How well would various cosmere planets and magic systems stand up to the military might of a modern earth

[SingleSoul Noble-Blooded]

I think the outcome would depend on the distance of the engagement. How much incoming fire would the radiants have do dodge (or avoid in other ways) before they could close to striking distance?

Any order of radiants would have trouble getting through air strikes and artillery barrages before being met with direct fire from tanks and machine guns. But if we are talking a radiant / tank duel at 20 paces – then most orders of radiant would probably win.

In a “real” conflict one of the biggest risks for Earth would probably be radiant spies, assassins and saboteurs. Imagine strike teams of radiants targeting key installations.

And if Scadrial has access to Kandra… Imagine replacing some of Earth’s leaders with access to nuclear weapons.

[Frustration Herald]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

It takes less time than you think, tank turret can fully rotate in 9 seconds.

Being able to put the gun in any position and the ability to accurately hit a target moving towards you at 200mph are rather different, especially if they have to do multiple targets at once.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

You're kidding me? AA-missiles? Air-air missiles? Almost all missiles contain some form of guidance and control mechanism. That's how they stay on course. Missiles have speed of Mach 5, ICBM of Mach 23. Reverse lashings just won't do anything to them. 

Only 14 non-European countries have balistic missiles(around 35 total), and only 25 countries have cruise missiles. That's a pretty significant minority. Now the countries that do have them have a lot, but my statement that most countries don't have them remains the case.

[alder24 Kalad's Phantom]

Just now, Frustration said:

Being able to put the gun in any position and the ability to accurately hit a target moving towards you at 200mph are rather different, especially if they have to do multiple targets at once.

Yes, that's a difference but tanks not only have computerized fire control but also machine guns on them. And if there are multiple targets, there will also be multiple tanks with infantry and IFV. Tanks are not alone on battlefield.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Only 14 non-European countries have balistic missiles(around 35 total), and only 25 countries have cruise missiles. That's a pretty significant minority. Now the countries that do have them have a lot, but my statement that most countries don't have them remains the case.

Again, many anti-aircraft systems are missile based, most probably. Missiles that are attached to jets - yup, they can correct its own course to hit any given target. Not to mention manpads - those are rockets fired by infantry that can correct its course to hit the target - famous Javelin or TOW. They are not fully self guided, but they all can change directions during flight - that's what matters in this case. Reverse lashing won't work if the rocket is guided by laser beam, heat signature, radar, optics, wire or whatever is used - it will correct itself to remain on course and hit Radiant. 

Moreover missiles move at such speeds that reverse lashing won't have time to change their course. 

Not to mention, Reverse lashing requires touch to work, Windrunners can do it only to things he touches, so lashing a rocket to a door frame he stands next to would be just as harmful.

[Frustration Herald]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Yes, that's a difference but tanks not only have computerized fire control but also machine guns on them. And if there are multiple targets, there will also be multiple tanks with infantry and IFV. Tanks are not alone on battlefield.

There aren't six billion tanks though.

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Not to mention, Reverse lashing requires touch to work, Windrunners can do it only to things he touches, so lashing a rocket to a door frame he stands next to would be just as harmful.

Honorblade users need to be touching it, Windrunners don't.

Kaladin slapped a reverse lashing on a wooden brush and then lowwered it down to grab a spanreed.

[alder24 Kalad's Phantom]

Just now, Frustration said:

There aren't six billion tanks though.

I already talked what I think about it.

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Honorblade users need to be touching it, Windrunners don't.

Kaladin slapped a reverse lashing on a wooden brush and then lowwered it down to grab a spanreed.

Was that reverse lashing or was it an adhesive full lashing? Quote? Coppermind, RoW Ars Arcanum - "The Surgebinder must maintain contact with the object to Reverse Lash it"

[Frustration Herald]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Was that reverse lashing or was it an adhesive full lashing? 

It was a reverse lashing.

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Quote?

I'll get it to you when I get home.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine Arbiter]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Yes, that's a difference but tanks not only have computerized fire control but also machine guns on them. And if there are multiple targets, there will also be multiple tanks with infantry and IFV. Tanks are not alone on battlefield.

Again, many anti-aircraft systems are missile based, most probably. Missiles that are attached to jets - yup, they can correct its own course to hit any given target. Not to mention manpads - those are rockets fired by infantry that can correct its course to hit the target - famous Javelin or TOW. They are not fully self guided, but they all can change directions during flight - that's what matters in this case. Reverse lashing won't work if the rocket is guided by laser beam, heat signature, radar, optics, wire or whatever is used - it will correct itself to remain on course and hit Radiant. 

Moreover missiles move at such speeds that reverse lashing won't have time to change their course. 

Not to mention, Reverse lashing requires touch to work, Windrunners can do it only to things he touches, so lashing a rocket to a door frame he stands next to would be just as harmful.

So humans learned quickly to build plastic guns vs magneto.  How long before they figure out aluminum weaponry against anyone with healing capability?  

Being invaded gives humans the upper hand no matter what. Mobilizing people to ramp up production would only work better and faster now than it has in previous wars.  If aluminum was discovered to be an aid in this battle we would ramp up production and have aluminum weapons and ammunition in soldiers hands so fast it ain't funny.  

 

[alder24 Kalad's Phantom]

7 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So humans learned quickly to build plastic guns vs magneto.  How long before they figure out aluminum weaponry against anyone with healing capability?  

