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Is there anything Bondsmiths can't do?


Frustration

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7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Connecting you to the ground is basically the same thing as A-Chromium.

I dont know that that is entirely the case.  The ground doesn't suddenly absorb the metals in a mistborns stomach.  I dont think it would suddenly leech away all of an awakeners breath.  Perhaps in a way like a metalmind it would strongly dilute biochroma but I dont see it depleting it.  

It works against very short acting investiture like stormlight but that is leaky and doesnt stick anyways.  The other forms of investiture are far less fickle as to flee the holder at first pass.  

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21 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

(Bondsmiths don't even get squires with actual powers, do they?)

They do.

18 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I dont know that that is entirely the case.  The ground doesn't suddenly absorb the metals in a mistborns stomach.  I dont think it would suddenly leech away all of an awakeners breath.  Perhaps in a way like a metalmind it would strongly dilute biochroma but I dont see it depleting it.  

It works against very short acting investiture like stormlight but that is leaky and doesnt stick anyways.  The other forms of investiture are far less fickle as to flee the holder at first pass.  

Breath you would probably be forced to awaken the entire planet if you tried any awakening before the Connection ended, and any metals you were burning would suddenly have their power diluted to the point of ineffectiveness.

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Well, why not? I mean moving it through a perpendicularity is a stretch, but we know from RoW 188 that investiture can't leave Roshar because of Connection, so why would removing that be difficult?

Quote

 

Re banishing the Everstorm, there's probably power limits (Investiture resists Investiture, etc). I don't think when Odium appeared to Dalinar, Dalinar could have just touched him and stolen the Shard.

Also, that might not work because it's touch based, and I don't think they can just *destroy* Connections. If Dalinar replaced the Everstorm's Connection to Roshar with something else he can touch... well all those things are still on Roshar.

 

This is the kind of thing I'm referring to with regards to the scope of their abilities. They're not "Connection Omnipotent" as far as we can tell, even with a buttload of Stormlight. Outside of there ability to be mostly about creating Bonds, they can't unilaterally create, manipulate, or destroy a Connection just because it's a Connection. Beyond specific rules their "Smithing" might need to adhere to, other magical rules still apply. Physical proximity (the Bondsmith is still a human in the physical realm), requisite Investiture, the strength of existing Connections and Bonds (Dalinar can't freely modify his Connection to Odium to any parameters he wishes, for instance), general power limits, Investiture resisting external manipulation. There may be ways around some of these, but they still have to find workarounds and facilitating factors in order to break the rules. Stuff like connecting to a Dawnshard or willing external source of investiture/power, the creation of powerful oaths, or other extenuating circumstances.

Edited by rabidhexley
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1 minute ago, rabidhexley said:

This is the kind of thing I'm referring to with regards to the scope of their abilities. They're not "Connection Omnipotent" as far as we can tell, even with a buttload of Stormlight. They can't unilaterally create, manipulate, or destroy a Connection just because it's a Connection. Beyond specific rules their "Smithing" might need to adhere to, other magical rules still apply. Physical proximity (the Bondsmith is still a human in the physical realm), requisite Investiture, the strength of existing Connections and Bonds (Dalinar can't freely modify his Connection to Odium to any parameters he wishes, for instance), general power limits, Investiture resisting external manipulation. There may be ways around some of these, but they still have to find workarounds and facilitating factors in order to break the rules. Stuff like connecting to a Dawnshard or willing external source of investiture/power, the creation of powerful oaths, or other extenuating circumstances.

Investiture resistance does not seem to apply to Bondsmiths Connection manipulation, see how easily Ishar almost stole the Bond to the Stormfather, even while Dalinar was in the middle of a perpendicularity.

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5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Investiture resistance does not seem to apply to Bondsmiths Connection manipulation, see how easily Ishar almost stole the Bond to the Stormfather, even while Dalinar was in the middle of a perpendicularity.

