Gravitation vs. steel/ iron Allomancy flight and combat.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Tbf inertia and g-forces should be involved when changing directions, as you change direction of movement. But I guess Stormlight absorbs all the effects of this.

And the object would not move to you following the shortest route - it has speed in one direction, it has to lose it in order to move in opposite direction. So like orbits work. That objects would make big arches, circles and spirals around you, not straight line. The bigger the speed, the bigger the arches, so you could maneuver easily to avoid them.

But @IlstrawberrySeed gives us WoB, so it can't happen.

This would just be in the case of moving down?  Gravitation users can change on a whim? 

I genuinely assumed that in NYC a fast pace chase through alleyways and perhaps even into buildings and back out again would have been an instance where steel and iron allowing for such quick acceleration and working differently than falling came out on top. 

I know not all systems are made equal.  I always had it in my mind that pewter allowed mistborn to ignore the gut wrenching pushes and pulls of iron and steel flight.   That with pewter a mistborn in a more closed space with ample metal to play with an use would come out on top for the fact that they move as if shot from a gun in one direction and then the next over and over again.   Gravitation seems to allow you to fall as speeds that make our fastest aircraft jealous and allows you to change direction and speed at will without feeling anything.  Iron and steel work in archs with all of the physics that come with it.   Gravitation ignores them all and has no movement speed limit except for stormlight... which is infinite for all intents and purposes when comparing systems.  

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This would just be in the case of moving down?  Gravitation users can change on a whim? 

Every direction is down for Windrunners. So when Windrunners moves north, and suddenly changes lashings to south, he would have to first lose all speed in the north direction, before gaining speed in south direction. The direction change shouldn't be instantaneous. If he wants to change direction by an angle of 90 degree while moving very fast, he should make an arch, rather than a sharp 90 degree turn.

2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I genuinely assumed that in NYC a fast pace chase through alleyways and perhaps even into buildings and back out again would have been an instance where steel and iron allowing for such quick acceleration and working differently than falling came out on top. 

I know not all systems are made equal.  I always had it in my mind that pewter allowed mistborn to ignore the gut wrenching pushes and pulls of iron and steel flight.   That with pewter a mistborn in a more closed space with ample metal to play with an use would come out on top for the fact that they move as if shot from a gun in one direction and then the next over and over again.   Gravitation seems to allow you to fall as speeds that make our fastest aircraft jealous and allows you to change direction and speed at will without feeling anything.  Iron and steel work in archs with all of the physics that come with it.   Gravitation ignores them all and has no movement speed limit except for stormlight... which is infinite for all intents and purposes when comparing systems.  

I think a skilled Windrunner, like Kaladin, would have no problem with quick direction changes in urban areas. But during fight or pursuit Kaladin isn't moving at top speeds, more like with 1-3 lashings. With lower speeds he can easily maneuver and change directions fast and smoothly. I think that's how Kaladin moves - with arches and smooth turns, not sharp angles, but I don't remember, I would have to check in books.

And Windrunner, unlike Mistborn, can fly above the city and from high away follow his target. He can just avoid all buildings.

2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Gravitation seems to allow you to fall as speeds that make our fastest aircraft jealous 

No: Windrunners - 200 mph (or 360 or so with the Highstorm), f16 - 1,345 mph, Boing 747 - 660 mph. Not in the atmosphere. In space, yes.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Every direction is down for Windrunners. So when Windrunners moves north, and suddenly changes lashings to south, he would have to first lose all speed in the north direction, before gaining speed in south direction. The direction change shouldn't be instantaneous. If he wants to change direction by an angle of 90 degree while moving very fast, he should make an arch, rather than a sharp 90 degree turn.

I think a skilled Windrunner, like Kaladin, would have no problem with quick direction changes in urban areas. But during fight or pursuit Kaladin isn't moving at top speeds, more like with 1-3 lashings. With lower speeds he can easily maneuver and change directions fast and smoothly. I think that's how Kaladin moves - with arches and smooth turns, not sharp angles, but I don't remember, I would have to check in books.

