Bondsmith question

[Wittles of Shinovar King's Wit]

So I was just thinking, If powerful spren-like beings, such as the stormfather or the sibling are able to form a bondsmith, would it be theoretically possible for someone to bond with one of the unmade and basically be a void-light powered bondsmith?

[Frustration Sliver]

It has been theorized.

I am of the opinion that it would not.

[Wittles of Shinovar King's Wit]

good to know, I simply wanted to see if it was false outright before I got too into that theory

[Quantus Most Ancient]

The two big things people point to saying it's possible are the word choice in the Gem Archive that called it "Seditious" rather than "Impossible" to have more than Three Bondsmiths, and how the Sibling in RoW said he was being UnMade.  But the origins of the UnMade overall are very mysterious, and could vary from one to the next.  

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

It has been theorized.

I am of the opinion that it would not.

Why?  I only ask because I tried to make a for and against list and off the top of my head I couldnt come up with anything against the idea (other than maybe the simple fact that Rayse Never did it as far as we know).  

 

Personally, I think it's possible for the intelligent UnMade but not the bestial ones, though I could accept that they'd have to be specially (un)made for that purpose and the theorized Everstorm Spren was the first to try.  

[Frustration Sliver]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

Why?  I only ask because I tried to make a for and against list and off the top of my head I couldnt come up with anything against the idea (other than maybe the simple fact that Rayse Never did it as far as we know). 

The unmade don't have a Bondsmith equivelent

Spoiler

XS-Terrain

Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Eh... Kind of.

XS-Terrain

Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out?

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

 

[Quantus Most Ancient]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The unmade don't have a Bondsmith equivelent

  Hide contents

XS-Terrain

Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Eh... Kind of.

XS-Terrain

Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out?

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

 

That says that each Order with a spren race attached has a corresponding UnMade and that the Godspren/Bondsmiths dont fit the pattern.  I dont think that would prevent the unmade from becoming a Bondsmith Godspren, they'd just have a particular Order leaning the same way the Stormfather has a closer relationship to the Honorspren. 

 

 

[Beodrakis Noble-Blooded]

I'm pretty sure that the Bondsmith means bonding any kind powerful spren. I personally believe that bonding any of the unmade would turn you into a "Bondsmith" of sorts, similar to the process with Yelig-Nar. The reason for there not being a 10th brand of fused is that binding an Unmade will turn you into an Odium "Bondsmith".

[BrightLord Swageas Ardent]

10 hours ago, Beodrakis said:

I'm pretty sure that the Bondsmith means bonding any kind powerful spren. I personally believe that bonding any of the unmade would turn you into a "Bondsmith" of sorts, similar to the process with Yelig-Nar. The reason for there not being a 10th brand of fused is that binding an Unmade will turn you into an Odium "Bondsmith".

False, the unmade have no access to adhesion(Honor's surge) therefore they can't make bondsmiths. At least not the way things are as we know.

[offer Oldblood]

16 minutes ago, BrightLord Swageas said:

False, the unmade have no access to adhesion(Honor's surge) therefore they can't make bondsmiths. At least not the way things are as we know.

Do you have a source for that?

Ba-Ado-Mishram connecting with all the singers sounds similar to bondsmithing.

[Beodrakis Noble-Blooded]

13 minutes ago, BrightLord Swageas said:

False, the unmade have no access to adhesion(Honor's surge) therefore they can't make bondsmiths. At least not the way things are as we know.

I don't believe that a "bondsmith" with an unmade will grant adhesion, I just believe that they obtain a more powerful form of the brand that corresponds to said unmade.

[Beodrakis Noble-Blooded]

25 minutes ago, BrightLord Swageas said:

False, the unmade have no access to adhesion(Honor's surge) therefore they can't make bondsmiths. At least not the way things are as we know.

I don't believe that a "bondsmith" with an unmade will grant adhesion, I just believe that they obtain a more powerful form of the brand that corresponds to said unmade.

8 minutes ago, offer said:

Do you have a source for that?

Ba-Ado-Mishram connecting with all the singers sounds similar to bondsmithing.

Spoiler

XS-Terrain

Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Eh... Kind of.

XS-Terrain

Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out?

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

Frustration quotes this 4 posts ago

Edited January 12 by Beodrakis

[BrightLord Swageas Ardent]

9 minutes ago, offer said:

Do you have a source for that?

Ba-Ado-Mishram connecting with all the singers sounds similar to bondsmithing.

The connecting with Ba-Ado-Mishram is an extremely new development and no one knows how this took place whether in-universe or in general nor do we know what the rest of her abilities. Hence why I said based on what we know now, it's not possible but nothing I've seen points to that.

As for why i believe Honor's surge is Adhesion is simply process of elimination. There are 9 fused orders with one surge to them each. The Windrunner equivalent (Shanay-im) - Gravitation, the Lightweaver equivalent (Mavset-im) - Transformation, etc.

