Refraction and Bendalloy Bubbles *SPOILERS*

[Soother]

I was of the opinion that object leaving a Slider's bubble were not acting erratically, but functioned in a similar way to the way light refracts when it changes mediums (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refraction). This would give the space within the Bendalloy bubble a refractive index of ~.125 assuming the quoted figure of a Slider compressing 2 minutes into 15 seconds (15s/120s)and a refractive index of air as 1. This would allow one to calculate then the angle and speed of a projectile leaving a speed bubble, and it would not be 'random' but calculable. Though this does have the interesting side effect that bullets fired through the bubble move at 8 times the muzzle velocity of the gun in question

Edited November 11, 2011 by Soother

[KChan]

Keep in mind, though, that the Alloy of Law's technology level is comparable to that of the Edwardian period. I doubt they've even thought of refractive indexes at all yet, let alone measured them. What one might see now as refraction, someone back then might view as behaving erratically just because the bullet doesn't move in a straight line.

[Soother]

Oh, I had figured that they wouldn't understand the maths behind it, just my theory on how it works within the universe. I would imagine a person leaving while the bubble was up would have some nasty repercussions though. The part of the person's body would be moving 8 times as fast on the other side of the bubble... I don't think flesh and bone would like that very much

[KChan]

Oh, okay. I wasn't sure, since you didn't mention that part of it. Still, it's a good reminder to give to other people, I guess.

That said, Brandon has mentioned that the original Mistborn series was pitched as a trilogy of trilogies. So, nine books. Plus, we have the additional novels following Wax, Wayne, & co. Now, Brandon said that we wouldn't understand the bendalloy bubble clue until "about ten books" from now. What's in that final Mistborn trilogy? Allomantic FTL travel. Hmmm...

[Satsuoni]

I was of the opinion that object leaving a Slider's bubble were not acting erratically, but functioned in a similar way to the way light refracts when it changes mediums (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refraction). This would give the space within the Bendalloy bubble a refractive index of ~.125 assuming the quoted figure of a Slider compressing 2 minutes into 15 seconds (15s/120s)and a refractive index of air as 1. This would allow one to calculate then the angle and speed of a projectile leaving a speed bubble, and it would not be 'random' but calculable. Though this does have the interesting side effect that bullets fired through the bubble move at 8 times the muzzle velocity of the gun in question

The very first idea that came into my mind.

Although it seems that you can, in fact exit time bubble (at least one person was trying to, but he may have been the exception). There may be a transition zone, rather than clear border, so the calculations become much harder. Hm.. You know, there is a lot to ask about the time bubbles, the simplest being- do you age faster inside the thing (same goes for feruchemy speed, btw)? How many years does Wayne lose by sliding constantly? And also, do the effects of Slider and Pulser cancel themselves completely, or do they create a zone of no-effect equal to the bendalloy bubble? (it seems that completely..)

FTL Travel, hm... Maybe the bubble can move with the ship, as it moves with the planet... Also, Allomancy Magitek.

A pity I could not attend the release, being in Tokyo and all...

[Soother]

Maybe the bubble can move with the ship, as it moves with the planet...

It is not clear yet as to where the bubble is rooted to, since we know that the planets are not stationary in space, but nor are the bubbles linked to the slider. It might be an advanced technique to allow the bubble to move with the slider.

the simplest being- do you age faster inside the thing (same goes for feruchemy speed, btw)?

I would think that a slider would age at a constant rate relative to their frame of reference, but outside of the bubble they would appear to age 8 times as fast (assuming the 2min/15s conversion factor). For a feruchemist, unless they are moving at relativistic speeds, there would likely be little effect on the age of them by moving faster.

There may be a transition zone, rather than clear border, so the calculations become much harder.

As far as the transition between bubble and outside, not enough detail was really given to create a good theory around how it would work leaving the bubble. the only real evidence we have about the mechanics is the instantaneous velocity change of Wax's bullets leaving the bubble, and not a gradual bending of the bullet, as I would expect to see were the time dilation not constant. Nor is there distortion shown within the bubble when you get the perspective from within it, such as the sound distortion mentioned

[Thucydides]

It is not clear yet as to where the bubble is rooted to, since we know that the planets are not stationary in space, but nor are the bubbles linked to the slider. It might be an advanced technique to allow the bubble to move with the slider.

