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Is there anything Bondsmiths can't do?


Frustration

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So I was thinking about Bondsmiths, again.

And I realized that they are unbelievably overpowered, again.

Which got me thinking, is there any invested ability that other powers have that Bondsmiths couldn't replicate? And for this I am including the powers they get when combining with other radiant orders.

The answer: probably not.

I tied going through some metalborn powers to see if I could find something,

Allomantic Chromium? Looks promising, but Bondsmiths can connect you to the ground for basically the same effect.

Allomantic Bronze? Well alerter fabrials use helioders, which is the polestone associated with Bondsmiths, so they probably could.

Feruchemical bronze? A synergy with a lightweaver could probably do that.

Feruchemical Chromium, Allomantic Atium, and Electrum? That takes more thinking, but Synergy with Truthwatchers could probably do it.

Feruchemical Atium? Age is about Connection.

So what about AonDor?

Aon Edo? Creating magic barriers is cool, but that's pretty much exactly what the shield fabrial was so synergy with an Elsecaller should do it.

Aon Nae? Magnification would probably just be a manipulation of Illumination.

The only thing I can think of right now is feruchemical aluminum, as so far Bondsmiths haven't even been hinted at being able to manipulate Identity, but given how little we know about Identity, that could quickly change. The Nightwatcher might even have that ability already. 

 

So, yeah Bondsmiths OP, like we already knew.

Edited by Frustration
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2 hours ago, Frustration said:

So I was thinking about Bondsmiths, again.

And I realized that they are unbelievably overpowered, again.

Which got me thinking, is there any invested ability that other powers have that Bondsmiths couldn't replicate? And for this I am including the powers they get when combining with other radiant orders.

The answer: probably not.

I tied going through some metalborn powers to see if I could find something,

Allomantic Chromium? Looks promising, but Bondsmiths can connect you to the ground for basically the same effect.

Allomantic Bronze? Well alerter fabrials use helioders, which is the polestone associated with Bondsmiths, so they probably could.

Feruchemical bronze? A synergy with a lightweaver could probably do that.

Feruchemical Chromium, Allomantic Atium, and Electrum? That takes more thinking, but Synergy with Truthwatchers could probably do it.

Feruchemical Atium? Age is about Connection.

So what about AonDor?

Aon Edo? Creating magic barriers is cool, but that's pretty much exactly what the shield fabrial was so synergy with an Elsecaller should do it.

Aon Nae? Magnification would probably just be a manipulation of Illumination.

The only thing I can think of right now is feruchemical aluminum, as so far Bondsmiths haven't even been hinted at being able to manipulate Identity, but given how little we know about Identity, that could quickly change. The Nightwatcher might even have that ability already. 

 

So, yeah Bondsmiths OP, like we already knew.

Yep. There's a very good reason why Brandon limited it to only four Bondsmiths max; the three spren and the Honorblade. Imagine having a full on army of them...would be pretty nuts.

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One limit they have consistently been shown having is that they have no range. All uses of their Surges have required touching the target first, even Ishar had to touch to use his power. The only loophole we've seen is they can seemingly influence their power through their spren. Like Navani taking control of the Tower, and Kaladin while he was enveloped in the Stormfather's power

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There are a lot of theoretical posibilities but we haven`t saw most of them. Our main Bondsmith PoV (Dalinar) doesn`t know much about it so I can imagine that in a future book we will learn that when trying to do more complex things (like most what you suggested) there are some limitations.

I hope that in KOWT we will learn more about what bondsmiths really can do and what are the limitations with Dalinar wanting to learn, Ishar (maybe0 wanting to teach and Navani as bondsmith can test it as a scientist.

 

 

*I am sorry if this post is unclear. English is not my native language and I feel my translation was bad this time :(

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You counted 7/32(+1) metals and call it everything?

Time bubbles - I doubt he could make it - Stormfather "space" is not the same.
Emotional Allomancy - it's not connection based
Pulling/pushing metals to you.
F-Steel? A/F-Tin?
F-Zink - how would he speed up his mental speed? The only way I see him replicate it is with that Stormfather "space", but its far less effective.
F-Copper - kind of forging connections like he did with Tien and Kal, but that's different than remembereing. His language learning would be good replacement.
F-Iron - ground trick would gain you weight, but no trick to reduce it.

 

And you have arts like Awakening, can he replicate it? It's much more than connection, it's more tied to Identity.

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

Feruchemical bronze? A synergy with a lightweaver could probably do that.

How? How would he get Wakefulness from it? I can't see it.

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

Allomantic Bronze? Well alerter fabrials use helioders, which is the polestone associated with Bondsmiths, so they probably could.

