TheSurvivorofDeath

Gravitation vs. steel/ iron Allomancy flight and combat.

67 posts in this topic

Gravitation is clearly the better flight ability, since even without the resonance with adhesion it allows flight in any direction in a straight line, and can be increased or decreased in speed and power, allowing for very good directional manipulation and overall flight. Steel can get you some height, as can iron with a good anchor, but they only allow for a certain amount of power to be applied and don’t allow for as good of directional changes, on their own at least. Together steel and iron work pretty well in flight, but not as good as gravitation. Combat wise, however, gravitation is perhaps not the most effective. Without shards, all that it allows you to do is manipulate your enemy to fly in various directions, which isn’t the best killing method in enclosed space. It works in the open with space to throw them into the air, killing them on the way back down, but otherwise it’s not the best. Steel on the other hand allows you to throw projectiles with varying effectiveness at your enemy, and lets you see any source of metal coming. Iron let’s you see metal as well, and can let you pull enemies towards you. So I think steel is more effective as a combat ability, but iron perhaps is not because it’s not nearly as offensive. Gravitation works best with another surge and shards, and isn’t always the best on its own.

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You can apply multiple lashings to an object.

Say you have a rock and you apply 30 lashings to it, then it begins accelerating in the desired direction at 205m/s/s given Rosharan gravity.

In ten seconds the rock will be moving at 2,050m/s.

For reference the speed of sound is 343m/s

Edited by Frustration
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14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You can apply multiple lashings to an object.

Say you have a rock and you apply 30 lashings to it, then it begins accelerating in the desired direction at 205m/s/s given Rosharan gravity.

In ten seconds the rock will be moving at 2,050m/s.

For reference the speed of sound is 343m/s

Yes you can have a high speed projectile, but if you’re not close enough to the target the can move out of the way. Same does apply to steel, but it’s a lot easier to send a large number of projectiles, and change the direction they come from just by moving while you push them. Both abilities are very powerful. And I may have a slight bias towards steel Allomancy because I just like the power better and like reading about it’s use more.

Edited by TheSurvivorofDeath
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Szeth murdered 2 Shardbearers and dozens of soldiers with halfshards using just gravitation in closed space. 2 Shardbearers with Shardplate and Shardblade killed with gravitation surge. Because of that I don't know if I can say that A-steel/iron is better in combat than surge of gravitation. These are 2 different fighting styles and both, if used properly, can be equally as deadly. Allomancy seems definitely easier to master and use.

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12 hours ago, TheSurvivorofDeath said:

Yes you can have a high speed projectile, but if you’re not close enough to the target the can move out of the way. Same does apply to steel, but it’s a lot easier to send a large number of projectiles, and change the direction they come from just by moving while you push them. Both abilities are very powerful. And I may have a slight bias towards steel Allomancy because I just like the power better and like reading about it’s use more.

I can sympathize with the bias towards allomancy.  Gravitation is just a different beast from a different reality.  They both have awesome showings in the books.  

Szeth running on the walls and ceilings cutting people down and ripping off a chunk of wall to kill that guy was epic.  Steel and iron alone would never be able to rip off the balcony or touch an enemy and send them flying upwards to have them land in a heap a few moments later.   Obviously gravitation flying is awesome.  So much more height and potential speed.  Plus all of the bonuses of having stormlight to heal you when a bug smashes in the case of a chicken strike haha.  

Steel and iron have the benefit of being truly ranged.  Vin used a beltbuckle to kill 20 men and never had to be within melee range.  Steel and iron can break ranks of enemy soldiers from range so long as they use metal weapons.  In vs it is near useless because shards are immune to pushes and pulls but where the radiants have to touch the enemy ranks to throw them back or pull all arrows towards a single location... Vin would have singlehandedly pushed all the arrows back into the parshendi on the bridge runs... 

I genuinely think both magics have their place in the cosmere and I genuinely think both planets have countless examples of where the other would have been helpful beyond measure during key battles.  