I would think that the bubble would have the same frame of reference as it's creator. If you are on a train, the train appears stationary while the landscape moves; therefore, your bubble will move with the train. However you yourself don't appear stationary from your own point of view, when you take a step it appears as if you moved one step while the train stood still; therefore the bubble will not move with you. Basically when you create a bubble it will be rooted to whatever appears stationary from your frame of reference at the time you created the bubble.

So... I would guess it would move with a ship, which would be really cool if you could make one big enough to encompass the entire ship, but that would be a really tiny little ship.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Thucydides

[Catalyst21]

The very first idea that came into my mind.

Although it seems that you can, in fact exit time bubble (at least one person was trying to, but he may have been the exception). There may be a transition zone, rather than clear border, so the calculations become much harder. Hm.. You know, there is a lot to ask about the time bubbles, the simplest being- do you age faster inside the thing (same goes for feruchemy speed, btw)? How many years does Wayne lose by sliding constantly? And also, do the effects of Slider and Pulser cancel themselves completely, or do they create a zone of no-effect equal to the bendalloy bubble? (it seems that completely..)

FTL Travel, hm... Maybe the bubble can move with the ship, as it moves with the planet... Also, Allomancy Magitek.

A pity I could not attend the release, being in Tokyo and all...

Wax and Marasi exited a time bubble during the assassination attempt.

Page 164

...Waxillium grabbed Marasi, pulling her over with a yelp. He rolled onto his back, holding her tightly atop him...

...He amplified his weight...

Page 165

...The wood crunched, then burst, exploding downward. Waxillium dropped out of Wayne's bubble of speed and hit real time, the shift jostling him....

Edited November 11, 2011 by Catalyst21

[Satsuoni]

Wax and Marasi exited a time bubble during the assassination attempt.

Page 164

...Waxillium grabbed Marasi, pulling her over with a yelp. He rolled onto his back, holding her tightly atop him...

...He amplified his weight...

Page 165

...The wood crunched, then burst, exploding downward. Waxillium dropped out of Wayne's bubble of speed and hit real time, the shift jostling him....

Ah yes, that is right. I forgot about that episode. SO the distortion is small enough for a human to survive without injuries.

[Soother]

Maybe you pass through Shadesmar for an infinitesimal time period when you hit the event horizon of a speed bubble... (There are no grounds for it, but it would be interesting)

[KChan]

I've moved these posts into the Mistborn board. When a mod asks you to take a discussion to a more appropriate board, please do so. Thank you.

[Chaos]

I'd like to note that Snell's Law, which concerns incidences of refraction, was first described in 984, but more commonly in the 1600s. By the end of the 19th Century, we had classical physics down pretty well (people thought we'd know everything shortly thereafter, but quantum mechanics screwed that up). We knew pretty much all the physics needed for that discussion.

Of course, the characters aren't physicists.

[CrazyRioter]

I would think that the bubble would have the same frame of reference as it's creator. If you are on a train, the train appears stationary while the landscape moves; therefore, your bubble will move with the train. However you yourself don't appear stationary from your own point of view, when you take a step it appears as if you moved one step while the train stood still; therefore the bubble will not move with you. Basically when you create a bubble it will be rooted to whatever appears stationary from your frame of reference at the time you created the bubble.

So... I would guess it would move with a ship, which would be really cool if you could make one big enough to encompass the entire ship, but that would be a really tiny little ship.

I'm going to agree with this, it seems the easiest way to explain how it works.

Although, what would happen if you created a speed bubble inside a stopped train which then began moving? Does this theory still work if the train speeds up or slows down while the bubble is up (obviously this is more of an issue with Cadmium rather then bendalloy as the latter the bubble won't last long enough in real time for the train to accelerate or decelerate much....) acceleration provides an outside frame of reference that makes you aware of motion. Or something, I am jetlaggged and maybe not making sense.

[happyman]

I remember that back before the book came out, Brandon came here to do some research on how time bubbles would affect things moving in and out, like light. The basic conclusion we came to was that the real-world effects would be unmanageable as part of a useful magic system. So be aware that when you discuss this, a certain amount of handwavium will have to be invoked.

