Hoid and his habit of calling shard vessels by their name

[newindianclassic]

So, maybe this is a train of thought that won't really go anywhere, but Hoid frequently (I want to say always, but to be safe I'll stick with frequently) calls shard vessels by their name, not the shard they hold. We see this pretty often. 

So, here's me putting on my aluminum foil cap...

Is Hoid consciously thinking of them as their vessels on purpose? We have a few examples of things existing in the way they do because people perceive them that way (spren, as one example). Is Hoid doing this to, even slightly, combat the fact that vessels eventually become more like the shard they hold? 

[lacrossedeamon]

That’s a good watsonian read on it. Doylist view might be that it’s a method to keep Brandon from spoiling stuff. When Hoid says Sazed we don’t know if he’s Harmony or Discord.

[AquaRegia]

I think it's mostly to remind us that Hoid has known all these people since, well, they were still only people.  He had personal relationships with them before they became Vessels.  He was there, at the Shattering, trying to talk them out of it.  However, if thinking of them as people serves to reduce their power, or lessen the effect of the Shardic Intent, even a tiny bit, I'm sure Hoid is all for it.

Interestingly, the only current Vessels Hoid doesn't have long history with are

Spoiler

Taravangian

and, to a lesser extent,

Spoiler

Sazed.

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by AquaRegia

[lacrossedeamon]

1 hour ago, AquaRegia said:

He was there, at the Shattering, trying to talk them out of it. 

I don’t think that’s true. I think he was a willing participant at the least the quote in TotES implies as much. I think him not picking up a Shard is a separate matter from not wanting to shatter Adonalsium.

[StormingTexan]

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I don’t think that’s true. I think he was a willing participant at the least the quote in TotES implies as much. I think him not picking up a Shard is a separate matter from not wanting to shatter Adonalsium.

This WoB implies he was at least a passive accomplice so agree he was not trying to talk them out of it. 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

Did Hoid think of the Shattering as necessary?

Brandon Sanderson

*pause* Kind of.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

 

 

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

12 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

Interestingly, the only current Vessels Hoid doesn't have long history with are

  Reveal hidden contents

Taravangian

and, to a lesser extent,

  Reveal hidden contents

Do we know that all the other shards were never held by someone other than the original vessel? Cause if not,

Spoiler

That would make Kelsier the first person to take up a shard other than the original vessels. And that just seems fundamentally incorrect in a way I can't explain. I suppose the Lord Ruler did partially hold preservation before him, but Leras was still partially alive at the time so it wasn't the same. And similarly it just seems odd to me that the first time shards passed hands in a permanent way, we got a double shard with Sazed. But that doesn't mean it isn't true

 

[Ashbringer]

1 hour ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Do we know that all the other shards were never held by someone other than the original vessel? Cause if not,

  Hide contents

That would make Kelsier the first person to take up a shard other than the original vessels. And that just seems fundamentally incorrect in a way I can't explain. I suppose the Lord Ruler did partially hold preservation before him, but Leras was still partially alive at the time so it wasn't the same. And similarly it just seems odd to me that the first time shards passed hands in a permanent way, we got a double shard with Sazed. But that doesn't mean it isn't true

 

I think we had a WoB about there being Shards (besides Harmony and pre-RoW) about Shards not held by original Vessels, but it doesn’t exclude Shattered Shards. 

But all the Vessels would know it’s a possibility. They did sort of kill Adonalsium, and Odium killed a few of them and then had to take specific steps to stop someone else from Ascending.

[Frustration]

8 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Do we know that all the other shards were never held by someone other than the original vessel? Cause if not,

  Reveal hidden contents

That would make Kelsier the first person to take up a shard other than the original vessels. And that just seems fundamentally incorrect in a way I can't explain. I suppose the Lord Ruler did partially hold preservation before him, but Leras was still partially alive at the time so it wasn't the same. And similarly it just seems odd to me that the first time shards passed hands in a permanent way, we got a double shard with Sazed. But that doesn't mean it isn't true

 

there is at least one other

Spoiler

Questioner

Are there currently any Shards, besides Harmony, that are not held by their original Vessel?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

[lacrossedeamon]

29 minutes ago, Frustration said:

there is at least one other

  Hide contents

Questioner

Are there currently any Shards, besides Harmony, that are not held by their original Vessel?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

I don’t know how lawful evil Brandon likes to get but technically with the wording of that question Brandon’s answer could refer to Dominion, Devotion, Ambition all of which are not being held by their original Vessels.

[teknopathetic]

7 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I think we had a WoB about there being Shards (besides Harmony and pre-RoW) about Shards not held by original Vessels, but it doesn’t exclude Shattered Shards. 

But all the Vessels would know it’s a possibility. They did sort of kill Adonalsium, and Odium killed a few of them and then had to take specific steps to stop someone else from Ascending.

I always wondered in Endowment had changed vessels. Partly because the magic on Nalthis seems to have just started one day out of the blue, and also because the shard Endowment may want to be given to others in some intent-like sense.

Edited January 18, 2023 by teknopathetic

[lacrossedeamon]

16 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I always wondered in Endowment had changed vessels. Partly because the magic on Nalthis seems to have just started one day out of the blue, and also because the shard Endowment may want to be given to others in some intent-like sense.

Her comments to Hoid in the letters imply that she was part of the original 16.

[AquaRegia]

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I don’t know how lawful evil Brandon likes to get but technically with the wording of that question Brandon’s answer could refer to Dominion, Devotion, Ambition all of which are not being held by their original Vessels.

That's a great point.  I think he frequently delights in being lawful evil in these situations. 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Questioner

Are there currently any Shards, besides Harmony, that are not held by their original Vessel?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

If only that question had instead been phrased "Are there currently any Shards, besides Harmony, being held by someone who is not the original Vessel?"

