Healing and the brain vs healing and the soul

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I am trying to figure out where the soul is for people in the cosmere.  I don't know how much this truly has to be in the spoiler section but when I read Ranette and Wayne's conversation at the restaurant they talked about him being cut in half with a cannon ball and that he was lucky the metalminds were on the piece of him with his head.... 

Besides speaking alot to the power of gold feruchemy on its own, I thought this was interesting when I put it next to an assumption I always made with steel and iron.  

I thought steel and iron pushed from the center point of the soul... perhaps this is false and they simply push and pull from the source of metal and where it is being burnt.  (In which case could you pierce your body to burn and push and pull from anywhere?)  

Is the brain driving the healing or is the soul?  Are they located in the same spot?   How does that fair with all other forms of healing?  Did TLR ever really get decapitated?  Obviously and neurons firing at all can allow a compounder to heal but would Miles have needed an earing to prevent decapitation from killing him?  

[Frustration]

The soul is located in the SR, not in the body.

Healing makes the body match the soul, but with gold you need your brain intact in order to tap it.

And steel comes from center of self, which is just wherever you imagine center of mass to be, but you can adjust where that is.

Spoiler

Questioner

I have a theory. Because the center of gravity for a female is naturally lower, but when Vin burns iron or steel, the blue lines come from her chest, does that come from her center of self, rather than the center of gravity?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. That's probably a more accurate way to put it. 

Questioner

Would it be possible for that to change, then? 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is possible. I should say it like that, because it's not going to actually be... Because center of gravity, where you would actually put it, is not where I'm having those lines come from. You came in costume. You can just make that canon now and we will put that on all of the lists that that is what it is.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The soul is located in the SR, not in the body.

Healing makes the body match the soul, but with gold you need your brain intact in order to tap it.

And steel comes from center of self, which is just wherever you imagine center of mass to be, but you can adjust where that is.

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Questioner

I have a theory. Because the center of gravity for a female is naturally lower, but when Vin burns iron or steel, the blue lines come from her chest, does that come from her center of self, rather than the center of gravity?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. That's probably a more accurate way to put it. 

Questioner

Would it be possible for that to change, then? 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is possible. I should say it like that, because it's not going to actually be... Because center of gravity, where you would actually put it, is not where I'm having those lines come from. You came in costume. You can just make that canon now and we will put that on all of the lists that that is what it is.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

Thanks for this.  Is it actually the brain in tact or does passive burning that we see in allomancy allow for compounding better?   I get the need to consciously tap feruchemy.  Do you think passive burning like we see with pewter would allow miles to do it without brain activity?   

We see the guy get plugged in the dome 3 times and still start to come back... maybe that is more trellium.  I am sure Miles would not have even been knocked out by those shots as we see him heal up Wax's shots through the head as they are passing through the tissue.  

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Thanks for this.  Is it actually the brain in tact or does passive burning that we see in allomancy allow for compounding better?   I get the need to consciously tap feruchemy.  Do you think passive burning like we see with pewter would allow miles to do it without brain activity?

You still need brain activity in order to burn something, just like how you need a brain to breath, even if you very rarely do it contiously.

2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

We see the guy get plugged in the dome 3 times and still start to come back... maybe that is more trellium.  I am sure Miles would not have even been knocked out by those shots as we see him heal up Wax's shots through the head as they are passing through the tissue.  

The brain can take a lot of damage and still retain partial function, so long as nervous signals can still be sent to that part of the body, he can tap his metalminds, which would also heal his brain.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

Is it possible to artificially stimulate brain function to tap gold?

[Leuthie]

13 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Is it possible to artificially stimulate brain function to tap gold?

Don't see why not. Just need enough brain power to tap the metalmind and heal the rest of the brain before the soul leaves the Physical form.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Leuthie

[IlstrawberrySeed]

What happens if the soul already left? Do you get an unkeyed lifeless?

[Ashbringer]

43 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

What happens if the soul already left? Do you get an unkeyed lifeless?

Depends on the magics, and when the soul left / if it’s gone to the Beyond or not. Szeth died at the end of WoR but was essentially healed and resuscitated by a Regrowth fabrial. But that only worked because it was done quickly. Too long and the magic won’t help.

I don’t think we know of non-Breath Lifeless, but it’s an interesting concept. And probably possible somehow.

