Why the Stormfather is the Stormfather [SA 5 spoilers]

[Frustration]

Ever since the SA 5 prologue was released there has been abundant speculation that there is another force impersonating the Stormfather, usually theorized to be Ishar, BAM or Tanavast. Now I will consider (for the purposes of this thread) Tanavast and the Stormfather the same person.

Well, I wasn't convinced, and decided to look for evidence during my SA reread, and find it I did.

 

Let's look at what we know about the being that Gavilar was talking to.

1. They can lie

2. They can appear to Gavilar 

3. They can feel Heralds deaths

4. They can see the future

5. They can end the Visions

 

Starting at the beginning, we know that this being can lie, this eliminates none of our candidates, as Honorspren and Shards can both lie, as seen by Syl imitating a Voidspren, and this WoB

Spoiler

R'Shara

Can Shards lie anytime they want to other than when bound by oaths and such?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Anytime they want to might be a little... But that caveat you put on there: there are instances where they can't. But you should assume they are able to more often than not. I'm sure we've seen instances of it in multiple places in the books. Their duty to randos, as we might say, is much less than interacting with one another.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e15960

 

Next they can appear to Gavilar. This one does eliminate several candidates, namely BAM who is imprisoned, and Ishar who couldn't appear to other people without being able to establish a Connection, which would require him to touch Gavilar. Importantly the Stormfather does fit this criteria as he appears to Dalinar in RoW page 1132, or OB 405

 

They can feel the Heralds deaths. Ishar is known to not be able to tell when a Herald dies a non-permenent death. However both he and the Stormfather are known to be able to sense permanent deaths

Spoiler

Questioner

Did the Stormfather feel when Jezrien died?

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormfather would have been able to tell, yes.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498/#e15655

 

They can see the future. This eliminates both Ishar and BAM as they do not have future sight, but the Stormfather does as demonstrated in WoR page 369 and OB page 1041.

 

They can end the Visions. This ability is only known to be possessed by the Stormfather, who was the source for the visions Gavilar was seeing

Spoiler

Questioner

The visions Dalinar gets in WoK always struck me as odd - you don't just look at the past, you are able to act within this experience. Now we know that Gavilar was also on the way to being a Bondsmith - was he acting in a different way? Were the visions only basically the same but different in the end depending on the personal reactions? Is this something like a test?

Brandon Sanderson

He did see the same visions. They were the same thing. But... I will say that his reaction to them were very different from Dalinar's reactions to them. Anyway it was difficult for the Stormfather without a bond to determine/to tell the difference between very easily. When Spren are bonded, they gain a lot more ability to understand the world around then, so you'll find out soon more stuff about this in the third book.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122/#e3316

 

Additionally in the prologue the Stormfather says "You are the one I have chosen"

Which is almost exactly what he says in OB page 990

 

Therefore there is no one who could have been speaking to Gavilar during the prologue aside from the Stormfather.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Frustration

[Elder]

I agree with you, but:

I will point out that Ishar, as a “Bondsmith Unchained,” does have rather immense power that we don’t necessarily understand completely.  He may have been able to create that connection after all.  Still think it’s the Stormfather.

I suppose the real question is whether Ishar had the honor blade at that point, or Neturo son Vilano had it.

[Adamkarma]

I believe it's actually Cultivation.

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, Elder said:

I suppose the real question is whether Ishar had the honor blade at that point, or Neturo son Vilano had it.

Ishar didn't get his Honorblade until a few months before RoW.

4 hours ago, Adamkarma said:

I believe it's actually Cultivation.

Well, she can lie, appear to Gavilar, and see the future. But I don't think she has a tie into the Oathpact, Unless Honor added her, nor do I think, judging based on Odium, that she could end the Visions.

That being said, she presents one of if not the likeliest option for an imposter.

[Elder]

32 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Ishar didn't get his Honorblade until a few months before RoW.

Well, she can lie, appear to Gavilar, and see the future. But I don't think she has a tie into the Oathpact, Unless Honor added her, nor do I think, judging based on Odium, that she could end the Visions.

That being said, she presents one of if not the likeliest option for an imposter.

Honestly, we’ve seen her do more in recent history than in the past.  As far as I can tell, we have no idea what she did back in the Shadow Days/Heraldic Epochs, etc.  we don’t know of any tie to the Heralds or the Knights Radiant…… but it might be there.  They were definitely aware of her based on the sculptures at the Oath Gate.

That said, this is a topic unto itself.

Good to know about the timing of when Ishar recovered his blade.  Where do we find that out?

Edited January 30, 2023 by Elder

[alder24]

21 minutes ago, Elder said:

Good to know about the timing of when Ishar recovered his blade.  Where do we find that out?