If I were a radiant fighting the fused I think I would be just as pleased to have a mistborn beside me as Vin would have been to have a windrunner drop down in the middle of fighting Ruin.  

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3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Szeth murdered 2 Shardbearers and dozens of soldiers with halfshards using just gravitation in closed space. 2 Shardbearers with Shardplate and Shardblade killed with gravitation surge. Because of that I don't know if I can say that A-steel/iron is better in combat than surge of gravitation. These are 2 different fighting styles and both, if used properly, can be equally as deadly. Allomancy seems definitely easier to master and use.

That was with a shardblade, which was specifically mentioned.

14 hours ago, TheSurvivorofDeath said:

Gravitation is clearly the better flight ability, since even without the resonance with adhesion it allows flight in any direction in a straight line, and can be increased or decreased in speed and power, allowing for very good directional manipulation and overall flight. Steel can get you some height, as can iron with a good anchor, but they only allow for a certain amount of power to be applied and don’t allow for as good of directional changes, on their own at least. Together steel and iron work pretty well in flight, but not as good as gravitation. Combat wise, however, gravitation is perhaps not the most effective. Without shards, all that it allows you to do is manipulate your enemy to fly in various directions, which isn’t the best killing method in enclosed space. It works in the open with space to throw them into the air, killing them on the way back down, but otherwise it’s not the best. Steel on the other hand allows you to throw projectiles with varying effectiveness at your enemy, and lets you see any source of metal coming. Iron let’s you see metal as well, and can let you pull enemies towards you. So I think steel is more effective as a combat ability, but iron perhaps is not because it’s not nearly as offensive. Gravitation works best with another surge and shards, and isn’t always the best on its own.

 

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10 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

That was with a shardblade, which was specifically mentioned.

Szeth dismissed his Honorblade as soon as soldiers with half-shards and Shardbearers came in. He killed all of them with Gravitation surge.

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Allomancy is better in close quarters, and Gravitation is better at longer distances. 

Allomancy is better when there is lots of metals nearby (i.e. Luthadel), and Gravitation is better when it is open air and less metals.

Allomancy includes both pushes and pulls, whereas Gravitation is more powerful but once it leaves your hand, it's gone

I feel like it is the difference between a dagger and a spear. Both are better in some situations, and both are worse in some situations

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1 minute ago, Primeival Chaos said:

Allomancy is better in close quarters, and Gravitation is better at longer distances.

Could you explain more?

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37 minutes ago, Primeival Chaos said:

Allomancy is better in close quarters, and Gravitation is better at longer distances. 

Allomancy is better when there is lots of metals nearby (i.e. Luthadel), and Gravitation is better when it is open air and less metals.

Allomancy includes both pushes and pulls, whereas Gravitation is more powerful but once it leaves your hand, it's gone

I feel like it is the difference between a dagger and a spear. Both are better in some situations, and both are worse in some situations

I would have swapped that first bit. 

I think gravitation is far more dangerous close range.  I think steel and iron are best when used in the mid / longer ranges.  

Gravitation really needs to have the person using it touch the object they want to have impact on.  Spells don't get closer range than touch. 

Steel and iron are great for misdirecting metal only.... but they can do it at a range.  So long as the cosmere doesn't phase out metal for everything then steel and iron will have a place.  Steel and iron take the advantage for being able to more finetune the effects they have on things (Kelsier spinning rods, Vin slautering 20 with a belt buckle never needing to touch or be touched by any of the people nor the buckle, Wax pushing on specific parts of a bullet...)

An allomancer dropped into an army all wielding metal could clear a large path quickly... though pewter is almost certainly required or a form of healing.  

A gravitation user on their own would have a really really hard time clearing space in the middle of an army minus shards.  

I would actually say dropping a mistborn into the middle of an army could be more damaging to that armies forward progress than even a 4th heightening radiant.  So long as that army is using metal weaponry the mistborn will be able to cause mass chaos.  With access to era 2 metals you could easily drink more metals after a duralumin push using bendalloy and then playing again.  

