The Diagram is cryptic on purpose (RoW spoilers)

[SpinningSky]

So I don't know if this is even a theory, as it doesn't really have consequences that might be proven right or wrong, but rather an interpretation that I really like of the Diagram storyline as presented.
Matter of fact, I was wondering how many people defaulted to this interpetation, and I was just slow not getting it right away, or if there's anything in the text that counters it.

We are told the Diagram is difficult to interpet because Taravangian was so smart on that faithful day that he had to trascend "linear note taking" and instead had to bunch information together in what became the Diagram.
What I think makes more sense, is instead that Taravangian's plan was to become Odium since that day, the diagram had to be so complex to hide his endgame from both other people and dumb Taravangian himself.
He needed to create the cult related to the Diagram to reach his goal, but its full understading was unattainable for them by design, if super smart Taravangian had wanted the Diagram to be understandable, he would have made it so, but hiding the endgame is vital for the plan itself to work.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

Yes, since the end of row, i think that is the implication of everything in the diagram. Everything was planned from day one. One line from diagram is ' you must become king of everything' which to me means taravodium. He knew exactly what he was doing with the diagram

[CognitiveShadow]

8 hours ago, SpinningSky said:

So I don't know if this is even a theory, as it doesn't really have consequences that might be proven right or wrong, but rather an interpretation that I really like of the Diagram storyline as presented.
Matter of fact, I was wondering how many people defaulted to this interpetation, and I was just slow not getting it right away, or if there's anything in the text that counters it.

We are told the Diagram is difficult to interpet because Taravangian was so smart on that faithful day that he had to trascend "linear note taking" and instead had to bunch information together in what became the Diagram.
What I think makes more sense, is instead that Taravangian's plan was to become Odium since that day, the diagram had to be so complex to hide his endgame from both other people and dumb Taravangian himself.
He needed to create the cult related to the Diagram to reach his goal, but its full understading was unattainable for them by design, if super smart Taravangian had wanted the Diagram to be understandable, he would have made it so, but hiding the endgame is vital for the plan itself to work.

This is cool- I hadn’t thought about this aspect of it but definitely a neat realization. Makes it even more impressive just how “smart” super smart taravangian was. Too bad the guy’s a total nutcase and evil dude or I’d be impressed haha

[Olmund]

I do think we run the risk of giving Transcendent Taravangian too much credit here -- there are plenty of things the diagram gets wrong, which is why the members of the (secret organization) Diagram notice that it becomes less reliable over time, and no matter how smart he was I don't think he had access to any information that would have let him understand shardhood well enough that he could concoct a specific method to kill a vessel and take his place. Szeth was in the diagram, but Nightblood was not (iirc), and certainly Szeth and Nightblood could not have been associated in the diagram since that didn't happen until later.

Anyway, I think Taravangian's initial interpretation of the line "you must be king of everything," is still most likely what his transcendent self was after -- he thought that if he was powerful enough he could have the bargaining power to make Odium leave the majority of Roshar alone after he was released to rampage across the Cosmere.

I also think that it was the unique strength of his "dumb" self (i.e., heightened emotions) that allowed him to kill Odium and take his place. That also seems to be a specific blindspot of his hyper-intelligent self (i.e., he doesn't understand or see the value of human emotion while hyper-intelligent), so it doesn't quite make sense that the intelligent self would bank on his emotions as a means to victory over Odium.

Cultivation, on the other hand, did have access to all of the information necessary to see the possibility of Taravangian killing Rayse, as well as the ability to mask that future from Rayse by introducing so much chaos into the mix -- so I think the credit for the kill does belong to her (even if it was a long shot that she wasn't confident would work), rather than Diagram Taravangian.

[Zapata]

On 12/5/2022 at 10:33 PM, Olmund said:

I do think we run the risk of giving Transcendent Taravangian too much credit here -- there are plenty of things the diagram gets wrong, which is why the members of the (secret organization) Diagram notice that it becomes less reliable over time, and no matter how smart he was I don't think he had access to any information that would have let him understand shardhood well enough that he could concoct a specific method to kill a vessel and take his place. Szeth was in the diagram, but Nightblood was not (iirc), and certainly Szeth and Nightblood could not have been associated in the diagram since that didn't happen until later.

Anyway, I think Taravangian's initial interpretation of the line "you must be king of everything," is still most likely what his transcendent self was after -- he thought that if he was powerful enough he could have the bargaining power to make Odium leave the majority of Roshar alone after he was released to rampage across the Cosmere.

I also think that it was the unique strength of his "dumb" self (i.e., heightened emotions) that allowed him to kill Odium and take his place. That also seems to be a specific blindspot of his hyper-intelligent self (i.e., he doesn't understand or see the value of human emotion while hyper-intelligent), so it doesn't quite make sense that the intelligent self would bank on his emotions as a means to victory over Odium.