In RoW when Szeth confronted Ishar, during Dalinar's encounter with him. Ishar said that "Shins welcomed Unmades, Neturo was not a human anymore when Ishar took his Honorblade and killed him by Neturo's request". We also know in RoW from Dalinar that all scouts send to Shinovar disappeared, Windrunners are welcomed by arrows and there is no contact from Shinovar. Sprens in Shadesmar also mention some weirdness going on in Shinovar in RoW. However in OB there was nothing to suggest that something bad is happening there. They reported incoming Everstorm - even just before battle of Thaylen, send message to Dalinar congratulating him, and Sprens in Shadesmar didn't mention anything going on in Shinovar, just in Horneaters peeks. Even earlier in Rysn interlude (WoK), Shinovar seems doing just ok - nothing was pointing to the presence of Unmades at that time. All of this places the arrival of Unmades somewhere within one year before the beginning of RoW but after the battle of Thaylen, and only after this Ishar appeared there and reclaimed his Honorblade. 

 

I do agree it is the Stormfather we know. But I don't remember now but wasn't Odium able to end Dalinar's visions? In a more brutal way, so it still doesn't fit.

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I do agree it is the Stormfather we know. But I don't remember now but wasn't Odium able to end Dalinar's visions? In a more brutal way, so it still doesn't fit.

He kind of showed up and started breaking things, but I don't think he actually ended them.

[StormingTexan]

I'm on the fence on this. At first I was 100% sure it was a Stormfaker but you and others have made really good points as to why not. I do however feel like Cultivation is a strong possibility. Perhaps she was attempting to put the Oathpack back together. I'm not sure exactly what she was trying to accomplish but the Stormfather in the prologue for sure was way different than what we have seen so far and I have a hard time believing nothing is going on here. I also feel like this is the book we are going to learn a lot more about her motivations and plans and this could be foreshadowing. Unless this is completely saved for the second half which I would be disappointed with. 

There is also this WoB which implies to me we should be noticing a difference. 

 

 

Quote

 

The Cones of Dunshire

Stormlight 5 prologue: Are we supposed to be getting really weird vibes from the Stormfather, or is this just for lack of editing?

Brandon Sanderson

*extremely facetiously* Uh, I don't know what you mean weird, that totally seems like the way the Stormfather always acts and has always!

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

 

[agrabes]

18 hours ago, Frustration said:

Ever since the SA 5 prologue was released there has been abundant speculation that there is another force impersonating the Stormfather, usually theorized to be Ishar, BAM or Tanavast. Now I will consider (for the purposes of this thread) Tanavast and the Stormfather the same person.

Well, I wasn't convinced, and decided to look for evidence during my SA reread, and find it I did.

 

Let's look at what we know about the being that Gavilar was talking to.

1. They can lie

2. They can appear to Gavilar 

3. They can feel Heralds deaths

4. They can see the future

5. They can end the Visions

 

Starting at the beginning, we know that this being can lie, this eliminates none of our candidates, as Honorspren and Shards can both lie, as seen by Syl imitating a Voidspren, and this WoB

  Reveal hidden contents

R'Shara

Can Shards lie anytime they want to other than when bound by oaths and such?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Anytime they want to might be a little... But that caveat you put on there: there are instances where they can't. But you should assume they are able to more often than not. I'm sure we've seen instances of it in multiple places in the books. Their duty to randos, as we might say, is much less than interacting with one another.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e15960

 

Next they can appear to Gavilar. This one does eliminate several candidates, namely BAM who is imprisoned, and Ishar who couldn't appear to other people without being able to establish a Connection, which would require him to touch Gavilar. Importantly the Stormfather does fit this criteria as he appears to Dalinar in RoW page 1132, or OB 405

 

They can feel the Heralds deaths. Ishar is known to not be able to tell when a Herald dies a non-permenent death. However both he and the Stormfather are known to be able to sense permanent deaths

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Did the Stormfather feel when Jezrien died?

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormfather would have been able to tell, yes.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/498/#e15655

 

They can see the future. This eliminates both Ishar and BAM as they do not have future sight, but the Stormfather does as demonstrated in WoR page 369 and OB page 1041.

 

They can end the Visions. This ability is only known to be possessed by the Stormfather, who was the source for the visions Gavilar was seeing

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

The visions Dalinar gets in WoK always struck me as odd - you don't just look at the past, you are able to act within this experience. Now we know that Gavilar was also on the way to being a Bondsmith - was he acting in a different way? Were the visions only basically the same but different in the end depending on the personal reactions? Is this something like a test?

