Hoid's Audience in Tress

[NewbSombrero]

So in the SP1 post, Brandon said we "might be able to puck up some context of who [Hoid's] talking to" based on some of the comments he peppers in. I'm not sure if that's just like homeworld or if we're talking about a specific character, but the thought did hit me wondering whether Hoid is telling this story on First of the Sun (maybe to our buddy Sixth). Idk does this seem likely to anyone else?

[+Oltux72]

Just now, NewbSombrero said:

So in the SP1 post, Brandon said we "might be able to puck up some context of who [Hoid's] talking to" based on some of the comments he peppers in. I'm not sure if that's just like homeworld or if we're talking about a specific character, but the thought did hit me wondering whether Hoid is telling this story on First of the Sun (maybe to our buddy Sixth). Idk does this seem likely to anyone else?

Given the time the, if we know the audience, it will have to be either First of the Sun or immortals.

Given how Hoid talks about religion it seems to me that he is speaking to a group.

[WhatFace]

In Chapter 15, Hoid says that the Sorceress/Riina took away five sense, including “my sense of self. The last one stung the most, since it appears my sense of self is tied directly to my wit. I mean, it’s in the name.”

That suggests (to me at least) that Hoid is telling this story to, if not Rosharans themselves, people allied with the Radiants or something.

Also, in Chapter 43, Hoid says, “I know that sailors fear storms on your planet.” Now, that description does apply to most planets that have boats, but it feels apt for Roshar.

[The Bookwyrm]

I am fairly certain that his audience is on First of the Sun. Most of the nautical and sailing references make sense.

What really made me think that this is a First of the Sun audience is something Hoid said near the end...he mentioned spacecraft with advanced technology landing on the audience's homeworld. Which we know is happening on First.

EDIT: Found the exact quote...

Quote

“As you wish,” a monotone voice said. It was the spirit that 
inhabited this place, you see, obeying the will of its owner. Yes, like 
the speaking minds inhabiting the ships you’ve seen landing on your 
planet.

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by The Bookwyrm

[Inkspren_K]

I think the audience is from first of the sun too. In addition to the quotes mentioned above, there's a reference to Aviars in chapter 24, which likely means the audience is at least familiar with Aviars

Quote

Perhaps you would prefer a story about someone facing a dragon. Well, this isn’t that kind of story. (Which makes it even more remarkable that Tress still does that eventually. But kindly stop getting ahead of me.) I can understand why you would want tales of people like Linji, who tried to sail around the world with no Aviar.

 

[estus]

The Aviar comment & references dangers coming from  below the water than above implies it's a resident of First of the Sun

[Little_Dagger]

My theory is that Hoid is telling the story to Rysn. First, the audience should be from Roshar, since no one else would understand the title of King's Wit. Second, Ryan owns a ship and would relate to nautical references. Third, she holds a dawnshard, so it is reasonable to suggest that Hoid would decide to talk to her at some point.

As for the Aviars, we have seen two on Roshar already, and since the story probably happens in the second half of Stormlight series, spaceships make sense as well.

 

[Kaladong Stormguy]

9 hours ago, Inkspren_K said:

I think the audience is from first of the sun too. In addition to the quotes mentioned above, there's a reference to Aviars in chapter 24, which likely means the audience is at least familiar with Aviars

 

Thanks for finding this quote. I knew he made some mention of Aviars at one point, but I forgot where. This and the whole "ships you’ve seen landing on your 
planet" thing makes me fairly certain that it's someone on First of the Sun.
 

Although I like the idea @Yuliya had since it explains not only how it might be someone on Roshar, but also why Hoid is telling this story. Of course, Hoid just likes to talk, but almost every time we've seen him tell a story, it's been to serve a purpose. Him telling a story to Rysn that's all about curses and how one can get around them makes a lot of sense given the consequences that come with holding a Dawnshard.

The only thing that gives me pause about these two candidates is that I can't see either being familiar with things like laptops or fluorescent lighting in office buildings enough for Hoid to namedrop them. That makes it sound like his audience is someone whose planet is in the information age, but still pre-interstellar travel. The only place/time that I can think of that fits those parameters is Era 3 Scadrial. Plus he also has some Push/Pull references in the story. Not to mention Tress's weird knowledge of Marsh as Death.

