Loophole in the contract

[alder24]

13 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Leras says himself that he exploited a loophole, but I admit, it comes extremely close to breaking his agreement with Ruin. The deal could probably be considered to have been broken by Vin, but since the shard wasn't fully integrated into her soul and she didn't survive anyway, that doesn't really matter.

Why would Vin attacking Ruin be recognised as breaking of a deal? This is not supported by anything, it's contradicted by books, WoB's and Annotations. What deal was there that was preventing Preservation from attacking Ruin? The thing that was preventing it was Preservation's Intent, equal powers that both had, and inexperienced in using that power to kill a Shard. The only deals there were between Preservation and Ruin was first one about settling together on Scadrial, and second one, more important one, creating Scadrial and allowing Ruin to destroy it. Preservation however broke the deal, didn't allow him to destroy the planet and imprisoned him. That caused Preservation to slowly diminish.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Vin Asks Ruin about Preservation

After this scene, perhaps you can see why I wanted so badly to spend some time with Vin and Ruin talking while she was imprisoned. I felt this was important enough that I was willing to stretch plausibility a tad to make it possible. (The spoiler in the chapter 54 annotation explains what I mean by that.)

The discussion of morality here is an important one, as I wanted Ruin and Preservation to represent forces, not moral poles. This is vital for various reasons in the underlying cosmology. If they represented poles, then that implied there could only be two like them. But, as they represent opposites, that leaves more room.

Preservation did betray Ruin. This brings us onto the shaky ground of the morality of lying to achieve a greater good. If as much were at stake as is here—the end of an entire world—then perhaps you'd betray someone too. (I love fantasy. Where else can you talk about the end of the world as a consequence of a betrayal and have it be literal?)

Ruin's consciousness—separate from his power—isn't a particularly nice being. But you can't much blame him, as there's very little that is left of the mind that once was. The force of Ruin has pretty well molded the mind to fit with the force's intent.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Jan. 26, 2010)

 

Spoiler

defiantburrito

The Hero of Ages prophecy: For a while it seemed to me that the prophecy was entirely bogus (invented by Ruin as a lure), but it ended up coming true! So my question is, where did the prophecy actually come from? Was it Atium in some form, or something else entirely?

Brandon Sanderson

The religions of Scadrial had a lot of ups and downs. First, you have Ruin and Preservation working together as two gods. Then you have the schism between them, and Preservation betraying Ruin, with Preservation adapting the religion to his own needs and trying to hide in it practices that will keep Ruin imprisoned as long as possible, and then give a chance to defeat him when he escapes. (As Preservation assumes he'll be dead by then.) Finally, you have Ruin corrupting the religions with his influence, trying to figure out what he can twist to his own needs--while missing the hidden layers that Preservation left.

Phantine

Were there a lot of Hero of Ages who ascended beyond the ones we directly saw in the books?

Brandon Sanderson

I wouldn't say so.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 6, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Eighty-One - Part Four

Vin's Sacrifice

Killing Elend and leaving Vin alive would have been, in my opinion, more tragic than what happened. As I establish in a little bit, there is an afterlife in this cosmology. Better for them both to die and to be together.

There were only two ways that Ruin could have died in this book. The first would be to have him give up his life as Preservation did. I don't think that was very likely.

The second way is the one I've been subtly pushing the reader toward from the very beginning of the novel. Ruin and Preservation are opposites. Equal, particularly while Ruin doesn't have access to the chunk of his power trapped in the atium. The only way, then, for him to be killed would be for Preservation to smash his power against that of Ruin and destroy both of them. It's a form of balance. Either you block and stop each other, warding each other away, or you overlap and destroy one another.

This was the role Preservation chose Vin to play all those years ago. As she surmises, he needed someone to do what he could not. He had been too corrupted by his power, and could not destroy Ruin. If Vin had held the power for millennia as Preservation had before her, then she too would have lost the ability to destroy Ruin.

It needed to be someone fresh to the power, still separate enough from it to be able to kill Ruin. Preservation knew that if he did not sacrifice himself and let someone else take up the power, then Ruin would eventually win and the world would end. Imprisoning Ruin was always only intended to be a delaying tactic.

