Is there anything Bondsmiths can't do?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Pretty much

The power of both of them combined

Do you mean burned through? Because yes

So creating the metal would not take away from anything?   

Tanavastium is what honor blades and likely shardblades are made out of?  

Does this work like this for all shardmetals?  

How invested were the pieces of Lerasium?  If there were 16 beads and Leras basically gave up his body to produce them how does a bead of Lerasium compare investiture wise to a shardblade?   

Would the beads of Lerasium forged into a blade have the same cutting properties as shardblades?   How is it that Honor was able to splinter into so many shards yet preservation crapped out after just 16 beads?  

Were the shards equal parts, investiture wise, Adonalsium?  

I actually believe it could be possible for a bondsmith to make the godmetal but I don't know if I agree based on the same premise.   

I think that the mist is to preservation as stormlight is to honor.   Perhaps each shard has its own gaseous / liquid / solid form.   

What is it about roshar that allows these forms so easily drawn from and readily available.  It makes sense to me that a discrepancy in the shards investiture and worlds investiture levels could be dependent on the idea that Adonalsium was more honor than preservation / ruin and thus honor simply had more investiture to start... or a key to the larger portion of total investiture in the cosmere?  

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So creating the metal would not take away from anything?  

Well, no more than burning wood takes matter away from the planet. It won't be wood again for a long time, and for the moment the overall amount of wood is lower, but eventually it will come back.

3 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Tanavastium is what honor blades and likely shardblades are made out of?

Well shardblades are an honor+cultivation alloy, but yes.

3 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Does this work like this for all shardmetals?

Yes

3 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

How invested were the pieces of Lerasium?  If there were 16 beads and Leras basically gave up his body to produce them how does a bead of Lerasium compare investiture wise to a shardblade?  

Well shardblades are sentient, so their more invested, and the lerasium beads are mere drops in a ocean that is Preservation's power.

4 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Would the beads of Lerasium forged into a blade have the same cutting properties as shardblades?

Probably not, as Brandon has hinted that Shardblades require sentience.

5 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

How is it that Honor was able to splinter into so many shards yet preservation crapped out after just 16 beads? 

Preservation could have done more, but didn't.

5 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Were the shards equal parts, investiture wise, Adonalsium? 

Yes.

6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think that the mist is to preservation as stormlight is to honor.

They are

6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

What is it about roshar that allows these forms so easily drawn from and readily available.  It makes sense to me that a discrepancy in the shards investiture and worlds investiture levels could be dependent on the idea that Adonalsium was more honor than preservation / ruin and thus honor simply had more investiture to start... or a key to the larger portion of total investiture in the cosmere?  

I'm not sure, but I think Roshar just has weaker realmatic barriers, that's why so species have shadows that react to cognitive rules, or singers can hear the Spiritual realm.

[cometaryorbit]

Most of a Shard's power isn't in physical form.

A Shard's total power level is insanely high. Just part of Preservation's power was sufficient to move a planet, which is an incredibly colossal amount of energy.

16 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So creating the metal would not take away from anything?   

Tanavastium is what honor blades and likely shardblades are made out of?  

Does this work like this for all shardmetals?  

Technically creating the metal is a tiny bit of the Shard's power put into the Physical. It is still part of the Shard, but that power (Investiture) is "committed", frozen into physical form, and can't be used for something else.

However, it's a tiny fraction. It only mattered for Preservation and Ruin because they were originally exactly equal and perfectly balanced, so that comparatively tiny amount invested in humans' souls (Preservation) and atium (Ruin) made the balance imperfect.

You can get a whole six foot Shardblade out of a regular Radiant spren, a tiny bead of atium isn't really that much Investiture.

16 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

How invested were the pieces of Lerasium?  If there were 16 beads and Leras basically gave up his body to produce them how does a bead of Lerasium compare investiture wise to a shardblade?   

Would the beads of Lerasium forged into a blade have the same cutting properties as shardblades?   How is it that Honor was able to splinter into so many shards yet preservation crapped out after just 16 beads?  

Were the shards equal parts, investiture wise, Adonalsium? 

The lerasium wasn't a significant chunk of Preservation. His power in the Physical Realm was more in the Well and mists. The Well was a huge amount of power (enough to move a planet!) and the mists seem to have been a significant amount of his power as well.