[RedBlue]

7 minutes ago, Kaladong Stormguy said:

The only thing that gives me pause about these two candidates is that I can't see either being familiar with things like laptops or fluorescent lighting in office buildings enough for Hoid to namedrop them. That makes it sound like his audience is someone whose planet is in the information age, but still pre-interstellar travel. The only place/time that I can think of that fits those parameters is Era 3 Scadrial. Plus he also has some Push/Pull references in the story. Not to mention Tress's weird knowledge of Marsh as Death.

I’m pretty convinced that the people he’s talking to are Era 4 Scadrians. As Stormguy mentioned, they’re familiar with advanced tech like laptops, and Hoid references some religious beliefs that seem specific to Scadrial, eg Ironeyes.

(He also references the idea of people being created by Shards, which is not generally true or believed outside of Scadrial)

The biggest hint, IMO, is that he refers to himself as a Worldbringer. (Chapter 24)

Quote

Worldbringers like myself spend decades combing through folk tales, legends, myths, histories, and drunken bar songs looking for the most unique stories.

Hoid is not literally a Worldbringer in the historical sense, so he’s speaking metaphorically.

The references to Scadrian religion, and describing himself using a Scadrian term, looks like strong evidence that he is ‘localising’ the story for a Scadrian audience.

It also makes sense that he would be speaking to space age Scadrians, given that Brandon has said Hoid will have a major role in Mistborn Era 4.

[Kaladong Stormguy]

39 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

I’m pretty convinced that the people he’s talking to are Era 4 Scadrians. As Stormguy mentioned, they’re familiar with advanced tech like laptops, and Hoid references some religious beliefs that seem specific to Scadrial, eg Ironeyes.

My only issue with this is that his reference to things like spaceships makes it sound like they're alien tech. The onboard AI was referred to as "the speaking minds inhabiting the ships you’ve seen landing on your planet." I feel like by Era 4 the Scadrians would have to have a better understanding of things like advanced AI and interplanetary travel. Maybe Nalthians are able to land on Scadrial in Era 3 and those are the ships he's referring to. 
Your bit about him calling himself a Worldbringer is definitely good evidence that he's on Scadrial; I'm just not convinced as to when he's telling this story.

[RedBlue]

15 minutes ago, Kaladong Stormguy said:

I'm just not convinced as to when he's telling this story

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that there will be increased cosmere awareness and connectivity during Era 3, but no interstellar travel through the Physical Realm. It’s 1980s ish tech levels.

Riina (the Sorceress) has a functioning interstellar spaceship in the story, some time before Hoid tells it, and she’s not even a major player in the grand scheme of things.

I think the ‘speaking minds’ comment was not because the audience is unfamiliar with spaceships or AI in general. They’re just unfamiliar with the way these specific types of spaceship and AI work. Probably because Scadrians are used to tech being fully mechanical, while other cultures use ‘spirits’ (eg spren or seons) and that feels alien. 

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, Yuliya said:

My theory is that Hoid is telling the story to Rysn.

Her minimum age at that point would be around 400 going by the Iriali reference. Now, she could be a worldhopper, but then he would not need to explain concepts like a laptop.

3 hours ago, Yuliya said:

First, the audience should be from Roshar, since no one else would understand the title of King's Wit.

Are you British? If not, do you know who is the king of England?

3 hours ago, Yuliya said:

Second, Ryan owns a ship and would relate to nautical references. Third, she holds a dawnshard, so it is reasonable to suggest that Hoid would decide to talk to her at some point.

As for the Aviars, we have seen two on Roshar already, and since the story probably happens in the second half of Stormlight series, spaceships make sense as well.

These points apply on every developed world with oceans at the time in question.