The delay was so that the power could find a new person to bear it. Someone who could do what Preservation could not.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (June 10, 2010)

 

46 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

The important point is that Odium doesn't know that Hoid is violating the agreements.  He probably suspects it, but unless he can know for certain, he can't take direct action against Hoid without causing harm to himself.   That's why Hoid couldn't keep the bubble going during the chapter The Dog and the Dragon.  Hoid says Odium will notice if he keeps it going too long, and admits to violating their agreement which exposes him to Odium's direct action.  In the chapter Terms, Odium says Honor's restriction prevent him from using his powers on most individuals.  And in one of the interludes, Jah-Anat tells Taravangian that he is no longer exempt from Odium's actions, I assume because he made a deal to work for Odium.  

The thing preventing Odium from striking Hoid is the deal that Shards made after Shattering - most likely. Odium however settled on Roshar, and Honor and Cultivation allowed him to, which most likely binded him in a way. And then there was Oathpact that might influence him as well. I don't think it's specifically to prevent him from harming, it's to prevent him from influencing anyone on Roshar. Odium isn't able to talk to people on Roshar unless they are in Everstorm, or they have a very strong connection with him. I would argue this is the Honor's restriction you're talking about, they are generally to prevent him from acting at all. Hoid is a separate case, as he is binded by different rules.

Yes, Taravangian is another different example, he made a deal to work for Odium, and if he betrayed him, this would put him "in Odium's power" or "exposed to Odium's attack".

55 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Considering that Rayse knew full well that Hoid was acting against him (he had proof in the contract Dalinar tried to get Odium to agree to, if nothing else)

He didn't. Dalinar never confirmed that Hoid drafted the contract, so all Odium had were speculations. Hoid might have beed involved in making it, but depending on the level of involvement, it might prevent Odium from acknowledging that Hoid is breaking agreements.

[offer]

38 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Odium however settled on Roshar, and Honor and Cultivation allowed him to, which most likely binded him in a way

I don`t beleive Honor and Cultivation allowed Odium to come to Roshar, they simply couldn`t stop him.

If a shard could have stopped another shard from comming Odium would not have been able to attack Dominion and Devotion.

 

The original agrremant beetwen the shards not to share planets was not really a "binding sharding agrreemant" so Odium had no problem breaking it.

Quote

Nameless36

All the Shards basically agreed not to settle on the same planet. Six of them - that we know of - immediately, basically broke that.

Brandon Sanderson

So... they did not make an oath to it. There was a suggestion made... and perhaps the people who made the suggestion did not understand that, if you want the Shards to do something, you need an actual Oath. And they did not get one.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)

 

[alder24]

22 minutes ago, offer said:

I don`t beleive Honor and Cultivation allowed Odium to come to Roshar, they simply couldn`t stop him.

If a shard could have stopped another shard from comming Odium would not have been able to attack Dominion and Devotion.

 

The original agrremant beetwen the shards not to share planets was not really a "binding sharding agrreemant" so Odium had no problem breaking it.

WoBs are suggesting something different:

Spoiler

Questioner

It’s really heavily implied in the first Oathbringer letter that the Shards made a pact not to settle near each other. Given that a full half of the Shards ended up doing that, what is the cost for them breaking that oath? You implied earlier that there’s always a cost for Hoid, for taking his protections.

Brandon Sanderson

The wording of those things allows them to agree together, but it also gives them a little bit of power over one another, and you’ve seen the side effects of that on the planets where it’s happened. It has not gone well for any of them, if you kind of run the numbers on that. But the wording of it allows two, later on, to say, "Okay, we both agree." (If one said no and one said yes, then they were in trouble.) This should imply to you that Odium did get permission, as well.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

And apparently the agreement/rules Shards made, while it wasn't an oath, was still important and binding to some degree, as Odium used is as justification for splintering Dominion and Devotion

Spoiler

Paladin Brewer

Out of all the Shards, why does Odium go for Devotion and Dominion?

Brandon Sanderson

He targets people with two kinds of ideas. Number one, he can argue they're breaking the rules they set out. And two, people he thinks are a good match for him, or a challenge, or a danger.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

And he also had some kind of help from Autonomy that might help him face against 2 Shards:

Spoiler

Moridin997 (paraphrased)

Did Bavadin in any way help Odium splinter Dominion and Devotion?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Uhh...