(A small amount of Ruin 'mist', as black smoke, shows up in WoA. But it's tiny in comparison to Preservation's mists.)

All sixteen Shards were originally equal, but some have more of their power 'committed' to something in the Physical, and some are outright Splintered. Not just dead Vessel like Ati/Ruin, Leras/Preservation, Vin/Preservation, but actually the Shard itself broken apart so the Investiture now has separate Intent and so on. This happened to Devotion (creating seons and half the Dor), Dominion (creating skaze and half the Dor), and Honor (contributing to the Investiture that creates spren on Roshar, though spren existed way before - they were less numerous though).

Edited January 4, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well, no more than burning wood takes matter away from the planet. It won't be wood again for a long time, and for the moment the overall amount of wood is lower, but eventually it will come back.

Well shardblades are an honor+cultivation alloy, but yes.

Yes

Well shardblades are sentient, so their more invested, and the lerasium beads are mere drops in a ocean that is Preservation's power.

Probably not, as Brandon has hinted that Shardblades require sentience.

Preservation could have done more, but didn't.

Yes.

They are

I'm not sure, but I think Roshar just has weaker realmatic barriers, that's why so species have shadows that react to cognitive rules, or singers can hear the Spiritual realm.

Thinking about the weaker realmatic barriers... is it connection that changes the thickness of these walls?   

Do you think a duralumin compounder could potentially increase their connection so much that they could inhale the mist and become a mistborn through that or simply just access the power of preservation?   Perhaps gain access to a similar healing effect as other gaseous forms of investiture?  

3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Most of a Shard's power isn't in physical form.

A Shard's total power level is insanely high. Just part of Preservation's power was sufficient to move a planet, which is an incredibly colossal amount of energy.

Technically creating the metal is a tiny bit of the Shard's power put into the Physical. It is still part of the Shard, but that power (Investiture) is "committed", frozen into physical form, and can't be used for something else.

However, it's a tiny fraction. It only mattered for Preservation and Ruin because they were originally exactly equal and perfectly balanced, so that comparatively tiny amount invested in humans' souls (Preservation) and atium (Ruin) made the balance imperfect.

You can get a whole six foot Shardblade out of a regular Radiant spren, a tiny bead of atium isn't really that much Investiture.

The lerasium wasn't a significant chunk of Preservation. His power in the Physical Realm was more in the Well and mists. The Well was a huge amount of power (enough to move a planet!) and the mists seem to have been a significant amount of his power as well.

(A small amount of Ruin 'mist', as black smoke, shows up in WoA. But it's tiny in comparison to Preservation's mists.)

All sixteen Shards were originally equal, but some have more of their power 'committed' to something in the Physical, and some are outright Splintered. (Not just dead Vessel like Ati/Ruin, Leras/Preservation, Vin/Preservation, but actually the Shard itself broken apart so the Investiture now has separate Intent and so on. This happened to Devotion (creating seons and half the Dor), Dominion (creating skaze and half the Dor), and Honor (contributing to the Investiture that creates spren on Roshar, though spren existed way before - they were less numerous though).

So the splinters are holding sentience due to the fact that honor is dead in the case of shards? 

Would a blade forged with a small % of a godmetal x take less breaths to awaken and give you a cutting effect such as shardblades?  

Is it possible that there was physical atium forgewelded into the steel that makes up nightblood or could a chunk of godmetal being forgewelded into a blade reduce the amount of breath and perhaps give a totally different effect from what we saw with nightblood?  

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Thinking about the weaker realmatic barriers... is it connection that changes the thickness of these walls?  

No idea.

3 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you think a duralumin compounder could potentially increase their connection so much that they could inhale the mist and become a mistborn through that or simply just access the power of preservation?   Perhaps gain access to a similar healing effect as other gaseous forms of investiture? 

It wouldn't permanently make them Mistborn, but they could use the mist to replicate any metal yes.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No idea.

It wouldn't permanently make them Mistborn, but they could use the mist to replicate any metal yes.

I am trying to put this all together in my mind.  

Perhaps the use of surges is based on the connection that a radiant has to a specific alloy (based on % of the two shards making up the spren type that radiant is bonded to)?   