[Catalyst21]

I remember that back before the book came out, Brandon came here to do some research on how time bubbles would affect things moving in and out, like light. The basic conclusion we came to was that the real-world effects would be unmanageable as part of a useful magic system. So be aware that when you discuss this, a certain amount of handwavium will have to be invoked.

@happyman:

where is "here"?

[Joe ST]

Of course, the characters aren't physicists.

and of course, the 'magical' element of it is likely to slow down the physics of the matter also.

[happyman]

@happyman:

where is "here"?

Here is this thread. Sorry. Read it and you'll get a pretty good idea of why none of it was used.

[Musicspren]

An issue with exiting: Wax and Marasi theoretically "should" be pancakes (or, if you prefer, waffles). As Wax and Marasi were falling, let's suppose that they were going downward at 4 m/s. I don't know if that's reasonable, but pretend for the moment that it is. As they hit the edge of the bubble, I assume they continued traveling at 4 m/s. But the time outside the bubble was several times slower; think about how they could watch the explosion happening and have time to discuss it (I suspect in this case even the 8 times speed is not realistic; Wayne was probably flaring his bendalloy, but I'll use the multiplier of 8 for this example). Thus, when Wax's toes hit "normal time," their 4 m/s would be equivalent to 0.5 m/s inside. Viewed from outside, his toes were falling at 4 m/s, and everything else was falling at 32 m/s. His entire body should have exited the bubble while no more than his knees have had time to fall outside. I don't know if this would be possible to survive; it may just be like hitting a very dense liquid at high speed, but I suspect it would do more than "jostle."

I'm not saying that this is a mistake, simply that this is "what happens when something leaves a bendalloy bubble" that will not make sense for 10 books. Something very strange is happening that allows Wax and Marasi to exit unharmed.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Sure, Musicspren, but by that same token, the bullets should be getting damaged (maybe even shredded), rather than just getting skewed.

Oddly, if the distortion of bullets is caused by differing magical forces, rather than differing physical ones (or any similar handwavey reasoning), then that makes my idea of a Bendalloy Misting/Chromium Ferring (who shoots a lot out of Speed Bubbles while tapping Luck, to hit despite the distortion) somewhat less workable, since that might mean that the luck is somehow confined inside the bubble by the same forces which distort time, but not light. As with the rest of this thread, I suppose we do not have enough data.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[twinborn97]

I want to know what happens when a Slider of Pulser leaves there bubble? Will it just collapse or will it just stay there? THis is my first post and i really think this is an awesome site!

[Arcanist Lupus]

What I want to know is, what happens if someone throws up a bubble around a portion of a moving train (while standing on the stationary ground next to the train).

[Deus Ex Biotica]

I the same thing as happens when any other fast-moving object passes into the bubble: it enters the frame of reference of those inside. It cannot move fast (the train parts around it hold it in place), and it's not sheared in half (not any more than Wax and Marasi are when they pass through), but you could open windows one by one, or write elaborate graffiti, or what have you.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

P.S. Personally, I wonder why bullets get deflected going out, but not coming in.

[Aranfan]

I recall that they got deflected both ways.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

There is some discussion of how, at the climax, any Vanisher could have effortlessly picked them off. If bullets deflect going in, this should not be the case - the moment one bullet misses, Marasi could drop the bubble.

Also, if object can pass out just fine, why not take very careful aim, then push the tip of your pistol through the bubble and fire? I assume this must be impossible, but cannot think of a lot of reasons why.

The more I contemplate it, the more trouble that scene of Wax and Marasi falling out of the bubble (rather than Wayne dropping it a moment sooner) causes.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

P.S. Also, I wonder what happens if you start a bubble with someone half in and half out of where it springs up - without gravity to move them through the barrier smoothly, and with their head outside so they cannot think fast enough to respond, are they essentially at your mercy?

Edited November 29, 2011 by Deus Ex Biotica

[Arcanist Lupus]

Also, if object can pass out just fine, why not take very careful aim, then push the tip of your pistol through the bubble and fire? I assume this must be impossible, but cannot think of a lot of reasons why.

The best reason I could come up with is that the bullet would deflect before it leaves the gun, cause damage to the barrel, and potentially cause the gun to explode.