Moridin997 (paraphrased)

(sensing an incoming RAFO): In any way...

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Uhh... Yes... Yes, you could say that...

Lisbon signing (Nov. 7, 2016)

So while Odium was attacking 2 Shards is dangerous, he had some kind of advantage over them:

Spoiler

Khyrindor

Odium seems to have a bad track record when it comes to killing Shards. He was wounded versus Ambition, and he's trapped on Roshar. Yet, he's credited in killing Devotion and Dominion. My question is: was Autonomy significantly involved and would Odium have been able to do it on his own and still be okay to--

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. It is dangerous to attack a Shard with one Shard. Let's say that. And a wise Shard would try to avoid that confrontation unless there are specific reasons they think they would have an advantage.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

And settling on a system is very different from attacking a Shard. When attacking a Shard you throw your power against him, so it doesn't matter that he didn't agree to let you visit his planet, you are still punching him. Settling on the other hand is not an aggressive action. You're going into the place where other Shards are using their powers, it's nice to ask if you can join them, otherwise they can use their power against you, using the same justification that Odium used to splinter Aona and Skai.

[offer]

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

WoBs are suggesting something different:

  Hide contents

Questioner

It’s really heavily implied in the first Oathbringer letter that the Shards made a pact not to settle near each other. Given that a full half of the Shards ended up doing that, what is the cost for them breaking that oath? You implied earlier that there’s always a cost for Hoid, for taking his protections.

Brandon Sanderson

The wording of those things allows them to agree together, but it also gives them a little bit of power over one another, and you’ve seen the side effects of that on the planets where it’s happened. It has not gone well for any of them, if you kind of run the numbers on that. But the wording of it allows two, later on, to say, "Okay, we both agree." (If one said no and one said yes, then they were in trouble.) This should imply to you that Odium did get permission, as well.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

And apparently the agreement/rules Shards made, while it wasn't an oath, was still important and binding to some degree, as Odium used is as justification for splintering Dominion and Devotion

  Reveal hidden contents

Paladin Brewer

Out of all the Shards, why does Odium go for Devotion and Dominion?

Brandon Sanderson

He targets people with two kinds of ideas. Number one, he can argue they're breaking the rules they set out. And two, people he thinks are a good match for him, or a challenge, or a danger.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

And he also had some kind of help from Autonomy that might help him face against 2 Shards:

  Reveal hidden contents

Moridin997 (paraphrased)

Did Bavadin in any way help Odium splinter Dominion and Devotion?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Uhh...

Moridin997 (paraphrased)

(sensing an incoming RAFO): In any way...

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Uhh... Yes... Yes, you could say that...

Lisbon signing (Nov. 7, 2016)

So while Odium was attacking 2 Shards is dangerous, he had some kind of advantage over them:

  Reveal hidden contents

Khyrindor

Odium seems to have a bad track record when it comes to killing Shards. He was wounded versus Ambition, and he's trapped on Roshar. Yet, he's credited in killing Devotion and Dominion. My question is: was Autonomy significantly involved and would Odium have been able to do it on his own and still be okay to--

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. It is dangerous to attack a Shard with one Shard. Let's say that. And a wise Shard would try to avoid that confrontation unless there are specific reasons they think they would have an advantage.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

And settling on a system is very different from attacking a Shard. When attacking a Shard you throw your power against him, so it doesn't matter that he didn't agree to let you visit his planet, you are still punching him. Settling on the other hand is not an aggressive action. You're going into the place where other Shards are using their powers, it's nice to ask if you can join them, otherwise they can use their power against you, using the same justification that Odium used to splinter Aona and Skai.

Those two WoBs does seem contradictory.

The one you quated is later and Brandon seems to specifaclly say that odium got permission so it is probably the correct one. 

Now I am starting thinking why did honor and cultivation would give such a permission.