For now Alter fabrials only detect people, not use of investiture. But he might be able to do it with some weird connection, however that's a stretch.

 

Tbf, Bondsmith can just steal all the powers with connection. So yeah, he's op. But he need to touch people to do it, and that's limiting factor.

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5 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Things bondsmith can't do?   

React fast enough to stop a fullborn slapping them across Roshar.

Stop a godking awakening the jewelry they wear with the command "destroy who wears you" and sending them into oblivion.  

This need not devolve into a vs debate. I think it's safe to say we've had enough of those lately. This can be a thread to explore the limits of a Bondsmith's power though.

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2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Pulling/pushing metals to you.

I'd argue that might be possible. When burning metals you see thin lines connecting you to sources of metals, similarly Bondsmiths sees Connection lines.
If those lines Mistborn/Mistings see are Connections formed through burning metal, then Bondsmith could replicate it (though they might have to touch the specific metal first, or using spiritual adhesion Connect a piece of metal in their hand with another).

Quote

Emotional Allomancy - it's not connection based

Actually it most likely is, both Rioting/Soothing and C-duralumin can be used to take over spiked entities. And since C-Duralumin grants only Connection, there must a component of Connection to emotional allomancy as well.


Generally I'd argue that anytime we see someone affect something at a distance, they often do that through a Connection their powers forged. I.e. Pushing/Pulling on metals is facilitated by a Connection to nearby metal that is formed when burning Steel/Iron, Rioting/Soothing is facilitated through Connection to Cognitive aspects of people nearby formed when burning.
Possibly manipulating that Connection could allow you to move the objects? Like change the Connection to 'we are closer'? But since Teleportation through Connection is not possible that alone won't do it most likely.

Connection can be used to track seemingly anyone anywhere (Messangers in TLM), so a skilled Bondsmith could do that. And possibly also track other things about the person, considering the weird relation Connection has to time.
Any relationship you have with someone (or someone has with you) would form a Connection, so that would again be something that could be manipulated, to possibly get Soothing like effect.
They could possibly take up a Shard despite not being a fitting Vessel. (though Shard would have to die first).
Connection can affect probability (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/395/#e13037), though most likely only in specific ways (i.e. you accidentaly pick up a same thing as someone else etc.)
They could make people more skilled then they are yet (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/324/#e9280), provided they will get that skill in future.
Since you can connect someone to spiritual aspect of dead people, possibly you could also connect to someone's past/future aspect (as a version of gold/malatium)? It would probably work differently from literally seeing those 'visions', but it seems probable?

Of course you can take a Connection of someone else and steal it (as Ishar tried) though limits of that are unknown. You could most likely steal Nahel Bonds and other magics that are strictly Bond based (like Aviar). Allomancer has a Connection to a Shard, though if that is sufficient is open question. Stealing Elantrian's connection to Elantris would not be enough to become Elantrian.

 

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1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Things bondsmith can't do?   

React fast enough to stop a fullborn slapping them across Roshar.

Stop a godking awakening the jewelry they wear with the command "destroy who wears you" and sending them into oblivion.  

Did you just read the title or did you get to the part where I clarified:

Quote

Which got me thinking, is there any invested ability that other powers have that Bondsmiths couldn't replicate? And for this I am including the powers they get when combining with other radiant orders.

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:
2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Time bubbles - I doubt he could make it - Stormfather "space" is not the same.

It really is, but even if you want to say that only the Stormfather's bondsmith could, they all have the ability, and they would find a one to fifteen compressions to be easy, so they are even better than Bendalloy or Cadmium.

Spoiler

Questioner

At the end of Rhythm of War, we see Shard-induced time dilation; you bring a lot of Investiture into a place, and it slows down time.

Brandon Sanderson

It can also speed it up.

Questioner

How much Investiture would it take to dilate an area so that one area moves forward about fifteen years into the future while everything else remains? Like, they have ten minutes, everyone else goes fifteen years?

Brandon Sanderson

There’s a couple variables here. Number one is the length of the area, and how fast that fifteen years passes. If we want us to jump forward fifteen years, in how much time? Fifteen years compared to one year? Fifteen years compared to one minute? Fifteen years compared to one second? These are all different things. And, of course, the more you’re compressing and the larger the area, the more Investiture you’re requiring.

Questioner

Could two unchained Bondsmiths in the course of a duel do it?