/shrug, hard to argue one way or another. It's also kind of implied that the perpendicularity being open wasn't a good thing, though it's hard to tell (Dalinar does try to close it though). A Bondsmith fueled by the perpendicularity, directly connected to the spiritual, moving the bond of another, untrained Bondsmith (through physical contact, inside the perpendicularity). Due to Dalinar not being skilled enough to oppose Ishar, the situation and Bondsmith nature of the Connection may have made it favorable for Ishar.

 

I'm also not sure if this could even be classified as Investiture resistance in action. It's an incomplete Nahel-bond, part of the specific domain of Honor's bonds, Bondsmith stuff. I'm referring to changing the nature or action of active Investiture. The Earth-bond thing is a trick, the Investiture is still doing what it wants to do in that situation.

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Also, Ishar vs Dalinar I think is a case of both people having comparable Investiture (both are drawing on the remnants of Honor) where say stealing a full Shard wouldn't be.

And... I don't know how broadly that scene can be extrapolated because there's a sort of appropriateness to what Ishar was trying to steal (bond to Stormfather + "destiny" as champion). Sure he's Herald-insane now, but he's the Bondsmith Herald and was once kind of the spiritual leader of Honor's forces, so both Connections are actually kind of appropriate for him (Herald-madness aside).

So I don't think we can necessarily assume that Ishar or Dalinar could steal/build completely unsuitable Connections (like making a plant the champion or bonding the Stormfather to a chull). I'm not even sure Ishar could steal spren bonds to spren he doesn't have a link to (most non-Bondsmith spren) like say Timbre.

EDIT: I'm also not sure what would happen if the "link to ground" trick was tried with other forms of Investiture. Stormlight is both relatively transient, not discrete like Breath, and Stormlight healing is kind of "automatic". Stormlight goes kinetic very easily; Breaths or Feruchemical metalminds need Intent for that.

So I am not sure what would happen if Ishar linked Azure/Vivenna to the ground. I see at least four possibilities, and no way to choose between them:

1) it's similar to Stormlight, and the Breaths flow to the ground: but because Breaths are discrete, some proportion (probably nearly all because the continent is vastly larger than Vivenna, but possibly half) end up held by the ground, with any remnant held by Vivenna

2) since Breaths don't become kinetic without Command, they don't flow; both Vivenna and the ground now count as holding the *same* set of Breaths; since the ground can't Command them, effectively nothing changes (Vivenna still controls them). This would be equivalent to the WoB about using Forgery to make yourself bonded to a Shardblade someone else is already bonded to: the Shardblade thinks it's bonded to both people.

3) same as above, except the Breaths also being held by the ground interferes with Vivenna's ability to Command them (so Vivenna can't Awaken but presumably still gets passive Heightenings)

4) nothing happens because Breaths are too stuck to Vivenna's Physical self, for the same reason you possibly can't steal Breath with Hemalurgy (WoBs disagree on this though iirc)

I don't think Ishar could steal Breath and use it for himself - Breath is Identity keyed, and control of Connection won't get around that (they're separate Spiritual properties). Ishar might be able to keep someone else from using Breath (unless 2 or 4 is true), but not get it for himself. Similarly for Feruchemical metalminds (that aren't unkeyed or unsealed) - they are Identity keyed not Connection based.

Edited by cometaryorbit
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1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

I'm not even sure Ishar could steal spren bonds to spren he doesn't have a link to (most non-Bondsmith spren) like say Timbre.

Why would he not be able to?

He's able to pull them into the PR.

Edited by Frustration
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1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

 

4) nothing happens because Breaths are too stuck to Vivenna's Physical self, for the same reason you possibly can't steal Breath with Hemalurgy (WoBs disagree on this though iirc)

I don't think Ishar could steal Breath and use it for himself - Breath is Identity keyed, and control of Connection won't get around that (they're separate Spiritual properties). Ishar might be able to keep someone else from using Breath (unless 2 or 4 is true), but not get it for himself. Similarly for Feruchemical metalminds (that aren't unkeyed or unsealed) - they are Identity keyed not Connection based.