Being invaded gives humans the upper hand no matter what. Mobilizing people to ramp up production would only work better and faster now than it has in previous wars.  If aluminum was discovered to be an aid in this battle we would ramp up production and have aluminum weapons and ammunition in soldiers hands so fast it ain't funny.  

Aluminum is already used like everywhere, That includes weapons and missiles. So with surveillance covering most of the Earth, it might not take them long. Against Scadrial they would figure it out very fast.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine Arbiter]

28 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Aluminum is already used like everywhere, That includes weapons and missiles. So with surveillance covering most of the Earth, it might not take them long. Against Scadrial they would figure it out very fast.

I think the aluminums effect against healing would become apparent pretty quickly.  In fact with all the things aluminum is in I imagine shrapnel just about anywhere would contain some amount of it.  Can't heal around it... its random who will get a shard lodged in the wrong spot but it will cull magic healers quickly. 

[Tglassy Soulcaster]

If the 'war' or 'invasion' lasted any length of time, as Intel gets in regarsing how this stuff works, as we pick up Spheres of Stormlight and catch Mistings and Ferrings and interrogate them as to how their powers work, we'd wind  up finding ways to duplicate it, or at the very least block it.  Blocking Investiture is pretty easy, actually.  Just make Aluminum.  Lots of it.  And you don't even need to make everything out of it. Just aluminum foil works.  it's in every household.  It isn't expensive to make.  how long before we weaponize it?  

Our understanding of science is too far beyond the cosemere, and their understanding of their own magics isn't far enough along to counter it.  We can split the atom.  Think about that. We can split the atom ON PURPOSE.  Yes, Scadrial can split harmonion and accomplish something similar, but it was an accident and requires an extremely limited material to do so.  We can do it and power our cities with it.  We have interlinked forms of communication so vast and integrated with society that a bunch of fans of an author's work can all visit and argue with each other over theoratical, fictional physics, from the quiet of their own homes on little screens that glow with an inner light.  I can call someone on the other side of the world and talk to them in real time with no discernable delay.  Roshar has spanreads.  Oh joy.  

[Frustration Herald]

34 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

If the 'war' or 'invasion' lasted any length of time, as Intel gets in regarsing how this stuff works, as we pick up Spheres of Stormlight and catch Mistings and Ferrings and interrogate them as to how their powers work, we'd wind  up finding ways to duplicate it, or at the very least block it.  Blocking Investiture is pretty easy, actually.  Just make Aluminum.  Lots of it.  And you don't even need to make everything out of it. Just aluminum foil works.  it's in every household.  It isn't expensive to make.  how long before we weaponize it?  

Our understanding of science is too far beyond the cosemere, and their understanding of their own magics isn't far enough along to counter it.  We can split the atom.  Think about that. We can split the atom ON PURPOSE.  Yes, Scadrial can split harmonion and accomplish something similar, but it was an accident and requires an extremely limited material to do so.  We can do it and power our cities with it.  We have interlinked forms of communication so vast and integrated with society that a bunch of fans of an author's work can all visit and argue with each other over theoratical, fictional physics, from the quiet of their own homes on little screens that glow with an inner light.  I can call someone on the other side of the world and talk to them in real time with no discernable delay.  Roshar has spanreads.  Oh joy.  

... I realize you can't see this, but Microkenisis allows you to split an atom, and Cohesion could probably do the same thing.

[A Simple Pilgrim Bridgeman]

Alright, this is interesting so I'll give my take. 

Normal Soldiers:

Overview

First off the non-magic soldiers. Everyone except Taldain is entirely irrelevant. We have WOG that Taldain has modern earth tech, and is the most advanced current cosmere world, but we don't know how their militaries are structured and what equipment they have (good organization and leadership is as important as technology) so it's hard to asses how strong they are. They could have NATO level equipment and doctrine, large budgets, and experienced commanders, and thus be above any military on Earth bar the US, or they could be running around with corrupt and kleptocratic post-soviet style militaries which would struggle even against lower tech enemies.

That comment about organization being as important as tech now leads to the greatest irony of the cosmere worlds we have the most information on.

Rosharan Military

Roshar actually has spectacular military organization, doctrine, and leadership. They are currently fighting a global war with hundreds of thousands of active high quality troops across a multitude of fronts. There could be many hundreds of thousands fighting just in Alethkar, a country whose military organization, recruitment system, and professionalism resembles the peak of the 19th century. However all these troops are running around with pre-gunpowder technology. I don't want to call it medieval or late renaissance, because the armies and organization and metallurgy and standardized equipment really doesn't resemble history until the 1500s, but by then military doctrine increasingly revolved around gunpowder - the best doctrine of that time was the Tercio, which was composed of roughly 1/3rd cavalry, 1/3rd melee infantry, 1/3rd musket men. No amount of good organization or leadership can make sword and bow armed soldiers relevant on the modern battlefield. Casualties in anything but pure guerrilla warfare will probably be in the 1:100 range. Seriously though, the soldiers of Roshar are disciplined, professional, and intelligent. It says a lot for an army to be able to coherently march through rough terrain for a week, then fight a battle outnumbered and tired in harsh conditions against an enemy which they have never seen before and can shoot lightning out of their fingers. A real medieval or even most renaissance armies would have fallen apart in the march, or shattered when faced with those circumstances, but the Alethkari fought and would have probably won. 

