Are Axi really atoms?

[Lesser spren Son of Honor]

With how Axioms are described we often assume that Axioms are another word for Atom, just like how Cosmere is another universe. Indeed this appears to be basically true, the names of the surges basically prove they are, at least, an equivalent. But do we know the cosmere, unlike our universe, is comprised of more than matter and energy. The atoms of our universe is comprised of electrons, protons, and neutron and held together by the four fundamental forces. What if in the cosmere the fundamental forces were a bit weaker than those in our own, one of the tenets of multiverse theory is unlikely it was for the fundamental to arrange themselves in a way that could support matter even exitsting. If that was the case then something a bit more would be needed, perhaps they would need the four fundamental for forces AND investiture to exist. If this were the case it would explain a few things, for example "why does it take more energy to leave the cognitive realm then to enter it?" entering the cognitive realm is simply realsing the investiture in matter so it enters a state or realm of existence that requires less energy to exist, or "If no one can see axioms how can enough people cognize them for microkinesis to exist?" Axioms have investiture in their very NATURE, so of course they can be manipulated.

Edited January 16 by Lesser spren

[Quantus Most Ancient]

Yup:

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Questioner

Have you ever considered the energy density of Stormlight compared to real world substances? Example: nuclear fuels. Is it kind of on that level?

Brandon Sanderson

I have a little group of cosmerenauts, fans of the books that I’ve known for the long time who are themselves physicists. And I have asked them to start helping me quantify these things. Right now, I don’t have them exactly quantified. The place we’re starting with is: which forms of Investiture in the cosmere, how much fantastical-unit-of-energy do they have, and how does that relate to a real-world joule, or something like that. And that’s something we’re in the process of doing, because we’ll need it by space age cosmere. But I’ve told them they have years to figure it out.

The nice thing is, in our world, we have conservation of energy. I’ve talked about this in the cosmere: because we can go from energy to matter to Investiture (and any of the three can transfer between), we can pop energy out in interesting ways to fuel things if we need to. We can draw directly from the Spiritual Realm, or you can have some of this matter transferred into energy through becoming Investiture first, in a way that’s a little less explosive than normally getting energy out of matter is, in our world.

That said, the magic system of Dragonsteel (which I wrote long ago, which is not released), one of the primary magic systems of that was actual nuclear physics. And nuclear fission was part of the magic system, being able to see the atoms and manipulate them. I don’t know if I’ll ever do that in actual cosmere, but it was one of the cosmere magics originally. So when you read Dragonsteel (we’ll probably release it sometime around the Words of Radiance leatherbound Kickstarter, would be my guess), you can read about people seeing… in cosmere terms, they’re called “axi.” Or “an axon,” rather than atoms. You can see people playing with that. And I even think there are rumors in the books of people playing with those to the point that they make enormous explosions that cause wastelands. Because you do something a little wrong, and suddenly you’re splitting some atoms, and that can be very bad. That can have ramifications.

Waterstones RoW Release Event (Nov. 18, 2020)

 

Microkinesis granted the ability to see axons as well as the Spiritweb itself.  Basically, in the cosmere, the Quantum scale that blurs the lines of traditional physics will start just crossing over to the Spiritual Realm.  

 

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the.fulgid

It seems to be more apparent that different abilities are granted depending on the design of one's Spiritweb. Is the design of a Spiritweb, and the abilities it grants, limited to a specific Shardworld or are the designs universal across the cosmere? For example could someone from Roshar go to Scadrial and have Hemalurgy done on them and have it work?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yeah, some of the magics are more regionally-locked than others. Hemalurgy will work on any planet. But, for instance, you'll notice that Elantrians have trouble even going to the next nation over. There's a specific reason for that. Most of the magics transcend location.

the.fulgid

My question, in regards to Dragonsteel, is: Is there a possibility that somebody with the ability of microkinesis can see the spiritweb and alter it according to their will?