Brandon Sanderson

Fifteen years? Fifteen years is gonna be a stretch for what they can get a hold of, but it depends. Unchained Bondsmith, unchained to (for instance) a deity that there is no longer a Vessel controlling that power in the way that it needs to have the limits on it is going to be able to access more than one where there was some Vessel there saying “no.” So there’s one factor in it. A Bondsmith can access a lot of power, as evidenced by the migration. The migration from Ashyn to Roshar happened with a Bondsmith powering some Elsecalling. And that allowed for some pretty crazy things. Getting an entire population moved through a portal across that much space is a lot of work and a lot of energy.

So what you’re asking, I think that’s stretching. Depends, again, on how long. Fifteen to one, not so hard. Fifteen years in a second is really hard and probably beyond what they have capacity to do.

I see what you’re doing there. You saw me talk around it.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Emotional Allomancy - it's not connection based

How you feel about certain ideas, people etc is all Connection, they can just strengthen one, and remove others until you feel the way they want you to.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Pulling/pushing metals to you.

Synergy with Wundrunner, and it can even affect nonmetals

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

F-Steel?

That's basically the same as the speed bubbles

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

A/F-Tin?

In Synergy with Lightweavers the only sense you couldn't affect is smell.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

F-Zink - how would he speed up his mental speed? The only way I see him replicate it is with that Stormfather "space", but its far less effective.

Not really

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

F-Copper - kind of forging connections like he did with Tien and Kal, but that's different than remembereing.

You have Connection to those memories

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

F-Iron - ground trick would gain you weight, but no trick to reduce it.

Remove your Connection to the ground

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

And you have arts like Awakening, can he replicate it? It's much more than connection, it's more tied to Identity.

Identity is more about who can get the breath back out. You could probably make a lifeless with Connection though.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

How? How would he get Wakefulness from it? I can't see it.

I meant brass, I'm dumb.

Wakefulness, they should be able to do by adjusting their Connection so that they last slept recently, and healing away any damages.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

For now Alter fabrials only detect people, not use of investiture. But he might be able to do it with some weird connection, however that's a stretch

According to the Ars arcanum, they can do people, emotions, and phenomena.

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35 minutes ago, Frustration said:
Quote

F-Iron - ground trick would gain you weight, but no trick to reduce it.


Remove your Connection to the ground

That one would possibly not work, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/121/#e4765 . Based on that WoB it seems that gravity is not caused by the Connection to planet.

But then Lashings apparently work through Spiritual realm (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/463/#e14664), so maybe doing a very specific trickery of the Connection to the planet could work? But maybe not reducing only redirecting. Or Lashing 'creates' fake object with appropriate gravity in Spiritual realm.

Though it you can use Connection to change Age, maybe you could use it change weight as long as there was a time you had that weight? But that would have side-effects.

EDIT: Ah, I overlooked this part you OP

Quote

Which got me thinking, is there any invested ability that other powers have that Bondsmiths couldn't replicate? And for this I am including the powers they get when combining with other radiant orders.

So, effective F-Iron like effect is trivial when using Lashing.

Really though, Bondsmith with Honorblades of 4 other Orders would be terrifying.
 

Edited by therunner
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12 hours ago, Frustration said:

And I realized that they are unbelievably overpowered, again.

"Oh, I see, Brandon, each surge pair combines in interesting ways and synergies, like how Windrunners can manipulate the air a bit and fly and such. What can Bondsmiths do?"

"They can manipulate Connections which lets them do things like speak other languages."

"Oh cool-"

"And open perpendicularities, and steal spren bonds, and connect you to a planet to drain you of stormlight, and enhance other surges, and repair broken items, and make spren have physical forms in the real world and-"

"Wait, how does that come from the power to stick things together and to make things stiff?"

"It just does."

"Do the Stonewards and Windrunners also have godlike powers from shared surges?"

"Nope, as the Stormfather said, the Bondsmith surges work completely different for them. The Windrunners glow a bit during oaths though, so that's cool."

---

The Bondsmiths are like someone let a super saiyan join a boxing tournament.

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I don't really think it's fair to count synergy effects as the Bondsmith's own power, but even given that, I don't think they can replicate anything... there are some things that IMO are not within the scope of Radiant-style Surgebinding at all.

(Now, it's arguable that the "bound other Surges" principle could let a Bondsmith copy random powers, but we know nothing about that and it probably has significant limits if it even works that way at all -- it could just be a working-with-spren-to-make-ancient-fabrials type thing. Though the WoB about stealing Nightblood's powers suggests that there probably is some such effect.)

Many of the internal powers of Allomancy / Feruchemy are probably not able to be replicated, though Stormlight can substitute for some (holding stormlight has effects roughly similar to f-Gold and a-Pewter, though with less strength boost it seems, and removes the need to breathe like f-Cadmium). But things like Wakefulness, Warmth, some Senses, the extreme Strength from Feruchemical Pewter... I don't think so. Even if Bondsmiths have a way to hack access to other Surges ("bound other Surges") I don't think these internal effects are possible in Surgebinding.