North Scadrian 'Military'

Meanwhile Scadrial has decent enough tech even by modern standards, WW1 level stuff, though they can probably push a bit further due to metallurgy being the most advanced field in Scadrial for cultural reasons. Troops armed with grenades, rifles, and eventually the machine gun, along with primitive vehicles and rail-road supply lines could fight in the current world, most conflicts today look more like that than the current fighting in Ukraine which is relatively high tech. The problem is that .... there is no army! There's no military structure *at all*, there's not a single person who has spent time thinking about what a fight involving more than 50 participants looks like, of how to manage supply lines and tactics for an army of a million, which is what the Elendel basin could reasonably assemble based on WW1 mobilizations, and a population of 15 million (though I'd argue that their population should realistically be closer to 40-50). The final empire at least had some military understanding, and the wars that went down in era 1 were relatively sophisticated, but era 2 just doesn't compare. Without a shard's help or outside influence, it will take decades or even a century or two to build up a decent military doctrine. Seriously, they are worse off than the militia centric army of the United States in the war of 1812, while the Alethkari have organization that is closer to the Napoleonic. 

Nalthis

Nalthis meanwhile ... they seem to be an actual normal late medieval society, around the 1300s I'd argue. So lacking in both technology and state organization to create and use a modern military. Without COPIOUS outside influence, it would take centuries to get them up to a level that can even tickle modern militaries. I'll quickly mention lifeless here, in that in their current form, they are not really more useful against modern soldiers, as a few bullet holes will drain them of ichor-alcohol quickly enough for them to prove only slightly more resilient than a normal human (which is the squishiest thing by far on the modern battlefield). They make a lot more sense when in the context of melee weapons and armor where major wounds are hard to create and thus they can fight endlessly, and have logistical advantages

Sel

I don't know enough about regular soldiers in Sel for me to really talk about them.  

Potential for improvement 

Fundamentally that means, I think that once Roshar gets their hands on guns and the theory behind them, they'll be able to integrate them into the military and bring themselves up to an 1870s level quite rapidly, within years I'd say. Scadrial meanwhile will need a while to build up a military worthy of the name in order to begin gathering enough experience to actually improve themselves and get to a decent level. That's a decades long process to get good at using the tech they have, but once they organize an actually military they'll at least be relatively useful and increasingly so as they professionalize, so assuming military buildup is needed starting from the point of The Alloy of Law, their doctrine and tech should advance apace for 20 years until they have a decent interwar level of tech and organization.So in terms of mundane soldiers, we have large sophisticated armies that lack the technology to be effective in any way, and a society with the technology to at least be relevant but with 0 military organization or thinking, and is thus incapable of using what they do have. So I'd give the final conclusion: mundane soldiers of the cosmere are entirely ineffective compared to a modern semi-professional military. They would only be relevant at extremely backwards battlefields, such as civil war in the Congo or something along those lines.

Magical Soldiers:

Now unto the magical soldiers where things get FAR more interesting.

Awakening

Awakening in it's current form has not been explored in a military context, probably because it would take tens of thousands of breaths, and is thus hard to evaluate. I see awakened constructs such as more sophisticated Kalad's phantoms as a good start for being able to match modern vehicles, though they would still be relatively vulnerable to squad sized weaponry and direct fire. Nalthis is just relatively backwards, and we haven't seen large scale combat with awakening, so at the current state of development, while there might be interesting tricks, I don't see it as militarily relevant. 

Elantris and Era 2 Scadrial

I need to re-read Elantris to talk about it. And I haven't read TLM yet (busy with classes) so I won't speak about the metallic arts until reading that.

Radiants

Radiants are the only people who can be a credible threat on the modern battlefield. Their healing factor, and the strengths granted by stormlight, make them relatively difficult for artillery (which relies on shrapnel and concussive force rather than direct hits) to deal with, and the more mobile orders should be able to move faster than the normal infantryman could credibly hit, and their maneuverability and small size (compared to a tank) means squad sized weapons would struggle to ever get a lock on and hit. Shardplate would greatly exacerbate this.

More advanced aiming systems such as those on modern tanks have a better chance, though they could never hit something like a flying radiant or most probably an edgedancer either. Fundamentally most aiming systems use infrared to detect the heat released by vehicles (engines are extremely hot) and lock on to that, while radiants don't stand out as much, and if the frost from stormlight is actually cold this becomes even more difficult. The best way to get hits would be at long distance when the enemy can't see you (stormlight doesn't not grant telescopic vision) and you can fire a round that moves so fast that there's really no time to get out of the way unless you have transcendent instincts like Kaladin. 

Overall, I'd give tanks the advantage of they detect the radiant first (which drones will help greatly with), and the advantage to the radiant once both are aware of each other. 

The real difficult thing for radiants to deal with would be aircraft. Those engage at such long ranges, precision guiding can be so precise , laser guided bombs can hit what infrared can't find, and there's no good way for them to be dealt with. They fly so fast and high generally, and there's no credible anti air to force low speed near ground flying either. Those would be the real killer.

Once aluminum becomes standardized as an outer shell of armor for vehicles (not really worth it on infantrymen), things get even harder. They become harder to detect with magically, unless their absence is more glaring than their presence?, and it would take more clever and, critically, investiture intense methods to deal with them. 