Until proven otherwise I'd see this as the case. Stormlight has a very specific nature of naturally flowing within physical vessels, it's the closest thing to free flowing, unkeyed investiture around. Breath doesn't behave this way at all. As you note Breath is keyed to the owner's Identity and Spirit. And Breath never moves without Intent.

 

The ground trick works because the Stormlight sees the Surgebinder and the Earth as the same Physical object, like their body suddenly grew in size, so it flows to fill the new container. The target's spiritweb isn't suddenly encompassing the ground, the trick works because Stormlight has physical properties of behavior. A-Chromium specifically targets investiture. The ground trick is just that, a trick.

 

Edit: Even if breathe did move in this way, which I don't believe is the case, I don't think it would actually even matter. A Breath is a Breath. Even if you were suddenly a big, planet-sized person, you'd still have one Breath. And when the binding wore off you'd still have the Breath because it's tied to your spirit and Identity, not the ground. This is actually why I think the Stormlight trick actually works, because your spirit isn't part of the ground- even though your physical body is -the Stormlight that spreads into it is lost and inaccessible.

 

Unless another form of investiture behaves in this manner I don't think this trick would have any effect at all. I think it would have physical effects on physical powers, like it would shift the center of mass for Steel/Iron pushing, or apply the effects of tapping Frechemical weight to the ground as well. But it wouldn't cause the investiture to suddenly be consumed faster or anything. It wouldn't effect burning Tin or other mental arts, for instance, the ground isn't a part of your spirit or mind, you're just physically attached to it, it's a part of your body. Most Investiture doesn't have this "flowing within a container" property Stormlight does. Burning allomantic metals is the spirit applying investiture, the investiture isn't a substance filling the container of the body. Unless we're talking about an application that directly related to physical size or mass, I'm doubtful it would do anything other than stick you to the ground.

Edited by rabidhexley
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This just gave me much easier idea for planet wide destruction without involvement of the Dawnshard. If Bondsmith bonds feruchemist to the whole planet, he can store in metalminds speed and weight, causing deorbit of this planet. Then get out through CR, and after few years, this planet would become frozen rough planet wandering among nothingness. Or he can deorbit it straight into the sun. "easier"

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Just now, alder24 said:

This just gave me much easier idea for planet wide destruction without involvement of the Dawnshard. If Bondsmith bonds feruchemist to the whole planet, he can store in metalminds speed and weight, causing deorbit of this planet. Then get out through CR, and after few years, this planet would become frozen rough planet wandering among nothingness. Or he can deorbit it straight into the sun. "easier"

How large of a metalmind would they need for that?

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17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How large of a metalmind would they need for that?

Seems a bit impractical lol. You'd need a crazy mass of Iron, even with the efficiency of metalmind storage, planetary mass is straight up ridiculous, Even if we were "just" talking the Earth's crust, and that goes for the momentum of the Earth's rotation/orbit as well. Would it allow one to fill an Iron or Steel metalmind instantaneously though? Is rate of storage based on the mass of the Feruchemist?

 

If it's based on your "Spiritual Mass" (like what your Spirit actually recognizes as your body for healing purposes), then you'd never be able to fill a mind fast enough to have an effect since the mass change is just temporary. If it is, then maybe an international effort could get a contiguous lump big enough to make a notable difference for a fraction of a second.

Edited by rabidhexley
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20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How large of a metalmind would they need for that?

Quite a bit, or not. Iron is plentiful in planet, so they can use that (like a looot in the core, 30% of Earth is iron). But even slight changes in planet's speed can throw it into an unstable orbit. So steel would be needed, but hey, there is a lot of human constructions and tools lying around the planet, so he can use it! So he stores mass as much as he can, which lowers inertia, which makes small speed changes have much more drastic effects.

Edited by alder24
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5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Quite a bit, or not. Iron is plentiful in planet, so they can use that (like a looot in the core). But even slight changes in planet's speed can throw into an unstable orbit. So steel would be needed, but hey, there is a lot of human constructions and tools lying around the planet, so he can use it! So he stores mass as much as he can, which lowers inertia, which makes small speed changes have much drastic effects.

