Crackpot idea about the Seethe

[Ironeyes]

I'm in the middle of my second reading of Tress, and a mildly insane theory occurred to me that explains multiple things at once. It goes like this: 

1. Lumar is hollow, or at least has a massive cave structure through its mantle/core. Think Naboo. 
2. Some or all of the spore oceans have drainage holes at their bottoms, through which spores sink into the hollow space. 
3. One of the spores creates water when activated. The water drains into the hollow space as well. 
4. Inside the core, the mixture of this water with Zephyr spores creates immense gaseous pressure, which is then forced back up through the seabed and causes the Seethe. 
5. The water also activates Sunlight spores, which create the heat that is absent because of Lumar's non-molten core. 
6. Spores that create solid objects do so, but the solid vines and Roseite and such eventually decay in the absence of continuing investiture influx. If that decay doesn't happen, the continuing emptiness of the core could also be explained by the Rose, Crimson, and Emerald seas having fewer and smaller holes for spores to drain into, thanks to having plugged them up over the centuries. The outflow of air would prevent further spores from entering in large numbers. 

This is all wild speculation, but it explains a few things at the same time. The biggest one is the Seethe. We already have a magical way to generate air, so it isn't a huge stretch to say that it's causing the as-yet-unexplained source of gas from the ocean bed.

Second, a massive underground aquifer explains how islands like the Rock have groundwater despite rain being presumably unable to reach the seabed. Groundwater normally relies on rain soaking into the ground (I live in Arizona and we're veeeery concerned with recharging our aquifer this way). With the Verdant sea soaking up all rain, the Rock normally shouldn't have any groundwater to dig a well to. On a related note, having one of the spores create water also explains why the planet hasn't become uninhabitable through dehydration, with the moons sucking water away as fast as they can. 

Third, if there is a traditional liquid ocean, this explains why people thought it was feasible to settle on this world. There are some hints that they may not be native. 

Fourth and least important, if the Sapphire sea is draining at the quickest rate, that could be why it's so heavily populated. More land would stick out above the spores. This would probably have to be the case for the Seethe to be so ubiquitous. Granted, Sunlight spores adding heat would also increase the pressure and help drive the phenomenon. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Ironeyes

[lacrossedeamon]

While one of the spores creating water would be in line with the Ten Essences theory I feel it would be too similar to the reason that slatrification was decanonized making me think Brandon wouldn’t do that. All the other stuff might be true though just number 3 is the most iffy for me.

[RaeTheRaven]

Mmm, okay but we know that the Aethers are not native to Lumar. So the spore seas were not always there. However, if the whole planet is riddled with caves that require zephyr spores... my issue is those caves would have filled up with water before the spores came. So let's say the spores started falling and they slowly dried up the oceans and covered the planet, they would also have filled up those caves as they fell into the water there and slowly dried it up. 

Also, regarding the water cycle in general... it's a bit iffy. I think it wasn't explained in the best way. Because... there's rain. Which requires clouds which requires there to be water on the surface that evaporates. That's why it doesn't rain much in the desert. I also don't really know what would cause such specific rain patterns across the planet except for the crimson sea. I feel like there's gotta be some magic reasons for it because I can't think of what would make it scientifically make much sense. 

About the people of Lumar settling there... this is just my speculation. But what if both the Irali and the current Lumarans were native to Lumar. But the Irali were advanced so when the spores came, they peaced out and the people who now live there are the descendants of the more primitive peoples on the planet. 

[Govir]

On 1/24/2023 at 11:41 PM, RaeTheRaven said:

I also don't really know what would cause such specific rain patterns across the planet except for the crimson sea. I feel like there's gotta be some magic reasons for it because I can't think of what would make it scientifically make much sense. 

I don't know science that much either, but could the proximity of the "moons" help cause this? Similar to how our moon affects the tides.

[RaeTheRaven]

16 hours ago, Govir said:

I don't know science that much either, but could the proximity of the "moons" help cause this? Similar to how our moon affects the tides.

I mean, I'm not really a meteorologist, but I think in general the moon has a much smaller effect on the atmosphere than it does on liquid water because gases are just less dense. Is it possible? Maybe, but... honestly I doubt that's what Brandon was going for. Like, the tidal forces on that planet with 12 moons would be super weird and complicated. I would say weather and specifically rain is much more affected by how much humidity there is in the air, the wind and the temperature of the water and the atmosphere. And having such precise patterns would seem to indicate to me that those factors are very steady and they change in the same ways by the same magnitude in the same places at the same times. Everywhere except for the Crimson Sea for some reason. I don't know, that doesn't seem like it would be a natural phenomenon to me. Whether it's somehow magic or maybe some kind of technology... I don't know. I just can't think of a "natural" explanation for it. But then again, as I said, I'm far from an expert in the field so maybe there is one.

[Govir]

On 1/27/2023 at 1:54 AM, RaeTheRaven said:

I mean, I'm not really a meteorologist, but I think in general the moon has a much smaller effect on the atmosphere than it does on liquid water because gases are just less dense. Is it possible? Maybe, but... honestly I doubt that's what Brandon was going for. Like, the tidal forces on that planet with 12 moons would be super weird and complicated. I would say weather and specifically rain is much more affected by how much humidity there is in the air, the wind and the temperature of the water and the atmosphere. And having such precise patterns would seem to indicate to me that those factors are very steady and they change in the same ways by the same magnitude in the same places at the same times. Everywhere except for the Crimson Sea for some reason. I don't know, that doesn't seem like it would be a natural phenomenon to me. Whether it's somehow magic or maybe some kind of technology... I don't know. I just can't think of a "natural" explanation for it. But then again, as I said, I'm far from an expert in the field so maybe there is one.