Logistically the armors of Roshar seem to have good supply lines for forces via teleportation and soul casters, but the most critical element here is stormlight. We haven't really seen what a long term combat deployment looks like for a radiant. They seem to operate on a more mission based model where they only engage the enemy for a few hours and can then return to Urithiru. Modern warfare is insanely fuel and supply hungry, and it would force the same immense rates of expenditure from the radiants in terms of investiture. Could they keep up? 

Conclusion:

Overall, a few hundred radiants with abundant stormlight could be a threat to a smaller national military, like Albania or something. A few thousand with abundant stormlight could put up a fight with a decent military like that of Germany or maybe Poland. To tangle with the stronger military powers would take tens of thousands of well trained, well organized radiants, several thousands hopefully in shardplate, with near infinite stormlight. I think there's only a few tens of thousands of radiant spren in total, so I don't think that's even possible from what we know. It would also be a force incapable of really fighting a traditional war. They would be able to destroy enemy assets, but would struggle immensely holding their own ground, and would be woefully incapable of conducting offensive operations that intend to occupy enemy territory. 

As of the current state of ROW, the forces of the Coalition of Roshar are about capable of taking on a modern country as strong as ... Austria maybe? For reference that's a nation with 23k soldiers in total, though officially there's 120k reservists, which hasn't fought in a war in 70 years, has 15 fighter jets and about 100 transport helicopters, 56 tanks, and has military spending under 1% of GDP (that is very low for reference, NATO standard is 2%, and US is 3.5%). Total population of the country 8 million, which is probably less than 10% of the that of the area which is controlled by the Coalition. That should be about a fair fight. 

Edit: Final Note

If the cosmere really wanted to fight Earth, they'd be far far better off doing it via subterfuge and infiltration at the moment than a straight up fight. As Brandon seems to like the heist and espionage plot lines, there's really quite a few powers that would be very useful in these roles. Cosmere super spies and super assassins would be a major menace. Sure, somebody like Wax or Vasher probably would struggle to get anything done on a modern battlefield, but lock them in a room with 5 security officers that only have pistols on them? It would be a massacre. The situation kinda reminds me of the old Harry Potter question of Wizards vs Muggles, where yeah wizards could get killed by a single bullet. However the logical thing wouldn't be fight the armies, it would be to teleport into the President's bed room and mind control him, or prominent politicians, or generals, etc. In that sort of 'warfare' the cosmere could really do a number on earth even with the current tech gap.

Edited January 20 by A Simple Pilgrim

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine Arbiter]

21 hours ago, A Simple Pilgrim said:

Awakening in it's current form has not been explored in a military context, probably because it would take tens of thousands of breaths, and is thus hard to evaluate. I see awakened constructs such as more sophisticated Kalad's phantoms as a good start for being able to match modern vehicles, though they would still be relatively vulnerable to squad sized weaponry and direct fire. Nalthis is just relatively backwards, and we haven't seen large scale combat with awakening, so at the current state of development, while there might be interesting tricks, I don't see it as militarily relevant. 

I actually think awakening is one of the better magics in this conflict.  We see the command for 1 breath lifeless gives said lifeless a ton of freedom to function nearly as well as they did in life.  Every Earthling soldier that gets turned lifeless becomes a soldier who feels no pain and needs to be bled out over and over again.  Basically the zombies we all fear minus the whole 1 shot to the head thing... no you have to bleed them out to stop them and then they can be patched back up and filled with more ichor alcohol.  Every military death we take is 1 more minion for those we are fighting.  1 lost battle and you have the enemy with lifeless who have the muscle memory to operate whatever tech is left behind.  Its not radiants picking up guns... its soldiers who know how to use them picking them up but now they are harder to kill and stop permanently.  

[Tglassy Soulcaster]

10 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I actually think awakening is one of the better magics in this conflict.  We see the command for 1 breath lifeless gives said lifeless a ton of freedom to function nearly as well as they did in life.  Every Earthling soldier that gets turned lifeless becomes a soldier who feels no pain and needs to be bled out over and over again.  Basically the zombies we all fear minus the whole 1 shot to the head thing... no you have to bleed them out to stop them and then they can be patched back up and filled with more ichor alcohol.  Every military death we take is 1 more minion for those we are fighting.  1 lost battle and you have the enemy with lifeless who have the muscle memory to operate whatever tech is left behind.  Its not radiants picking up guns... its soldiers who know how to use them picking them up but now they are harder to kill and stop permanently.  

Sure, but at the most that would simply double the enemy's numbers.  They only have one breath per person.  Even if they brought a crap ton of Breaths from home, there's still a limited stock.  And making a lifeless uses up the Breath.  It can't come back at that point.  Not a lot of wealthy people with the 5th heightening will want to lose their immortality just so someone else can win a war on a distant world.  

[Nameless* Steel Inquisitor]

14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I actually think awakening is one of the better magics in this conflict.  We see the command for 1 breath lifeless gives said lifeless a ton of freedom to function nearly as well as they did in life.  Every Earthling soldier that gets turned lifeless becomes a soldier who feels no pain and needs to be bled out over and over again.  Basically the zombies we all fear minus the whole 1 shot to the head thing... no you have to bleed them out to stop them and then they can be patched back up and filled with more ichor alcohol.  Every military death we take is 1 more minion for those we are fighting.  1 lost battle and you have the enemy with lifeless who have the muscle memory to operate whatever tech is left behind.  Its not radiants picking up guns... its soldiers who know how to use them picking them up but now they are harder to kill and stop permanently.  

