ryshadium forming bonds with non radiants? 

The same could be said of Shardblades and plate.

4 hours ago, RaeTheRaven said:

It does seem like the Windrunners are really the combat Radiants. I don't really see what a horse can do to help no matter how sapient. Since even if the horse can access the same surges and can fly... the advantage that cavalry has on the ground is pretty much nullified when flying. Since you can maneuver in all directions and thus can easily avoid a charge. 

That is true, but I don't think the bond is necessarily always with a Ryshadium. Just that Ryshadium were either commonly used, or created because of the bond. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that some knights chose creatures like chulls, whitespines, or Lanceryn.

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22 hours ago, Frustration said:

At 3rd oath the knight gets a sword.

At 4th they get armor.

And at fifth, they get some kind of mount.

Agreed, it's simple, brilliant, and so very Brandon.

22 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

Sanderson is famous for giving us foreshadowing that we don't realize is foreshadowing until several books later.

He just never seems to stop, does he?  It's honestly superhuman.

4 hours ago, RaeTheRaven said:

I don't really see what a horse can do to help no matter how sapient.

So you are making the argument that an intelligent, armored, flying, surgebinding STORMING HORSE would be of no use to anyone in combat?  I'll agree that the benefit might be greater to the orders of Radiants who can't already fly themselves... but hells yeah I'll take half a ton of smart magic-using help on my team no matter what.  Plus, Frus didn't say "horse", he said "mount".  Maybe Windrunners get larkins:  

Quote

The larkin are associated with the Knights Radiant, though the specifics of their connection remain a mystery.

4 hours ago, RaeTheRaven said:

Also, if the 5th ideal grants a bond with a Ryshadium or similar... then why are Ryshadium forming bonds with non radiants? 

It might be more rusting foreshadowing... like the way deadeye spren can be used by regular people.  Yet another modern example of a lesser version of something that was truly awesome in the past (and will be again).  Brandon is always saying things like "the Investiture has an Intent, it keeps trying to find ways to express itself."

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If this is true, maybe Lifts bonded creature will be her new “chicken.”

So, is it the radiant Spren who lives in the gem heart of the bonded creature?  Will we be Sylphrena possessing a some sort of creature?

the 5th ideal is also some sort of point of no return for the bond, according to Notem.  If that’s because the Spren has become some sort of creature in the physical realm, that makes sense.

EDIT: NVM, the Spren’s physical form IX the blade.  So it’s probably some other Spren in the bonded creature’s gemheart

Edited by Elder
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5 hours ago, Frustration said:

The same could be said of Shardblades and plate.

Yes, but those are dead spren. And they're the same spren that at one point were bonded with a Radiant and are now just a pale imitation of what they were. Ryshadium are living, breathing beings that live and die like regular horses. And they form bonds with people just like regular horses (although they're more intelligent, so the bond is stronger). I guess at most one could argue that Ryshadium may be descended from whatever horses they had.

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

That is true, but I don't think the bond is necessarily always with a Ryshadium. Just that Ryshadium were either commonly used, or created because of the bond. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that some knights chose creatures like chulls, whitespines, or Lanceryn.

 True. 

5 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

So you are making the argument that an intelligent, armored, flying, surgebinding STORMING HORSE would be of no use to anyone in combat?  I'll agree that the benefit might be greater to the orders of Radiants who can't already fly themselves... but hells yeah I'll take half a ton of smart magic-using help on my team no matter what.  Plus, Frus didn't say "horse", he said "mount".  Maybe Windrunners get larkins:  

I mean... yeah actually I am making that argument. I wouldn't say no use, but... not a whole lot of use. Horses are not designed to fly. They would not be particularly agile in the air because they're too bulky. Humans are... more aerodynamically shaped and also the way our skeleton is jointed gives us much more freedom of movement than a horse could ever achieve. 

Also, just thinking from the perspective of storytelling... I honestly would find a horse. Or any bonded flesh and blood creature... a bit of a hindrance. It would kind of create unnecessary complications (I.e. the characters would have to meet the creature's needs) for a gain that... is not really necessary to the characters or story (as far as I can see) and is... more just cool than actually useful. Look for example at the actual Ryshadium we see. They're mostly absent past the Everstorm because... they'd just be a hindrance to storytelling. Giving them surges would make them a bit less of a hindrance, but I just don't see what it would add besides "Wow, that's so cool!"

So... if I were writing this, it's not the direction I would go. But of course, I'm not writing this so he may. I'm not saying it's not possible. I just don't think it's likely. It would be cool though. 

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On 1/30/2023 at 11:10 AM, Frustration said:

There have been several discussions about what benefits the fifth oath give the Radiant, and every time I've wanted to say something. But I didn't because I could never find the WoB that gave me the idea again.

I searched so many times, over the span of years for this one stinking WoB, and could never find it.

Until today.

  Hide contents

Questioner (paraphrased)

Where did you get your ideas for knights?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A knight has a sword, armor and a horse.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/157/#e2858

 

 

 

At 3rd oath the knight gets a sword.

At 4th they get armor.

And at fifth, they get some kind of mount.

 

This is further supported by the Knights Radiant having the only Rhyshadium in the past(WoR 317).