I think @alder24s right that Awakening cant be replicated either. A Bondsmith could by WoB steal Nightblood's powers, but couldn't Awaken a sword or a zombie army for themselves. Some of the Heightening passive effects probably can't be replicated either, like perfect color recognition.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

How you feel about certain ideas, people etc is all Connection, they can just strengthen one, and remove others until you feel the way they want you to.

[...]

In Synergy with Lightweavers the only sense you couldn't affect is smell.

I'm not convinced emotions are really a Connection thing. Connection is Spiritual, emotional allomancy is Cognitive. Some emotions- those directly related to how you feel about another person - could be manipulated probably. But I don't think Bondsmithing can just stoke fear or increase tiredness or whatever like Rioting can. Same for memories, I think Bondsmiths are more limited in Cognitive stuff than you suggest.

--

Enhanced taste and touch strike me as beyond Lightweaving too, as neither is waveform based.

And I don't think Lightweaving can fully replicate improved sight and hearing either. the Lightweaver has to know what they're creating or have a link to someone who does. even in synergy with Dalinar the information for the map is still coming from the Stormfather. Lightweaving doesn't let you just see new things. You can't Lightweave someone Perfect Color Recognition or perfect pitch unless the Lightweaver already has it and knows what colors/pitches the subject of the illusion should be perceiving. (Assuming illusions can even do that, I'm not sure someone without Perfect Color Recognition or perfect pitch could be made to notice those things in an illusion anyway.)

While Bondsmiths unchained can see Connection, I think some unusual sensory abilities are also beyond their capabilities - like the 'passive' nature of enhanced life sense (Bondsmiths probably have to try to see Connections, it won't warn them of someone sneaking up) and I'm not sure Connection sight can fully replicate Seeking either. (The Bondsmith might be able to see an Allomancer's Connection to Preservation strengthen while burning metals, but I doubt that could distinguish between tin and pewter.)

--

Range is also probably a limit. I don't think a Bondsmith could shoot lightning like a stormform Regal. Dalinar's perpendicularity can Invest spheres he isn't actually touching but I think that's more an effect of the perpendicularity itself - I don't think he can pick and choose what to Invest at a distance the way a top level Awakener with Audible Command can.

--

It also seems that Bondsmiths generally don't get Shardblades.

--

Bondsmiths are surely the most powerful non-Shard/Dawnshard beings in the cosmere, but their powers aren't a strict superset of all other powers.

And for non Honorblade Bondsmiths, the oaths themselves are probably the greatest limit on their power. Rashek could go conquer the world with his power, Dalinar couldn't.

Edited by cometaryorbit
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3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

 A Bondsmith could by WoB steal Nightblood's powers, but couldn't Awaken a sword or a zombie army for themselves.

I don't know about that, Connection should allow them to create something almost like a lifeless, and Honor made the Honorblades, and Bondsmiths have inherited some of the things only he used to be able to do.

Spoiler

Jurble

One I think might border even further on RAFO - in RoW, Dalinar accepts Kaladin's Fourth Ideal. I'm wondering, is it possible for Dalinar to... power-level a Radiant up to the Fifth Ideal by just accepting all their Oaths without regards to, you know, underlying fitness? Danger and safety issues aside. The Stormfather's comments on Ishar's powers being beyond the scope of what Honor allowed makes me assume he can.

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, as you expected. But without Honor around, some of the things he could do are kind of up for grabs.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 28, 2020)

 

6 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

But I don't think Bondsmithing can just stoke fear or increase tiredness or whatever like Rioting can.

It doesn't need to be identical in practice, just able to replicate results. You could make anything you wanted the embodiment of all their fears.

7 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Enhanced taste and touch strike me as beyond Lightweaving too, as neither is waveform based.

Touch is just repulsion between electrons, but taste, yeah that one's true.

8 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

And I don't think Lightweaving can fully replicate improved sight and hearing either. the Lightweaver has to know what they're creating or have a link to someone who does. even in synergy with Dalinar the information for the map is still coming from the Stormfather. Lightweaving doesn't let you just see new things. You can't Lightweave someone Perfect Color Recognition or perfect pitch unless the Lightweaver already has it and knows what colors/pitches the subject of the illusion should be perceiving. (Assuming illusions can even do that, I'm not sure someone without Perfect Color Recognition or perfect pitch could be made to notice those things in an illusion anyway.)