Like a mistborn has access to all metals but a misting only has access to 1.   Perhaps there is a connection issue with what alloys you are connected enough with to draw on the investiture.  

In the case of radiants are the spren the same as the alloys and thus bonding to them allows you access to the key for specific powers?  Then they may breathe in the stormlight to fuel whichever surges they have a bond with the key to use?  

Would certain orders be more efficient using lifelight based on the % of cultivation that the spren are made up of?  

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Would a blade forged with a small % of a godmetal x take less breaths to awaken and give you a cutting effect such as shardblades?  

No, investiture resist being invested - that's why you can't awaken something that is already awaken, and you can't awaken something already invested - like god metals. 

It would actually take insanely amounts of Breaths to awaken a god metal, as you need to break through that already invested metal resistance to your investiture - so it's nearly impossible.

Spoiler

Questioner

So is it possible to Awaken a Shardblade? That's the question-- that's my question for you.

Brandon Sanderson

Um... With the magic system of Awakening, you mean?

Questioner

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

So, all forms of Investiture strongly resist other forms of Investiture.

Questioner

Makes sense.

Brandon Sanderson

*brief interruption* Nightblood is essentially an Awakened... Trying to do that.

Questioner

'Cause he shows up in Words of Radiance, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So, it-- let's just say it'd be very, very hard. Because it's like saying, "Can-- I want to turn on a lightbulb that's been turned on." Yes, you can... maybe... I don't know what that even means. It's already Invested. It's already Awakened.

Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

 

14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Is it possible that there was physical atium forgewelded into the steel that makes up nightblood or could a chunk of godmetal being forgewelded into a blade reduce the amount of breath and perhaps give a totally different effect from what we saw with nightblood?  

Atium is Atium, it is already an element on Scadrial's periodic table so it won't become steel - but it can be alloyed with steel. It's hard to say if in what form and if Ruin's investiture was used during Nightblood creation, however I doubt it was in physical form, as like written above, awakening invested object is mostly impossible. We know that metal used for blade was steel, so if any Ruin's investiture was used, it would be used alongside Breaths infused into sword to awaken it. OR as Ruin's intent is universally accessible (everyone can use hemalurgy, Ruin care only about increasing entropy) the very command "destroy", which is Ruinous, might unintentionally infused Nightblood with Ruin's investiture. But that's just my thought, we know only this WoB about Ruin and Nightblood:

Spoiler

Walin

Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. 

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So the splinters are holding sentience due to the fact that honor is dead in the case of shards? 

Not exactly, enough Investiture on its own will gain sentience. Odium has his own sprens (splinters) and they are sentience while Odium is not splintered. Splinters are often sentient, and may have its own intent, seperated from Shard's intent.

14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Perhaps the use of surges is based on the connection that a radiant has to a specific alloy (based on % of the two shards making up the spren type that radiant is bonded to)?   

I think the bigger importance on what surges are granted via Nahel Bond is the intent of the spren itself, rather than alloy of its investiture. But tbf I don't know. From Coppermind:

Quote

The first Surgebinders came to be as a result of spren trying to imitate what Honor had given his Heralds. The spren formed bonds with the mankind to give them Surgebinding abilities. Honor was surprised by their coming, because he hadn't taught it to his Heralds

 

14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Would certain orders be more efficient using lifelight based on the % of cultivation that the spren are made up of?  

No, they all can use only Stormlight, as far as we know, except for Lift, her spirit web was changed by Cultivation and that's why she can use ONLY Lifelight, she creates it form food.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

No, investiture resist being invested - that's why you can't awaken something that is already awaken, and you can't awaken something already invested - like god metals. 

It would actually take insanely amounts of Breaths to awaken a god metal, as you need to break through that already invested metal resistance to your investiture - so it's nearly impossible.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

So is it possible to Awaken a Shardblade? That's the question-- that's my question for you.

Brandon Sanderson

Um... With the magic system of Awakening, you mean?

Questioner

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

So, all forms of Investiture strongly resist other forms of Investiture.

Questioner

Makes sense.

Brandon Sanderson

*brief interruption* Nightblood is essentially an Awakened... Trying to do that.