Gotta remember the change is only temporary though. You'd need a contiguous metalmind big enough to contain a continuous flow long enough to have orbital effects due to the significance of the mass change. Do we know about how Steel metalminds effect momentum? Cause they could have the same problem. Even if you could fill at an incredibly fast rate you'd just be going from metalmind to metalmind, filling them instantly and having no lasting effects on the planet. That is unless you could get a solid pole fused with the mantle or something lol to give you a sufficiently large metalmind.

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1 minute ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

If Fuerochemistry thinks that you are fisically 1 object with the planet, then you should be able to fill the metal at the core because it thinks your in it.

The questions are

  1. Does the planet have an iron core?
  2. is the core pure enough to actually store in?
  3. Can you store in liquid metals?
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23 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

If Fuerochemistry thinks that you are fisically 1 object with the planet, then you should be able to fill the metal at the core because it thinks your in it.

That is up for question as well, though. You may just be bound to the ground, like the ground immediately around you, not necessarily the planet as a whole. This would still allow the Stormlight trick to work, the surrounding ground is a much bigger container than your body, but it definitely ain't the planet. Even just on a Physical level forging a physical Connection to the entire planet even temporarily would probably be a pretty massive working. Possible, but far from easy.

 

I'm also unsure about the notion on the level of your Spiritweb and how metalminds work. A hemalurgic spike works by piercing your soul via it's mapping on your body. And metalminds work by being in contact with or within the "bounds" of your bodily spirit. I think just being physically connected to the ground wouldn't make any metal contained in the ground valid. The ground is valid as part of your physical body in terms of physical mass and position, but it's not an actual extension of your spirt allowing you to connect to metals. Your Spirit doesn't change shape very easily, and having your body temporarily extended in the Physical realm wouldn't be enough to change this.

 

Edit: Same reason the Surgebinder can't use the Stormlight flowing into the ground, essentially.

 

Same would apply for Allomancy. It needs to be "within" your Spiritweb, so to speak, so just your 'actual' body. Otherwise you could burn Duralumin and consume all of the metal in a planet if it was pure enough. The Iron Pull to literally end all Iron Pulls.

Edited by rabidhexley
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24 minutes ago, rabidhexley said:

Gotta remember the change is only temporary though. You'd need a contiguous metalmind big enough to contain a continuous flow long enough to have orbital effects due to the significance of the mass change. Do we know about how Steel metalminds effect momentum? Cause they could have the same problem. Even if you could fill at an incredibly fast rate you'd just be going from metalmind to metalmind, filling them instantly and having no lasting effects on the planet. That is unless you could get a solid pole fused with the mantle or something lol to give you a sufficiently large metalmind.

Temporary can be devastating. So in orbits, mass of a planet doesn't affect its orbital velocity, it's distance from the sun that matters. Changing mass of a planet, changes its inertia. And this makes it much easier to manipulate orbital speed, as you now require less energy to change speed. So Feruchemist could mess up planet's orbit, shortening it, and Fullborn can straight up launch it into space, as he can compound. Before planet returns to its old orbit it would burn a lot (if it does it),as it would take longer to return as mass is back to normal and inertia is greater. Of course, I can be very wrong, it's orbital mechanics.

From Wax's experience, momentum works as it should work. I don't know if there is any filling speed, he can access weight of an bulding in split of the second

1 minute ago, Frustration said:
  1. Can you store in liquid metals?

Earth's core is solid.

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:
  • is the core pure enough to actually store in?

How pure it needs to be? I don't know if iron in Earth's core is bonded with carbon, there is a bit carbon there (~0.1%, which is like 90% if Earth's carbon), so Iron should be in it's purest form. There is some nickel there as well. But there is a lot of iron in crust as well.

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:
  • Does the planet have an iron core?

It's rocky planet, is not burned to ground by solar winds, have atmosphere, so yeah, it does have an iron core.