Yeah, basically I meant because the "moons" were static, I wonder if they're creating "gravity channels" (a concept I just made up) where all the clouds are forced to go. I've only read the book once, can't remember if they talk about clouds without rain. Interesting, but not important (or is it?...)

[RaeTheRaven]

2 hours ago, Govir said:

Yeah, basically I meant because the "moons" were static, I wonder if they're creating "gravity channels" (a concept I just made up) where all the clouds are forced to go. I've only read the book once, can't remember if they talk about clouds without rain. Interesting, but not important (or is it?...)

Honestly... I think that would be a stretch. This is more a gut feeling than me actually having thought about it/tried to figure out how feasible it is. But I feel like if the moon's gravity was so strong that it would force clouds in the same exact patters all the time, there'd be other ways in which that was felt. And even if that were the case, it still wouldn't explain the random rain in the crimson sea. Whatever the explanation for it... I don't think it's the moons. Or at least not via any "natural" phenomena. 

[Xiahida]

 Maybe Verdant vines get stabbed by spikes and release "water" which continues a cycle or somewhere in the midnight sea there is a hole in an island where rain falls? This would explain how the cycle would continue and use most of the spores except for Midnight.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Xiahida
Thought the original sounded bad

[Dreamwa1ker]

What if the planet is alive in the middle, and the Seethe and interruptions have to do with it breathing? Xixis was supposedly studying the complex ecosystem at the bottom of the spore seas, could be studying this creature.

[Trusk'our]

On 1/24/2023 at 7:14 PM, Ironeyes said:

I'm in the middle of my second reading of Tress, and a mildly insane theory occurred to me that explains multiple things at once. It goes like this: 

1. Lumar is hollow, or at least has a massive cave structure through its mantle/core. Think Naboo. 
2. Some or all of the spore oceans have drainage holes at their bottoms, through which spores sink into the hollow space. 
3. One of the spores creates water when activated. The water drains into the hollow space as well. 
4. Inside the core, the mixture of this water with Zephyr spores creates immense gaseous pressure, which is then forced back up through the seabed and causes the Seethe. 
5. The water also activates Sunlight spores, which create the heat that is absent because of Lumar's non-molten core. 
6. Spores that create solid objects do so, but the solid vines and Roseite and such eventually decay in the absence of continuing investiture influx. If that decay doesn't happen, the continuing emptiness of the core could also be explained by the Rose, Crimson, and Emerald seas having fewer and smaller holes for spores to drain into, thanks to having plugged them up over the centuries. The outflow of air would prevent further spores from entering in large numbers. 

This is all wild speculation, but it explains a few things at the same time. The biggest one is the Seethe. We already have a magical way to generate air, so it isn't a huge stretch to say that it's causing the as-yet-unexplained source of gas from the ocean bed.

Second, a massive underground aquifer explains how islands like the Rock have groundwater despite rain being presumably unable to reach the seabed. Groundwater normally relies on rain soaking into the ground (I live in Arizona and we're veeeery concerned with recharging our aquifer this way). With the Verdant sea soaking up all rain, the Rock normally shouldn't have any groundwater to dig a well to. On a related note, having one of the spores create water also explains why the planet hasn't become uninhabitable through dehydration, with the moons sucking water away as fast as they can. 

Third, if there is a traditional liquid ocean, this explains why people thought it was feasible to settle on this world. There are some hints that they may not be native. 

Fourth and least important, if the Sapphire sea is draining at the quickest rate, that could be why it's so heavily populated. More land would stick out above the spores. This would probably have to be the case for the Seethe to be so ubiquitous. Granted, Sunlight spores adding heat would also increase the pressure and help drive the phenomenon. 

It sounds like the Seethe is caused by or at least closely related to the decay of Spores, hence the reason the Spore oceans don't overfill.

Quote

Tress Spoiler Stream - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Zabeesh

If the moons are constantly pouring out spores, how do the oceans not fill up? Do they degrade eventually, or is there another method?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they degrade eventually. I'll be perfectly frank with you: my science on this, I have not gone to all of my normal science routes. The only one of the Secret Projects that we did a lot of the scientific work on is Four, because of how tied into the rest of the Cosmere it is. I have some sort of plausible wiggle room on Book One, because Hoid is telling the story, and he can get some things wrong.

Where I am right now is: the seethe is partially involved in the way that the spores degrade. And that's part of what causes it; you've got this decomposition of a fantastical sort happening deep down, and that that is causing the seethe. But I have not run the science on this.

All of my books straddle on this continuum between fully scientific and fully fantastical. And I tend to sit over on this side [scientific], where Stormlight, I'm gonna work out all of these things. But I write fantasy, and once in a while I want to stray into the whimsical. And I purposefully did it on Tress; I'm gonna push the boundaries of what I can do and still have it be reasonable that it could exist with fantastical resources, and go kind of as far whimsical as I feel comfortable doing.

That isn't to say that you should consider this non-canon; it is absolutely canon. But what it means is, I didn't start with "what's the science of this?" I started with "what is the really interesting story I want to tell, and let's tell the story there." And if it comes down that the science just can't work; well, the answer is: "A wizard did it." I have enough access to fantastical explanations for the things that happen that I can make this work." But it is me pushing the boundaries of that.

So, know that I've got general impressions. Such as: spores are degrading. The way that they're degrading is actually causing the seethe. Much in a kind of an accelerated version of how methane comes up through decomposition, and that's what we're doing. But the water cycle is really tricky; I have some instincts on how that works, but I'm not even gonna talk about them, because I don't wanna canonize that, 'cause the water cycle's a really tricky thing on this planet, in particular.