Questioner

'Cause he shows up in Words of Radiance, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So, it-- let's just say it'd be very, very hard. Because it's like saying, "Can-- I want to turn on a lightbulb that's been turned on." Yes, you can... maybe... I don't know what that even means. It's already Invested. It's already Awakened.

Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

 

Atium is Atium, it is already an element on Scadrial's periodic table so it won't become steel - but it can be alloyed with steel. It's hard to say if in what form and if Ruin's investiture was used during Nightblood creation, however I doubt it was in physical form, as like written above, awakening invested object is mostly impossible. We know that metal used for blade was steel, so if any Ruin's investiture was used, it would be used alongside Breaths infused into sword to awaken it. OR as Ruin's intent is universally accessible (everyone can use hemalurgy, Ruin care only about increasing entropy) the very command "destroy", which is Ruinous, might unintentionally infused Nightblood with Ruin's investiture. But that's just my thought, we know only this WoB about Ruin and Nightblood:

  Reveal hidden contents

Walin

Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. 

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

Not exactly, enough Investiture on its own will gain sentience. Odium has his own sprens (splinters) and they are sentience while Odium is not splintered. Splinters are often sentient, and may have its own intent, seperated from Shard's intent.

I think the bigger importance on what surges are granted via Nahel Bond is the intent of the spren itself, rather than alloy of its investiture. But tbf I don't know. From Coppermind:

 

No, they all can use only Stormlight, as far as we know, except for Lift, her spirit web was changed by Cultivation and that's why she can use ONLY Lifelight, she creates it form food.

Thanks for showing these and straightening this out.  I've read all of that a hundred times in other threads but my brain went off on a weird train yesterday trying to put together the cutting power of shardblades with what is a godmetal.  

Legit looking back I think I was dumber in cosmere after genuinely trying to learn more at no fault of anyone but myself.  

 

So given what splinters are vs what shardmetals are would a bondsmith being able to create shardmetal allow them to create a blade at all?   

If it is the sentience of the metal that allows it to cut as we see nightblood and shards do then what would need to happen?  

What went into honorblades to allow them to give access to surges and cut as a shardblade does?   Is that a very specific to tanavastium trait or is there a slight sentience to honorblades as well?   

 

 

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Legit looking back I think I was dumber in cosmere after genuinely trying to learn more at no fault of anyone but myself. 

We all have that happen at some point.

5 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So given what splinters are vs what shardmetals are would a bondsmith being able to create shardmetal allow them to create a blade at all?   

I don't know, but it is theoretically possible for their spren to from blades.

8 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If it is the sentience of the metal that allows it to cut as we see nightblood and shards do then what would need to happen?  

Additional investiture giving the blade sentience.

8 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

What went into honorblades to allow them to give access to surges and cut as a shardblade does?   Is that a very specific to tanavastium trait or is there a slight sentience to honorblades as well?   

Honorblades are self aware.

Spoiler

Fluffy (paraphrased)

When the Five Scholars traveled to Roshar, this happened post Recreance, so most Shardblades would have been dead, how did Nightblood gain sapience?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Shardblades weren’t the only Blades around that were active, there were Honorblades. Honorblades are self-aware, but do not manifest a spren in the Cognitive Realm.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 15, 2022)

 

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

What went into honorblades to allow them to give access to surges and cut as a shardblade does? 

No idea. They are most likely so invested that they just cut in 2 realms - Spiritual and Physical. I think there was a WoB that explains how they cut.

7 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So given what splinters are vs what shardmetals are would a bondsmith being able to create shardmetal allow them to create a blade at all?   

If it is the sentience of the metal that allows it to cut as we see nightblood and shards do then what would need to happen?  

Splinters are sprens. But when bonded, Sprens can manifest fully in PR as a physical object, by converting themselves into god metal. Thus "metal" is sentient but it's still a spren. Can Bondsmith replicate this? I doubt. They would somehow take huge amount of Stormlight and compress it so it would change state into metal (no idea if that would work). The simplest way is to make new spren, but that's what Stormfather can do, not Bondsmith. 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No idea. They are most likely so invested that they just cut in 2 realms - Spiritual and Physical. I think there was a WoB that explains how they cut.

