Death Rattles and SA 5 predictions

[Ati16]

I belive that the death rattles that we saw in TWoK shape out the future of SA arc 1, so I decided to decipher some of them to shape out the events SA 5. 

Here's my theory on what's going to happen:

 

Quote

" A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears. ”

 

After Taravangian becomes Odium's vessel he is going to need Kharbranth for strategic reasons, but his daughter wouldn't give Kharbranth to him and would insist that it remained neutral. Taravangian then loses control over his intent and in his rage destroys Kharbranth.

 

Quote

“Ten people, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red. ”

Taravangian will gather a large army of singers and fused, as he plans to attack Urithiru after the contest of champions.

 

Quote

“I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw. ”

This seems to refer to the contest of champions and Gavinor would almost fit that description if it weren't for the fact that the death rattle said that it would be a "suckling child", which refers more to a baby, but no baby would have the capacity to choose to be Odium's champion. Other than that Gavinor would fit perfectly, because he was tormented by voidspren for a long time in Kholinar and that would allow Odium to send him visions and would allow him to manipulate him.

 

Quote

“So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life... ”

 

This also seems to refer to the contest of champions. "So the night will reign" refers to Odium's rule and "for the choice of honor is life" should fit if Gavinor would be Odium's champion, because it would sound like Dalinar (bonded to a splinter of honor) would not be capable to kill Gavinor, thus the choice of honor or the honorable choice is life (letting Gavinor live). So this would predict that Dalinar would lose the contest of champions.

 

Quote

“He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear! ”

 

This would refer to the situation Kaladin would be in if Dalinar would lose the contest of champions. "The fallen title " would refer to the title of the King of Urithiru, "The tower" would be Urithiru, "the crown" would be the position of the leader and "the spear" would refer to Kaladin and would mean that he would need to go and fight.

 

Quote

“Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it! ”

 

This death rattle pretty much tells us what Dai-gonarthis the unmade we haven't yet seen onscreen does. It pretty clearly tells us that she/he is the one who consumes peoples emotions like what happend to Moash. This probably doesn't refer to Moash, since he gave up his emotions because of guilt not sorrow. This could refer to Dalinar after he lost the contest of champions, because he probably wouldn't be very happy about serving Odium and Odium would need Dai-gonarthis to consume his emotions for him to function as his herald.

 

Quote

“Ten people, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red. ”

 

This could refer to the heralds, but they didn't have Shardblades so I think this could mean the reforging of the oathpact. This could happen after the contest of champions when they have to fight against a giant army of fused and singers and they're leader is dead, then Navani could reforge the oathpact with the new heralds being Kaladin, Szeth, a Dustbringer that we haven't yet seen, Lift, Renarin, Shallan, Jasnah, Venli, a new Stoneward and Navani herself.

 

Conclusion: Taravangian would destroy Kharbranth after losing control of his intent and would gather a giant army of Fused and Singers. Taravangian would choose Gavinor as his champion and Dalinar would be unable to kill him and would lose the contest. After Taravangian won he would attack Urithiru. Kaladin would swear the final oath of the windrunners in the battle. Navani would then reforge the Oathpact and they would drive away Odium's armies.

Any thoughts?

[offer]

11 minutes ago, Ati16 said:

This could refer to the heralds, but they didn't have Shardblades so I think this could mean the reforging of the oathpact. This could happen after the contest of champions when they have to fight against a giant army of fused and singers and they're leader is dead, then Navani could reforge the oathpact with the new heralds being Kaladin, Szeth, a Dustbringer that we haven't yet seen, Lift, Renarin, Shallan, Jasnah, Venli, a new Stoneward and Navani herself.

This idea reminded me of a scene in the end of Oathbringer where Dalinar counts the radiants present - he counts to 9 an has a feeling that there sould be 10 (the 10th is acctually Venli but he doesn`t know about her).

Maybe this is some foreshadowing for the future heralds: Dalinar, Kaladin, Shallna, Jasnah, Renarin, Venli, Szeth, Taln, Shalash and Lift.

I have no idea how Dalinar will be able to enter this if he lost the contest of champions so maybe Navani does need to replace him. Also, I don`t know if Taln and Shalash are in a state to reHerald themselfs, and Lift is probably to young to take such a decision (unless being a herald will no longer contain torture).