Brandon Sanderson

This is, this is totally possible. But you have to remember this is pre-Shattering of Adonalsium. Dragonsteel is the story of the Shattering of Adonalsium... the whole book is before, the whole series... So there are lots of things going on there that are-- like you will-- yeah. But it’s not canon yet.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

  Edited January 16 by Quantus

[Treamayne Seer]

Whereas Axiom is:

Spoiler

Noun - axiom (plural axioms or axiomata) (the latter is becoming less common and is sometimes considered archaic)

(philosophy) A seemingly self-evident or necessary truth which is based on assumption; a principle or proposition which cannot actually be proved or disproved.

(logic, mathematics, proof theory) A fundamental assumption that serves as a basis for deduction of theorems; a postulate (sometimes distinguished from postulates as being universally applicable, whereas postulates are particular to a certain science or context).

 

[Lesser spren Son of Honor]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Whereas Axiom is:

  Hide contents

Noun - axiom (plural axioms or axiomata) (the latter is becoming less common and is sometimes considered archaic)

(philosophy) A seemingly self-evident or necessary truth which is based on assumption; a principle or proposition which cannot actually be proved or disproved.

(logic, mathematics, proof theory) A fundamental assumption that serves as a basis for deduction of theorems; a postulate (sometimes distinguished from postulates as being universally applicable, whereas postulates are particular to a certain science or context).

 

My apologies I thought that Axial was derived from axiom and was meant to invoke it like Connection, or Invested. As if Axi were meant tothe fudanmentally basis of reality.

 

 

[Treamayne Seer]

1 minute ago, Lesser spren said:

My apologies I thought that Axial was derived from axiom and was meant to invoke it like Connection, or Invested. As if Axi were meant tothe fudanmentally basis of reality.

No worries, just thought you might want to fix the thread title. Sanderson's Cosmere terminology is Axon (singular), Axi (plural), and Axial (of or pertaining to Axi)

[StanLemon Full Feruchemist]

To further support this, when Wax is holding the Bands, he's able to see Axi and he can see Edwarn's soul

Edited January 17 by StanLemon

[Lesser spren Son of Honor]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

To further support this, when Wax I'd holding the Bands, he's able to see Axi and he can see Edwarn's soul

That would also explain how inquisitors can see non metal objects

[Treamayne Seer]

7 hours ago, Lesser spren said:

That would also explain how inquisitors can see non metal objects

Yes. Or at least in part - since the descriptions we have of Inquisitor Steelsight is that they see Steel and Iron lines pointing to all the trace metals in people and objects.

HoA Prologue:

Spoiler

He stepped forward. Though he could no longer see as normal men did—after all, he had large steel spikes driven point-first through his eyes—he could sense the room around him. The spikes protruded from the back of his skull; if he reached up to touch the back of his head, he could feel the sharp points. There was no blood.

The spikes gave him power. Everything was outlined in fine blue Allomantic lines, highlighting the world. The room was of modest size, and several companions—also outlined in blue, the Allomantic lines pointing at the metals contained in their very blood—stood with Marsh. Each one had spikes through his eyes.

Each one, that is, except for the man tied to the table in front of him.

 

[SPECTRE120 Bridgeman]

Does anyone know what the Investiture-energy ratio or Investiture-matter ratio is? Obviously, mass-energy is E=mc^2 but is there a law for investiture?

[cometaryorbit Stone Shaman]

2 hours ago, SPECTRE120 said:

Does anyone know what the Investiture-energy ratio or Investiture-matter ratio is? Obviously, mass-energy is E=mc^2 but is there a law for investiture?

I believe there is, but it's not yet known and possibly not decided even by Brandon's team yet.