I do think the radiant could cause mass disturbances in the form of tumbling boulders through enemy lines... and this could be done from a range with gravitation but like you said, once its gone its gone.  Steel and iron offer much more fine control when being used at a range on the world around them.  

 

Transporting allies in mass goes to gravitation hands down.  Allomancy is a selfish magic system.  

Flying top speeds are the gravitation users.  I would say steel and iron will always eccelerate you faster and I think, when in the setting appropriate with metal around you, I think mistborn may have an advantage in quick changes of direction and motion.  If the anchors allow it mistborn maneuverability is among the best in the cosmere.  And you don't have to come up to speed at a rate of falling based on your lashings.  Steel just goes like being shot from a gun.  

 

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21 hours ago, Frustration said:

Could you explain more?

 

19 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I would have swapped that first bit. 

Sorry, I guess that was unclear. I meant in flight or moving distances

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26 minutes ago, Primeival Chaos said:

 

Sorry, I guess that was unclear. I meant in flight or moving distances

I still fail to see how steel beats gravitation, even under those situations.

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48 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I still fail to see how steel beats gravitation, even under those situations.

You can more suddenly change directions and have quicker boosts of mobility compared to Lashings. It is also more efficient with the Investiture you use than stacking multiple Lashings

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4 minutes ago, Primeival Chaos said:

You can more suddenly change directions

Actually Lashings would be better as not only can you adjust in directions where there are no metal anchors you can also use the wind to make minute adjustments without investiture

5 minutes ago, Primeival Chaos said:

 have quicker boosts of mobility compared to Lashings.

No, not really.

5 minutes ago, Primeival Chaos said:

It is also more efficient with the Investiture you use than stacking multiple Lashings

Well, maybe, Steel and Iron both burn really fast.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

The longest lasting of the Allomantic metals is actually copper, which is used by Smokers to hide Allomancy. Tin is second, however. Steel and Iron are actually rather quick, but since they're generally used in bursts, it's hard to notice. Both brass and zinc are medium, as is bronze. Pewter burns the fastest of the basic eight, though atium and gold both burn faster than it does.

In my mind, it's related to how much 'work' the metal has to do. That's why pewter, steel, and iron burn so quickly. A lot of weight and power is getting thrown around, while copper only has to do something simple. However, I never really set any of these things hard-fast.

And, only atium is really all that rare. Because of the value of the metals, the noble houses expended a lot of resources finding and exploiting mines to produce the metals. This resulted in a slightly higher value for most of them as opposed to our world, but not really noticeably so, because Allomancers really don't need that much metal. Even fast burning metals, like pewter, are generally only swallowed in very small amounts. (i.e. A small bit goes a long way.)

TWG Posts (July 31, 2006)

 

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The benifit of Steel/iron is you can keep one on a low burn, and only truly burn it when you need to, negating the speed effect.

That said, I think that someone with windrunner level gravitation can beat someone with iron & steel, assuming no other benefits or running out of investiture, in any open air fight, unless they can push/pull on trace elements, in which case it is an instant 180. With healing and trace metals, it might be a fair fight, but I would have to guess the gravitation wins again. Perhaps if they had pewter, it would be fair (either no trace nor healing or both), but at that point it is basically era 1 mistborn without atium vs a surgebinder. Basically, if the allomancer pushes/pulls directly on a lashed item (or item resting on a lashed item) in the opposite direction of a lashed item, it becomes a perfect anchor, and launches the allomancer instead of the projectile. But if the allomancer can mess with the inside of the non-healing surgebinder, they are going to be anialated before they could bludgeon the allomancer to death.

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2 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

The benifit of Steel/iron is you can keep one on a low burn, and only truly burn it when you need to, negating the speed effect.

