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Death in TotES


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When I was reading Tress, I noticed this line.

Spoiler

Don’t wake me up unless Death himself has shown up, nails in his eyes.

Have Scadrian legends and stories entered Lumar? 

This might be likely, since there was an Elantrian with a laptop there... also the nalthian tech... 

I wonder how many people in the cosmere have heard of Marsh.

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I mentioned it in another thread, but I don’t think Tress has actually heard of Marsh or Death. think the line about Death is an example of Hoid localising the story for his audience.

Lumar doesn’t seem to have any other Scadrian cultural artefacts. Their religion involves worshipping the moons. So the random Ironeyes reference feels like it’s coming out of nowhere if we take it literally.

That’s why I think Tress ‘really’ used some equivalent phrase in her language that the audience wouldn’t have understood, and Hoid ‘translated’ it into a Death reference to keep the effect.

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2 hours ago, RedBlue said:

I mentioned it in another thread, but I don’t think Tress has actually heard of Marsh or Death. think the line about Death is an example of Hoid localising the story for his audience.

Lumar doesn’t seem to have any other Scadrian cultural artefacts. Their religion involves worshipping the moons. So the random Ironeyes reference feels like it’s coming out of nowhere if we take it literally.

That’s why I think Tress ‘really’ used some equivalent phrase in her language that the audience wouldn’t have understood, and Hoid ‘translated’ it into a Death reference to keep the effect.

The thing is, that would be assuming a Scadrian or Scadrians are the audience. I would think the audience is from First of the Sun, considering all the Aviar references. But, most of all, the thing that points to first of the sun is the mention of a story that's probably set on First of the Sun. 

Spoiler

I can understand why you would want tales of people like Linji, who tried to sail around the world with no Aviar.

Or... it could be that it's a world hopper from first of the sun, but the perpendicularity on First of the Sun is dangerous. In this WoB, Brandon says that it's dangerous there

Spoiler

Questioner

I guess... At what point or which book will Sixth of the Dusk eventually tie in to?

Brandon Sanderson

So... Heh...

Questioner

And if that is unanswerable, then how many years until that book comes out?

Brandon Sanderson

It's not unanswerable, but it's a ways off. The problem is that's a weird planet, and visiting it from Shadesmar is-- it just-- in the Cosmere Collection I'll talk about that, okay? It's a weird planet, and getting to it is interesting. 

Questioner

Okay...

Brandon Sanderson

There's no Shard in residence, but there's a Shardpool. But it's on... one of the most dangerous places... that exists. And so, let's just say it's not going to be relevant until you can regularly travel there somehow that doesn't involve popping up into a giant death trap.

Questioner

Okay, follow-up question though. How many people have tried to pop up, only to find out it was a death trap?

Brandon Sanderson

Go ahead and read what Khriss has to say about it.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

But yeah, it does feel like it's coming out of nowhere. Then again, it could mean that Scadrians came over to Lumar randomly and started screaming about Marsh or something. That is definitely likely. Totally.

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I believe the TLM Ars Arcanum suggested Ironeyes' existence was becoming known across other, non-Scadrial planets. First of the Sun would be an odd one for it to be, but it's possible for Lumar.

Also by the time of Sixth of the Dusk, I believe most people arriving on FotS are actually travelling through space FTL and not worldhopping. Although iirc, we don't know where the Ones Above are, and Rosharans might be more likely than Scadrians. Or when Tress actually fits in the timeline.

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3 hours ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

But yeah, it does feel like it's coming out of nowhere. Then again, it could mean that Scadrians came over to Lumar randomly and started screaming about Marsh or something. That is definitely likely. Totally.

Why? Scadrial is supposed to be the center of an interstellar empire. We are centuries in the future. The future will have had a history.
For all we know Lumar is an old Scadrian colony given up for dead when the aethers arrived.
Who do you think will be depicted on the flags of Scadrian space marines? Or pirates. The won't go for skull and bones.

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7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why? Scadrial is supposed to be the center of an interstellar empire. We are centuries in the future. The future will have had a history.
For all we know Lumar is an old Scadrian colony given up for dead when the aethers arrived.

It would depend on how fast Scadrians get to FTL, which might not be immediately. I don't think they'll have it in era 3, though we might have some foreshadowing for it. Then again, Tress could be a while into the future and we just don't know it. Though, I'm inclined to think that it isn't too far into the future since the Iriali were there three hundred years ago. (By Charlie's estimate.) 

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Who do you think will be depicted on the flags of Scadrian space marines? Or pirates. The won't go for skull and bones.

If think it'll be Kelsier's head with spears at the sides.

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21 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I believe the TLM Ars Arcanum suggested Ironeyes' existence was becoming known across other, non-Scadrial planets. First of the Sun would be an odd one for it to be, but it's possible for Lumar.

Yeah I think it must be this. Marsh's image is spreading cosmerewide as death, for some reason

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On 1/6/2023 at 9:27 PM, RedBlue said:

I mentioned it in another thread, but I don’t think Tress has actually heard of Marsh or Death. think the line about Death is an example of Hoid localising the story for his audience.

Lumar doesn’t seem to have any other Scadrian cultural artefacts. Their religion involves worshipping the moons. So the random Ironeyes reference feels like it’s coming out of nowhere if we take it literally.