Splinters are sprens. But when bonded, Sprens can manifest fully in PR as a physical object, by converting themselves into god metal. Thus "metal" is sentient but it's still a spren. Can Bondsmith replicate this? I doubt. They would somehow take huge amount of Stormlight and compress it so it would change state into metal (no idea if that would work). The simplest way is to make new spren, but that's what Stormfather can do, not Bondsmith. 

It makes sense that you could compress the gaseous forms of a shard into solid.  I imagine enough tension and pressure plus the adhesion to hold it fast might be able to make the metal.  

I guess my question is would enough atium or lerasium beads forged into a knife give you an edge that cuts on the spiritual as well.   Scadrial seems to have a lot more access to harmonium than other planets have access to their godmetals.  Is harmonium unable to cut on both realms being a godmetal or do you suspect the usages of harmonium just offer so much more in the form of allomantic grenades, bombs and fueling so much of their tech that taking it and making it a blade is simply impractical?   

Is tunnelvisioning onto shard weapons and armor actually a hindrance to progression?   

Edited January 5, 2023 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I guess my question is would enough atium or lerasium beads forged into a knife give you an edge that cuts on the spiritual as well.   Scadrial seems to have a lot more access to harmonium than other planets have access to their godmetals.  Is harmonium unable to cut on both realms being a godmetal or do you suspect the usages of harmonium just offer so much more in the form of allomantic grenades, bombs and fueling so much of their tech that taking it and making it a blade is simply impractical?   

You don't want to make Harmonium sword. It explodes even in contact with water vapor, not to mention blood.

Quote

Questioner

Since you have basically established that spren are at least to some extent alive, how is it possible for a Shardblade to not cut right through a living weapon, like Syl for example.

Brandon Sanderson

What you are seeing is: when they are pulling through into the Physical Realm they are creating something that is not 100% physical, not 100% metal, it's like an amalgamation of the two. And that is doing something very special that then prevents other things from cutting through it. It's specifically the way that it's happening. You could make this happen with other things too.

Another big part of it is the amount of Investiture. If something is highly Invested it's going to stop a Shardblade too, because the Investiture is gonna kinda bounce off of each other. It's theoretical, for instance, you could make a Hemalurgic spike that would stop a Shardblade...

So, Invest something highly and it will stop a Shardblade almost always. But, you can cut souls; they are highly Invested also. So you need something in the Physical Realm that is pulling power through from the other Realms.

Bonn Signing (May 15, 2019)

I don't know if simply making Atium sword would be enough to cut like Shardblade, but at very least you would have a Shardblade resistant sword. Nightblood is an attempt on making a Shardblade, and it wasn't just made by giving a sword lots of investiture. 

Here's WoB on how Shardblade cut 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

I have it cutting right now, but I don't know if I can have it actually completely cut because we slide it through the rock and things like that, right? So it's gotta be that, like, atomizing a little bit into Investiture or something like that. Because I use it in a way that they just-- but there's not really friction on it, so mathematically I'd probably have to say that something is vanishing... I don't want it to but I probably have to.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

Also my mistake, Shardblades cut in all 3 realms.

The problem with making anything from god metals, is that they are very rare, and limited, and in most cases require will of the Shard to give you that metal.

[cometaryorbit]

I wouldn't be surprised if a Bondsmith could potentially create Splinters with the right "starting material", kind of like how Nightblood is basically a Splinter made out of Breaths, but the problem IMO is that Rosharan Lights... evaporate. Even if not used they don't stay around forever. I think you'd need a more persistent form of Investiture, like Breaths, to make a Splinter.

Maybe they could do it in the right spot on the Cognitive Realm, like in a place where spren are born, though? But even then they might be relying on the "natural" process there...

I still don't think that a Bondsmith could create a new type of Splinters (like Honor making the Honorblades or Endowment making Divine Breath) with Rosharan magic alone. New individual spren of a known type, maybe possible under the right circumstances, but we don't know the process enough to say.

I'm not sure if they can manipulate Identity and Intent enough to make a Splinter anyway, though. Awakening has a lot of Intent and Command built into it. I am not sure (Radiant-style) Surgebinding is as flexible that way, and creating a new Identity may be a bit beyond their powers, which are really focused on Connection.