Illusions are far superior to their art or memory(WoR 554). Shallan mentions it gets pores and tiny hairs correctly, they only need a Connection to something the magic will do the rest, as long as they could hear it, regardless of quality they should be able to get it perfect.

12 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

While Bondsmiths unchained can see Connection, I think some unusual sensory abilities are also beyond their capabilities - like the 'passive' nature of enhanced life sense (Bondsmiths probably have to try to see Connections, it won't warn them of someone sneaking up) and I'm not sure Connection sight can fully replicate Seeking either. (The Bondsmith might be able to see an Allomancer's Connection to Preservation strengthen while burning metals, but I doubt that could distinguish between tin and pewter.)

Alerter fabrials can do all of that, and the polestone they use is a Heliodor, which happens to be the gem accociated with the Bondsmiths.

14 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

a-Pewter, though with less strength boost it seems extreme Strength from Feruchemical Pewter... I don't think so.

Dalinar lifted a stone weighing 2,000 pounds in Theylanah, (described OB 641).

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3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't know about that, Connection should allow them to create something almost like a lifeless

I don't see how. Can you explain?

Breath sticks to things and is inherently 'life-giving', and it responds to Command. Stormlight (and probably Towerlight and Lifelight as well?) tends to evaporate (even Voidlight does, just slower... it's still not permanent like Breath).

I don't think there's any way to animate a corpse by pushing Stormlight into it. I also don't think you can tell Stormlight to animate something - it's not Command responsive like Breath, unless you add some other magic like a Dawnshard, IMO.

I suppose one could argue that Lifelight might have similar life giving properties to Breath, so maybe the Nightwatcher's Bondsmith could get temporary Awakening like effects... but that's going well beyond the data, and anyway one of the things that makes Awakening useful/powerful is the near permanence of what it can create - Breath doesn't go away on its own like Light.

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

 and Honor made the Honorblades, and Bondsmiths have inherited some of the things only he used to be able to do.

Powerful as Bondsmiths are, they aren't actually Shards. Honor made the Honorblades by voluntary self-Splintering, essentially, like Endowment making Divine Breath. That's a Shard ability - making Splinters of themselves - which Dalinar shouldn't get even if he has the "authority over Oaths and Radiants" that Honor used to have.

Now the Stormfather can create honorspren, who are Splinters, so maybe Dalinar could ask the Stormfather to make Splinters. That's not really *Dalinar's* power though, it's the Stormfather's.

Also, it sounds like Honor gave or taught that ability to the Stormfather when preparing for his death. So I don't know if we can assume that the Stormfather could make Honorblades, or any other Splinter type except honorspren, or that the Nightwatcher or Sibling could make spren at all. (Normal sapient spren have a way to reproduce from Investiture or something, but if that's limited to their own kind, it probably doesn't apply to the unique ones?)

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Touch is just repulsion between electrons, but taste, yeah that one's true.

I don't think Illumination covers everything covered by the RL electromagnetic force. In RL physics pressure and friction and things being solid are all fundamentally derived from electromagnetic interactions... but Adhesion and Abrasion and Cohesion and Tension are separate Surges. I don't think Illumination can get at electrons inside atoms/molecules, it's traveling waves like photons or sound.

17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Illusions are far superior to their art or memory(WoR 554). Shallan mentions it gets pores and tiny hairs correctly, they only need a Connection to something the magic will do the rest, as long as they could hear it, regardless of quality they should be able to get it perfect.

Alerter fabrials can do all of that, and the polestone they use is a Heliodor, which happens to be the gem accociated with the Bondsmiths.

Dalinar lifted a stone weighing 2,000 pounds in Theylanah, (described OB 641).

Illusions can replicate a real thing more perfectly than the Lightweaver's knowledge of it, through Connection, sure (though that's a bit odd bc Lightweavers have photographic memories so shouldn't they be able to get the pores and tiny hairs right anyway? Maybe it just means that the photographic memory is itself Connection based).

But they still need to know what they're replicating. A Lightweaver, even with Bondsmith help, can't just make an illusion of "whatever is in that dark cave over there" and thus gain night vision. Illusions don't *detect new things unknown to the Radiant or their spren*. 

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Alerter fabrials can do all of that, and the polestone they use is a Heliodor, which happens to be the gem accociated with the Bondsmiths.

Dalinar lifted a stone weighing 2,000 pounds in Theylanah, (described OB 641).

Fabrial science is a different magic system than Surgebinding. I don't think Radiants get alerter effects or painrial effects or whatever.

Lifting the stone was part of an Adhesion plus probably Tension rebuilding, it's not just a blanket strength increase. Dalinar couldn't put 2000 pounds of force into punching someone, Sazed in full koloss bulk mode at the end of WoA could.