That’s why I think Tress ‘really’ used some equivalent phrase in her language that the audience wouldn’t have understood, and Hoid ‘translated’ it into a Death reference to keep the effect.

Disagree with this. I think Brandon is hammering in on the TLM mention of knowledge of Marsh spreading throughout the cosmere. Does a Kandra ship doctor count as a Scadrian cultural artifact?

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4 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Does a Kandra ship doctor count as a Scadrian cultural artifact?

When I said ‘cultural artefacts’, I don’t mean worldhoppers, I mean beliefs or practices taken from Scadrial. Lumar natives have their own religion, which involves worshipping the moons, and other than the one weirdly random Death reference, they don’t seem to have been influenced by Scadrian beliefs.

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I agree with @lacrossedeamon.  We know from both contextual clues and WoBs that TotES is "far future" Cosmere, decades or centuries after MB E2 and SA E1.  For whatever reason, whether it makes sense to us now or not, I think Brandon wants us to know that by Tress' time, Marsh-as-Death has a Cosmere-wide reputation.

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I just read that passage a few minutes ago and noticed the exact same thing. My theory is that the Iriali visited Scadrial as part of their long trail post Catacendre and picked up that culture and when they traveled to Lumar they spread it. This theory might be faulty since I don't know where TotES is placed chronologically.

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On 1/7/2023 at 10:36 AM, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

It would depend on how fast Scadrians get to FTL, which might not be immediately. I don't think they'll have it in era 3, though we might have some foreshadowing for it. Then again, Tress could be a while into the future and we just don't know it. Though, I'm inclined to think that it isn't too far into the future since the Iriali were there three hundred years ago. (By Charlie's estimate.) 

If think it'll be Kelsier's head with spears at the sides.

 Ironize makes more sense  At least for the pirates him be death in all. 

 

 That said maybe we can get some Space Marines with Kelseier or at least the spear as their symbol. 

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On 1/16/2023 at 2:36 PM, bmcclure7 said:

 Ironize makes more sense  At least for the pirates him be death in all. 

 

 That said maybe we can get some Space Marines with Kelseier or at least the spear as their symbol. 

Maybe a religious Church of the Survivor space militia?

I'm actually curious what will happen in general in terms of cultural give and take during era 3 and beyond. It seems like there's definitely been overflow onto Lumar - even if this isn't a reference to Marsh, they know Iriali - but there will probably also be clashes between religions from different planets, like heralds and the Elantrians and the gods of nalthis, all of whom are considered deities by their respective planets

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3 hours ago, MGershone said:

Maybe a religious Church of the Survivor space militia?

I'm actually curious what will happen in general in terms of cultural give and take during era 3 and beyond. It seems like there's definitely been overflow onto Lumar - even if this isn't a reference to Marsh, they know Iriali - but there will probably also be clashes between religions from different planets, like heralds and the Elantrians and the gods of nalthis, all of whom are considered deities by their respective planets

Are the Elantrian still considered gods?

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2 hours ago, MGershone said:

To some degree, probably. The Elantrians themselves don't consider themselves gods, but the people on Sel might still deify them.

 Not sure, I mean They were  Completely brought low by the earthquake. I can't imagine any of One worshipping them again. 

 

Gods that are so easily brought low and humiliated publicly Don't usually attract followers.  Besides seems like after the earthquake and the fall of a Elantris  Their own people had already moved on to other religions. I can imagine them switching back again after losing faith in the Elantreans.

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10 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Not sure, I mean They were  Completely brought low by the earthquake. I can't imagine any of One worshipping them again. 

 

Gods that are so easily brought low and humiliated publicly Don't usually attract followers.  Besides seems like after the earthquake and the fall of a Elantris  Their own people had already moved on to other religions. I can imagine them switching back again after losing faith in the Elantreans.

Sure but there was still that undercurrent of hoping they'd come back and that it all might have been a test. Gods work in mysterious ways and all that.

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2 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Sure but there was still that undercurrent of hoping they'd come back and that it all might have been a test. Gods work in mysterious ways and all that.

Perhaps if there were still believes out there that might be the case but the people have moved on. 

More likely there will be imcorpriated in the new religions as non deify but still holy figures.  

 

Not gods anymore but his chosen arch angels. Whom he judged for there pride whom but know he has shown mercy on restoring them to there proper place.  

Edited by bmcclure7
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6 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I mean they talk about it in Elantris how people haven't actually moved on.

Did you not read the book? There is literally not a single worshiper left! Yes they have moved on. 

 Where in the book does it say people are still worshiping them?

Edited by bmcclure7
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27 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Did you not read the book? There is literally not a single worshiper left! Yes they have moved on. 

 Where in the book does it say people are still worshiping them?

Sorry it was actually Raoden and Galladon although I think there might be another bit with Sarene and Omin.

Chapter 7:

Quote

“People have been whispering it for years,” Raoden said, “but no one had the courage to actually teach such things. They’re secretly afraid that the Elantrians are just testing them—that they will return to their former glory someday and punish all the unbelievers.”

“Still?” Galladon asked. “I would have thought such beliefs would be gone after ten years.”

Raoden shook his head. “Even yet there are many who pray for, or fear, the Elantrians’ return. The city was strong, Galladon. You can’t know how beautiful it once was.”

 

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