 

Fullborn could rickrolled whole planet by storing memory in all of copper on the planet (if compounding copper works by copying memory).

 

1 minute ago, rabidhexley said:

That is up for question as well, though. You may just be bound to the ground, like the ground immediately around you, not necessarily the planet as a whole. This would still allow the Stormlight trick to work, the surrounding ground is a much bigger container than your body, but it definitely ain't the planet.

 

I'm also unsure about the notion on the level of your Spiritweb and how metalminds work. A hemalurgic spike works by piercing your soul via it's mapping on your body. I think it's likely that metalminds work by being in contact with or within the "bounds" of your bodily spirit. I think just being physically connected to the ground wouldn't make any metal contained in the planet valid. The planet is valid as part of your physical body in terms of physical mass and position, but it's not an actual extension of your spirt allowing you to connect to metals. Your Spirit doesn't change shape very easily, and having it temporarily extended in the Physical realm wouldn't be enough to change this.

Yes, I know it probably doesn't work that way (unless Bondsmith specifically bonds him with whole planet), this is just fun idea I had, while being bored.

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3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Earth's core is solid.

The inner core is yes, but these planets aren't earth.

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

How pure it needs to be?

Unknown.

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

t's rocky planet, is not burned to ground by solar winds, have atmosphere, so yeah, it does have an iron core.

Well, Roshar doesn't have a molten core, so that's not true in the Cosmere, either shardaic intervation, or investiture or whatever.

And I'm pretty sure you can get a magnetic field with other elements.

Edited by Frustration
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11 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

So you say that if a fuerochemist is touching a statue or building, the building is part of their spiritweb for a short time?

I think the spiritweb alows you to fill anything you are physically touching.

I mean physical contact with the contiguous metal object in question. Your Spirit is mapped to the current "ideal shape" of your body. So I'm not sure if trickery involving temporary physical changes would work, even if you're physically bonded to an object your skin is still your skin as identified by your spirit.

 

Stormlight for instance needs to be inside your actual body to work, which is why the ground trick works, because even though your body is physically extended your spirit still needs the source to be present where it's actually mapped in the Physical realm. The stormlight is flowing to "fill your (phsyical) body", but your spirit no longer has access to it for the purpose of performing magic.

 

Even though the planet is physically part of your body. Your spirit still only considers your actual body to be your body when it comes to magical effects like access to discrete investiture like a metalmind or allomantic metal to burn.

Edited by rabidhexley
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33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The inner core is yes, but these planets aren't earth.

Rocky planets do have iron core, it's because of how and where in star's orbit they have been formed. Was Roshar as a whole made by Adonalsium, or just it's continent?

Spoiler

BipedSnowman

Does this [map of Roshar] look like a storm to anyone else?

Brandon Sanderson

I was searching for something that at once felt organic, but would hint at a pattern. (Much like cymatic patterns, as referenced in the first book.) Fractals and mathematical functions became my go-to place to hunt, as I like the blend of structure and spontaneity they can sometimes exhibit. The slice of the Julia Set was the one that stuck with me as feeling perfect for Roshar. As the continent was specifically grown by Adonalsium, you now know the seed that was used in-world to create it.

The fact that it looked like a swirling cloud is part of this all--but also part of the connection between natural patterns and the underlying math, which is a primary theme of the Stormlight books. So yes, it SHOULD look like a storm--but for deeper reasons than you might assume.

Argent

I asked Isaac recently, but he suggested you might be the right person for this - do you have a specific equation for the Julia set you used to generate Roshar? I know it resembles a few easily Google-able images of (shadows of slices of) Julia sets, but I was curious if had specific numbers here.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't have any numbers I could give you. Sorry. I might be able to find them, if I looked, but it would take more time than I'd like.

Footnote: The specific equations were determined later in that reddit conversation.
General Reddit 2016 (Sept. 9, 2016)
35 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well, Roshar doesn't have a molten core, so that's not true in the Cosmere, either shardaic intervation, or investiture or whatever.

Source on Roshar's core?

