How did Kelsier lose his powers?

[TheWanderer]

So, finished the lost metal awhile ago and one thing has been rattling around in my brain to no end. Kelsier has seemingly lost all his powers and even with hemallurgy can't seem to do anything other than use steel sight. I am sure I am not the only one who wonders how he got to and helped the southern scadrians. Not to mention how he has managed to keep this so secret from his new crew. Most of all, I wonder why this is the case for him and not other fused as he seems unable to use unkeyed metal minds as well? The heralds have their shardblades and use external energy (stormlight). In addition returned utilize breath which could arguably be seen as an external investiture. Which to me would imply that cognitive shadows cannot use investiture innately. However, the fact that kelsier cannot to the best of my knowledge use unkeyed metal minds seems to imply there is something more going on. Would love to discuss with anyone, and thanks for chatting in advance.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

He died.

In all seriousness though, he's probably having issues with his powers because of how he's connected to his body. I suspect that Spook made the BoM and medallions that the southerners use with instruction from Kelsier.

[TheWanderer]

41 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

He died.

In all seriousness though, he's probably having issues with his powers because of how he's connected to his body. I suspect that Spook made the BoM and medallions that the southerners use with instruction from Kelsier.

True I assume his death factored in a great deal. Hence why I alluded to the returned and the heralds who at least seem capable of utilizing external forms of investiture. Though I do agree the unique nature of his resurrection is likely an important factor. 

[CognitiveShadow]

Because his soul was stapled to a mist-wraith, and then he ate his old bones. So now he is like a kandra and a cognitive shadow. When a kandra eats a mistborns bones, it doesn’t gain the allomantic abilities. His spike is both a kandra blessing and a hemelurgic staple connecting his cognitive self to his physical self.

[Isilel]

There is no reason to think that Kelsier can't use the medallions, is there? He travels on airships, after all. 

[TheWanderer]

51 minutes ago, Isilel said:

There is no reason to think that Kelsier can't use the medallions, is there? He travels on airships, after all. 

I could have sworn there was something stating that he cannot use unkeyed metal minds either. But that may have been a bad inference on my part. Not sure if one person's weight would wreck an airship though. Either way, I will have to think on that.

[JustQuestin2004]

1 hour ago, TheWanderer said:

I could have sworn there was something stating that he cannot use unkeyed metal minds either. But that may have been a bad inference on my part. Not sure if one person's weight would wreck an airship though. Either way, I will have to think on that.

I don't think it was ever said if he could or not, but if he could use Unsealed Metalminds then why did he hide the Bands of Mourning and not keep them for himself? When he is explicitly looking for a way to use Allomancy again? 

[CognitiveShadow]

4 hours ago, Isilel said:

There is no reason to think that Kelsier can't use the medallions, is there? He travels on airships, after all. 

He and spook (and some full feruchemist) created the bands in an effort to find a way for him to gain powers again, but it didn’t work. Helping out the people in the south was an added bonus, and gave him a base of operations for a while. It also let him create another cult which is always nice. But that’s why he set up the temple and traps and everything, so that he could store the bands somewhere “safe” and swing by and pick them up once he figured out a way to make them work in his kandra-state. 
 

And before anyone asks, I think Hoid did something funny to get the memory out of Kelsier- tricked him and did some special Hoid shenanigans to steal the memory (and likely some other things as well). Heck maybe he even was able to replicate / forge the memory himself.

[kenod]

2 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

And before anyone asks, I think Hoid did something funny to get the memory out of Kelsier- tricked him and did some special Hoid shenanigans to steal the memory (and likely some other things as well). Heck maybe he even was able to replicate / forge the memory himself.

I actually wonder if this is a standard feature of currency in the South. It makes sense from a religion perspective, and it'd also make it quite a bit harder to fake currency if you don't have access to copper compounding.

[Frustration]

8 hours ago, Isilel said:

There is no reason to think that Kelsier can't use the medallions, is there? He travels on airships, after all. 

He also stored memories in the coin.

It is never mentioned anywhere that Kelsier can't use them.

[kenod]

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

He also stored memories in the coin.

It is never mentioned anywhere that Kelsier can't use them.

Do we actually have evidence medallions can give Allomancy, or just Feruchemy? Because that would explain why he misses Allomancy but without introducing the question of why medallions wouldn't work.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, kenod said:

Do we actually have evidence medallions can give Allomancy, or just Feruchemy? Because that would explain why he misses Allomancy but without introducing the question of why medallions wouldn't work.

Aside from the bands all medallions we have seen have been feruchemical.

[Koloss17]

7 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

He also stored memories in the coin.

It is never mentioned anywhere that Kelsier can't use them.

It’s worth noting that I don’t think the memory is seeing Kelsier in first person. I may be wrong, but that likely means that he’s not the one that made the medallion.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

It’s worth noting that I don’t think the memory is seeing Kelsier in first person. I may be wrong, but that likely means that he’s not the one that made the medallion.

I mean, who else has a spiked eye and scarred arms?

[Koloss17]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I mean, who else has a spiked eye and scarred arms?

The fact that we saw his scars and eyes means that the memory was shown through someone else’s eyes. Unless I’m mistaken about how Copperminds work, I thought you can’t have third person memories in there.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Koloss17 said:

The fact that we saw his scars and eyes means that the memory was shown through someone else’s eyes. Unless I’m mistaken about how Copperminds work, I thought you can’t have third person memories in there.

No, we didn't see his eyes, but we saw through his spike, half of the memory was regular, the other half was a bunch of steel lines.

And you can see your own arms.

[Koloss17]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

No, we didn't see his eyes, but we saw through his spike, half of the memory was regular, the other half was a bunch of steel lines.