 

So what do you think?

I think a lot of people have had this idea.  The mention of Radiant's having Rhyshadium in WoR when I first read it was what made me agree with it, but there are subtle hints. Adolin mentions that Gallant appears different in Shadesmar, he also says Rhyshadium are sometimes called the third Shard and compares them to Spren choosing a knight, and just the bond that both Dalinar and Adolin describe as having with Rhyshadium.  It feels similar to the Nahel bond.

Of course, not all mounts would need to be Rhysium, and perhaps not every animal a radiant would bond would necessarily be a mount. Maybe WindRunners and SkyBreakers would bond with sky eels, with the bond allowing the animal to keep up with the radiant.  But I agree, this seems like a very good idea. Feels a little like what they did with Avatar, the Last Airbender.

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I’m with Rae on this, it seems unlikely that independent, intelligent species would be automatically granted to Radiants. For most of the Orders I think it would mostly get in the way even if it were to share Surges, and it’s adding a third, last minute addition to the partnership between person and spren, making it kind of crowded. Not to mention the issue of consent.

I always figured the Ryshadium were in some way created by Cultivation as a bonus for lucky Radiants without a mobility power; mostly Stonewards, Willshapers and some Elsecallers. And while we know greatshells fought in at least Aharietiam (probably with the Radiants since thunderclasts were made to emulate them ent/troll style), since many of them are at least semi-sapient I suspect  it’s the role of the Nightwatcher’s Bondsmith to get them on side.

As for what the 5th Oath grants, my personal theory is that, just as the 4th Connected them with an important phenomenon (wind, creativity, logic), it will Connect them with some major aspect of Roshar: the Highstorm for Windrunners, the land itself for Stonewards, the Rhthyms for Willshapers. Not sure what it would look like though.

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On 1/31/2023 at 3:53 AM, RaeTheRaven said:

Also, if the 5th ideal grants a bond with a Ryshadium or similar... then why are Ryshadium forming bonds with non radiants? 

Coming back to this point, I found some WoB's that I think are of note

Spoiler

Questioner

What about a person makes a Ryshadium choose them?  And why are so many in Dalinar’s family…

Brandon Sanderson

I will talk about that eventually. That is a RAFO.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/9/#e7656

Questioner

Why are there so many Kholins that are Radiants? Is there a story reason or...

Brandon Sanderson

There is a story reason, kind of. So the Kholin family is in Alethkar, which was the hereditary-- one of the homes of the Knights Radiant. It's still kind of in the forefront of the-- how shall we say-- the collective unconscious and things like this. Plus there's--

Questioner

And then they are on the forefront of that.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. I mean-- Yeah. And so the spren, some of them are naturally looking for where a lot of Radiants used to be. So it's just a higher concentration of spren around the area, if that makes sense?

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/80/#e5288

I would also like to enter for evidence the fact that all known Ryshadium riders are both lighteyes and Alethi

 

This is kind of a sub-theory, but I propose that Ryshadium are bonding the descendents of Radiants.

Edited by Frustration
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58 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Coming back to this point, I found some WoB's that I think are of note

  Hide contents

Questioner

What about a person makes a Ryshadium choose them?  And why are so many in Dalinar’s family…

Brandon Sanderson

I will talk about that eventually. That is a RAFO.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/9/#e7656

Questioner

Why are there so many Kholins that are Radiants? Is there a story reason or...

Brandon Sanderson

There is a story reason, kind of. So the Kholin family is in Alethkar, which was the hereditary-- one of the homes of the Knights Radiant. It's still kind of in the forefront of the-- how shall we say-- the collective unconscious and things like this. Plus there's--

Questioner

And then they are on the forefront of that.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. I mean-- Yeah. And so the spren, some of them are naturally looking for where a lot of Radiants used to be. So it's just a higher concentration of spren around the area, if that makes sense?

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/80/#e5288

I would also like to enter for evidence the fact that all known Ryshadium riders are both lighteyes and Alethi

 

This is kind of a sub-theory, but I propose that Ryshadium are bonding the descendents of Radiants.

This is probably because the main characters are Alethi and mostly lighteyes so those are the Ryshadium we see. I dont think they ever refer to the ryshadium as unique to the Alethi so there are probably bonded ryshadium in other parts of roshar but we dont hear about them.

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10 minutes ago, offer said:

This is probably because the main characters are Alethi and mostly lighteyes so those are the Ryshadium we see. I dont think they ever refer to the ryshadium as unique to the Alethi so there are probably bonded ryshadium in other parts of roshar but we dont hear about them.

Oh there definitely are, just like there are lighteyes outside of eastern Roshar.

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Ryshadium are bred from horses, so they're an imitation of the 5th Oath Radiants' mounts that were seen thousands of years ago. I doubt many Radiants ever made it to the last oath (in OB, Nale mentions that it is quite difficult) so the original reason for Ryshadium is murky from an Alethi history standpoint.

Likely the Radiant rides a spren. We see the honorspren ride horse-type creatures, and Shallan always comments on wanting to ride the Mandras. Also, Syl can keep up with Kaladin's multiple lashings, and clearly so can the wind spren that now make up his armor, so only a spren would respond likewise and keep up with his speed. 

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