[Letryx13]

38 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Why would Vin attacking Ruin be recognised as breaking of a deal? This is not supported by anything, it's contradicted by books, WoB's and Annotations. What deal was there that was preventing Preservation from attacking Ruin? The thing that was preventing it was Preservation's Intent, equal powers that both had, and inexperienced in using that power to kill a Shard. The only deals there were between Preservation and Ruin was first one about settling together on Scadrial, and second one, more important one, creating Scadrial and allowing Ruin to destroy it. Preservation however broke the deal, didn't allow him to destroy the planet and imprisoned him. That caused Preservation to slowly diminish.

Preservation double crossed Ruin, to be sure, but that doesn't mean he broke the deal.  Exploiting a loophole would still be a double cross, or at least could be interpreted that way.  And if he had broken the deal, wouldn't Ruin have been able to kill him immediately, or right after he escaped the prison? I always thought it was Preservation's unraveling mind, the part of him that he sacrificed, that allowed for Ruin to slowly kill him.  The two may be equal, but if one of the two has less of a mind controlling it, it's going to lose.  But I see your point.  We don't know exactly how long it takes to kill a Shard if their soul's have been damaged. And the way Preservation's mind unraveled sounds similar to what the Storm Father has described what Honor was like in the end.

As for why Vin's actions would go against the deal, I commented before, all Preservation really agreed to was not to permanently stop Ruin. Leras may have made the deal, but as he himself says, all he really did was slow Ruin down.  Vin is the one that stopped him permanently, which went against the deal.

57 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The thing preventing Odium from striking Hoid is the deal that Shards made after Shattering - most likely. Odium however settled on Roshar, and Honor and Cultivation allowed him to, which most likely binded him in a way. And then there was Oathpact that might influence him as well. I don't think it's specifically to prevent him from harming, it's to prevent him from influencing anyone on Roshar. Odium isn't able to talk to people on Roshar unless they are in Everstorm, or they have a very strong connection with him. I would argue this is the Honor's restriction you're talking about, they are generally to prevent him from acting at all. Hoid is a separate case, as he is binded by different rules.

It's hard to say exactly which deal is protecting Hoid, but I'd guess one that involved himself and Odium, such as the one after the Shattering as you suggest, and also Honor's restrictions.  But if Hoid is caught violating his agreement with Odium, that almost certainly invalidates Hoid from any form of protection against Odium from either deal. I can't say for sure that it cancel's out Honor's protection of Hoid, but it seems very likely.   But if Odium were prevented from influencing anyone on Roshar, then he wouldn't have been able to influence Dalinar, Amaram, Moash, the singers, or any of the humans he won over to his side.  Sure, the unmade played a part with Dalinar, but Odium himself said that he'd been speaking to both Dalinar and Amaram for years.  Odium may not be capable of drawing someone into a spiritual realm vision without the everstorm or a strong connection, but subtle influence is a well established tactic for him.  Likely, he has to resort to that to get around Honor's restrictions against harming people.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

He didn't. Dalinar never confirmed that Hoid drafted the contract, so all Odium had were speculations. Hoid might have beed involved in making it, but depending on the level of involvement, it might prevent Odium from acknowledging that Hoid is breaking agreements.

Well, he did include his name on the contract.  I don't know if that means he signed it or what, but it's pretty solid confirmation.

Regardless, I didn't mean I think helping with the contract or anything along those lines is a violation of their agreement. We don't know exactly what they've agreed to, so  it's impossible to know for sure what Hoid is allowed to do. But either way, he probably did know for a fact that Hoid was his enemy.  

53 minutes ago, offer said:

I don`t beleive Honor and Cultivation allowed Odium to come to Roshar, they simply couldn`t stop him.

If a shard could have stopped another shard from comming Odium would not have been able to attack Dominion and Devotion.

Honor and Cultivation were likely much more united than Devotion and Dominion. Those two were not as strongly opposed as Preservation and Ruin, but they weren't exactly getting along either.  Honor probably allowed Odium to come to save the humans travelling to Roshar, in exchange for certain promises from Odium.

[offer]

1 minute ago, Letryx13 said:

Honor and Cultivation were likely much more united than Devotion and Dominion. Those two were not as strongly opposed as Preservation and Ruin, but they weren't exactly getting along either.  Honor probably allowed Odium to come to save the humans travelling to Roshar, in exchange for certain promises from Odium.

Odium came to the system (and apperantly H&C gave permission) before the human needed to travel to Roshar since the destruction of Ashyn was with Odium`s influence.