And you can see your own arms.

Shows I need a reread. Thanks for the clarification!

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Shows I need a reread. Thanks for the clarification!

You're welcome. 

[lacrossedeamon]

That coin was really a big nothing burger, wasn't it. Like why would Kelsier store that specific memory, how did Hoid get it, why give it to Wax? It's not like Wax seemingly used that knowledge in any meaningful way.

[Frustration]

15 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

That coin was really a big nothing burger, wasn't it. Like why would Kelsier store that specific memory, how did Hoid get it, why give it to Wax? It's not like Wax seemingly used that knowledge in any meaningful way.

Hoid gave the coin to wax to spite Kelsier.

Spoiler

Viridian

Why did Hoid give the memory coin to Wax? What was his intention?

Brandon Sanderson

He thought that certain information was being kept, and certain lies were being perpetuated. And Hoid was a fan of that information being out.

Viridian

I'm still suspicious.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you should be suspicious of Hoid's motive. He and Kelsier do not get along. Let's just say... Kelsier did not want that information to get out.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

[lacrossedeamon]

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

Hoid gave the coin to wax to spite Kelsier.

  Reveal hidden contents

Viridian

Why did Hoid give the memory coin to Wax? What was his intention?

Brandon Sanderson

He thought that certain information was being kept, and certain lies were being perpetuated. And Hoid was a fan of that information being out.

Viridian

I'm still suspicious.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you should be suspicious of Hoid's motive. He and Kelsier do not get along. Let's just say... Kelsier did not want that information to get out.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

I know what Brandon said but we never see Wax doing anything with the Coin that would affect Kelsier in anyway. And again we don't really know anything about the providence of the Coin: why Kelsier stored that memory, how Hoid got it, why it's important. It seems like it was more for the reader than it was for the plot.

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

I'm kinda on the fence with this..

On one hand, it seems obvious Kel no longer has powers. Mostly based off his thoughts in the epilogue, why would his thoughts lies?

On the other hand, I think its quite possible he knows Harmony can read minds and is manipulating him. Though one would think Harmony would be able to tell with some sort of god sight, I doubt a Scadrian would be able to easily fool him in this regard. Though this book and his letter to Hoid does prove its possible.

And back to the first hand, it seems "obvious". This makes me think that other hand is more likely, Kel is using his thoughts to manipulate Harmony (Mr S is using it to manipulate us). 

I also think it's odd Kel didn't pick up on Harmonys lies, though if I'm right he may have but didn't react or think it..

Sigh.. maybe we'll see in.. what, 6 years?

Spoiler

There's always another secret..

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Hoids Imaginary Friend

[CognitiveShadow]

1 hour ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

This makes me think that other hand is more likely, Kel is using his thoughts to manipulate Harmony (Mr S is using it to manipulate us). 

Brandon confirmed that Kelsier is lying to the ghost bloods and they think he still has allomantic powers. But he does not any longer. Harmony would probably know based on his understanding of Kelsier’s spirit web what his powers are etc. good luck keeping a secret like that from the shard(s) that gives you the powers

[Isilel]

On 20.12.2022 at 2:15 PM, CognitiveShadow said:

He and spook (and some full feruchemist) created the bands in an effort to find a way for him to gain powers again, but it didn’t work.

 

Do we actually know that it didn't? Kelsier had to be able to somehow convince the southerners that he was a Fullborn and the Ghostbloods that he was still a Mistborn. He also was able to use feruchemy to store that memory in a coppermind and presumably, he uses weight medallions when flying. Also, he must be able to use connection tricks for translation. 

Maybe the Bands do work for him, but, unlike what kandra thought back in BoM, they can't be  recharged without an access to a Mistborn/ full Feruchemist. After all, we learned about new limits on compounding in TLM, so it is quite likely that one can't use the Bands to recharge themselves via compounding. In this case, there must have been at least 2 copies of the Bands - one in Kelsier's posession and one held in reserve. He had to use his copy very judiciously and it has eventually  run dry. So now he had to trick TenSoon to get the temple copy back. Some of  it's storages are nearly exhausted, but quite a few must be untouched and would allow him to pretend being a Mistborn for a bit longer.

 

Quote

But that’s why he set up the temple and traps and everything, so that he could store the bands somewhere “safe” and swing by and pick them up once he figured out a way to make them work in his kandra-state. 

 

 

The temple still makes zero sense, though - it would have made vastly more sense to hide them in an unmarked cave. There being rumors of them in the Basin is even more suspicious - who except the Ghostbloods could have spread them? IMHO, there must have been some other purpose to all of this, but it didn't quite work out like Kelsier wanted. That is, if he was the one who voluntarily left the Bands there. Maybe someone did it behind his back? And he didn't know where they were and was also looking?

I don't believe that Hoid could have forcibly extracted a memory from somebody else, btw

Edited December 26, 2022 by Isilel

[CognitiveShadow]

20 hours ago, Isilel said:

Do we actually know that it didn't? Kelsier had to be able to somehow convince the southerners that he was a Fullborn and the Ghostbloods that he was still a Mistborn.

Nope, we don’t know anything for certain, all pure speculation at this point. I can see a world where he is able to use the medallions. Maybe he was tricked with that coin, like Hoid in disguise told him it was a way to avoid the madness that inevitably comes to cog shadows who don’t manage their memories, and showed him how to upload but maybe not download memories? And then ran off with the coin and one of his fingers in the air

 

Regarding the temple, I actually think it makes sense when you consider that 1- the whole population of the south knew about the work Kelsier was doing and likely assisted in some ways, and 2- Kelsier loves making religions after himself and being dramatic etc. not too surprising where that ended up all things considered