Edited January 5, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[rabidhexley]

I feel like a lot of what I see in these Bondsmith threads is conflating "Ability to manipulate Connection" (which is an incredibly OP and flexible power) with "Absolute control over Connection" almost on the level of a Shard. I think Bondsmiths are fairly busted (that's why there's so few of them), but I feel like there are a lot of hypotheticals that are overestimating how much can be done solely with Connection at a baseline, as well as overestimating the degree of power and control Bondsmiths have over Connection.

 

Their control of a fundamental Realmatic quality is on a level beyond what we've seen from any other magic-users currently. But I don't think that it's on the level of magnitude or granularity to do basically anything they want with Connection. And I don't think Connection is a catch-all that can just be used in any way imaginable, there are other fundamental qualities to investiture and Realmatic theory that they don't have any direct control over.

Edited January 9, 2023 by rabidhexley

[StanLemon]

57 minutes ago, rabidhexley said:

I feel like a lot of what I see in these Bondsmith threads is conflating "Ability to manipulate Connection" (which is an incredibly OP and flexible power) with "Absolute control over Connection" almost on the level of a Shard. I think Bondsmiths are fairly busted (that's why there's so few of them), but I feel like there are a lot of hypotheticals that are overestimating how much can be done solely with Connection at a baseline, as well as overestimating the degree of power and control Bondsmiths have over Connection.

 

Their control of a fundamental Realmatic quality is on a level beyond what we've seen from any other magic-users currently. But I don't think that it's on the level of magnitude or granularity to do basically anything they want with Connection. And I don't think Connection is a catch-all that can just be used in any way imaginable, there are other fundamental qualities to investiture and Realmatic theory that they don't have any direct control over.

Very well said, I think along these lines as well

Additionally, the greatest feats we know of Bondsmiths doing, they theoretically had access to a Dawnshard during those times

Edited January 9, 2023 by StanLemon

[Frustration]

58 minutes ago, rabidhexley said:

I feel like a lot of what I see in these Bondsmith threads is conflating "Ability to manipulate Connection" (which is an incredibly OP and flexible power) with "Absolute control over Connection" almost on the level of a Shard.

I mean, Dalinar did tell Odium "What will you do when I have your power, but none of your restrictions?" and Odium's retort was "In time the power will bind you" not "You will never have my level of power"

Not to mention that there has yet to be a single Connection that Bondsmiths haven't been able to manipulate.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

36 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I mean, Dalinar did tell Odium "What will you do when I have your power, but none of your restrictions?" and Odium's retort was "In time the power will bind you" not "You will never have my level of power"

Not to mention that there has yet to be a single Connection that Bondsmiths haven't been able to manipulate.

To be fair when my 11 year old wants to spar with me I don't outright beat him to dust.  I'm twice his size and I don't have anything to prove to him.... then there are times when he overstep clearly in an inappropriate manner and he quickly learns he isn't quite as big and bad as he thought.  

Odium has no need to prove anything to Dalinar.  I wouldn't expect a shard to respond in all seriousness to a petulant child who is getting too big for his briches.  

I'm not saying Dalinar won't be the most powerful being in the universe... I'm just saying nightblood got full and couldn't do the job... what has Dalinar proven other than he is stubborn enough to do it.   A real "I am Iron Man" before the snap.  Was he strong enough to pull it off?  Sure.  Will he be strong enough to survive it long enough to flex around?  That's a different story. 

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

To be fair when my 11 year old wants to spar with me I don't outright beat him to dust.  I'm twice his size and I don't have anything to prove to him.... then there are times when he overstep clearly in an inappropriate manner and he quickly learns he isn't quite as big and bad as he thought.  

Odium has no need to prove anything to Dalinar.  I wouldn't expect a shard to respond in all seriousness to a petulant child who is getting too big for his briches.

Odium felt like bragging to Taravangian, a broken old man who couldn't do anything to him.

Odium felt pushed into a corner, between Kaladin refusing him and Dalinar speaking to Ishar. If Odium could assert himself here he would have done so.

5 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I'm not saying Dalinar won't be the most powerful being in the universe... I'm just saying nightblood got full and couldn't do the job... what has Dalinar proven other than he is stubborn enough to do it.   A real "I am Iron Man" before the snap.  Was he strong enough to pull it off?  Sure.  Will he be strong enough to survive it long enough to flex around?  That's a different story. 