 

1 hour ago, Kaladong Stormguy said:

The only thing that gives me pause about these two candidates is that I can't see either being familiar with things like laptops or fluorescent lighting in office buildings enough for Hoid to namedrop them. That makes it sound like his audience is someone whose planet is in the information age, but still pre-interstellar travel. The only place/time that I can think of that fits those parameters is Era 3 Scadrial. Plus he also has some Push/Pull references in the story.

Unlikely bordering on impossible for timing reasons. It would mean that the Iriali reference is really misleading.

The Iriali left around 300 to 350 years (converting into standard years) ago. They must have spent at least a few decades before that on Lumar. And it would mean that Sazed has to release the Kandra immediately at Era 2 time.
Interstellar travel has to be common at that time.

1 hour ago, Kaladong Stormguy said:

Not to mention Tress's weird knowledge of Marsh as Death.

Again, timing. Tress knows that. That means the legend has to spread.

 

[Kaladong Stormguy]

28 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Her minimum age at that point would be around 400 going by the Iriali reference.

Could very likely happen considering she's held/holding a Dawnshard, haha.

 

29 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Are you British? If not, do you know who is the king of England?

I dunno, this doesn't feel equivalent to me. I agree that knowing Hoid as Wit might not be exclusive to Roshar, but I also don't think that his title as the King's Wit is as widely known in the Cosmere as the King of England is on Earth. So I think his reference to being Wit is at least slightly noteworthy. It could mean that either the audience is someone from Roshar (and specifically Alethkar since I never got the impression the role was widely known, even Kaladin needed it explained to him at first iirc) or that they're particularly knowledgable about other cultures in the Cosmere.

 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Unlikely bordering on impossible for timing reasons. It would mean that the Iriali reference is really misleading.

The Iriali left around 300 to 350 years (converting into standard years) ago. They must have spent at least a few decades before that on Lumar. And it would mean that Sazed has to release the Kandra immediately at Era 2 time.
Interstellar travel has to be common at that time.

Hmm, that's a good point. I hadn't taken the Iriali into account. Although my first impression about the Sazed releasing the Kandra thing was what he did during the Catacendre, where he let them go from the contracts and let them kinda do their own thing. I could definitely be wrong though, it's been forever since I read Era 1.

 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Again, timing. Tress knows that. That means the legend has to spread.

Yeah, this makes it seem like Era 2 must have happened a good bit before. I didn't really think about how long it would take for Death's legend to spread. Good point.

[Little_Dagger]

@Oltux72 I realize that Rysn would have to be several hundred years old by the time of the story, but considering that she is holding a Dawnshard, it doesn't seem impossible at all. The two people we know to hold one (Hoid and Sigzil) both do not age normally, so perhaps neither does she.

I am not British. Can you explain why Charles III and the title of King's Wit are connected?

[+Oltux72]

25 minutes ago, Kaladong Stormguy said:

Could very likely happen considering she's held/holding a Dawnshard, haha.

23 minutes ago, Yuliya said:

@Oltux72 I realize that Rysn would have to be several hundred years old by the time of the story, but considering that she is holding a Dawnshard, it doesn't seem impossible at all. The two people we know to hold one (Hoid and Sigzil) both do not age normally, so perhaps neither does she.

Both true, but by that time Hoid wouldn't need to explain to her what a computer is.

25 minutes ago, Kaladong Stormguy said:

I dunno, this doesn't feel equivalent to me. I agree that knowing Hoid as Wit might not be exclusive to Roshar, but I also don't think that his title as the King's Wit is as widely known in the Cosmere as the King of England is on Earth. So I think his reference to being Wit is at least slightly noteworthy. It could mean that either the audience is someone from Roshar (and specifically Alethkar since I never got the impression the role was widely known, even Kaladin needed it explained to him at first iirc) or that they're particularly knowledgable about other cultures in the Cosmere.

23 minutes ago, Yuliya said:

I am not British. Can you explain why Charles III and the title of King's Wit are connected?

Roshar is one of the (two) big powers of the Cosmere in the late stages. People in those cases know more about those foreign governments than you might assume. Just as you both knew who the British monarch or the leaders of China and Russia are. I also assume that you know how the heir to their throne is titled, who the British prime minister is and where he resides.
We cannot rule out that the King's Wit has become a title like Prime Minister and that normal people in other countries know their titles. For all we know Hoid goes under the name "Hoid" only on primitive worlds.