And Windrunner, unlike Mistborn, can fly above the city and from high away follow his target. He can just avoid all buildings.

No: Windrunners - 200 mph (or 360 or so with the Highstorm), f16 - 1,345 mph, Boing 747 - 660 mph. Not in the atmosphere. In space, yes.

That was my point about menuverability.  I have been fairly consistent in my thoughts that high metal surroundings and low down in city scapes the mistborn outmenuevers the windrunner.  Iron and steel work different.   Sudden change in direction is what they do.  Inertia may still apply but the force exerted onto the mistborn by the magic is a lot different than gravitation.  Changing direction with steel is like being shot from a rocket.  Changing direction with iron is like hitting the end of a leash at a full sprint.  Some of those changes absolutely need pewter to compliment them... others may be far more gradual.  Falling I feel would be a lot different in the way it changes.  

As for the whole speed thing.  This entire thread is about how you can stack as many lashings as you want and that the terminal velocity only goes up the more you do.  So, without any defined costs with stormlight usage,, we can assume that there is no upperlimit to the speed you can go.  How many lashings to break the speed of sound?   For a rock it's somewhere between 21 and 30.  For a person?  

These threads are hard to keep up with.  The theoretical and technical often trumps what we have seen on screen so often it can be nauseating.  

I have seen 200mph as the cap for windrunner on screen as well as someone saying it was actually 350+mph when outrunning a highstorm.  

What we see with the rock is that it is simply as fast as you have stormlight for.   Which is where it gets tiring.  We don't know if stacking stormlight has any diminishing returns at all.  Something like feruchemy where tapping more uses more makes sense but I don't think we have any source either way for that.  

Kaladin chasing Vin through Luthedel trying to land shots or Kaladin chasing Wax through Elendel trying to do the same would be a totally different story than them chasing him.  

I know for a fact that if the windrunner doesn't want to get hit he can bug out above the city and be hundreds of miles away before the allomancers get out of the city....

But make Kaladins win condition that he needs to find them and kill them in their city I think he would have a harder time keeping up just on the nature of how much thrust steel and iron generate when they are used.  The movement and acceleration are nearly instantaneous.  

If gravitation suffers no penalties to changing direction then its not really a contest.   So long as you can think fast enough to not be a bug on the windshield you should be able to stack lashings to fall at speeds faster than compounded steel can run.  

Again I don't think there is much evidence in the books for it being that simple and radiants deserve to lose all the more if it is that simple (like soulcasting the air surrounding an enemy army into lethal poison or encasing them all in stone and metal).  

It is kind of a bummer that what we got from Kaladin falling into the enemy shardbearer can give us nothing.  Counting to 10 and saying screw it just do as much as you can and it conveniently being enough to crack it makes it infuriatingly impossible to say you have to swing a hammer x size x speed to crack plate... or bullet x traveling at speed Y will crack plate. 

Back to gravitation vs iron and steel though... 

Top speed is gravitation win hands down. 

Ability to weave deadly projectiles to your will is steel and irons playground.  

Maneuverability is up to how gravitation really works.   For steel and iron a lot of it depends on having another power to protect your body from shredding itself up internally due to the forces exerted on your insides when using them. 

I think steel and iron work a lot more violently / explosively in how they take place in achieving their goals.  Gravitation is always going to be more gradual in what it does despite its potential ceilings.  Whether it is setting up projectiles or flying yourself there is a fundamental difference in how they work that gets overlooked everytime by the short answer of "lash x times to make it not matter".  

[alder24]

39 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

As for the whole speed thing.  This entire thread is about how you can stack as many lashings as you want and that the terminal velocity only goes up the more you do.  So, without any defined costs with stormlight usage,, we can assume that there is no upperlimit to the speed you can go.  How many lashings to break the speed of sound?   For a rock it's somewhere between 21 and 30.  For a person?  