That assumes that there’d be significant casualties to begin with. Even if there were, the Nalthians would still only be able to equip them with stolen weapons and ammo. They’d have no way of producing their own equipment.

[A Simple Pilgrim Bridgeman]

15 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I actually think awakening is one of the better magics in this conflict.  We see the command for 1 breath lifeless gives said lifeless a ton of freedom to function nearly as well as they did in life.  Every Earthling soldier that gets turned lifeless becomes a soldier who feels no pain and needs to be bled out over and over again.  Basically the zombies we all fear minus the whole 1 shot to the head thing... no you have to bleed them out to stop them and then they can be patched back up and filled with more ichor alcohol.  Every military death we take is 1 more minion for those we are fighting.  1 lost battle and you have the enemy with lifeless who have the muscle memory to operate whatever tech is left behind.  Its not radiants picking up guns... its soldiers who know how to use them picking them up but now they are harder to kill and stop permanently.  

This would make more sense if the lifeless in question had guns, but as far as we know, that doesn't exist on Nalthis. Additionally most of a lifeless's skills come from what they had during life (though I think an expansion of lifeless capabilities will be a prime change in the next warbreaker book), so any Nalthian lifeless wouldn't be able to use guns and modern tactics effectively anyway. 

'Repairing' a lifeless who's bled out doesn't sound as simple as you make it seem. The body has to be retrieved from wherever it fell, the wounds have to be stitched up and and cleaned, hopefully none are permanently debilitating. Then they have to be refilled with Ichor Alcohol, and as damage accumulates they function worse and worse, due to diverging more from a human form. Attacks that destroy the body would destroy lifeless too. 

Overall, lifeless with guns who used to be soldiers would be quite effective actually, though keeping them supplied with ammunition would be the main issue. However, Nalthis doesn't have guns or modern tactics so that's why I wasn't impressed with lifeless. Theoretically you could send a strike team of Awakeners to take out a small military garrison, and then animate all the bodies, and repeat this until you have a lifeless force capable of combat, who can engage enemy forces so you can resurrect their soldiers as lifeless. This, however, seems extremely convoluted. 

One interesting application would be using lifeless to steal technical skills. If they can't get any earth gunsmiths to defect or work when kidnaped, they could assassinate them, steal their tools, and then resurrect them as lifeless who can endlessly work the production. That sounds like a possibility in the industrial era of Nalthis, where the most technically advanced workers get resurrected after death to keep working. 

[Frustration Herald]

16 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I actually think awakening is one of the better magics in this conflict.  We see the command for 1 breath lifeless gives said lifeless a ton of freedom to function nearly as well as they did in life.  Every Earthling soldier that gets turned lifeless becomes a soldier who feels no pain and needs to be bled out over and over again.  Basically the zombies we all fear minus the whole 1 shot to the head thing... no you have to bleed them out to stop them and then they can be patched back up and filled with more ichor alcohol.  Every military death we take is 1 more minion for those we are fighting.  1 lost battle and you have the enemy with lifeless who have the muscle memory to operate whatever tech is left behind.  Its not radiants picking up guns... its soldiers who know how to use them picking them up but now they are harder to kill and stop permanently.  

I think type IV awakened entities would probably be a better way to go.

[Sky Breaker Noble-Blooded]

Quote

Sel - bullet is faster than drawing. Eventually Elantrians will get hit by one and killed. They might cause some problems but overall we're talking drones 20km in the air vs glowing dudes and drawings.

Roshar - Biggest challenge, not because of land army, as guys with sticks are no match for tanks, but Radiants will cause trouble. Not that much. Shardplate is NOT bulletproof. It can be damaged, and every soldier carries an automatic rifle, so they can spray Shardplates until it breaks apart. Not to mention tanks, artillery, jet strikes or precise missiles strikes or bombs.

First according to Brandon Sanderson elantrians have one of the best healing factors but you might be able to nuke elantris and aralon to destroy it and that would probably mess up the elantrian’s powers

second radiants would cause more of a problem for example Windrunners could lash missiles and other aircraft and that would really mess up their steering so they would have advantage in dogfights, dustbringers could use division on stuff like military vehicles and weapons so they would also have advantage in land fights, and finally with stuff like elsecallers and lightweavers you could soulcast nukes from shadesmar so you couldn’t use nuke very easily (also just a side note I’m pretty sure that live shardplate would be bulletproof 

[Tglassy Soulcaster]

25 minutes ago, Sky Breaker said:

First according to Brandon Sanderson elantrians have one of the best healing factors but you might be able to nuke elantris and aralon to destroy it and that would probably mess up the elantrian’s powers

second radiants would cause more of a problem for example Windrunners could lash missiles and other aircraft and that would really mess up their steering so they would have advantage in dogfights, dustbringers could use division on stuff like military vehicles and weapons so they would also have advantage in land fights, and finally with stuff like elsecallers and lightweavers you could soulcast nukes from shadesmar so you couldn’t use nuke very easily (also just a side note I’m pretty sure that live shardplate would be bulletproof 

1.  Windrunners will not be lashing missiles.  You have to touch something to lash it.  Missiles explode once they're touched.  Goodness, why does everyone assume a Windrunner can just lash every moving thing that's moving at faster than sound speeds?  Lashing a jet?  Are you serious?  Windrunners can't break the sound barrier, and even if they could, the jet is much more maneuverable, and can lock on to the Windrunning and shoot the missiles the Windrunner will not be able to lash.  And if a Windrunner were getting close enough to a jet to touch it, which isn't going to happen, they aren't going to use a Lashing, they're going to use a Shardblade.