[alder24]

11 minutes ago, offer said:

Now I am starting thinking why did honor and cultivation would give such a permission.

I think they most likely wanted to bind him to prevent further damage. But that's a good question.

7 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

And if he had broken the deal, wouldn't Ruin have been able to kill him immediately, or right after he escaped the prison? 

No because part of Ruin's power was locked away as Atium on the planet, and more importantly Ruin's mind (not power) was locked away. Ruin couldn't act, but he did slowly damage Preservation until Leres died. 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Fifty-Five

Elend Sees the Mist Spirit

Elend really does have a lot of faith in Vin, even if he doesn't worship her. He ascribes an almost supernatural power to her. And, I can kind of see why he would. In these books, Vin's almost less of a character and more a force. Like Ruin and Preservation, in a way.

Regardless, this chapter is about Elend giving up—then finding his hope again. I bring the mist spirit back here for a final appearance, but I wanted to be careful not to have it give too much information to Elend. Not because I don't want the information itself to get out, but because the mist spirit hasn't been a presence in this book, and so I haven't foreshadowed it enough. Therefore, if it simply showed up and gave a bunch of answers, I think that would feel cheap to the reader.

The mist spirit is, as the next epigraph explains, the remnants of Preservation's mind. I don't delve into it too much in this book, even the epigraphs, but Preservation's consciousness is indeed separate from his power. However, his consciousness itself has a limited power. And that is what he used to bind Ruin.

That did not weaken his power, which still protects the world. Instead, it cost him his mind, leaving behind only a faint shadow—like the mists' memory of Preservation, far removed from what he had once been.

That consciousness attached to Preservation—like the one attached to Ruin—is a part of Adonalsium, which will eventually be explained. Suffice it to say that in a pinch, Preservation could draw upon the power of his own mind and use it to imprison Ruin. This was why he was able to pull of the trick, as Ruin wasn't expecting it. He might have anticipated an attack using Preservation's power, but not his mind—not knowing what burning his own mind would do.

That is why Preservation's cage captured Ruin's own mind, but not his power.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Jan. 19, 2010)

And to add to this, all of their powers were already used to oppose one another.

Spoiler

Zas

So what's up with the regeneration issue? With Shards? Because they only have so much power they can access at a certain time, but yet they still have more energy. So how does that work? Is it just they have so much power they can use at any given time?

Brandon Sanderson

What are you talking about? Like which shards?

Zas

Ruin and Preservation. Since we know the most about them.

Brandon Sanderson

Ruin and Preservation were a specific instance, because almost all their energy was thrown into resisting each other. Keep that in mind. Even after Preservation was only a shadow, basically all of it was "Let's keep Ruin from destroying the world." So they were polar opposites. Set in balance. But slightly unbalanced in a couple of ways, that eventually, that slight imbalance... They are a special case, because of that.

Zas

So then why are they hesitant to directly fuel Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

Why are they hesitant to? What do you mean by directly fuel Allomancy?

Zas

You mention in the Hero of Ages Q&A that they can directly fuel Allomancy, like Vin does with Elend, but it requires expending their energy in a way they are hesitant to do.

Brandon Sanderson

Because it imbalances them more. Does that make sense? Like, if you are putting your energy here, rather than fighting the other force, you give them an edge somewhere else by trying to gain an edge here. And you have to make sure that's really worth it. Imagine a chess game. Is it worth sacrificing my pawn here to expose myself over here?

Orem signing (Sept. 22, 2012)

 

11 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

We don't know exactly how long it takes to kill a Shard

We don't but given the example of both Preservation and Honor, it can take even thousands of years.

17 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

As for why Vin's actions would go against the deal, I commented before, all Preservation really agreed to was not to permanently stop Ruin. Leras may have made the deal, but as he himself says, all he really did was slow Ruin down.  Vin is the one that stopped him permanently, which went against the deal.

I don't agree with this. WoBs and books say clearly that Preservation imprisoned Ruin with intent of keeping him forever from destroying Scadrial.

19 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

But if Odium were prevented from influencing anyone on Roshar, then he wouldn't have been able to influence Dalinar, Amaram, Moash, the singers, or any of the humans he won over to his side. 