No, there is a limit. Air resistance. At some point air would create a wall of densely packed air in front of you, so you would have harder and harder time accelerating in that direction - like a space shuttle entering Earth's atmosphere, friction would burn you. So at some speeds Windrunner would have to constantly heal (this would probably happen before reaching the speed of sound), and his terminal velocity would drop down, as the air he's moving in is much denser than normally. Stacking more lashings wouldn't increase his speed then. 

For a 80kg person falling head first, with 0.5m2 cross sectional area, it would require more than 20 Rosharian g to break the sound barrier. But I doubt it would be a pleasant experience. 

39 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I have seen 200mph as the cap for windrunner on screen as well as someone saying it was actually 350+mph when outrunning a highstorm.  

I think in the Highstorms speed can be higher as the winds are moving the air with greats speeds in the same direction as Windrunner is going. So those speeds can be just added up. Winds push Windrunner and give him more speed, he doesn't have to push the air in fornt of him that much. In other words there is less air in front of him, than behind him.

39 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If gravitation suffers no penalties to changing direction then its not really a contest. 

There are g forces, but he has Stormlight that heals him, so its not affecting him. I've checked in the book.

39 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

It is kind of a bummer that what we got from Kaladin falling into the enemy shardbearer can give us nothing.  Counting to 10 and saying screw it just do as much as you can

He didn't count at all. It just said as many as he could.

39 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Maneuverability is up to how gravitation really works.

So in WoR ch 52 (Kaladin's first flight) there is clear evidence of g forces working - his stomach rising to his throat but Stormlight healed negative effects. He still feels some discomfort. But for the changes of directions at one time he's falling with great speed into the wall, and then in the last moment he lashes himself in the opposite direction, which slows down his fall into the wall, but doesn't stop him in the instant. So that would be proof that the change of directions is gradual. But in the other moment he's falling again into the wall, and in the last moment he lashes himself in two directions at once (to the back and to the side), which changes his falling direction (to the side) very fast (the moment with g forces). This shouldn't stop him instantly, and I think it didn't, and the result should be "gradual" deceleration and arch into the direction of that side he chose, but his movement wasn't precisely described. I guess I'm confused by the words "in the last moment” which suggest to me that he does that just before hitting the wall, which shouldn't be the case if it involves deceleration, then the last moment should be far away from the wall. So I don't really know. I guess he can change directions both gradually and instantly, depending on what Brandon wants him to do.

Edited January 25, 2023 by alder24

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No, there is a limit. Air resistance. At some point air would create a wall of densely packed air in front of you, so you would have harder and harder time accelerating in that direction - like a space shuttle entering Earth's atmosphere, friction would burn you. So at some speeds Windrunner would have to constantly heal (this would probably happen before reaching the speed of sound), and his terminal velocity would drop down, as the air he's moving in is much denser than normally. Stacking more lashings wouldn't increase his speed then. 

For a 80kg person falling head first, with 0.5m2 cross sectional area, it would require more than 20 Rosharian g to break the sound barrier. But I doubt it would be a great experience. 

I think in the Highstorms speed can be higher as the winds are moving the air with greats speeds in the same direction as Windrunner is going. So those speeds can be just added up. Winds push Windrunner and give him more speed, he doesn't have to push the air in fornt of him that much. In other words there is less air in front of him, than behind him.

There are g forces, but he has Stormlight that heals him, so its not affecting him. I've checked in the book.

He didn't count at all. It just said as many as he could.

So in WoR ch 52 (Kaladin's first flight) there is clear evidence of g forces working - his stomach rising to his throat but Stormlight healed negative effects. He still feels some discomfort. But for the changes of directions at one time he's falling with great speed into the wall, and then in the last moment he lashes himself in the opposite direction, which slows down his fall into the wall, but doesn't stop him in the instant. So that would be proof that the change of directions is gradual. But in the other moment he's falling again into the wall, and in the last moment he lashes himself in two directions at once (to the back and to the side), which changes his falling direction (to the side) very fast (the moment with g forces). This shouldn't stop him instantly, and I think it didn't, and the result should be "gradual" deceleration and arch into the direction of that side he chose, but his movement wasn't precisely described. I guess I'm confused by the words "in the last moment” which suggest to me that he does that just before hitting the wall, which shouldn't be the case if it involves deceleration, then the last moment should be far away from the wall. So I don't really know. I guess he can change directions both gradually and instantly, depending on what Brandon wants him to do.