 

And there is a sad aspect we have to face when talking about dates. Where is Design?

 

[Kaladong Stormguy]

24 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

We cannot rule out that the King's Wit has become a title like Prime Minister and that normal people in other countries know their titles.

I just don't think that the King's Wit is near as central a role as the PM. Kaladin didn't even know what the role was when he first met Hoid. 
 

Quote

"I am the King’s Wit. Or I was until recently. I think I shall probably lose the title soon.”
“The king’s what?”
“Wit. It was my job to be witty.”

So unless knowledge of the role suddenly became far more widespread, I don't think we can say that people on other planets or even other nations know of that title. Wit does continue to use that as his name on Roshar, but he doesn't really act in that role after WoK. As I see it, the reference that he makes to his wit being a part of his sense of self seems to be just a joke for himself. 
Of course, I could be wrong and his exploits on Roshar while going by Wit could have made the term widely known. But I just feel that it's gonna be fairly localized and known only by scholars of the Cosmere and Alethi.

 

34 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

And there is a sad aspect we have to face when talking about dates. Where is Design?

This is very true. I was expecting Design to show up once Hoid's curse was broken, but we didn't even get a mention. I don't really know the mechanics of Riina's curse, but could it have affected Hoid's Spirit Web? And if so, could that have weakened, or worse, broken the bond? I think there are plenty of reasons to doubt that (but I think we can't talk about them as they're spoilers for other Secret Projects), but the fact that Design got no mentions at all is a little concerning.

[RedBlue]

Hoid makes references to two other names he has used, Wit and Cephandrius.

Quote

“No,” he said. “Nor will I do anything to help your quest. There is precisely one being I fear on this planet—and no, your friend Cephandrius doesn’t count.”
Rude.

(Chapter 52)

Given that the audience is familiar with three names for Hoid, I think we should assume that the audience knows the names because they know about Hoid in general, and not because they’ve picked up stories about him from a specific planet. Otherwise, we could argue that they must be from Yolen just as much as Roshar, and that doesn’t make sense. 

[+Harrycrapper]

I think focusing on things Hoid refers to relating to himself or specific cosmere concepts he mentions are misdirects. Hoid is very much known for saying things that we the readers understand because we've read the various Cosmere stories but the person he's talking to does not. The fact that he mentions various things like Worldbringer or Aviar doesn't necessarily mean he will or intends to be understood. Given that, I think focusing on facts that he reveals about the person(s) hearing the story are the best way to go. And the comment about being invaded by interstellar ships makes me lean heavily towards this being someone(s) from First of the Sun. 

[RedBlue]

22 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

I think focusing on facts that he reveals about the person(s) hearing the story are the best way to go. And the comment about being invaded by interstellar ships makes me lean heavily towards this being someone(s) from First of the Sun. 

Hoid reveals nothing directly about the audience except that their planet has a reasonable amount of nautical experience and has normal oceans. That could be almost anyone.

Also, I’m sorry to nitpick, but Hoid doesn’t say that the audience’s planet has been invaded by ships. He says that ships have landed. Here’s the quote:

Quote

It was the spirit that inhabited this place, you see, obeying the will of its owner. Yes, like the speaking minds inhabiting the ships you’ve seen landing on your planet.

In the late cosmere, any planet could have interstellar ships land in order to trade, explore or just establish contact. So, again, this could be anyone. 
 

I agree that Hoid is frequently cryptic to the people around him, and makes references they won’t understand. But the way he’s telling this story implies, I think, that he means to be understood. He goes out of his way to explain some things, like the Luhel bond, the fluidisation and the rain, the iron and steel sprouting tools, the way dragons spread legends of themselves, etc. Why explain some things in detail if you don’t mean to be understood?

[+Oltux72]

8 hours ago, Kaladong Stormguy said:

So unless knowledge of the role suddenly became far more widespread, I don't think we can say that people on other planets or even other nations know of that title. Wit does continue to use that as his name on Roshar, but he doesn't really act in that role after WoK.