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2 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't see how. Can you explain?

Just like breaking into a hemalurgic Construct they should be able to control the corpse like an extension of their own body.

2 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Powerful as Bondsmiths are, they aren't actually Shards. Honor made the Honorblades by voluntary self-Splintering, essentially, like Endowment making Divine Breath. That's a Shard ability - making Splinters of themselves - which Dalinar shouldn't get even if he has the "authority over Oaths and Radiants" that Honor used to have.

He says that a lot of what Honor could do is up for grabs, making Shardmetals is probably included.

3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think Illumination covers everything covered by the RL electromagnetic force. In RL physics pressure and friction and things being solid are all fundamentally derived from electromagnetic interactions... but Adhesion and Abrasion and Cohesion and Tension are separate Surges. I don't think Illumination can get at electrons inside atoms/molecules, it's traveling waves like photons or sound.

Not electromagnetism, just waveforms.

Which admittedly is just about everything, but with Bondsmiths raw investiture and ability to manipulate them, causing minute differences in chemical structure to pop out isn't too unreasonable, though I will admit that it is probably on the border of what's plausible.

6 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Fabrial science is a different magic system than Surgebinding.

But they have many similarities, such as the ability to manipulate the essences, gravity, etc.

7 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think Radiants get alerter effects or painrial effects or whatever.

I fully expect Stonewards to be able to ignore pain.

7 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Lifting the stone was part of an Adhesion plus probably Tension rebuilding, it's not just a blanket strength increase. Dalinar couldn't put 2000 pounds of force into punching someone, Sazed in full koloss bulk mode at the end of WoA could.

Why would it be Adhesion? Tension actually makes sense, but Adhesion?

And why would it not be a strength increase?

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45 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Just like breaking into a hemalurgic Construct they should be able to control the corpse like an extension of their own body.

Ok, I completely disagree there.

Breaking into a Hemalurgic construct is more controlling it like it was part of you... thats a Connection thing.

But controlling Hemalurgic constructs doesn't give them abilities they don't already have. Koloss are already super strong before TLR or Vin takes control of them.

A corpse doesn't have the ability to move or act. If you break into a corpse... it still just lies there inactive. Awakening puts new Investiture and a Command into a corpse so it's not a corpse anymore.

I think a Bondsmith could absolutely take control of a Lifeless that already exists, but not turn an inanimate corpse into a Lifeless. (Not sure if they could hijack a non-Lifeless non-Nightblood regular Awakened object. Unlike Lifeless, the Awakener can take their breath back, so this might involve Identity not just Connection. )

50 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He says that a lot of what Honor could do is up for grabs, making Shardmetals is probably included

The WoB is vague enough that thus probably isn't provable without more books.  But I disagree. I think this is more "authority as Honor's successor" stuff*, control of Oaths and such, and maybe the ability to manipulate / reestablish the limits Honor put on Surgebinding.

Making Splinters is more of a Shardic ability, and I don't think a Bondsmith (at least on Roshar and working with Rosharan magic) can get Investiture in the right form to do it. Light is inherently temporary. Maybe if Dalinar or Navani got 2000 Breaths they could use Connection to forge a Divine Breath equivalent Splinter out of them, but I don't think they could do that stuff with their native Investiture only. I think you'd have to introduce another magic system like Breath/Awakening or Feruchemy with permanent-storable Investiture. At least short of hypothetical space era Investiture-conversion technology.

*and I think it is Stormfather Bondsmith only, Navani and Ishar won't get that. (Though they will get the general "unchained Bondsmith" tricks like seeing Connection and, at least for Ishar, opening a perpendicularity - it's called Honor's Perpendicularity so I'm not sure if Navani as the Sibling Bondsmith could do it or not, Ishar uses an Honorblade which is pure-Honor).

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I fully expect Stonewards to be able to ignore pain.

Why would it be Adhesion? Tension actually makes sense, but Adhesion?

And why would it not be a strength increase?

I was more thinking of inducing pain without physical harm. Stonewards might be able to ignore pain in themselves (idk, I think Taln felt his torture but Heralds on Braize might not have access to their Surges) but probably not affect the sensation of pain in others.

Adhesion to bind pieces together + Tension to add stiffness making the binding permanent once the Stormlight was gone. It's a weird scene and really feels more like Adhesion + Cohesion, I think those two Surges (Cohesion/Tension) weren't fully developed when OB was written.

I think Dalinar is more... pulling the stones together with his Surges and so he can lift them easier to go where they need to go. I don't think it's a pure multiplication of physical strength that he can use for just any purpose, if he'd turned around and punched someone during the process I don't think his punch force would have been boosted (though his body might have been hardened by Tension reducing the risk of harming himself).