Investiture to energy is tricky because it's not always a direct conversion - you can use Investiture to pull energy from the Spiritual Realm without actually converting the Investiture you have (like a perfect gem glowing without leaking Stormlight, or a kandra Blessing of Potency giving extra strength to muscles without using up what's in the spikes)

Direct Investiture-matter conversion is more straightforward, but we still can't get a ratio because we don't actually have numerical units for Investiture. But there are some things that can give a feel for what's involved:

- A normal (non-Bondsmith) Radiant Spren usually turns into a Shardblade about six feet long.

- A suit of Shardplate is made of hundreds of non-sapient spren.

- A single bead of lerasium, small enough to swallow easily, grants Allomantic strength significantly greater than a normal Mistborn's when that Investiture is "melded" with a person's soul.

[IlstrawberrySeed Ardent]

On 2/3/2023 at 11:43 AM, cometaryorbit said:

A normal (non-Bondsmith) Radiant Spren usually turns into a Shardblade about six feet long.

It can become smaller, and we don't know how large it can get to.

[Chandlerhimself Bridgeman]

I don't think they are really atoms, but they are close. The different elements are determined by the number of protons, but the God metals seem to have some properties of normal elements while also behaving differently. The God metals couldn't fit on the periodic table, so I think there is some extra investure particle involved. For example I think ettmetal is either sodium made out of investure subatomic particles or is normal sodium with investure inside the atom. I think the axi are basically atoms, but there might be some extra stuff in there that allows them to behave differently. 

[Treamayne Seer]

7 hours ago, Chandlerhimself said:

 For example I think ettmetal is either sodium made out of investure subatomic particles or is normal sodium with investure inside the atom. I think the axi are basically atoms, but there might be some extra stuff in there that allows them to behave differently. 

Did you mean sodium (salt) here? Because that's not the descriptions we have to work with (WoBs):

Spoiler

 

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Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said ettmetal is chemically reactive, not nuclear.

The longer answer makes it sound like Harmonium isn't a Lerasium/Atium alloy, but a whole new metal. He described it as "super-cesium," and that its volatility was based on electrons, not on protons or neutrons.

"It is not unstable, it is reactive. So it's like a "super-cesium". It reacts so violently..."

 

 

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Mason Wheeler

Harmonium is ettmetal... Its chemicals properties are sort of analogous to cesium. It explodes in contact with water. People are made out of water. You try to spike someone, you try to swallow it, you try to wear it as jewelry, it will not end well. Why in the world would he pick something so inharmonious?

Brandon Sanderson

He didn't pick it. It's unstable because of the two halves of him not meshing well.

 

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Brandon Sanderson

So, don't consider [harmonium] magically-enhanced cesium. Consider it a magically-created alkali metal. It's going to share attributes with the alkali metals, and generally follows the trends of the others, save for its melting point.

 

 

[AquaRegia Spinner]

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Did you mean sodium (salt) here? Because that's not the descriptions we have to work with (WoBs):

That is, in fact, exactly what the WoBs say.  Sodium is NOT "salt", it's an alkali metal.  It reacts rapidly with air and quite violently with water.

Salts are compounds; table salt is sodium chloride.

[Treamayne Seer]

39 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

That is, in fact, exactly what the WoBs say.  Sodium is NOT "salt", it's an alkali metal.  It reacts rapidly with air and quite violently with water.

Salts are compounds; table salt is sodium chloride.

Understood - but the WoBs say Cesium (which is why I quoted them). Reactive Sodium (NA) does not appear in nature; except as the stable isotope 23NA and a component of compounds.

Either way, I wasn't trying to be argumentitive, I was confused and simply trying to clarify since the WoBs say Cesium and you said Sodium. I thought you might have a different source or some new information.

[Chandlerhimself Bridgeman]

14 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Did you mean sodium (salt) here? Because that's not the descriptions we have to work with (WoBs):

  Hide contents

 

 

 

 

The discription fits with sodium. What you are thinking of is table salt which is sodium chloride I beleive. Sodium is an alkali metal the explodes when it touches water. 