2.  We have no idea how Division works, so we can't say ANYTHING about how that would help in any kind of fight.  

3.  Soulcasting from the CR would require finding the thing in the CR.  On Roshar, the bead may not even be anywhere NEAR the actual object in the CR.  And I'm not convinced they'd even be able to do it.  

4.  It would likely depend on the bullet.  I'm pretty sure a .50 cal bullet would put a dent in any shardplate.  A single bullet can miss you by ten inches and still rip a hole in you just by the wake of the bullet.  

[Frustration Herald]

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

1.  Windrunners will not be lashing missiles.  You have to touch something to lash it.  Missiles explode once they're touched. 

That is not at all how that works, otherwise they would explode the instant they launched.

Here's the thing, air has mass too.

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

Goodness, why does everyone assume a Windrunner can just lash every moving thing that's moving at faster than sound speeds?  Lashing a jet?  Are you serious?  Windrunners can't break the sound barrier,

1. Yes they can, the speed cap of gravity is the speed of light.

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

and even if they could, the jet is much more maneuverable.  

No they aren't, Windrunners have perfect maneuverability, able to go in any direction on a whim. Jets are limited by the strain their pilot can handle, Windrunners can do things that would incapacitate or kill a pilot and keep going.

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

2.  We have no idea how Division works, so we can't say ANYTHING about how that would help in any kind of fight.

We know you can use it to burn away rock, to the point that it will remain smoldering long after the Dustbringer leaves.

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

  3.  Soulcasting from the CR would require finding the thing in the CR.  On Roshar, the bead may not even be anywhere NEAR the actual object in the CR.  And I'm not convinced they'd even be able to do it. 

You can just reach for the one that you want and Connection will guide it to you.

Spoiler

Kalanit Taub

When Jasnah picks up the bead for the palace, is that the same bead that Shallan picks up in Oathbringer?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Kalanit Taub

Is that a coincidence or is there something else...?

Brandon Sanderson

So, whenever things like that happen you can assume there's little bits of Connection going on that's changing the probability a little bit. You're not meant to read much into it, but the probability is increased because of thing like that.

And you'll find, if you look really closely, there are connections between the characters that are really subtle that I'm doing, that anyone who's touching the Spiritual Realm or thing like that. For instance, in the second book, Syl turns into Shallan while Shallan is washed up on the beach while Syl is talking to Kaladin somewhere else. There's enough Connection going on that you see Syl change shapes, and Kal's like, "It looks like she's walking on a beach!"

It's just Syl... because through all of that, is turning into... You'll find things like that <happening> all through the books, really subtle, really small. There's just meant to be, one of the things in the Cosmere is Connection. Your Connection to people, Connection to things, places, influences probability a little bit.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/395/#e13037

 

 

 

 

So they very much could.

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

4.  It would likely depend on the bullet.  I'm pretty sure a .50 cal bullet would put a dent in any shardplate.  A single bullet can miss you by ten inches and still rip a hole in you just by the wake of the bullet.  

That's not true. The shockwave of bullets are simply too small to cause damage.

[alder24 Kalad's Phantom]

11 hours ago, Sky Breaker said:

First according to Brandon Sanderson elantrians have one of the best healing factors but you might be able to nuke elantris and aralon to destroy it and that would probably mess up the elantrian’s powers

I haven't read Elantris in a while. Elantrians still can be killed and they can still die from natural causes. They rely on the power of Dor, they need constant connection to Dor and the city of Elantris, the further away from the city the weaker they get. Ire needs constant supply of liquid Dor. They maybe could connect to the local area with the help of some of this liquid Dor (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3407), but if connection is cut, or liquid Dor ends, they will lose their powers. Without the ability to use their powers on Earth, so far away from Elantris, they won't stand a chance against Earth.

11 hours ago, Sky Breaker said:

second radiants would cause more of a problem for example Windrunners could lash missiles and other aircraft and that would really mess up their steering so they would have advantage in dogfights, dustbringers could use division on stuff like military vehicles and weapons so they would also have advantage in land fights, and finally with stuff like elsecallers and lightweavers you could soulcast nukes from shadesmar so you couldn’t use nuke very easily (also just a side note I’m pretty sure that live shardplate would be bulletproof 

Windrunners can't travel as fast as jets and missiles in the air. I've already explained it several times in this topic. Windrunner goes 200/300 mph, jet 1600, missile mach 5. No lashing can be done on them. Passenger planes move several times faster than Windrunners. They won't catch them. And all missiles have guiding systems to self correct course. Jets and missiles can lock on targets beyond the horizon with radars, and with infrared to the horizon, so they can lock on any Windrunner from dozens or hundreds of kilometers away.
Dustbringer needs to run to the vehicle first, and they will not stay dormant or be alone - getting a tank shell in the face will not be a pleasant experience for a Dustbringer. 6 orders of Radiants won't be able to catch a tank driving away from them. 
For a soulcasting from CR, they need to first find it there, there is more trash in the Earth's oceans than beads on Roshar. 

Shardplates aren't bulletproof, they can be broken even by one to three bullets from Wax. Now give him modern automatic high caliber weapons, and Shardplates don't provide that much protection anymore. Radiants would rely on healing more than on Shardplate. They would die.