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Ati16 said:

This could refer to the heralds, but they didn't have Shardblades so I think this could mean the reforging of the oathpact. This could happen after the contest of champions when they have to fight against a giant army of fused and singers and they're leader is dead, then Navani could reforge the oathpact with the new heralds being Kaladin, Szeth, a Dustbringer that we haven't yet seen, Lift, Renarin, Shallan, Jasnah, Venli, a new Stoneward and Navani herself.

Szeth called his Honorblade a shardblade until WoR.

[Ati16]

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Szeth called his Honorblade a shardblade until WoR.

The subject was an ardent so he might have recognized an Honorblade from descriptions and paintings.

[Frustration]

Just now, Ati16 said:

The subject was an ardent so he might have recognized an Honorblade from descriptions and paintings.

Szeth knows what honorblades are, he calls them that throughout the rest of the series.

[offer]

5 minutes ago, Ati16 said:

The subject was an ardent so he might have recognized an Honorblade from descriptions and paintings.

Probably for Rosharans the honorblades are a kind of shardblade, just more powerfull (except for the shin they might not even know they are more powerful) - They also call Azure`s blade a shardblade. Given the death rattles are sometimes slightly simbolic honorblades could easily count as shardblades for them.

[bmcclure7]

14 hours ago, Ati16 said:

I belive that the death rattles that we saw in TWoK shape out the future of SA arc 1, so I decided to decipher some of them to shape out the events SA 5. 

Here's my theory on what's going to happen:

 

 

After Taravangian becomes Odium's vessel he is going to need Kharbranth for strategic reasons, but his daughter wouldn't give Kharbranth to him and would insist that it remained neutral. Taravangian then loses control over his intent and in his rage destroys Kharbranth.

 

Taravangian will gather a large army of singers and fused, as he plans to attack Urithiru after the contest of champions.

 

This seems to refer to the contest of champions and Gavinor would almost fit that description if it weren't for the fact that the death rattle said that it would be a "suckling child", which refers more to a baby, but no baby would have the capacity to choose to be Odium's champion. Other than that Gavinor would fit perfectly, because he was tormented by voidspren for a long time in Kholinar and that would allow Odium to send him visions and would allow him to manipulate him.

 

 

This also seems to refer to the contest of champions. "So the night will reign" refers to Odium's rule and "for the choice of honor is life" should fit if Gavinor would be Odium's champion, because it would sound like Dalinar (bonded to a splinter of honor) would not be capable to kill Gavinor, thus the choice of honor or the honorable choice is life (letting Gavinor live). So this would predict that Dalinar would lose the contest of champions.

 

 

This would refer to the situation Kaladin would be in if Dalinar would lose the contest of champions. "The fallen title " would refer to the title of the King of Urithiru, "The tower" would be Urithiru, "the crown" would be the position of the leader and "the spear" would refer to Kaladin and would mean that he would need to go and fight.

 

 

This death rattle pretty much tells us what Dai-gonarthis the unmade we haven't yet seen onscreen does. It pretty clearly tells us that she/he is the one who consumes peoples emotions like what happend to Moash. This probably doesn't refer to Moash, since he gave up his emotions because of guilt not sorrow. This could refer to Dalinar after he lost the contest of champions, because he probably wouldn't be very happy about serving Odium and Odium would need Dai-gonarthis to consume his emotions for him to function as his herald.

 

 

This could refer to the heralds, but they didn't have Shardblades so I think this could mean the reforging of the oathpact. This could happen after the contest of champions when they have to fight against a giant army of fused and singers and they're leader is dead, then Navani could reforge the oathpact with the new heralds being Kaladin, Szeth, a Dustbringer that we haven't yet seen, Lift, Renarin, Shallan, Jasnah, Venli, a new Stoneward and Navani herself.

 

Conclusion: Taravangian would destroy Kharbranth after losing control of his intent and would gather a giant army of Fused and Singers. Taravangian would choose Gavinor as his champion and Dalinar would be unable to kill him and would lose the contest. After Taravangian won he would attack Urithiru. Kaladin would swear the final oath of the windrunners in the battle. Navani would then reforge the Oathpact and they would drive away Odium's armies.

Any thoughts?