Does shardplate being immune to heat allow the windrunner to negate all of that air resistance though?  What speeds are we talking here?  Perhaps faster than the rock traveling the speed of sound?   

 

[therunner]

17 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

That was my point about menuverability.  I have been fairly consistent in my thoughts that high metal surroundings and low down in city scapes the mistborn outmenuevers the windrunner.  Iron and steel work different.   Sudden change in direction is what they do.  Inertia may still apply but the force exerted onto the mistborn by the magic is a lot different than gravitation.  Changing direction with steel is like being shot from a rocket.  Changing direction with iron is like hitting the end of a leash at a full sprint.  Some of those changes absolutely need pewter to compliment them... others may be far more gradual.  Falling I feel would be a lot different in the way it changes. 

If gravitation suffers no penalties to changing direction then its not really a contest.   So long as you can think fast enough to not be a bug on the windshield you should be able to stack lashings to fall at speeds faster than compounded steel can run. 

Maneuverability is up to how gravitation really works.   For steel and iron a lot of it depends on having another power to protect your body from shredding itself up internally due to the forces exerted on your insides when using them.

So funny thing is that gravitation should not suffer any penalties when accelerating/decelarating. The problems of fast acceleration/deceleration are due to uneven acceleration across the body, and the resulting shear and stress forces in the body (i.e. your skull stops, but your brains does not). However, gravitational acceleration affects all the body parts equally, and so would not lead to such effects.

Of course book evidence goes against it, which is veery confusing from physical perspective. Only explanation is that somehow Windrunner only lashes their bones or something?

However, if both people (i.e. the one with gravitation and the one with steel/iron) have only those powers, then the limit of what their body can take as far as acceleration goes is the same for both. And since Lashing can replicate any effect of steel/iron (stacking lashing in appropriate directions), and even do better (more available directions, better control over acceleration/deceleration). So maneuverability should go to gravitation user.

Quote

I think steel and iron work a lot more violently / explosively in how they take place in achieving their goals.  Gravitation is always going to be more gradual in what it does despite its potential ceilings.  Whether it is setting up projectiles or flying yourself there is a fundamental difference in how they work that gets overlooked everytime by the short answer of "lash x times to make it not matter".  

Not necessarily, in steel/iron you exert some force which can be modulated (strong/gentle pushes/pulls), so there is some acceleration on you given by the force and your mass.
Gravitation user can apply any acceleration they want to themselves.

Additionally, when training (TFE) Vin when pushing on ingot of metal climbed ~100 feet in "a few moments" so let's estimate 3 seconds (she has enough time to realize she is slowing down, and observe how the steel-line is getting fainter), so 30 meters in about 3 seconds, while continuously pushing.
To travel the same distance in the same time would require only partial Lashing of strength ~0.67 Earth gravity. (of course the difference being that the greatest speed for Windrunner would be at the end, whereas for Mistborn it would be at the start).
If the Gravitation-user wanted to replicate exactly the outcome for Mistborn, they could simply use Lashing of 1.3 Earth gravity for first 1.5 seconds, and then just revert the direction of that lashing.

This suggests that Gravitation user can replicate the strength of pushes/pulls for movement purposes, and can do so quite easily in fact.
 

Edited January 26, 2023 by therunner
typo

[alder24]

13 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Does shardplate being immune to heat allow the windrunner to negate all of that air resistance though?  What speeds are we talking here?  Perhaps faster than the rock traveling the speed of sound?   