Spoiler

Questioner

How many shots would it take for Wax using his gun to break a section of Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on the gun... Okay, so Vindication. He could probably... depends on the bullet, cause he's got several styles. But let's just say two or three. There's an argument he could do it with one, with the right shot, the right bullet, in the right moment.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

 

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

That is not at all how that works, otherwise they would explode the instant they launched.

They can be detonated by proximoty, radio, laser, optics, sonar, wire - there are magnitude of methods. Their target closing on them would make them explode.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

We know you can use it to burn away rock, to the point that it will remain smoldering long after the Dustbringer leaves.

They have to touch it first.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

You can just reach for the one that you want and Connection will guide it to you.

  Reveal hidden contents

Kalanit Taub

When Jasnah picks up the bead for the palace, is that the same bead that Shallan picks up in Oathbringer?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Kalanit Taub

Is that a coincidence or is there something else...?

Brandon Sanderson

So, whenever things like that happen you can assume there's little bits of Connection going on that's changing the probability a little bit. You're not meant to read much into it, but the probability is increased because of thing like that.

And you'll find, if you look really closely, there are connections between the characters that are really subtle that I'm doing, that anyone who's touching the Spiritual Realm or thing like that. For instance, in the second book, Syl turns into Shallan while Shallan is washed up on the beach while Syl is talking to Kaladin somewhere else. There's enough Connection going on that you see Syl change shapes, and Kal's like, "It looks like she's walking on a beach!"

It's just Syl... because through all of that, is turning into... You'll find things like that <happening> all through the books, really subtle, really small. There's just meant to be, one of the things in the Cosmere is Connection. Your Connection to people, Connection to things, places, influences probability a little bit.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/395/#e13037

 

 

 

 

So they very much could.

That's not that kind of Connection WoB is talking about. It's about Connection between characters not between beads that nobody ever touched. And Brandon says "You're not meant to read much into it". So stop reading much into it.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

That's not true. The shockwave of bullets are simply too small to cause damage.

WoB above. Shardplates aren't bulletproof.

[Frustration Herald]

23 hours ago, alder24 said:

I haven't read Elantris in a while. Elantrians still can be killed and they can still die from natural causes. They rely on the power of Dor, they need constant connection to Dor and the city of Elantris, the further away from the city the weaker they get. Ire needs constant supply of liquid Dor. They maybe could connect to the local area with the help of some of this liquid Dor (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3407), but if connection is cut, or liquid Dor ends, they will lose their powers. Without the ability to use their powers on Earth, so far away from Elantris, they won't stand a chance against Earth.

Aon Tia would allow them to access the Cognitive realm.

From there they can attack with impunity.

23 hours ago, alder24 said:

Windrunners can't travel as fast as jets and missiles in the air. I've already explained it several times in this topic. Windrunner goes 200/300 mph, jet 1600, missile mach 5. No lashing can be done on them. Passenger planes move several times faster than Windrunners. They won't catch them. And all missiles have guiding systems to self correct course. Jets and missiles can lock on targets beyond the horizon with radars, and with infrared to the horizon, so they can lock on any Windrunner from dozens or hundreds of kilometers away.

Kal got to around 370 mph when flying ahead of the Highstorm.

Spoiler

Karen Ahlstrom (paraphrased)

1. Just as highstorms come less frequently around the Weeping, they are more frequent around Midpeace.

2. Following the advent of the Everstorm, the normal highstorm calculations/schedule was found to be thrown off by about four (Rosharan) months.

3. Highstorms move at about 370 miles per hour. The Everstorm moves at about 120 miles per hour. Those are variable of course, and shouldn't be taken as official, definitive numbers.

4. For approximate Everstorm timing calculations we used a cycle of 9.1 (Rosharan) days.

5. Roshar's circumference is about 22110 miles. Again, this shouldn't be taken as an official, definitive number.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e10231

 

And that was before he got shardplate which weighs about 1,400 pounds without increasing is surface area that much.

Additionally Windrunners can affect air pressure, and basically create vacuum tubes for them to fly down.

So mach 5 is totally possible.

23 hours ago, alder24 said:

They can be detonated by proximoty, radio, laser, optics, sonar, wire - there are magnitude of methods. Their target closing on them would make them explode.

That is true, but that wasn't what I was addressing.

23 hours ago, alder24 said:

They have to touch it first.

To start with, it expands out from point of contact.

23 hours ago, alder24 said:

That's not that kind of Connection WoB is talking about. It's about Connection between characters not between beads that nobody ever touched.

That's not how I read it.

And besides, Jasnah never mentions having to find the right bead, she just looks at something and wonders how hard it would be to soulcast.

When Shallan tries soulcasting she appeared in the CR with the object already.

And even if Soulcasting from the Cognitive requires you to find the bead you can just run your hand through them as you can easily identify them by touch.

23 hours ago, alder24 said:

And Brandon says "You're not meant to read much into it". So stop reading much into it.

I will read too much into Brandon sneezing.

23 hours ago, alder24 said:

WoB above. Shardplates aren't bulletproof.

That's not what I was referring to.