We MAY have gotten a different answer... although there are still six Shards we know very little (or nothing) about, so a "yes" to that question still wouldn't necessarily tell us anything about the Vessels we do know of.

Regarding Hoid's opinions of - and behavior at - the Shattering, it's interesting that I got an incorrect impression from TotES, specifically my recollection of the "it's for your own good" passage.  I have not gone back to read it yet (I'm a n00b with these electronic versions)... if someone could quote that paragraph, it might help clear my head.

Edited January 18, 2023 by AquaRegia
wrong number

[StormingTexan]

@AquaRegia 

“

Quote

 

So far as I can tell,” he said, his voice growing very soft. “I’m sorry, Tress. I can’t let you face the Sorceress. I can’t. For your own good, you see.” Ah, those words. I’ve heard those words. I’ve said those words. The words that proclaim, in bald-faced arrogance, “I don’t trust you to make your own decisions.” The words we pretend will soften the blow, yet instead layer condescension on top of already existent pain. Like dirt on a corpse. Oh yes. I’ve said those words. I said them with sixteen other people, in fact.

Brandon Sanderson. Tress_of_the_Emerald_Sea_by_Brandon_Sanderson_for_Kindle (Kindle Locations 4676-4680). Kindle Edition. 

 

 

[Inquisitor #5]

Adding to the above:

Quote

That is probably the craziest, most reckless thing I’ve ever  
heard someone say—and I was literally part of a secret plot to  
kill God.

-Tress, chapter 39

 

 

¤_¤

[AquaRegia]

@StormingTexan , @Inquisitor #5 , thank you!

Yes, the quotes there definitely imply that Hoid and the 16 are saying "we're doing this for your own good" to Adonalsium.

"This is going to hurt me a lot more than it's going to hurt you... but it's going to kill you."  Anyone else get that vibe?

[StormingTexan]

@AquaRegia  Yep along those lines. Basically "We are doing this for your own good".  Now we just need to wait a couple decades or so to find out why they thought that 

 

 

[Leuthie]

While we already knew that Hoid and most, if not all, of the 16 are now at odds about their decision, this little clip is the most direct that Hoid has been about it. He's telling us directly that the Shattering was caused by hubris and really shouldn't have happened; well, as direct as an implied statement can be. Heavy handed implication, if you will.

I think we can pretty much confirm that Hoid is trying to put Adonalsium back together.

[RedBlue]

I don’t think we can read too much into Hoid’s ‘for your own good’ comments.

It could mean that he regrets the Shattering and his decisions surrounding it. Or it could just mean that he recognises his own arrogance, but still thinks he did the right thing.

And I don’t think it’s necessarily the case that the ‘for your own good’ line was spoken to Adonalsium. We still don’t know if Adonalsium was a person you could have a conversation with. Hoid +16 could have been speaking to a different faction of humans/dragons/others who wouldn’t have wanted the Shattering to happen.

[Leuthie]

11 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

I don’t think we can read too much into Hoid’s ‘for your own good’ comments.

It could mean that he regrets the Shattering and his decisions surrounding it. Or it could just mean that he recognises his own arrogance, but still thinks he did the right thing.

And I don’t think it’s necessarily the case that the ‘for your own good’ line was spoken to Adonalsium. We still don’t know if Adonalsium was a person you could have a conversation with. Hoid +16 could have been speaking to a different faction of humans/dragons/others who wouldn’t have wanted the Shattering to happen.

Possible it's a misdirection. 

But "with sixteen other people" is pretty clear who was speaking and who they were speaking to (and the conversation could have simply been the action of the Shattering; no need for Adonalsium to be a conversational type). The situation in the story and the way Hoid describes the phrase heavily (like lead gloves heavily) implies the hubris. I'm not sure how we can't read too much into that clip.

[RedBlue]

31 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

But "with sixteen other people" is pretty clear who was speaking and who they were speaking to (and the conversation could have simply been the action of the Shattering; no need for Adonalsium to be a conversational type). The situation in the story and the way Hoid describes the phrase heavily (like lead gloves heavily) implies the hubris. I'm not sure how we can't read too much into that clip.

For sure, I’m not arguing that this isn’t a window into Hoid’s mindset. He definitely is acknowledging his own hubris (and the hubris of the 16 original vessels).

I just think that extrapolating any further than that is iffy.

[Bremen]

On 1/17/2023 at 1:27 PM, newindianclassic said:

So, maybe this is a train of thought that won't really go anywhere, but Hoid frequently (I want to say always, but to be safe I'll stick with frequently) calls shard vessels by their name, not the shard they hold. We see this pretty often.

I noticed this in Tress when referring to Sazed. I assumed this was because Brandon couldn't let him say Discord.

[Lost Lobo]

On 1/18/2023 at 5:36 PM, Leuthie said:

Possible it's a misdirection. 

But "with sixteen other people" is pretty clear who was speaking and who they were speaking to (and the conversation could have simply been the action of the Shattering; no need for Adonalsium to be a conversational type). The situation in the story and the way Hoid describes the phrase heavily (like lead gloves heavily) implies the hubris. I'm not sure how we can't read too much into that clip.

That was how I took it, though, I think there is an additional layer:

IIRC, at one point in the letters, we learn that Hoid had the chance to pick up a shard, and refused. It seems likely he saw Shard-holding as something that was too restrictive, too controlling, and too likely to end up owning/overtaking the vessel, and wanted to retain and maximize his freedom of action.

Basically, Hoid knew becoming a shard wasn't going to be all it was cracked up to be, and let/encouraged 16 other people take up that infinite set of powers-as-punishments instead, in order to achieve a goal.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Lost Lobo