Ergo, there is no bondsmith voidlight equivalent order so no adhesion surge

[BrightLord Swageas Ardent]

19 minutes ago, Beodrakis said:

I don't believe that a "bondsmith" with an unmade will grant adhesion, I just believe that they obtain a more powerful form of the brand that corresponds to said unmade.

Could you explain this better, I'm still a little confused.

[offer Oldblood]

23 minutes ago, BrightLord Swageas said:

The connecting with Ba-Ado-Mishram is an extremely new development and no one knows how this took place whether in-universe or in general nor do we know what the rest of her abilities. Hence why I said based on what we know now, it's not possible but nothing I've seen points to that.

As for why i believe Honor's surge is Adhesion is simply process of elimination. There are 9 fused orders with one surge to them each. The Windrunner equivalent (Shanay-im) - Gravitation, the Lightweaver equivalent (Mavset-im) - Transformation, etc.

Ergo, there is no bondsmith voidlight equivalent order so no adhesion surge

Those are the fused. I agree that they don`t have adhesion.

The unmade have different abiities. The WoB above seems intentionaly vague so I believe it is possible for a bond with an unmade to be some kind of a bondsmith (maybe not exactly they as those we know) but I agree that mostly we don`t know what will happen in this case.

[Beodrakis Noble-Blooded]

13 minutes ago, BrightLord Swageas said:

Could you explain this better, I'm still a little confused.

I just realized, the unmade do not correspond to brands of fused, or orders of knight radiant, they are similar to the Stormfather and the Sibling, but unmade (corrupted) by Odium's voidlight, or perhaps originally made like that. Bonding such an unmade would not grant adhesion as that is seen as Honor's surge, and the unmade serve Odium. they would probaby be able to grant power to the one that accepted them into their body but what that power entails is uncertain, seeing as the only unmade we know to have bonded a human is Yelig-Nar, who seems reliant on doing so. I believe that another unmade that bonds a human would grant a similar effect, but you can't know for certain. 

[BrightLord Swageas Ardent]

2 minutes ago, offer said:

Those are the fused. I agree that they don`t have adhesion.

The unmade have different abiities. The WoB above seems intentionaly vague so I believe it is possible for a bond with an unmade to be some kind of a bondsmith (maybe not exactly they as those we know) but I agree that mostly we don`t know what will happen in this case.

Oh I get it but maybe you shouldn't be using the term 'bondsmith' or at least perhaps rephrase it.

If an unmade made a connection to someone, it would have to be someone in Odium's camp. Fused, Regal, whatever because in my mind it would be parasitic and not symbiotic, the same way honor and odium treat their forces differently.

Hence why I was so against the term bondsmith because they're about bringing people together in a healthy manner. I know not all unmade are the same but aside from Sja-Anat, pretty much all the unmade have been a menace(or at least from what we've gathered).

[offer Oldblood]

2 minutes ago, BrightLord Swageas said:

Oh I get it but maybe you shouldn't be using the term 'bondsmith' or at least perhaps rephrase it.

If an unmade made a connection to someone, it would have to be someone in Odium's camp. Fused, Regal, whatever because in my mind it would be parasitic and not symbiotic, the same way honor and odium treat their forces differently.

Hence why I was so against the term bondsmith because they're about bringing people together in a healthy manner. I know not all unmade are the same but aside from Sja-Anat, pretty much all the unmade have been a menace(or at least from what we've gathered).

With Yelig-nar it seemed to be a symbiotic relationship - the human swalowing the gem was a willing participant (in both cases they died shortly after but they agreed to it).

 

But I do use the term bondsmith pretty loosely here - I do think they might be able to create some form of light but that might be all the similarities.

[BrightLord Swageas Ardent]

2 minutes ago, offer said:

With Yelig-nar it seemed to be a symbiotic relationship - the human swalowing the gem was a willing participant (in both cases they died shortly after but they agreed to it).

Let me phrase it like this.

Amaram was dealing with the destruction of his reputation and when he tried to make up for his actions or at least try, he was shunted by Dalinar at every turn. So when an actual god pops up and tells him a one-sided truth, this just worsens him condition. Not defending the POS, but ye.

That anger, combined with how much of a hypocrite Dalinar was clearly put him in a vulnerable state of mind, and Odium, doing Odium took advantage of that and had him swallow something that would take give him 'what he wanted'.

I don't know about you but that circumstance of telling someone to swallow something when they're in turmoil is not healthy, whatsoever(unless it's meds).

The only way we can know if it was symbiotic is if he could refuse the power once he took it and live. I don't know if that's possible and I doubt it is until maybe we see Aesudan walking around.

The point I'm trying to make is if someone offers you a healthy activity like hiking when you're depressed, you're more likely to feel better mentally, physically, and emotionally in the long run. But if someone offers you drugs, sure that might help in the short run but you are now dependent on that person to provide your poison at the expense of the things I stated hiking could give you.

Hope that makes sense.

[Frustration Sliver]

3 hours ago, Beodrakis said:

I don't believe that a "bondsmith" with an unmade will grant adhesion, I just believe that they obtain a more powerful form of the brand that corresponds to said unmade.