23 hours ago, alder24 said:

Shardplates aren't bulletproof, they can be broken even by one to three bullets from Wax. Now give him modern automatic high caliber weapons, and Shardplates don't provide that much protection anymore. Radiants would rely on healing more than on Shardplate. They would die.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

How many shots would it take for Wax using his gun to break a section of Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on the gun... Okay, so Vindication. He could probably... depends on the bullet, cause he's got several styles. But let's just say two or three. There's an argument he could do it with one, with the right shot, the right bullet, in the right moment.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

 

That's Wax tapping weight and pushing though.

So that is the equivalent of much higher caliber weapons.

[alder24 Kalad's Phantom]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Aon Tia would allow them to access the Cognitive realm.

From there they can attack with impunity.

Not if they are using connection to Dor and Elantris. Ire is an excellent example.They couldn’t do anything while Kel was tricking them and had to use jars of Dor. Elantrians rely heavily on local connection to the land, and the further they are, the weaker they get. TLM spoilers:

Spoiler

Yes, Shai has formed a connection to the Elendel Basin, so there is a way around it - but she did it using a jar of purify Dor. Do we know what would happen to the Aon Elendel if the Dor ran out? Does this Aon draw from the Dor in the Sel/SR or from Harmony, or from purified Dor that was provided to it by Shai? I don't think we know how this works to fully judge its weak and strong points. Destroying the Aon would break the connection. 

 

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's not how I read it.

And besides, Jasnah never mentions having to find the right bead, she just looks at something and wonders how hard it would be to soulcast.

When Shallan tries soulcasting she appeared in the CR with the object already.

And even if Soulcasting from the Cognitive requires you to find the bead you can just run your hand through them as you can easily identify them by touch.

That's how I read it as it clearly states it's a connection between characters. Jasnah picked up the palace bead because she had a strong connection to it - she lived there. Shallan picked up the same bead, because she has a strong connection to Jasnah. No Surgebinder has any strong connection to jets, vehicles or missiles on Earth, so they won't find it just like that.

Jasnah's chapter in WoR, after assassination, when she fully transferred herself to CR, she had to find beads of ropes first. Soulcasting from CR requires finding beads. Shallan doesn't do it this way, she forms a connection with that object by touching it physically. Jasnah usually as well. They are doing it differently but when they are fully in CR, they have to find beads to soulcast. 

Again, there is more trash on the rivers on Earth, than beads in Roshar's CR. Each piece of trash has its own "bead" in Earth's CR. Good luck finding the rocket traveling Mach 5 straight at you that you've never seen before.

And a more interesting philosophical question. Because we create new smaller objects, and can see much smaller objects as well, we think about them more often. Does this mean that we are creating cognitive manifestations of microplastics, dust particles or other smaller objects not visible to the naked eye? This would literally flood the Earth's CR to unprecedented levels.

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's Wax tapping weight and pushing though.

So that is the equivalent of much higher caliber weapons.

Much higher? Probably a typical modern automatic rifle would do the job, as it might be much more powerful than Wax's guns from more than a century ago. Every soldier in the world carries that type of gun.

[Frustration Herald]

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Again, there is more trash on the rivers on Earth, than beads in Roshar's CR. Each piece of trash has its own "bead" in Earth's CR. Good luck finding the rocket traveling Mach 5 straight at you that you've never seen before.

1. It wouldn't be going for you.

2. Most people don't think about what they can't see, so they would have very very small representations in the CR. I doubt that something like a cm of broken plastic would have any notable presence.

[therunner Originator]

On 22/02/2023 at 1:22 PM, alder24 said:

Windrunners can't travel as fast as jets and missiles in the air. I've already explained it several times in this topic. Windrunner goes 200/300 mph, jet 1600, missile mach 5. No lashing can be done on them. Passenger planes move several times faster than Windrunners. They won't catch them. And all missiles have guiding systems to self correct course. Jets and missiles can lock on targets beyond the horizon with radars, and with infrared to the horizon, so they can lock on any Windrunner from dozens or hundreds of kilometers away.

Windrunners are stated to be able to go to other planets in Roshar system, so they must be able to travel at escape velocity, i.e. around ~10 km per second. Mach 5 would be trivial by comparison. Though these speeds probably require either Shardplate, or pressure manipulation, or both.

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Much higher? Probably a typical modern automatic rifle would do the job, as it might be much more powerful than Wax's guns from more than a century ago. Every soldier in the world carries that type of gun.

Well, another WoB states Shardplate would resist bullets fairly well, and SOTD2 spoilers

Spoiler

Shardplate continue to be used along with combat equipment even in Era 4, where weapons far more powerful then modern day guns are available, suggesting that Shardplate still provides good protection.

Also, modern assault rifles (i.e. M16A1) while firing at ~900 m/s, also shoot far lighter bullets (3.5-4 grams). Comparatively Vindication is probably something like .500 Smith&Wesson, thought probably shooting only at ~200-300 m/s (as revolvers did in early 20th century), but the bullets are ~15-20 grams in weight.
So actually the momentum of bullets is about the same in both cases  (and actually possibly higher for the revolver), while the kinetic energy of the bullet is only 2.5-4x greater in the assault rifle (depending on the exact numbers).

And since armor getting hit by a bullet is inelastic collision, the more relevant parameter is the momentum, not kinetic energy (as some will be consumed by the deformation of the bullet).

TLDR: Modern assault rifles are not that much more powerful than Vindication, with at most 4x the kinetic energy per bullet. And since the collision is inelastic, a lot of that energy will be consumed by the deformation of the bullet. Momenta of the bullets are actually comparable in the two cases.