[Treamayne Seer]

20 minutes ago, Chandlerhimself said:

The description fits with sodium. What you are thinking of is table salt which is sodium chloride I beleive. Sodium is an alkali metal the explodes when it touches water. 

That's a homologous behaviour of all alkali metals.

Please note the Words of Brandon I posted above.

Also, just to be more specific, when I mentioned "Salt" above - I was referencing (Wikipedia)*:

Spoiler

Because of their high reactivity, they must be stored under oil to prevent reaction with air, and are found naturally only in salts and never as the free elements. Caesium, the fifth alkali metal, is the most reactive of all the metals

You mentioned Sodium (NA), I thought you meant Cesium - because Brandon specifically used Cesium as his example (as noted above). Then, as noted in my next post - I was trying to verify if you had newer or different information since the WoBs we did have mentioned Cesium, not Sodium.

So, please let us know why you referenced Sodium. I'm guessing it was either new information, or you didn't know about the WoBs that mentioned Cesium.

*Note: I did screw up in that I knew Sodium occurs naturally in Salts, but didn't realize that was true of all Alkali Metals, including Cesium. I'm sorry.

Edited March 3 by Treamayne
Clarity

[AquaRegia Spinner]

My feeling - based simply on the texts and the WoBs people have posted, not all WoBs ever - is that axi are the cosmere analog of atoms.  I think that just as "mass-energy" in our universe takes the form of atoms, "mass-energy-investiture" in the cosmere takes the form of axi.  Axi often look and act like atoms do... except when they don't. 

For example, under a wide variety of conditions, axi form what would seem to us to be familiar elements and compounds; my guess is that a cosmere periodic table will exist and look pretty similar to ours.  But because investiture is a thing, there are a few very important differences.  Godmetals exist, and they don't (CAN'T, in fact) fit anywhere in OUR periodic table.  Under the right circumstances, some metal axi can be swallowed and then disappear when used to "unlock" investiture-based powers, or can have investiture stored in them.  These behaviors follow rules that we (and the in-cosmere characters) understand only incompletely right now, but we know Brandon has ideas about - and people working on - what the final form of the rules will turn out to be.

Bottom line: the cosmere has axi INSTEAD of atoms.  They are similar in many ways, but definitely not the same.

[Chandlerhimself Bridgeman]

On 3/3/2023 at 11:13 AM, Treamayne said:

That's a homologous behaviour of all alkali metals.

Please note the Words of Brandon I posted above.

Also, just to be more specific, when I mentioned "Salt" above - I was referencing (Wikipedia)*:

  Reveal hidden contents

Because of their high reactivity, they must be stored under oil to prevent reaction with air, and are found naturally only in salts and never as the free elements. Caesium, the fifth alkali metal, is the most reactive of all the metals

You mentioned Sodium (NA), I thought you meant Cesium - because Brandon specifically used Cesium as his example (as noted above). Then, as noted in my next post - I was trying to verify if you had newer or different information since the WoBs we did have mentioned Cesium, not Sodium.

So, please let us know why you referenced Sodium. I'm guessing it was either new information, or you didn't know about the WoBs that mentioned Cesium.

*Note: I did screw up in that I knew Sodium occurs naturally in Salts, but didn't realize that was true of all Alkali Metals, including Cesium. I'm sorry.

The behavior described by ettmetal is the same for all alkali metals. The reason I mentioned sodium is because it the the one most people would be familiar with. I didn't know about the WOB, but there doesn't seem to be a big enough difference between them when comparing them to ettmetal. I guess I could have said Potassium too. 

[alder24 Originator]

On 3.03.2023 at 6:22 AM, AquaRegia said:

My feeling - based simply on the texts and the WoBs people have posted, not all WoBs ever - is that axi are the cosmere analog of atoms.  I think that just as "mass-energy" in our universe takes the form of atoms, "mass-energy-investiture" in the cosmere takes the form of axi.  Axi often look and act like atoms do... except when they don't. 

This. This is the best explanation.