36 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And I'm pretty sure you can get a magnetic field with other elements.

You can, but Roshar is not a gas giant like Jupiter. Magnetic field is genereted due to flow of magnetic elements and rotation of the planet, so it needs to be liquid.

 

42 minutes ago, rabidhexley said:

Stormlight for instance needs to be inside your actual body to work, which is why the ground trick works, because even though your body is physically extended your spirit still needs the source to be present where it's actually mapped in the Physical realm. The stormlight is flowing to "fill your (phsyical) body", but your spirit no longer has access to it for the purpose of performing magic.

This is great explanation.

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9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Rocky planets do have iron core, it's because of how and where in star's orbit they have been formed. Was Roshar as a whole made by Adonalsium, or just it's continent?

  Reveal hidden contents

BipedSnowman

Does this [map of Roshar] look like a storm to anyone else?

Brandon Sanderson

I was searching for something that at once felt organic, but would hint at a pattern. (Much like cymatic patterns, as referenced in the first book.) Fractals and mathematical functions became my go-to place to hunt, as I like the blend of structure and spontaneity they can sometimes exhibit. The slice of the Julia Set was the one that stuck with me as feeling perfect for Roshar. As the continent was specifically grown by Adonalsium, you now know the seed that was used in-world to create it.

The fact that it looked like a swirling cloud is part of this all--but also part of the connection between natural patterns and the underlying math, which is a primary theme of the Stormlight books. So yes, it SHOULD look like a storm--but for deeper reasons than you might assume.

Argent

I asked Isaac recently, but he suggested you might be the right person for this - do you have a specific equation for the Julia set you used to generate Roshar? I know it resembles a few easily Google-able images of (shadows of slices of) Julia sets, but I was curious if had specific numbers here.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't have any numbers I could give you. Sorry. I might be able to find them, if I looked, but it would take more time than I'd like.

Footnote: The specific equations were determined later in that reddit conversation.
General Reddit 2016 (Sept. 9, 2016)

 

The whole system was made

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

How is Ashyn Earth-like given its orbit? It should be even less habitable than Roshar.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Rosharan system was manufactured for a specific purpose. The position of the moons isn’t stable and even the continent itself might eventually vanish.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Source on Roshar's core?

There's no tectonic activity

Spoiler

Questioner

I'm a geologist. I was wondering does Scadrial have tectonics the way Earth does?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Scadrial does have tectonics. Roshar doesn't. I think it's the only one I built that doesn't, because of some specific things. But yes, Scadrial tectonic.

MisCon 2018 (May 26, 2018)

 

14 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You can, but Roshar is not a gas giant like Jupiter. Magnetic field is genereted due to flow of magnetic elements and rotation of the planet, so it needs to be liquid.

Now it does have a magnetic field, but it's implied that the field might be artificial

Spoiler

Neuxue

Does Roshar have a magnetic field?  

Brandon Sanderson

Um, Roshar, magnetic field, yes, it does. Yes. Yeah it does  

Neuxue

You said at one point that it is all one plate--  

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Neuxue

--that there's no tectonic activity. What is the interior of the planet like?  

Brandon Sanderson

That’s a good question... You're not going to get an answer on that one. It's a weird planet, let's just say that. It's a pretty weird planet

Neuxue

Are the diamonds naturally occurring?  

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but most are going to be-- They aren't-- all gemstones are naturally occurring, but most of, many or most of, the gems they are getting they are getting from creatures that grow them, not from the rock. Though there are mines on Roshar, you just have to-- most of them are on the leeward side of mountains, where the crem isn't being deposited.

Neuxue

So, diamond mines are about tectonics--

Brandon Sanderson

It was a created planet, keep that in mind.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

 

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So Roshar might or might not have iron core. But it still has a lot of iron in its crust. 

17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Neuxue

--that there's no tectonic activity. What is the interior of the planet like?  

Brandon Sanderson


That’s a good question... You're not going to get an answer on that one.

Why no answer on interior? What first came to my mind is hollow Roshar. 

Edited by alder24
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