Scadrian futuresight

[NameIess]

I was scrolling through WoB's on Atium, and I noticed this one talking about what happened when Elend burned Atium with duraluminum:

Spoiler

Sylos

I was happy when Elend finally burned duralumin with atium. I was holding my breath hoping that someone would eventually do it. However we didn't really get any info as to what Elend experienced. Does a duralumin-enhanced atium burn allow a person to see significantly farther into the future? If so, being that Elend's army was dying all around him did he get to see into the afterlife? Also if you could tell us what he saw that would be awesome. Did something he saw make him not want to avoid Marshes strike?

On a similar note if someone burned electrum with duralumin would they get to see significantly into their own future?

Brandon Sanderson

There is much here that I can't say, but I'll give as much as I can. Elend saw Preservation's ultimate plan, and Elend's own part in it. What he saw made him realize he didn't want to kill Marsh, and that his own death would actually help save the world. Like a master chess player, he suddenly saw and understand every possible move his enemy could make. He saw that Ruin was check-mated, because there was one thing that Ruin was not willing to do. Something that both Elend and Vin could do, if needed. And it's what they did.

So, in answer to your question, Elend stayed his hand. This is one of the reasons why I changed my mind and decided that Marsh had to live through the end of the book. Elend spared him; I needed to too.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

The wording of this surprised me, honestly. Elend "spared" Marsh? Considering how that fight was going and that Elend had just burned away all of his Atium, it doesn't seem like he'd have much choice in the matter. Unless Duraluminum Atium allowed him to continue splitting Marsh's Atium shadows, or even bypass Marsh's Atium somehow. He did see "every possible move his enemy could make", so maybe that would've allowed him to react to anything Marsh did, regardless of Atium

That last part is just speculation, and is a lot to base off of the possible implications of one WoB from 2008, but the futuresight ability of duraluminum Atium is still very strong. Elend was able to see Preservation's plan, which took Kelsier holding the power of Preservation a while to figure out. Admittedly, Elend did have more information about Preservation's plan, but still.

Now, we have this WoB that says electrum could replicate Elend's feat, albeit with more "interference":

Spoiler

Wigginns

What would a Hemalurgic spike granting atium do for an Allomancer already able to burn atium? Does it function similarly to bronze, granting enhanced atium-ing? Along this line of thought, would enhancing electrum burning via spike be of any advantage?

Brandon Sanderson

A spike of something you have would enhance your ability, giving your more strength. With atium, more strength makes for a minimal edge--the length you can push out the atium shadows. However, there's a certain breaking point where you kind of crack the whole system, peer straight into the [Spiritual Realm], and kind of have a "It's full of stars" moment.

Electrum could reach this same moment, potentially, though there's more interference to fight through. Extra strength in electrum isn't going to be terribly useful up to that point.

Alsadius

Is that what happened when atium was burned with duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Footnote: In his original response Brandon mistakenly said burning atium and duralumin would cause the Allomancer to peer into the Cognitive Realm, rather than Spiritual Realm. He has since confirmed that this was a mistake.
/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 1, 2015)

Of course, without Mistborn to burn duraluminum, this wouldn't be possible. However, hemalurgy exists. As do Nicrobursts. So any Oracle that's friends with a Nicroburst and has enough money to buy electrum can see the future whenever they want. They might not be able to have the same understanding that Elend got, as one of Atium's major effects is increasing the mind's ability to comprehend what it sees, but an F-zinc medallion or metalmind could help with that. With hemalurgy, it would be fairly easy to make Allomancers capable of seeing the future on demand. Any Allomancer with A-duraluminum, A-electrum, and F-zinc should have no problem seeing the future.

Now, unless something we haven't seen is preventing this from working, I'd say this places Scadrial on the top of futuresight in the Cosmere, aside from Shards and potentially Wyrn. The Returned get only one glimpse into the future, and they don't even get to keep their memories of it. They see glimpses of the future they've seen in their dreams and in paintings, unless they recover their memories, which doesn't happen often. On Roshar, corrupted Truthwatchers can see the future, but they can't choose when to receive their visions and they only see parts of the future, through paintings. The only futuresight that's been onscreen that could potentially match this (besides a Shards, of course) is Riino the lighthouse keeper's. Kaladin managed to get a glimpse of the future without training, and if training allows one to get better visions, it is possible that it could match boosted-electrum futuresight. However, as that method requires a Highstorm, boosted-electrum futuresight is still superior to it in ease of access, even if it does work just as well in quality of futuresight.

So, what do you all think? Is there a reason that electrum futuresight wouldn't work as I think it would? Is Scadrial going to become the new center of futuresight in the Cosmere? Do you think that an Allomancer with A-duraluminum and A-electrum would be able to use the ability in combat as effectively as Atium?

Edited December 22, 2022 by UnfortunatelyNamed

[StanLemon]

I think even breaking into the Spiritual Realm with Electrum would still focus any future sight on yourselves. The main reason I think this is because as Kelsier died he got a peek into the Spiritual Realm with Malatium and it was focused around Rashek's past. 