Windrunner with Shardplate would be immune to damage done by friction and air. Shardplate however increases cross sectional area, but can be more aerodynamic so could reduce drag coefficient. However there is still the problem of compressed air in front of WIndrunner. The faster he goes the more compressed and denser the air in front of him becomes, the harder it is to move through it and accelerate even more. There would still be a moment when terminal velocity would decrease after adding more lashings.

However, Windrunners could theoretically manipulate the pressure of the air. We still didn't see much of it in the books, but it is possible that a skilled Windrunner would be able to move in air with the density he wants. Who knows, maybe he could create a vacuum around himself and move without terminal velocity at all?

4 hours ago, therunner said:

So funny thing is that gravitation should not suffer any penalties when accelerating/decelarating. The problems of fast acceleration/deceleration are due to uneven acceleration across the body, and the resulting shear and stress forces in the body (i.e. your skull stops, but your brains does not). However, gravitational acceleration affects all the body parts equally, and so would not lead to such effects.

Well, during free fall you experience 0 g forces - weightlessness. But Kaladin changes directions of the fall, thus changing the vector of acceleration - this should create g forces as inertia doesn't want his body to change the direction of falling, especially when he changes direction of fall to the opposite (from up to down). This is when the stress on the body is coming into play. And that's what happens in the books, not when falling, but when rapidly changing directions of the fall. So I think book is consistent with physics.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

This suggests that Gravitation user can replicate the strength of pushes/pulls for movement purposes, and can do so quite easily in fact.

Nicely explained, I agree.

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Not necessarily, in steel/iron you exert some force which can be modulated (strong/gentle pushes/pulls), so there is some acceleration on you given by the force and your mass.

Vin says that regulating the strength of pushes is increadibly hard

54 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Windrunner with Shardplate would be immune to damage done by friction and air. Shardplate however increases cross sectional area,

With how much control you have over its shape, I'd say that if they really tried, they could reduce the increase in size down to a miniscule difference.

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Vin says that regulating the strength of pushes is increadibly hard

But it can be clearly learned (see what Wax with decades of experience can do), and also regulating how much you burn the metal will help as well.
I do think it is still lesser control than what Gravitation user has, but it is possible.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Well, during free fall you experience 0 g forces - weightlessness. But Kaladin changes directions of the fall, thus changing the vector of acceleration - this should create g forces as inertia doesn't want his body to change the direction of falling, especially when he changes direction of fall to the opposite (from up to down). This is when the stress on the body is coming into play. And that's what happens in the books, not when falling, but when rapidly changing directions of the fall. So I think book is consistent with physics.

But at any given point Kaladin is still weightless (barring effects of air pressure), there is nothing to generate the shear and stress forces.
Changing of direction goes like this:
He falls is one direction, gains speed v, dismisses lashing and creates new one and just gains a new direction of fall, so his resulting speed is vector sum of v and a_l*t.
All inertia does is affect how quickly he can shed his previous speed. Effectively his speed v is like if he was shot out of a e.g. cannon with some speed, its presence does not change that gravity wise he is in free fall.

But since inertial systems are systems moving with some velocity (or more generally, any free falling system is locally inertial), he is still in free fall at every single moment and should not experience g-forces.

It is kind of counter-intuitive because we literally cannot experience anything like this, but at the end of the day if you are in free fall you will not experience g-forces even if you have some previous speed, so e.g. a fighter jet with 'gravitational engine' could pull off maneuvers that are on paper high-g without worrying about damage to its pilots, because every single thing in the plane would experience the same acceleration and so would experience weightlessness.

Edited January 26, 2023 by therunner

[Frustration]

Just now, therunner said:

But it can be clearly learned (see what Wax with decades of experience can do), and also regulating how much you burn the metal will help as well.
I do think it is still lesser control than what Gravitation user has, but it is possible.

Wax can also adjust his weight, so that makes it a lot easier.

[therunner]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Wax can also adjust his weight, so that makes it a lot easier.