I have a crazy theory what if the new born baby is some sort of awakend evi, made only a few days before the contest so technically a baby, but made with enough investure to be alive like night blood?

[Adamkarma]

On 19/12/2022 at 8:06 PM, offer said:

This idea reminded me of a scene in the end of Oathbringer where Dalinar counts the radiants present - he counts to 9 an has a feeling that there sould be 10 (the 10th is acctually Venli but he doesn`t know about her).

Maybe this is some foreshadowing for the future heralds: Dalinar, Kaladin, Shallna, Jasnah, Renarin, Venli, Szeth, Taln, Shalash and Lift.

I have no idea how Dalinar will be able to enter this if he lost the contest of champions so maybe Navani does need to replace him. Also, I don`t know if Taln and Shalash are in a state to reHerald themselfs, and Lift is probably to young to take such a decision (unless being a herald will no longer contain torture).

Shalash has the same Surges as Shallan, Illumination and Transformation. they both won't be New Heralds

[Adamkarma]

On 20/12/2022 at 10:20 AM, bmcclure7 said:

I have a crazy theory what if the new born baby is some sort of awakend evi, made only a few days before the contest so technically a baby, but made with enough investure to be alive like night blood?

I have a theory that it's Adolin. don't take the Death Rattles literally. 

Quote

The love of men is a frigid thing, a mountain stream only three steps from the ice. We are his. Oh Stormfather... we are his. It is but a thousand days, and the Everstorm comes.

this was taken on Shashahes 1171. 1227 days before the coming of the Everstorm. not 1000 days. a father always sees his sons as "suckling children". 

and about that he's in Lasting Integrity now. there's always Transportation.

[Toaster Retribution]

On 2022-12-19 at 6:49 PM, Ati16 said:

After Taravangian becomes Odium's vessel he is going to need Kharbranth for strategic reasons, but his daughter wouldn't give Kharbranth to him and would insist that it remained neutral. Taravangian then loses control over his intent and in his rage destroys Kharbranth.

I like this reading of the Death Rattle. The one issue I have is that Brandon mentioned that Mr. T taking up Odium was something he didn't decide upon until writing RoW. He might have foreshadowed for that eventuality way back in WoK, sure, but it does hurt it's likelihood of being true a little for me. 

On 2022-12-19 at 6:49 PM, Ati16 said:

This could refer to the heralds, but they didn't have Shardblades so I think this could mean the reforging of the oathpact. This could happen after the contest of champions when they have to fight against a giant army of fused and singers and they're leader is dead, then Navani could reforge the oathpact with the new heralds being Kaladin, Szeth, a Dustbringer that we haven't yet seen, Lift, Renarin, Shallan, Jasnah, Venli, a new Stoneward and Navani herself.

Reforging the Oathpact is a pretty popular theory, or was, at least. I myself like it, and think it would make a cool ending for SA5. I know a lot of people have issues with it though, and it might be too predictable, and would essentially reset the story to what it was at the start of WoK, but with people we know as Heralds instead and Taravangian as the holder of Odium instead of Rayse. Also, even if we get new Heralds in SA5, I strongly doubt that Lift or Jasnah would be among them. Lift is still a child, and I doubt she would be allowed to take up that kind of burden, and Jasnah is the queen of Alethkar. The people needs leaders and scholars, and she is both, and cannot be afforded to be lost to eternal damnation on Braize.

7 hours ago, Adamkarma said:

Shalash has the same Surges as Shallan, Illumination and Transformation. they both won't be New Heralds

Shalash has no surges, as far as we know. Her Honorblade grants Illumination and Transformation, but Nale was the only Herald to actually bond a spren and gain access to Surgebinding without his blade. It is feasible for Shalash to bond a spren of a different order than the Lightweavers if she so chooses/is deemed worthy. Common speculation pegs her as a potential Dustbringer, mostly because her recent penchant for destruction of various paintings and because the planned flashback-characters won't add up with the Orders of Radiants otherwise. 

[Adamkarma]

@Toaster Retribution Shalash doesn't have Surges. But she's a half immortal being that is mad. I do not think any of them will bond any Spren. Nale bonded his Spren before the False Desolation. when he was not mad.

[alder24]

3 hours ago, Adamkarma said:

@Toaster Retribution Shalash doesn't have Surges. But she's a half immortal being that is mad. I do not think any of them will bond any Spren. Nale bonded his Spren before the False Desolation. when he was not mad.