Cultivation, on the other hand, did have access to all of the information necessary to see the possibility of Taravangian killing Rayse, as well as the ability to mask that future from Rayse by introducing so much chaos into the mix -- so I think the credit for the kill does belong to her (even if it was a long shot that she wasn't confident would work), rather than Diagram Taravangian.

It's possible, though, that the errors and omissions in the Diagram were intentional, at least until Taravangian made his deal with Rayse. Because they all led to that meeting, which was a success. The only question (imo) is whether the events of the following year were predicted by Transcendent Taravangian. Actually, there is the question of whether the machinations of Transcendent Taravangian are still active. But I do think that parts of the Diagram were purposely misleading.

[SpinningSky]

On 6/12/2022 at 4:33 AM, Olmund said:

I do think we run the risk of giving Transcendent Taravangian too much credit here -- there are plenty of things the diagram gets wrong, which is why the members of the (secret organization) Diagram notice that it becomes less reliable over time, and no matter how smart he was I don't think he had access to any information that would have let him understand shardhood well enough that he could concoct a specific method to kill a vessel and take his place. Szeth was in the diagram, but Nightblood was not (iirc), and certainly Szeth and Nightblood could not have been associated in the diagram since that didn't happen until later.

Anyway, I think Taravangian's initial interpretation of the line "you must be king of everything," is still most likely what his transcendent self was after -- he thought that if he was powerful enough he could have the bargaining power to make Odium leave the majority of Roshar alone after he was released to rampage across the Cosmere.

I also think that it was the unique strength of his "dumb" self (i.e., heightened emotions) that allowed him to kill Odium and take his place. That also seems to be a specific blindspot of his hyper-intelligent self (i.e., he doesn't understand or see the value of human emotion while hyper-intelligent), so it doesn't quite make sense that the intelligent self would bank on his emotions as a means to victory over Odium.

Cultivation, on the other hand, did have access to all of the information necessary to see the possibility of Taravangian killing Rayse, as well as the ability to mask that future from Rayse by introducing so much chaos into the mix -- so I think the credit for the kill does belong to her (even if it was a long shot that she wasn't confident would work), rather than Diagram Taravangian.

Even shards not being able to fully see the future is a big theme in SA, so I'm fully with you in saying that we shouldn't think that Smart-avangian could plan everything and knew exactly what was going to happen, indeed it got less reliable over time.
We shouldnt do that cause then we'd be accepting that Cultivation can just make humans that have what is basically more future sight that any shard, so again fully with you, we don't wanna break the Cosmere so soon
If he hoped to get somehow to Odium or just king, unless he tells us, wil always up to interpretation I guess, but he couldn't have absolute control over it.

My point is slightly different though, I'm saying that not the reliability, but the readibilty of the diagram was misleading on purpose.
He didn't know for a fact he was gonna become Odium, but he knew that to get there he needed to hide it from himself, and to create a cult around the Diagram to do his bidding around Roshar.

 

[MGershone]

This theory makes a lot of sense. It fits with the classic "knowing your destiny will mess up the future" trope. If dumb Taravangian knew exactly what he was supposed to do, he'd mess something up. Instead, by giving him a general direction and putting the right people in the right place, smart Taravangian certifies that his dumb self will unknowlingly stumble into the correct future. Y'know, like how we humans do it.

[rabidhexley]

On 12/5/2022 at 2:05 AM, SpinningSky said:

So I don't know if this is even a theory, as it doesn't really have consequences that might be proven right or wrong, but rather an interpretation that I really like of the Diagram storyline as presented.
Matter of fact, I was wondering how many people defaulted to this interpetation, and I was just slow not getting it right away, or if there's anything in the text that counters it.

We are told the Diagram is difficult to interpet because Taravangian was so smart on that faithful day that he had to trascend "linear note taking" and instead had to bunch information together in what became the Diagram.
What I think makes more sense, is instead that Taravangian's plan was to become Odium since that day, the diagram had to be so complex to hide his endgame from both other people and dumb Taravangian himself.
He needed to create the cult related to the Diagram to reach his goal, but its full understading was unattainable for them by design, if super smart Taravangian had wanted the Diagram to be understandable, he would have made it so, but hiding the endgame is vital for the plan itself to work.

Makes sense to me. I mean he was a super genius, why was he taking "notes" when the plan was already in his head? He's not writing them for himself. The Diagram wasn't Taravangian's plan, it was his means of carrying out the plan. He transcended human intelligence, and then immediately went to the job of making sure it happened, that was the Diagram.

 

If you're super-genius, future sight Taravangian then you know the instructions aren't the only important part of the equation, but the specific way that those notes are conveyed. You're trying to control for a specific outcome, including against the actions of your followers and potential future self (wouldn't be surprised if his intelligence wasn't actually random, and on that day he worked out the mechanics determining the pattern it followed). So everything about everything he did that day where he created the diagram was in service to ensuring a specific sequence of events played out.