Fair point, however I think in a lot of situations when pushing he does not tap/store weight.
And there is also the steel bubble, which I think at this point is not a result of neither resonance nor savantism? But that one is disputable.

[Wits instant noodles]

Spoiler

Argent

Have we seen the resonances of either Wax or Wayne?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, Wax is really good at sculpting bullets and things away from him.

Argent

The bubble.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah and things like this. This is playing with the fact that he is-- Let's just say that the abilities make this happen, and I’ll let you theorize on why, but it's just an enhancement to what he can do.

Argent

I might be wrong, but I thought you said it was because he was becoming a steel savant.

Brandon Sanderson

A savant, yeah, definitely, but this is what this is coming from.

Argent

But being a savant has to do with being really good with one power--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

--and resonances--

Brandon Sanderson

Being a savant has to do with using Investiture a lot, and it's starting to permeate your soul. Like we've ta--

Argent

So he's more a savant with both of--

Brandon Sanderson

He's used them a lot, and they are changing his soul, and so the powers are morphing and changing. Just in slight, little ways. You're not gonna see a whole bunch. But you can imagine these two separate powers are kind of becoming one to him.

Argent

Yeah I can see that. And Wayne?

Brandon Sanderson

So Wayne's is not as obvious. I'll go ahead and RAFO that right now.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

here's a WoB it seems like he's saying he's nearly always using steel

[Wits instant noodles]

k me and @Being of Cacophony calculated the terminal velocity of a rock roughly 1.5 inches in diameter and found the terminal velocity to be about 289.5 m/s (with 30 lashings or 21 gs). It wasn't exact because of a weird rock shape, but it should be close 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Wits instant noodles
sorry for the double post i didn't realize I did that sorry

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, Wits instant noodles said:

k me and @Being of Cacophony calculated the terminal velocity of a rock roughly 1.5 inches in diameter and found the terminal velocity to be about 289.5 m/s (with 30 lashings or 21 gs). It wasn't exact because of a weird rock shape, but it should be close 

It fits within the range of previous calculations, so I would say it's accurate. But what  value of drag coefficient did you use? Did you calculate it for a rock you had?

[Wits instant noodles]

@Being of Cacophony got the drag coefficient I'll ask him or maybe he will respond on here.

[Immortal Platypus]

um... i forgot what the drag coefficient i used was. I think i calculated it for the rock.

[bmcclure7]

On 1/22/2023 at 8:35 PM, TheSurvivorofDeath said:

Gravitation is clearly the better flight ability, since even without the resonance with adhesion it allows flight in any direction in a straight line, and can be increased or decreased in speed and power, allowing for very good directional manipulation and overall flight. Steel can get you some height, as can iron with a good anchor, but they only allow for a certain amount of power to be applied and don’t allow for as good of directional changes, on their own at least. Together steel and iron work pretty well in flight, but not as good as gravitation. Combat wise, however, gravitation is perhaps not the most effective. Without shards, all that it allows you to do is manipulate your enemy to fly in various directions, which isn’t the best killing method in enclosed space. It works in the open with space to throw them into the air, killing them on the way back down, but otherwise it’s not the best. Steel on the other hand allows you to throw projectiles with varying effectiveness at your enemy, and lets you see any source of metal coming. Iron let’s you see metal as well, and can let you pull enemies towards you. So I think steel is more effective as a combat ability, but iron perhaps is not because it’s not nearly as offensive. Gravitation works best with another surge and shards, and isn’t always the best on its own.

There is also durlumin to consider 

[cometaryorbit]

The big advantage iron/steel have is ranged Pushing/Pulling- Gravitation requires the user to touch something to Lash it.

The big advantage Gravitation has is that it can affect non-metals. It takes really exceptional skill (Vin with horseshoes) to get true flight, as opposed to a series of super jumps with coins, out of iron/steel outside of a metal rich (e.g. urban) environment.

Edited February 2, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Frustration]

another advantage is that will gravitation you can bring friends or materials with you, which you really can't with steel.