Madness has no bearing on bonding a spren, it's spren decision. Shallan isn't perfectly sane as well, and yet she is bonded. If spren is willing to bond a mad person, then bond will be made. Moreover madness creates cracks in soul, which makes it easier for spren to create bond. Shalash madness is manifested in destructive manner which is fitting for Dustbringers, as they like to destroy stuff,

[Elder]

The idea of Dalinar being put into the moral dilemma of possibly killing Gavinor is an interesting idea. That said, I have an alternative interpretation for the Tower/Criwn/Spear Deathrattle.  Whether it’s Kalladin or Dalinar…… I think someone needs to pick up the mantel/shard of Honor.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Elder

[Toaster Retribution]

6 hours ago, Adamkarma said:

@Toaster Retribution Shalash doesn't have Surges. But she's a half immortal being that is mad. I do not think any of them will bond any Spren. Nale bonded his Spren before the False Desolation. when he was not mad.

Shalash could presumably get better. Dalinar managed to temporarily heal Taln at Thaylen City, so it shouldn't be impossible. And, as @alder24said, the spren don't really appear to care about madness. Or at least, different kinds of spren have different views on it. The Highspren don't seem to care (ie, they still like Nale, and they bonded Szeth), for example. 

[bmcclure7]

On 1/6/2023 at 9:24 AM, Adamkarma said:

I have a theory that it's Adolin. don't take the Death Rattles literally. 

this was taken on Shashahes 1171. 1227 days before the coming of the Everstorm. not 1000 days. a father always sees his sons as "suckling children". 

and about that he's in Lasting Integrity now. there's always Transportation.

 I understand that but I can't reconcile it with oathbringer,   what Would be the point of all that character  Building with him growing to connect with the Spren of his sword,  If hes just going to abandon that entire plot line in favor of becoming odiums champion. 

 

He also has no reason to, True hes upset at his father but he hasn't actually defied him. Things are not that bad between them. 

 

 I maintain that the  Best answer Is his elder brother in the body of his  Grandson. I also have a theory about it being his dead wife or at least  an awake in creature created from her  Dead body.  However I am self aware enough to realize that this is unlikely. 

Edited January 8, 2023 by bmcclure7

[IlstrawberrySeed]

Brandon has said the death rattles for shadow all ten books. Also, I think the first mentioned is about Szeth and Shinivar.

 

[Toaster Retribution]

18 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I understand that but I can't reconcile it with oathbringer,   what Would be the point of all that character  Building with him growing to connect with the Spren of his sword,  If hes just going to abandon that entire plot line in favor of becoming odiums champion. 

Agreed. Pre-Oathbringer, Adolin as Odiums Champion was a pretty popular theory, and a lot of people expected his character to go down a darker path after murdering Sadeas. If that is what Brandon wanted to do with Adolin, he would have done it then. That was not the route taken, and I do not see Adolin becoming an antagonist in any way. Besides, we already have Moash as the "friend turned enemy"-character.

18 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I also have a theory about it being his dead wife or at least  an awake in creature created from her  Dead body.  However I am self aware enough to realize that this is unlikely. 

I agree with your self-awareness xD. Evis body is most likely a pile of ash scattered by the storms, and I doubt not even a Shard could create much from that. 

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Agreed. Pre-Oathbringer, Adolin as Odiums Champion was a pretty popular theory, and a lot of people expected his character to go down a darker path after murdering Sadeas. If that is what Brandon wanted to do with Adolin, he would have done it then. That was not the route taken, and I do not see Adolin becoming an antagonist in any way. Besides, we already have Moash as the "friend turned enemy"-character.

I agree with your self-awareness xD. Evis body is most likely a pile of ash scattered by the storms, and I doubt not even a Shard could create much from that. 

 No actually we see her body clearly still intact in the oathbringer.  She's probably soul cast as a statue In colinar.  So it is possible it's just very unlikely. 

 

 No that's not why I think it's unlikely, I just think it unlikely that awakening   Would be used in such a key way in a stormlight book.

But it's possible  Odium has all the pieces he needs or at the very least he can easily acquire any pieces he doesn't have. 