Though I do agree that Scadrial has likely one of if not the best future sight potential. Also there is this about pure Atium which seems to be the Duralumin effect without the need for Duralumin 

Quote

/u/AAKS_

My understanding is that Brandon thinks it is a plothole that Lerasium can be burned by Scadrian (regardless of if they are mistings/mistborn) but Atium can't.

His solution is to retcon the Pits to naturally produce an Atium/Electrum alloy, presumably by the design of Preservation. Therefore we don't know what pure Atium looks like or does when used in any magic.

Peter Ahlstrom

We do know what it does. It’s on the Allomancy poster, and the effect appeared one time at the end of Hero of Ages.

LewsTherinTelescope

Interesting. Do you know if he had already conceived the retcon by the time the poster was written, or if that line about pure atium just turned out to fit really well retroactively?

Peter Ahlstrom

The retcon is way older than a lot of people assume.

LewsTherinTelescope

Does this mean he had it in mind by the time Hero of Ages released (since the first public version of the poster dates to 2008), or just that it's old but not sure exactly how old?

Peter Ahlstrom

Remember that what's in the books is filtered through the understanding of the characters. So even if Brandon planned it from the beginning, if the characters didn't know about it, it's not going to come out in the book.

And see this thread reply from 2009.

Footnote: The link is to a post on the Timewaster's Guide forums, where Peter responds to someone asking about whether atium is an alloy by saying he now knows enough to confirm or deny the theory, but is not allowed to.
General Reddit 2022 (Dec. 4, 2022)

 

[Crucible of Shards]

I think your idea will work. However, just like in Dune Messiah where everyone using spice and doing tarot interfered to a great extent with Paul’s future sight, so also there is likely going to be interference from others once enough people start doing it. The more people that look at the future, (and specifically, the more people looking for the same things in the future) the less clear and the shorter sighted all future sight will become. We have precedent with Odium’s plan and Renarin’s interference in his ability to foresee the future. 
 

is that clear?

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I think even breaking into the Spiritual Realm with Electrum would still focus any future sight on yourselves. The main reason I think this is because as Kelsier died he got a peek into the Spiritual Realm with Malatium and it was focused around Rashek's past. 

Though I do agree that Scadrial has likely one of if not the best future sight potential. Also there is this about pure Atium which seems to be the Duralumin effect without the need for Duralumin 

That is a good point, and something I didn't think about. Boosted electrum will still probably be very useful in planning. For example, you could have one person who receives reports of whatever you wanted futuresight's input on so that their future would include details of the future missions, so they could advise planning that way.

5 minutes ago, Crucible of Shards said:

I think your idea will work. However, just like in Dune Messiah where everyone using spice and doing tarot interfered to a great extent with Paul’s future sight, so also there is likely going to be interference from others once enough people start doing it. The more people that look at the future, (and specifically, the more people looking for the same things in the future) the less clear and the shorter sighted all future sight will become. We have precedent with Odium’s plan and Renarin’s interference in his ability to foresee the future. 

I get what you're saying, but I think in general the futuresight will still be limited enough in scope that it won't be affected unless someone else with futuresight interferes directly. On Scadrial that would definitely be a problem, with how relatively easy it is to access futuresight. In an interplanetary conflict it could be extremely useful. Roshar's corrupted Truthwatchers could counter it if their visions are reliable enough, and the Returned might be able to interfere with it to some extent, but all in all Scadrial's access to futuresight will just be so much more reliable than anything that other planets currently have.

[alder24]

How I've missed that extrema effect of duralumin powered Atium that was able to pass through Marsh's Atium? That alone is a huge deal. But Eland now saw the Preservation plan? That is massive. 

But I agree, electrum would focus only on misting life, but most likely entire life in different possible ways. 

And pure Atium with duralumin could see even more. 

TLM spoilers

Spoiler

However now era 1 Atium and Lerasium might be coming back, so there is a possibility of making new era 1 Atium mistings and replicating Elends vision. 

It seams that Scadrial really have the best future visions in the entire Cosmere, rivaled only by Shards.

[Werewolff Studios]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

It seams that Scadrial really have the best future visions in the entire Cosmere, rivaled only by Shards.

Renarin and other enlightened Truthwatchers might be another contender, but I think for the most part you're correct. As @UnfortunatelyNamed said, the Scadrians will be able to access it with relative ease. How reliable electrum future sight is though, that's another question. 

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said:

Renarin and other enlightened Truthwatchers might be another contender, but I think for the most part you're correct. As @UnfortunatelyNamed said, the Scadrians will be able to access it with relative ease. How reliable electrum future sight is though, that's another question. 

It's more reliable to access at least, and a seeing into the spiritual realm seems to be pretty reliable. Your sight won't be clouded by a Shard's preconceptions, like enlightened Truthwatcher's is.

[Werewolff Studios]

2 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

It's more reliable to access at least, and a seeing into the spiritual realm seems to be pretty reliable. Your sight won't be clouded by a Shard's preconceptions, like enlightened Truthwatcher's is.