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4 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Ok, I completely disagree there.

Breaking into a Hemalurgic construct is more controlling it like it was part of you... thats a Connection thing.

But controlling Hemalurgic constructs doesn't give them abilities they don't already have. Koloss are already super strong before TLR or Vin takes control of them.

A corpse doesn't have the ability to move or act. If you break into a corpse... it still just lies there inactive. Awakening puts new Investiture and a Command into a corpse so it's not a corpse anymore.

Breath is what's moving the body, as long as the body isn't damaged, say they died of suffication, then the Bondsmith should be able to get them to react to their brain instead of the dead one.

6 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I was more thinking of inducing pain without physical harm. Stonewards might be able to ignore pain in themselves (idk, I think Taln felt his torture but Heralds on Braize might not have access to their Surges) but probably not affect the sensation of pain in others.

I was more refering to the painspren in their plate, and whether they could use that to inflict pain, I'd say probably, Kaladin can make win with his plate afterall.

8 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Adhesion to bind pieces together + Tension to add stiffness making the binding permanent once the Stormlight was gone. It's a weird scene and really feels more like Adhesion + Cohesion, I think those two Surges (Cohesion/Tension) weren't fully developed when OB was written.

I think Dalinar is more... pulling the stones together with his Surges and so he can lift them easier to go where they need to go. I don't think it's a pure multiplication of physical strength that he can use for just any purpose, if he'd turned around and punched someone during the process I don't think his punch force would have been boosted (though his body might have been hardened by Tension reducing the risk of harming himself).

That doesn't make any sense, the stones didn't move themselves, he had to push them into place.

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28 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Breath is what's moving the body, as long as the body isn't damaged, say they died of suffication, then the Bondsmith should be able to get them to react to their brain instead of the dead one.

I disagree... there's nothing in the body to make it able to move. Connection alone doesn't provide that. There's nothing to make the nerves, muscles, etc react to signals being hacked-in from the Bondsmith's brain.

Maybe with really advanced Bondsmithing you could hack something with the Stormlight flowing from the Bondsmith to the corpse and kind-of replacing Breath... but it would be very temporary, since Stormlight doesn't stay around.

The impressive/useful thing about Lifeless is that they last and can just wait for orders with very little maintenance- just occasionally topping up the ichor-alcohol, they don't need food or sleep or anything. With Stormlight rather than Breath you'd lose that advantage.

I guess I'd say one of the key weaknesses of Surgebinding relative to some other magic systems like Awakening or Hemalurgy is that 'active' effects are inherently temporary. If you heal someone with Regrowth they stay healed once the Stormlight runs out, or if you transform something with Soulcasting it stays transformed... but it's just a mundane object afterwards. You can't Invest things in a lasting way like Awakening an object or Hemalurgy-ing extra strength into a human to make a koloss.

The other general limitations, I'd say, are senses (and likely a lesser degree of internal powers in general, though the base benefits of holding Stormlight are very good) and range. There are a few ranged Surgebinding powers, but it seems rare

Surgebinding is still probably the most powerful magic system (unless you're in Arelon, at least) but it has definite limits.

42 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That doesn't make any sense, the stones didn't move themselves, he had to push them into place.

It's a confusing scene, but I do think he was doing something specific to reassembling the temple - he still pushed them, but he was using some form of Adhesion to help, I think.

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2 hours ago, Frustration said:

He says that a lot of what Honor could do is up for grabs, making Shardmetals is probably included.

Is this to suggest that a bondsmith could create Lerasium and thus create an army of radiants with access to full strength lerasium mistborn powers?  Make atium and supply the Rosharan army with what is perhaps the single most OP dueling power in the cosmere?   

Is it even possible to create a shardmetal or would they be stealing it and making shards weaker?  Given than shardmetals are basically a portion of the shards themselves (the whole plot to HoA).  

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1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Is this to suggest that a bondsmith could create Lerasium and thus create an army of radiants with access to full strength lerasium mistborn powers?  Make atium and supply the Rosharan army with what is perhaps the single most OP dueling power in the cosmere?   

Is it even possible to create a shardmetal or would they be stealing it and making shards weaker?  Given than shardmetals are basically a portion of the shards themselves (the whole plot to HoA).  

Not unless they somehow got ahold of a lot of Preservation's investiture, it would probably be just Tanavastium, maybe some Koravelium, but not much else.

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35 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not unless they somehow got ahold of a lot of Preservation's investiture, it would probably be just Tanavastium, maybe some Koravelium, but not much else.

This is actually a point I am not sure I understand correctly.  