I'm not sure I understand.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Odium felt like bragging to Taravangian, a broken old man who couldn't do anything to him.

Odium felt pushed into a corner, between Kaladin refusing him and Dalinar speaking to Ishar. If Odium could assert himself here he would have done so.

I'm not sure I understand.

Just comparing Dalinar to Iron Man and his demise once holding the power of the stones.  

I think it would be terribly overplayed to make Dalinar Sazed 2.0.  I don't see it playing out where he simply takes that power and gets to do as he wishes with it consequence free.  I think anyone who takes odiums power is going to die for it instead of hanging out like a G.  

[rabidhexley]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I mean, Dalinar did tell Odium "What will you do when I have your power, but none of your restrictions?" and Odium's retort was "In time the power will bind you" not "You will never have my level of power"

Not to mention that there has yet to be a single Connection that Bondsmiths haven't been able to manipulate.

The quote is actually "Then he proved to me that a Bondsmith unchained is capable of incredibly feats...You are a god. You hold vast powers, yet they bind you as much as they free you. Tell me, what do you think of a human bearing the weight of a god's powers, but without that god's restrictions?"

 

I see this more like grandstanding on how Bondsmiths wield the powers of Honor (bonds), and verbal sparring to determine the degree with which he's a threat to Odium. He bears the weight of a god's powers because he can do things like make agreements with Odium on behalf of Honor, or potentially other feats similar to the Oathpact, binding cognitive shadows to a near eternal oath, etc.

 

I don't doubt the potential for Bondsmiths is well beyond that of other magic-users, but I don't think that Bondsmith powers just let you hangout with Shards and Gods. It's more like you have the ability to create workings (like the Oathpact, which I don't think is a standard Bondsmith working) that can potentially be used even in contention with Gods. But there are still numerous limitations and caveats.

Edited January 9, 2023 by rabidhexley

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, rabidhexley said:

I don't doubt the potential for Bondsmiths is well beyond that of other magic-users, but I don't think that Bondsmith powers just let you hangout with Shards and Gods. It's more like you have the ability to create workings (like the Oathpact, which I don't think is a standard Bondsmith working) that can potentially be used even in contention with Gods. But there are still numerous limitations and caveats.

What limitations are you referring to?

[rabidhexley]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

What limitations are you referring to?

Bondsmiths are not omnipresent or omniscient, despite Stormfather spacetime Dalinar can't fully exploit Connection in all places or things. They have limited range. He can summon a perpendicularity, but that doesn't mean he has truly untethered access to nigh-infinite investiture  all at once like shard does (at least not easily). The greater workings like the Oathpact are a clearly a pretty big deal and aren't the kind of thing a Bondsmith can just snap their fingers and do, but if manipulating Connection to straight-up create life was on the table this hardly even seems like some great feat.

 

And while they can Connect with other surgebinders to access their abilities, that doesn't mean they can connect with literally anything and do everything. It's like saying he can just summon a perpendicularity, stand in the Everstorm and remove its "Connection to Rohsar", good to go, it's gone. Or form a Connection to someone and literally control their mind. Or change the form of their investiture. There are clearly things that would supercede the power of a Bondsmith, like the will of another Shard or opposing Investiture.

 

As far as what they can do with the abilities of the other orders, we're more getting into a discussion of what Surgebinding is general is capable, and not really what the Bondsmith powerset specifically enables. Though I'm personally doubtful that Bondsmiths are able to freely emulate the various resonances specific to the other orders.

Quote

He says that a lot of what Honor could do is up for grabs, making Shardmetals is probably included

I'm of the the mind this is referring mostly to things specific to Honor. Basically Honor's specialties like Oaths and Bonds. Potentially controlling things specific to Honor's domain, not anything within the power of a literal Shard.

 

There's also stuff that Connection just doesn't do. You're not going to unilaterally change the fundamental nature of an object or person through Connection alone. They can't Soulcast, for instance, where with some of these proposed abilities it sounds like they almost should be able to just Soulcast. Or touch an object and basically "soulstamp" it with a flex of will. Or else Connection metalminds would effect their users in many more ways than they actually do. And a concept like Identity wouldn't really mean much. Bondsmiths are fortunate to have the means to overcome many of these limitations through more convoluted means (like Connecting to other Surgebinders, or binding a Shard to an oath), but that isn't saying these limitations don't exist and that there aren't things are very much pushing the phrasing of "Bondsmiths can do this".