That's a valid point too, though wouldn't a Scadrian's vision be coloured slightly by Preservation/ Harmony to some extent? Just based on how you're accessing the magic? 

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said:

That's a valid point too, though wouldn't a Scadrian's vision be coloured slightly by Preservation/ Harmony to some extent? Just based on how you're accessing the magic? 

Maybe, but this should be a pure vision from the Spiritual realm. Elend used Atium, but he saw things that Ruin didn’t.

[Werewolff Studios]

3 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Maybe, but this should be a pure vision from the Spiritual realm. Elend used Atium, but he saw things that Ruin didn’t.

Yeah that's true. I was moreso referring to the idea that Allomancy is Preservation's magic system. If a Scadrian accessed the Spiritual Realm via Hemalurgy, maybe their vision would be coloured by Ruin? 

It's a hard field to maneuver through in fairness, since the strongest example we have is a Lerasium-powered Mistborn burning a lot of Atium with Duralumin at a critical juncture in Preservation's scheme. Not exactly the run of the mill baseline 

[NameIess]

Just now, Werewolff Studios said:

Yeah that's true. I was moreso referring to the idea that Allomancy is Preservation's magic system. If a Scadrian accessed the Spiritual Realm via Hemalurgy, maybe their vision would be coloured by Ruin? 

It's a hard field to maneuver through in fairness, since the strongest example we have is a Lerasium-powered Mistborn burning a lot of Atium with Duralumin at a critical juncture in Preservation's scheme. Not exactly the run of the mill baseline 

Allowance is Preservation’s magic system, but with Atium the power comes from Ruin. Although the electrum-Atium alloying might affect that.

And yeah, I agree that we don’t have all the details of how it works. Just that one scene with Elend and the description from that WoB. Still, unless there’s something major that we’re missing, it’s at least a more reliably accessed and less specific form of what an enlightened Truthwatcher can do.

[Werewolff Studios]

Just now, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

it’s at least a more reliably accessed and less specific form of what an enlightened Truthwatcher can do.

Yeah, that's definitely true. It'll be interesting when we get to Renarin's book to see what the intricates of their future sight are really like.

[Frustration]

Wasn't Elend being fueled directly by Preservation at that point?

13 hours ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

The Returned get only one glimpse into the future, and they don't even get to keep their memories of it. They see glimpses of the future they've seen in their dreams and in paintings, unless they recover their memories, which doesn't happen often.

Returned see more than just their first vision in their dreams and paintings. For example Allmother saw Lightsongs colors in her paintings, and his face in her dreams for the week leading up to her giving him her codes.

And current events impact their dreams of the future

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

And yes, he dreams this while Siri and the God King have sex for the first time. That's not a coincidence.

Why does Siri having sex with the God King make Lightsong's dreams turn more violent? Well, it means that the impending disaster is far more dangerous. If she is with child, then the tragedy of her death is that much greater. Beyond that, her having a child (or being thought to be going to have one) is part of what makes Bluefingers do what he feels he needs to in executing her.

He might have done that anyway, but the actual event of the consummation of the marriage is a powerful turning point in the karma of the city and the future of the world. And Lightsong, who is extra sensitive to these things because of being a Returned, is affected by that change in what is coming in the future.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/250/#e7348

 

 

[StanLemon]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Wasn't Elend being fueled directly by Preservation at that point?

His regular Allomancy was, but he still had Atium in his stomach that was the fuel for his future sight

[NameIess]

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

Returned see more than just their first vision in their dreams and paintings. For example Allmother saw Lightsongs colors in her paintings, and his face in her dreams for the week leading up to her giving him her codes.

And current events impact their dreams of the future

  Reveal hidden contents

Returned could have seen that in their initial vision. Lightsong could have seen Bluefinger's plan, and he could have just been more sensitive to current events and how they affect the future he'd seen. Still, it does put Nalthis higher than I was ranking it. Probably not as high as boosted electrum, at least in terms of reliability, but it is pretty powerful.

[Frustration]

9 hours ago, StanLemon said:

His regular Allomancy was, but he still had Atium in his stomach that was the fuel for his future sight

That's still Preservation fueled duraluminum.

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's still Preservation fueled duraluminum.

Doesn't really matter. Duraluminum instantly burns your metals pretty much regardless of power level.

[Thanatos]

Its funny Atium is an OP future sight ability that seems to be better than all shards ability future sight wise.

Yet Preservation saw more and out smarted Ruin.

When Atium is Ruin.

[NameIess]

4 hours ago, Thanatos said:

Its funny Atium is an OP future sight ability that seems to be better than all shards ability future sight wise.

Yet Preservation saw more and out smarted Ruin.

When Atium is Ruin.

It's definitely not better than a Shard's futuresight. Elend saw into the Spiritual realm, but a Shard can do that whenever they want. Ruin couldn't see Preservation's plan because he didn't think that Preservation could destroy him no matter who the vessel was. Elend didn't have that bias, so he was able to see the plan.