[Leuthie]

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

What happens if the soul already left? Do you get an unkeyed lifeless?

If the soul leaves the body of a Gold Ferring, the Connection to the abilities and the stored metalminds is severed. The Cognitive Shadow doesn't have access to the stored health. The stored health is lost. It's locked within a locked metalmind that doesn't have a key. Keyed metalminds are just pieces of metal after the one that made them dies.

[A Simple Pilgrim]

That gives me an idea for the Cyberpunk and Sci-fi mistborn era. You could have some sort of artificial implant that can stimulate/simulate the brain waves that activate feruchemical healing, so that those with access to that ability could survive getting their head blown off, basically making them immune to anything short of their entire body getting obliterated at once.

Also from Shallan getting plugged in the head in one of the books with a crossbow and still being able to heal it, it's possible that the physical brain is not that necessary if you are invested enough.

[alder24]

Why not just put a few small goldminds inside of your brain? Your brain would just tap them when unconscious or even dead. The brain is able to fire electrical signals many minutes after death, or even hours if preserved. So the brain would just tap them out of habit, bringing you back to life. Far easier than chip.

[lacrossedeamon]

33 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Why not just put a few small goldminds inside of your brain? Your brain would just tap them when unconscious or even dead. The brain is able to fire electrical signals many minutes after death, or even hours if preserved. So the brain would just tap them out of habit, bringing you back to life. Far easier than chip.

I wonder if it’s even necessary for the goldminds to be in the head. In Dragonsteel Prime when Hoid gets decapitated he regrows a new head which surprised him since he believed he would regrow a new everything else.

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I wonder if it’s even necessary for the goldminds to be in the head. In Dragonsteel Prime when Hoid gets decapitated he regrows a new head which surprised him since he believed he would regrow a new everything else.

That's different, it's a Dawnshard thing. It was already mentioned here that you need to "think" to burn or tap metals, that is how metal arts work. 

23 hours ago, Frustration said:

You still need brain activity in order to burn something, just like how you need a brain to breath, even if you very rarely do it contiously.

The brain can take a lot of damage and still retain partial function, so long as nervous signals can still be sent to that part of the body, he can tap his metalminds, which would also heal his brain.

So even if someone would get decapitated, with enough full goldminds in his head (golden skull!), he would regrow his entire body back, before soul leaves.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

So even if someone would get decapitated, with enough full goldminds in his head (golden skull!), he would regrow his entire body back, before soul leaves.

That depends, if they have enough gold and were already healing they might grow a new head, but that would be the exception, the head growing a new body would probably be easier with Gold specifically, though with Dawnshards and Stormlight it would probably grow a new head.

[lacrossedeamon]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That's different, it's a Dawnshard thing. It was already mentioned here that you need to "think" to burn or tap metals, that is how metal arts work. 

I’m not disagreeing with that, just that due to realmatic nature of the cosmere “thinking” might operate a little differently. Even when decapitated the cognitive self sees the both parts as still one entity sorta (at least that is the case with Spren making fabrials work). So if the burning happens in the cognitive realm at all in anyway it might be possible for a detached head to tap goldminds in the body via that cognitive aspect connection and then who know which part regrows.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

17 hours ago, Leuthie said:

If the soul leaves the body of a Gold Ferring, the Connection to the abilities and the stored metalminds is severed. The Cognitive Shadow doesn't have access to the stored health. The stored health is lost. It's locked within a locked metalmind that doesn't have a key. Keyed metalminds are just pieces of metal after the one that made them dies.

I would assume using a medalian - not innate investiture, but even so it probably wouldn't do anything more than in ettmetal healed the corpse as an object.

[Dancer]

You still need brain activity in order to burn something, just like how you need a brain to breath, even if you very rarely do it contiously.

 If you compound you don't need the brain to be intact. Myles was able to blow his head off with a shotgun point blank in the face and was perfectly ok. The Lord ruler was rumored to survive being beheaded and from Myles's showings it is perfectly possible that he did.  

Edited February 4, 2023 by Dancer

[Frustration]

7 hours ago, Dancer said:

 If you compound you don't need the brain to be intact. Myles was able to blow his head off with a shotgun point blank in the face and was perfectly ok. The Lord ruler was rumored to survive being beheaded and from Myles's showings it is perfectly possible that he did.  