That said, I think that someone with windrunner level gravitation can beat someone with iron & steel, assuming no other benefits or running out of investiture, in any open air fight, unless they can push/pull on trace elements, in which case it is an instant 180. With healing and trace metals, it might be a fair fight, but I would have to guess the gravitation wins again. Perhaps if they had pewter, it would be fair (either no trace nor healing or both), but at that point it is basically era 1 mistborn without atium vs a surgebinder. Basically, if the allomancer pushes/pulls directly on a lashed item (or item resting on a lashed item) in the opposite direction of a lashed item, it becomes a perfect anchor, and launches the allomancer instead of the projectile. But if the allomancer can mess with the inside of the non-healing surgebinder, they are going to be anialated before they could bludgeon the allomancer to death.

Technically if you are comparing iron and steel then the option is either a hemalurgist or a mistborn vs someone with gravitation.  Which is worse I don't know?   You certainly don't want to go down the rabbit hole of stacking powers back and forth.  

Gravitation vs just iron and steel is also not much of discussion because then it comes to having stormlight and all that that brings. 

I am convinced that stormlight with no surge access at all is still one of the best single abilities in the cosmere.  Atium might be the only metal that beats it on its own in the allomancy world.  

I just don't know that someone with just gravitation would actually come out on top vs someone with access to both iron and steel.  To assume a hemalurgist stopped at one spike for the fight and there is nothing else that the allomancer gets is kind of stacked one way.  To assume they have more than 1 spike or are a mistborn basically stacks it the other way.

If the option were given to me the gravitation surge vs iron and steel allomancy I would go with allomancy all day.  Since even a single surge comes with perfected body and infinite healing you almost have to go with gravitation.  Not because of gravitation but because stormlight is imba to the max.  

However I take mistborn over windrunner pretty much anyday.  Even if they lose a 1v1.  Way to much versatility in what you can do with the powerset. 

Edited by Tamriel Wolfsbaine
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On 1/22/2023 at 7:46 PM, Frustration said:

You can apply multiple lashings to an object.

Say you have a rock and you apply 30 lashings to it, then it begins accelerating in the desired direction at 205m/s/s given Rosharan gravity.

In ten seconds the rock will be moving at 2,050m/s.

For reference the speed of sound is 343m/s

Wouldn't you hit terminal velocity before that? I have no clue but since its just gravity pulling it it has to eventually has to reach terminal velocity again I could be compleatly wrong

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9 minutes ago, Wits instant noodles said:

Wouldn't you hit terminal velocity before that? I have no clue but since its just gravity pulling it it has to eventually has to reach terminal velocity again I could be compleatly wrong

Terminal velocity has a lot of factors: surface area, mass of the object, density of the air. etc. And most importantly for this discussion: the force of gravity.

Whenever gravity increases so does Terminal velocity.

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just plugged it into a terminal velocity calculator using about the size and mass of small stone and it said your terminal velocity would be about 50m/s witch is about 112 mph

the calculations could be slightly off based on how bug of a rock your doing.

Edited by Wits instant noodles
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2 minutes ago, Wits instant noodles said:

just plugged it into a terminal velocity calculator using about the size and mass of small stone and it said your terminal velocity would be about 50m/s witch is about 112 mph

How on earth did you calculate the Cross section area?

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Square the radius times pie again just used what I thought would be roughly average size and mass for a rock about 2 inches in diameter but if you give me a couple hours ill go find an actual rock and calculate it off that.

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7 minutes ago, Wits instant noodles said:

just plugged it into a terminal velocity calculator using about the size and mass of small stone and it said your terminal velocity would be about 50m/s witch is about 112 mph

the calculations could be slightly off based on how bug of a rock your doing.

This is probably the terminal velocity at earth gravity. If you change the gravity (e.g. by multiple lashings) it will change.

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Na I uped it to thirty gs though do we know the air resistance on roshar is different from earths cause that could also have messed up my calculations

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Just now, Wits instant noodles said:

Na I uped it to thirty gs though do we know the air resistance on roshar is different from earths cause that could also have messed up my calculations

Roshar's atmoshpere has a higher oxygen content, so it would be less dense.

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