Tanavastium is the metal for Tanavast who holds honor.  But honor is dead?  Is Tanavast dead? 

I struggled with the in the mistborn series as well.  Ati held Ruin.  But atium was literally Ati's body?   Likewise Leras giving out all that Lerasium created a way for that power to continue and stick around forever?  Where does the dilution end for this?   Is the sum total of allomantic power on Scadrial equal to the initial beads of lerasium given out?   

What is the difference between a shardholder and the shard itself.   Is the godmetal the shard holder or is it the shard?   

Even after burning away so much atium there is still enough of ruin to create harmony.   Is Harmony devoid of power in comparison to what Ati and Leras were separately or is he actually holding the power of 2 shards?  

Even with a shard being dead their investiture and power are clearly able to stick around... but when we say honor is dead is it the shard or the shardbearer?  

If a Bondsmith were to create Tanavastium what happens to Tanavast and to the net total of Honors power?   

Is investiture finite?  Would this be creating investiture or stealing it from where it was?  

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5 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This is actually a point I am not sure I understand correctly.  

Tanavastium is the metal for Tanavast who holds honor.  But honor is dead?  Is Tanavast dead? 

I struggled with the in the mistborn series as well.  Ati held Ruin.  But atium was literally Ati's body?   Likewise Leras giving out all that Lerasium created a way for that power to continue and stick around forever?  Where does the dilution end for this?   Is the sum total of allomantic power on Scadrial equal to the initial beads of lerasium given out?   

What is the difference between a shardholder and the shard itself.   Is the godmetal the shard holder or is it the shard?   

Even after burning away so much atium there is still enough of ruin to create harmony.   Is Harmony devoid of power in comparison to what Ati and Leras were separately or is he actually holding the power of 2 shards?  

Even with a shard being dead their investiture and power are clearly able to stick around... but when we say honor is dead is it the shard or the shardbearer?  

If a Bondsmith were to create Tanavastium what happens to Tanavast and to the net total of Honors power?   

Is investiture finite?  Would this be creating investiture or stealing it from where it was?  

Alright, I guess I can go through Shards 101.

First let's define some terms

The Shard - The actual power, and a sixteenth of the power of Adonalsium

The Vessel - The mind who controls the Shard

The body of a shard - a Philosophical way to describe a shards power

 

So there was Adonalsium, we don't know where he came from, that's a whole can of worms for later. And he controlled all the investiture in the cosmere, which is a small star cluster. The amount of investiture was finite, but there is so outrageously much of it that it might as well be infinite. A bunch of people got together and killed Adonalsium taking his power for themselves. They got 1/16th of the whole power, anything used becomes matter or energy, or is expended, the shard never loses investiture, but it can become inaccessible for them. When a shard is splintered it can still exist, but can no longer be held by a vessel.

Does that make sense?

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20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Alright, I guess I can go through Shards 101.

First let's define some terms

The Shard - The actual power, and a sixteenth of the power of Adonalsium

The Vessel - The mind who controls the Shard

The body of a shard - a Philosophical way to describe a shards power

 

So there was Adonalsium, we don't know where he came from, that's a whole can of worms for later. And he controlled all the investiture in the cosmere, which is a small star cluster. The amount of investiture was finite, but there is so outrageously much of it that it might as well be infinite. A bunch of people got together and killed Adonalsium taking his power for themselves. They got 1/16th of the whole power, anything used becomes matter or energy, or is expended, the shard never loses investiture, but it can become inaccessible for them. When a shard is splintered it can still exist, but can no longer be held by a vessel.

Does that make sense?

So Honor being dead is more of a splintering and his power is the metal names after the person who did hold him but can't anymore because he is dead / splintered?    So honor exists everywhere but nowhere at once and the metal for it is finite but not really because it is just recycled back and around?  

In Harmonys case does he hold the same amount of power as Ati and Leras when they were on their own but combined?   Or is he holding the remainder of 2 crippled and nearly totally splintered shards?  

This suggests that godmetals may temporarily be moved through but that power is always there?  Waiting to collect and be used again?  

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1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

So Honor being dead is more of a splintering and his power is the metal names after the person who did hold him but can't anymore because he is dead / splintered?    So honor exists everywhere but nowhere at once and the metal for it is finite but not really because it is just recycled back and around?

Pretty much

1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

In Harmonys case does he hold the same amount of power as Ati and Leras when they were on their own but combined?   Or is he holding the remainder of 2 crippled and nearly totally splintered shards? 

The power of both of them combined

2 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This suggests that godmetals may temporarily be moved through but that power is always there?  Waiting to collect and be used again?  

Do you mean burned through? Because yes

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