And that is kind of the point. He is the chief advisor to the queen by now, yet is keeping the old title. Its meaning has started changing.

1 hour ago, RedBlue said:

Also, I’m sorry to nitpick, but Hoid doesn’t say that the audience’s planet has been invaded by ships. He says that ships have landed. Here’s the quote:

In the late cosmere, any planet could have interstellar ships land in order to trade, explore or just establish contact. So, again, this could be anyone.

It heavily implies that the ships landing on that planet do not originate on the planet they are landing on. Hence the technologically advanced planets can be ruled out. By the procress of elimination that leaves: Threnody, Sel and First of the Sun (and of course many planets totally unknown or mere names - but that is unproductive)

And then there is the mention of somebody sailing around the world without aviar.

[RedBlue]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

It heavily implies that the ships landing on that planet do not originate on the planet they are landing on. Hence the technologically advanced planets can be ruled out.

I agree that Hoid is referring to ships from a different system. Why would that rule out technologically advanced planets? Once the space age is underway, I would assume all planets have been landed on by ships from at least one other system. This information rules out nobody.

Also, I see a lot of people latching on to the Aviar reference as a hint that the audience is from First of the Sun. I think that’s a bit of a leap. Lots of people know what an Aviar is; Aviar have been traded to other planets via Shadesmar for ages (Mraize had one way before the space age). Aviar are probably common knowledge by this point. And the ‘around the world’ vs ‘around their world’ phrasing is just how that phrase goes.

[+Oltux72]

10 hours ago, RedBlue said:

I agree that Hoid is referring to ships from a different system. Why would that rule out technologically advanced planets? Once the space age is underway, I would assume all planets have been landed on by ships from at least one other system. This information rules out nobody.

Because then he would simply say "of your space ships". Stressing the landing part makes no sense. The star ships surely still have their computer when they start again.

10 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Also, I see a lot of people latching on to the Aviar reference as a hint that the audience is from First of the Sun. I think that’s a bit of a leap. Lots of people know what an Aviar is; Aviar have been traded to other planets via Shadesmar for ages (Mraize had one way before the space age). Aviar are probably common knowledge by this point. And the ‘around the world’ vs ‘around their world’ phrasing is just how that phrase goes.

Yes, but presumably far fewer people know that aviars are used to hide from telepathic sea monsters. Though we cannot rule out that he is speaking in a lecture hall in Silverlight to a grouo of students from another world who would know the story or something similar. The evidence looks suggestive to me but far from definite.

[Ashbringer]

Hoid also mentions vending machines.

I don’t think that narrows it down at all, but it’s kinda cool.

[Vin(Diesel)]

Hoid could be talking to a group of worldhoppers from multiple planets in the cognitive realm.

That would fit with the clues in his narration that seem to indicate Roshar, First of the Sun, etc. 

I say in the cognitive realm, not on a spaceship, as he caught himself calling a laptop a laptop and switched to calling it a magical board or something. These people don't all know about the technology that is available in some parts of the Cosmere, but they would if they were on a spaceship. Or maybe Hoid had just decided to tell the story in a style that precludes the mention of certain technology. Fairy tale style, or using only language that the people in the story would have understood. 

[ranstang94]

The story seems to have intentional mentions of several planets and cultures. I second the notion that it is to a mixed group of people from many worlds. Maybe a pep talk before something dangerous we will witness in a future book? Or a guest lecture at Silverlight? Regardless I also was worried about the lack of Design.

Another point: He says sailors fear storms, this applies to all planets that have sailors even ours. He says, "But you come from a world where things live in the water; that idea was wholly alien to Tress," this also applies to many worlds although Sixth and Roshar are the two most prominent for having dangerous things in the water. I don't feel that either of these narrow it down. all tech references seemed to be reworded quickly to avoid confusing his audiance "Laptop" to "Seeing Board". He mentions Awakened, Aviars, Sazed, Aeons, Death with Nails in eyes, and tons more... it seems like it has to be a group. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by ranstang94
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