 

You're not going to be so dumb that you make a crappy set of instructions. You're going to create the best set of instructions. One that not only tells them what to do, but controls their behavior in the ways you're able to anticipate. While also controlling the actions and obfuscating the awareness of those who aren't necessarily following your plan as well.

 

I think it's also important to know that these aren't just Taravangian's goals, but his goals on that specific day. We know that this was likely the day he was the most amoral, ruthless, and perhaps evil since his morality functions inversely to his intelligence. So the goal of the Diagram's author being to ascend to become an Evil God underneath everyone's nose tracks.

Edited December 20, 2022 by rabidhexley

[Treach]

My input isn’t a rebuttal, more of a note. I don’t think it’s plausible that Cultivation could make him smarter than herself and, as a shard, she also has access to Fortune. So under your assumption, the logical take is that Cultivation pushed him toward this specific end. We also see indication that she gave him dumb days specifically to trick Odium. 
 

Quote

Storms … Odium could be tricked. By dumb Taravangian.

I think the most interesting thing about smart Taravangian is that emotionally he is the opposite of Odium. Odium is passion, and smart Taravangian has none. 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Treach

[SpinningSky]

13 hours ago, rabidhexley said:

(wouldn't be surprised if his intelligence wasn't actually random, and on that day he worked out the mechanics determining the pattern it followed). 

I really like this idea, but I'm afraid it starts to fall into the mistake of giving him too much credit, at the end of the day he didn't have perfect future sight and that's important in the books. But I really like at least the idea of him figuring out he needed to put dumb Taravangian in the right conditions, and that in the future there would be more chances of him being dumb

10 hours ago, Treach said:

I think the most interesting thing about smart Taravangian is that emotionally he is the opposite of Odium. Odium is passion, and smart Taravangian has none. 

I don't think that's right though, smart taravangian is very passionate about what he does, just not empathic\compassionate. Odium is deeply self centered, doesn't care what happens to other shards if he gets more power

[rabidhexley]

Quote

I really like this idea, but I'm afraid it starts to fall into the mistake of giving him too much credit, at the end of the day he didn't have perfect future sight and that's important in the books. But I really like at least the idea of him figuring out he needed to put dumb Taravangian in the right conditions, and that in the future there would be more chances of him being dumb

I mean there also does seem to be a pattern to his intelligence switches, as the averages change over time. As long as the pattern wasn't truly random, even if it was stupidly complex, transcendent intelligence would probably work it out. They had a significant number of data points at that time. There's also the trouble he could have ended up with if he had the wrong level of intelligence or disposition on the wrong day, like if he was a gibbering idiot on the day Szeth came to kill him.

 

I'd think I was giving him too much credit if things hadn't worked out the way they did. Ascending to Odium seems like the best possible outcome that could be conceived by "Peak Smart" Taravangian given what we know about his disposition, and even up until that point the Diagram's goal's were still mysterious and unclear. He was also selected by Cultivation, so he probably had the necessary capacity and information (that is to say, he was the right person for the job) at the right time to work out what was required. If the Diagram wasn't written the way it was things would have turned out differently, which wouldn't have been according to plan.

 

At the very least we do know that he had worked out the existence of the Shards, he even understood Odium's disposition since he makes a deal with it. He worked out the Everstorm and return of the Voidbringers (Jasnah did this too with mundane intelligence). He knew about Szeth and exactly what he was capable of. Some of the things we see on-screen in accordance with the Diagram are such long-shots that if everything wasn't going according to plan the Diagram would have gone completely off the mark years before the story started. Also, "letting the Voidbringers destroy the world while my one city is spared" just seems like a weaksauce goal for ruthless, absolutely unbridled pragmatism Smart Taravangian. 

 

The Diagram may have been "incorrect" any number of times, but the Diagram's job wasn't to inform anyone about the future or his plan. It was the means of controlling people to carry out the plan he cooked up, he didn't care whether or not they had the right information as long as they were doing the right things. If he really needed everyone who worked for him to fall off a cliff, and it was possible, he would have written whatever it took- right or wrong -in order to get them on that cliff in time for it to collapse.

 

I also think the fact that the Diagram exists at all is a bit of evidence this is the case as well. It's noted that on other occasions of extremely high intelligence he went out and tried to get things done, highly motivated to accomplish (too many) things while he had the intelligence to do so. But on his smartest day he writes this inscrutable text without communicating its meaning or goal to anybody? So inscrutable that even on his smartest days going forward he never works out what the Diagram is truly getting at. At that point he only had the a day to make his goals happen, if he was even remotely that intelligent he wouldn't have wasted a single second.

 

In terms of how smart he was I would hazard that he was likely about as smart as anyone could possibly be in the Cosmere, including Shards. Given the scope of his abilities on that day were limited to the mind, that seems within the capabilities of Cultivation's boon. And if anyone would have had the requisite information to make the required unseen connections, someone of his age, experience, and position would've been a good bet. The limit was that he only had a day to work with.

Edited December 21, 2022 by rabidhexley