TLR was probably lying, and Miles didn't blow his head off, he just fired some shots through it.

Spoiler

Arabas

The question is about the Lord Ruler's death.  He is basically killed because Vin was able to remove his Feruchemy storage bracelets thus depriving him of his stored youth and strength correct?  Once he didn't have access to these she could simply kill him like a normal man.Now on page 627 about the 3rd paragraph down the Lord Ruler states " I've survived burning and beheadings.  I've been stabbed and sliced, crushed and dismembered." (I also think this is also reference somewhere else in the book that I could not locate)If all it took to drain the Lord Ruler of his power was to remove access to his Feruchemy items wouldn't he have died if he was dismembered?  Remove the storage devices from the trunk of the body and he would die?

Peter Ahlstrom

I asked Brandon about this once, and I'm pretty sure he said the beheading survival part was a lie/exaggeration. I'd have to go back and check my notes.

The Lord Ruler would have reason to want people to believe he had survived beheadings and being burned to ash.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/291/#e11199

 

 

 

[Trusk'our]

On 2/4/2023 at 3:20 AM, Dancer said:

 If you compound you don't need the brain to be intact. Myles was able to blow his head off with a shotgun point blank in the face and was perfectly ok. The Lord ruler was rumored to survive being beheaded and from Myles's showings it is perfectly possible that he did.  

Yeah, I think that if you're body is familiar enough with tapping health from a Goldmind that it will do so unconsciously, even if your brain wouldn't be able to do so- you're Invested enough that your Cognitive aspect jumps the need for your Physical aspect's brain to call the shots. We've seen something similar happen with Vin burning Pewter unconsciously, though her brain was still intact.

Perhaps you would need to become a F-gold Savant in order for brain injuries to automatically heal then, since you become far more attached to your powers and you are drawn closer to your Spiritual aspect.

On 1/25/2023 at 10:33 AM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

We see the guy get plugged in the dome 3 times and still start to come back... maybe that is more trellium.  I am sure Miles would not have even been knocked out by those shots as we see him heal up Wax's shots through the head as they are passing through the tissue.  

Someone else (sorry, can't remember who) mentioned that Trellium Hemalurgy may allow for powers to act more autonomously since that is more in line with the Shard's Intent.

Based on how Southern Scadrien Medallion tech allows for unconscious tapping (otherwise they couldn't sleep while flying on an airship), I think that this is similar to what is going on with Trellium spikes.

Quote

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Raddatatta

In Era 1, Sazed says the only thing you can Feruchemically store while sleeping is wakefulness, but in Era 2 they have the sky ships that require everyone to be storing weight to fly and they don't land while people sleep. Was Sazed just wrong, or is that a difference between normal Feruchemy and using the unsealed metalminds?

Brandon Sanderson

Unsealed metalminds, I am moving toward complete—you probably already guessed this—mechanical uses of Investiture, and this indeed is a step toward that. And so we are stepping toward having a little machine that gives you powers. That's what the world wants to try to find. And this is—this being mechanical—we'll just say that the medallions and the things that they're building have more of a life-force, more of an Identity of their own than a traditional metalmind does, even though they're unkeyed and all of this stuff.

 

[StanLemon]

On 4/8/2023 at 11:01 AM, Trusk'our said:

Yeah, I think that if you're body is familiar enough with tapping health from a Goldmind that it will do so unconsciously, even if your brain wouldn't be able to do so- you're Invested enough that your Cognitive aspect jumps the need for your Physical aspect's brain to call the shots. We've seen something similar happen with Vin burning Pewter unconsciously, though her brain was still intact.

Perhaps you would need to become a F-gold Savant in order for brain injuries to automatically heal then, since you become far more attached to your powers and you are drawn closer to your Spiritual aspect.

Someone else (sorry, can't remember who) mentioned that Trellium Hemalurgy may allow for powers to act more autonomously since that is more in line with the Shard's Intent.

Based on how Southern Scadrien Medallion tech allows for unconscious tapping (otherwise they couldn't sleep while flying on an airship), I think that this is similar to what is going on with Trellium spikes.

 

Incidentally this WoB only talks about storing while sleeping. It's still entirely believable that a Feruchemist can unconsciously tap their metalminds, like how metals can be burned unconsciously