Then they aren't a Bondsmith. Bondsmithing is a defined set of powers, existing even before the Nahel bond was discovered.

Edit: Eyyyyy 10,000th post!

Edited January 12 by Frustration

[offer Oldblood]

25 minutes ago, BrightLord Swageas said:

Let me phrase it like this.

Amaram was dealing with the destruction of his reputation and when he tried to make up for his actions or at least try, he was shunted by Dalinar at every turn. So when an actual god pops up and tells him a one-sided truth, this just worsens him condition. Not defending the POS, but ye.

That anger, combined with how much of a hypocrite Dalinar was clearly put him in a vulnerable state of mind, and Odium, doing Odium took advantage of that and had him swallow something that would take give him 'what he wanted'.

I don't know about you but that circumstance of telling someone to swallow something when they're in turmoil is not healthy, whatsoever(unless it's meds).

 

I generally agree with this part. It seems that Odium and Amaram had some talks before this but Odium clearly took advantage Amaram.

But I think this is because Odium doesn`t care for the people and not because the mechanics of the magic are inherently bad.

 

Even for the knights radiant we saw examples of spren bonding human without the human realising what they are agreeing to or when the humans are in a vulnerable state (Kaladin not wanting syl at the begining, Testament bonding a little girl Shallan, you can argue that Lift+Wyndle is aso slightly problematic).

 

My point is that bonding Yelig-nar is probably not neccesserally in such unhealthy situation and maybe it is possible to bond an unmade in an "healthier" way.

[bmcclure7 Arbiter]

On 1/10/2023 at 9:50 PM, Witless of Shinovar said:

good to know, I simply wanted to see if it was false outright before I got too into that theory

It is possible we see it in oathbringer 

[Wittles of Shinovar King's Wit]

Thanks for the answers  

[Elder Arteth]

I would posit the following:

1. If there were such a thing as a Bondsmith to the Unmade, it would function as an “Enlightened” Bondsmith, similar to Renarin acting as an “Enlightened” Truthwatcher.

2. If one of the Unmade were to enter the Nahel Bond, Ba Ado Mishram would probably be it, as she has the power, the lucidity, etc.  she could bind the singer people.  Create a Singer Bondsmith.  2nd in line might be Sja-Anat

3.  Bonding anyone would definitely change one of the Unmade.  If someone were to bond Nergaoul or Ashertmarn (contrary to position 2) it might give them more sentience or will, assuming whatever radiant they bonded weren’t completely overwhelmed.

EDIT

4.  A major obstacle here is whether or not these spren are going to be subject to bonds, and adhesion, something that Odium doesn’t seem to have any part of, may be a big part of this.

5.  At the risk of sounding somewhat like an Inkspren, just because something is, doesn’t mean it will always be.  A sufficiently powerful Bondsmith might be able to help the unmade make a bond.  Funny how we now have one who has pioneered the blending of disparate Lights.

Edited January 12 by Elder

[Quantus Most Ancient]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Then they aren't a Bondsmith. Bondsmithing is a defined set of powers, existing even before the Nahel bond was discovered.

Edit: Eyyyyy 10,000th post!

That's a good point, and the nomenclature has been used differently.  I think I'd call it a Bondsmith if it was a 5-tier Radiant Bond with a Powerful/Unique Sapient spren (which also probably requires a significant direct Connection to a Shard, as the known 3 do).  I would struggle to call them a "Bondsmith" if that doesnt include Adhesion, if for example the Sibling got UnMade successfully in RoW and then bonded somebody, but then I think we'd just be needing names for all the Voidbinding Variant Orders (Renarin included.

We know we dont know all the history so twists are always on the table, but the whole Adhesion is "Not of Odium" bit might have been historically true for the Fused but no longer as relevant/binding now that Odium is Invested in Roshar enough to develop his own Pure Tone.  It's still called VoidBinding, after all.  Which is just to say if a Bond happened now it's possible that an Enlightened spren (or something equivalent) with a Bondsmith-level Connection to Odium would still grant the Spiritual Adhesion as a development of the new Era. This is largely based on the idea that what makes a Godspren capable of forming a Bondsmith with their Radiant Bond is that the Spren themselves possesses a huge (sliver-esk level) Connection to the Shard(s) in question, and on the fact that the main characteristic of the Nightwatcher is that she's not as Connected as the rest but she still creates a Bondsmith.  

My inner child who loves over-the-top anime fights hopes the Voidbinding variant of a Bondsmith would get Spiritual Division instead of spiritual Adhesion, and we have to call them "OathBreakers" or something instead of Bondsmiths, ripping holes between Realms rather than Merging them and similar flavor inversions.  

Also: Nice!  Congrats on the Milestone!

[BrightLord Swageas Ardent]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

My inner child who loves over-the-top anime fights hopes the Voidbinding variant of a Bondsmith would get Spiritual Division instead of spiritual Adhesion, and we have to call them "OathBreakers" or something instead of Bondsmiths, ripping holes between Realms rather than Merging them and similar flavor inversions.  

So...Voidsmiths?