 

They're certainly busted by design. But I feel like many feats are definitely off the table without a novel's worth of caveats and workarounds, if possible at all.

Edited January 9, 2023 by rabidhexley

[cometaryorbit]

3 hours ago, rabidhexley said:

 And I don't think Connection is a catch-all that can just be used in any way imaginable, there are other fundamental qualities to investiture and Realmatic theory that they don't have any direct control over.

Yeah. Not everything is Connection. It's extremely important, but there are other properties even in the Spiritual. Bondsmiths don't, IMO, have any special power over Identity, or over Investiture (beyond pulling Light from the Spiritual). I don't think they can blank Identity like Aluminum Feruchemy or Leech Investiture like Chromium Allomancy. It's not a wild card that gives them *all* Spiritual effects.

And their control over Connection may be... one-way in a sense. They're Bond *Smiths*. They can create or rebuild or strengthen Connections, or transfer existing Connections (Ishar trying to steal Dalinar's), but can they break Connections?

I don't think a Bondsmith could break a Splinter into multiple Splinters, for example, though they probably could form smaller Splinters into a larger one.

I think a Bondsmith also has to have some way to establish a Connection. I don't think Ishar could just forcibly create a Nahel bond to the Nightwatcher unless he was actually *there* in the Valley and could touch the Nightwatcher, though he could steal Dalinar's bond to the Stormfather by touching Dalinar. I doubt Dalinar could just turn Stormlight into Whimsy's Investiture by changing its Connection unless he had some link to Whimsy to work with.

Edited January 9, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Frustration]

Just now, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah. Not everything is Connection. It's extremely important, but there are other properties even in the Spiritual. Bondsmiths don't, IMO, have any special power over Identity, or over Investiture (beyond pulling Light from the Spiritual). I don't think they can blank Identity like Aluminum Feruchemy or Leech Investiture like Chromium Allomancy. It's not a wild card that gives them *all* Spiritual effects.

Connecting you to the ground is basically the same thing as A-Chromium.

5 minutes ago, rabidhexley said:

And while they can Connect with other surgebinders to access their abilities, that doesn't mean they can connect with literally anything and do everything. It's like saying he can just summon a perpendicularity, stand in the Everstorm and remove its "Connection to Rohsar", good to go, it's gone.

Well, why not? I mean moving it through a perpendicularity is a stretch, but we know from RoW 188 that investiture can't leave Roshar because of Connection, so why would removing that be difficult?

8 minutes ago, rabidhexley said:

Or form a Connection to someone and literally control their mind.

Well it would require a hole in their soul first, but they could do it.

Spoiler

Dopetruffles

And finally, whether a duralumin compounder could break into a kandra?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... yes, possible, yeah.

WorldCon 76 (Aug. 18, 2018)

 

8 minutes ago, rabidhexley said:

Though I'm personally doubtful that Bondsmiths are able to freely emulate the various resonances specific to the other orders.

 

Spoiler

LerasiumMistborn

You said Bondsmiths can boost other Radiants' powers. That moment when Dalinar helped Shallan a create a map. Can he do it with all Radiants? And this “boost” is always different with each Order?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, and yes.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 19, 2018)

[cometaryorbit]

Re banishing the Everstorm, there's probably power limits (Investiture resists Investiture, etc). I don't think when Odium appeared to Dalinar, Dalinar could have just touched him and stolen the Shard.

Also, that might not work because it's touch based, and I don't think they can just *destroy* Connections. If Dalinar replaced the Everstorm's Connection to Roshar with something else he can touch... well all those things are still on Roshar.

(Also, Physical location probably isn't defined by Spiritual Connection anyway.)

Bondsmiths can do Surge synergy stuff with all Orders, sure. That doesn't mean they get the actual resonances of the other Orders. I don't think Dalinar will get photographic memory just because he makes maps with Shallan, or extra-strong squires from Kaladin. (Bondsmiths don't even get squires with actual powers, do they?)