Brandon Sanderson

He did see the same visions. They were the same thing. But... I will say that his reaction to them were very different from Dalinar's reactions to them. Anyway it was difficult for the Stormfather without a bond to determine/to tell the difference between very easily. When Spren are bonded, they gain a lot more ability to understand the world around then, so you'll find out soon more stuff about this in the third book.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122/#e3316

 

Additionally in the prologue the Stormfather says "You are the one I have chosen"

Which is almost exactly what he says in OB page 990

 

Therefore there is no one who could have been speaking to Gavilar during the prologue aside from the Stormfather.

I really like this approach to who this being might be. That said, I think there's a possibility you may be missing here.  I think that Gavilar was being approached by more than one entity - one of which was the Stormfather (who sends the visions, etc) the other was something unknown.  Sometimes, the Stormfather behaved like normal and others he didn't.  I don't know that the Stormfather would know when or if another being is getting into Gavilar's head.  Do we know of anything that would preclude two voices in Gavilar's head, both claiming to be the Stormfather?  It would require a few things as I see it:

1) Real Stormfather can't detect others' influences in Gavilar

2) "Stormfaker" can detect the Real Stormfather's conversations with Gavilar and insert its own snippets to lead him astray

Both of these things seem like they would be possible and it gives me a strong Ruin/Preservation vibe.

 

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I really like this approach to who this being might be. That said, I think there's a possibility you may be missing here.  I think that Gavilar was being approached by more than one entity - one of which was the Stormfather (who sends the visions, etc) the other was something unknown.  Sometimes, the Stormfather behaved like normal and others he didn't.  I don't know that the Stormfather would know when or if another being is getting into Gavilar's head.  Do we know of anything that would preclude two voices in Gavilar's head, both claiming to be the Stormfather?  It would require a few things as I see it:

1) Real Stormfather can't detect others' influences in Gavilar

2) "Stormfaker" can detect the Real Stormfather's conversations with Gavilar and insert its own snippets to lead him astray

Both of these things seem like they would be possible and it gives me a strong Ruin/Preservation vibe.

 

The only person who could do all of that would be Cultivation I belive.

[alder24]

30 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I really like this approach to who this being might be. That said, I think there's a possibility you may be missing here.  I think that Gavilar was being approached by more than one entity - one of which was the Stormfather (who sends the visions, etc) the other was something unknown.  Sometimes, the Stormfather behaved like normal and others he didn't.  I don't know that the Stormfather would know when or if another being is getting into Gavilar's head.  Do we know of anything that would preclude two voices in Gavilar's head, both claiming to be the Stormfather? It would require a few things as I see it:

1) Real Stormfather can't detect others' influences in Gavilar

2) "Stormfaker" can detect the Real Stormfather's conversations with Gavilar and insert its own snippets to lead him astray

Both of these things seem like they would be possible and it gives me a strong Ruin/Preservation vibe.

The only very visible "not like Stormfather" moment for me was when he told Gavilar that he will be a "... Herald". They had very consistent conversation through the whole chapter, and even this herald moment was not out of place. While he sometimes behaves weirdly, he still is consistent relative to previous conversation. If there is some Stormfaker, then you are right, he would have to hear what the Stormfather and Gavilar are talking about, to make conversation not out of place. Stormfather might not notice this intrusion, but Stormfather saw Lift as soon as Dalinar saw her in his visions, so if Stormfaker was talking to Gavilar during visions, Stormfather should be able to detect that as well. Therefore Stormfaker can't talk to Gavilar in his visions at all to avoid detection.

37 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The only person who could do all of that would be Cultivation I belive.

I think Odium might also be a likely candidate, as Gavilar traveled to Braize for Voidlight, and might acquire some kind of connection to him. But this is a shard level power.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I think Odium might also be a likely candidate, as Gavilar traveled to Braize for Voidlight, and might acquire some kind of connection to him. But this is a shard level power.

Gavilar himself didn't go, and as Odium requires the Everstorm to speak to people until much stronger Connection is formed, I don't think he could have done it.

[offer]

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Gavilar himself didn't go, and as Odium requires the Everstorm to speak to people until much stronger Connection is formed, I don't think he could have done it.

What are you basing this on? Odium was able to talk to Dalinar in the vision without the everstorm or some connection (unless maybe you count Dalinar`s connection to the thrill). Am I missing something?

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, offer said:

What are you basing this on? Odium was able to talk to Dalinar in the vision without the everstorm or some connection (unless maybe you count Dalinar`s connection to the thrill). Am I missing something?

Dalinar's Connection to the Thrill.

And he says in RoW that he used to require the everstorm in order to speak with Moash and Taravangian.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Frustration

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, offer said:

What are you basing this on? Odium was able to talk to Dalinar in the vision without the everstorm or some connection (unless maybe you count Dalinar`s connection to the thrill). Am I missing something?

That was because there was a strong connection between them, as Dalinar was seen as a champion. But I think that even Venli spoke to Odium only in the Everstorm, and Taravangian at the beginning as well.