Edited January 8, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Adamkarma]

 

12 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 No actually we see her body clearly still intact in the oathbringer.  She's probably soul cast as a statue In colinar.  So it is possible it's just very unlikely. 

 

 No that's not why I think it's unlikely, I just think it unlikely that awakening   Would be used in such a key way in a stormlight book.

But it's possible  Odium has all the pieces he needs or at the very least he can easily acquire any pieces he doesn't have. 

A Shard can't bring a body back from the dead after it goes to the Beyond.

[bmcclure7]

56 minutes ago, Adamkarma said:

 

A Shard can't bring a body back from the dead after it goes to the Beyond.

Your right they can't bring her soul back, her body on the other hand is a different story

You need to read warbreaker, I won't go in to it here but you know seth's talking sword? It is possible to make something similar with a human body. And there are people on roshar that have access to this type of magic. 

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Adamkarma]

@bmcclure7 I did read Warbreaker, but all bodies were "resurrected" after very short time from their death. not 10 years.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Adamkarma said:

@bmcclure7 I did read Warbreaker, but all bodies were "resurrected" after very short time from their death. not 10 years.

He doesn't talk about making her Returned, but I think just making her Lifeless, Awaken or type 4 like Nightblood. Her body now is soulcasted into stone, most likely, and it is possible to awaken that, and even would be easy to do. What he suggest can be done.

However I think it's unlikely, as Dalinar already overcome it, accept that he killed her, and was ever forgiven by her voice. So bringing her back now would lack emotional stakes that were present in OB.

Adolin is unlikely as well, but now he seams to hate his father for what he's done, and that he wrote about it in his book. He is angry about it. He would not fight for Odium, but Rayse is dead, long live Taravangian! I can see, how Todium could trick Adolin into thinking that Taravangian doesn't want to fight this war and in the Duel, but want to make peace, as he now holds the Shard, but can't because he's forced to fight in the Duel. So he need Adolin to stand against his father and convince him to withdraw from it, surrender or release Todium from the contract. That would make Adolin willing contestant, but also a tricked one as well.

[bmcclure7]

15 hours ago, Adamkarma said:

@bmcclure7 I did read Warbreaker, but all bodies were "resurrected" after very short time from their death. not 10 years.

I highly doubt any of the lifeless soul were still in the cognitive realm at time they were awakened. And nightblood wasn't alive at all before his awakening. 

 

Were talk about awakening not resurrection.

[Toaster Retribution]

On 2023-01-08 at 10:34 PM, bmcclure7 said:

No actually we see her body clearly still intact in the oathbringer. 

Whoops, thats right. My bad, forgot that part of it.

On 2023-01-09 at 3:42 PM, alder24 said:

Adolin is unlikely as well, but now he seams to hate his father for what he's done, and that he wrote about it in his book. He is angry about it. He would not fight for Odium, but Rayse is dead, long live Taravangian! I can see, how Todium could trick Adolin into thinking that Taravangian doesn't want to fight this war and in the Duel, but want to make peace, as he now holds the Shard, but can't because he's forced to fight in the Duel. So he need Adolin to stand against his father and convince him to withdraw from it, surrender or release Todium from the contract. That would make Adolin willing contestant, but also a tricked one as well.

I think that would be out of character for Adolin to be honest. He is not dumb enough to be tricked into becoming Odiums Champion, not for Rayse and not for Taravangian. He knows that Mr. T ordered a whole bunch of deaths, including his fathers and (indirectly) his own. I also think that Adolin is way to honorable to betray everyone just out of anger at Dalinar. He would have to let Shallan, Kaladin, Renarin and Navani down, which is something he wouldn't do. He is not that single-minded, or that hateful. 

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I think that would be out of character for Adolin to be honest. He is not dumb enough to be tricked into becoming Odiums Champion, not for Rayse and not for Taravangian. He knows that Mr. T ordered a whole bunch of deaths, including his fathers and (indirectly) his own. I also think that Adolin is way to honorable to betray everyone just out of anger at Dalinar. He would have to let Shallan, Kaladin, Renarin and Navani down, which is something he wouldn't do. He is not that single-minded, or that hateful. 

I agree, he's very unlikely, but I said it would be to end the contest and make peace, but not out of hate. His emotions would only make him susceptible to manipulation, but he would do it in good faith, not out of anger. But that would be out of character, I agree.