I should have said direct influence. Odium is very limited in that regard. Subtle influence would work like Ruin was doing it - he was bound and restricted but still managed to slip past some words and ideas. The same would be with Odium, without Desolation he is mostly limited, but even with it, he can’t do anything he wants, not just kill or hurt, but because Honor and Cultivation most likely both oppose his action or there was a deal that he had to follow. It’s not just about hurting people, we haven’t seen any Shard directly killing someone. Maybe there are rules that forbid Shards from doing so, or maybe they just don't have to, don't want to or don't care.

[Letryx13]

2 hours ago, offer said:

Odium came to the system (and apperantly H&C gave permission) before the human needed to travel to Roshar since the destruction of Ashyn was with Odium`s influence.

Coming to the system and coming to Roshar itself are two different things.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

No because part of Ruin's power was locked away as Atium on the planet, and more importantly Ruin's mind (not power) was locked away. Ruin couldn't act, but he did slowly damage Preservation until Leres died. 

 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

We don't but given the example of both Preservation and Honor, it can take even thousands of years.

Honor's not a good comparison for this. We know Odium killed Honor, but we have no idea how he did it.  If Honor broke some oath that wounded him enough for Odium to kill him, what was it?  That can't possibly be the only way to defeat a shard. In fact, we know for certain it's not because of what happened with Rayse. There's likely some other way to wound a shard that we don't know about yet.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I don't agree with this. WoBs and books say clearly that Preservation imprisoned Ruin with intent of keeping him forever from destroying Scadrial.

That's an interesting one because Leras specifically tells Kelsier that he never stopped Ruin, just slowed him down.  This is conflicting information between the story and WoB. I guess we just go with whichever one we like better.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I should have said direct influence. Odium is very limited in that regard. Subtle influence would work like Ruin was doing it - he was bound and restricted but still managed to slip past some words and ideas. The same would be with Odium, without Desolation he is mostly limited, but even with it, he can’t do anything he wants, not just kill or hurt, but because Honor and Cultivation most likely both oppose his action or there was a deal that he had to follow. It’s not just about hurting people, we haven’t seen any Shard directly killing someone. Maybe there are rules that forbid Shards from doing so, or maybe they just don't have to, don't want to or don't care.

Odium is able to empower people, which seems like direct influence, considering he made a group of them immortal, and provides voidlight to fuel their abilities.  Taking away peoples emotions is probably direct influence too, which we know he did to Moash and tried to use to tempt Dalinar.  Granted, he doesn't seem able to do these things without their consent in some cases, but still. Besides if there were rules preventing shards from directly killing people, then Ruin wouldn't have been able to destroy Scadrial.  

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Coming to the system and coming to Roshar itself are two different things.

No. They are binded to the planetary system, not just the planet. 

5 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Honor's not a good comparison for this. We know Odium killed Honor, but we have no idea how he did it.  If Honor broke some oath that wounded him enough for Odium to kill him, what was it?  That can't possibly be the only way to defeat a shard. In fact, we know for certain it's not because of what happened with Rayse. There's likely some other way to wound a shard that we don't know about yet.

You were talking about the time that it takes to kill a Shard, and Honor was dying for a long time. It's a great example.

Spoiler

Questioner

Dalinar's visions are the memories of Honor, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Yes, they are things specifically created by Honor...

Questioner

Does that mean that the Recreance happened before Honor's death... since Dalinar sees it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. But Honor's death, like Preservation's death, is a protracted event.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

We don't know how was he killed. He didn't have to break any Oath to be killed, Odium at that point killed 3 Shards so he knew how to do this and could use his powers in a way that Honor couldn't. Odium might target Roshar because it was settled by two Shards, but Honor didn't consider it a violation of the given word, probably because Cultivation agreed to it with him.

Spoiler

Mason Wheeler

One of the Letters in Oathbringer suggests that the Shards had a pact to all go their separate ways. And some of them held to it and some of them didn't?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Mason Wheeler

Out of all of them, how is it possible that one of the ones that didn't is the one whose nature is to obsessively keep your word at all costs?

Brandon Sanderson

He would argue that he kept his word.

Mason Wheeler

Okay, so loophole.

Brandon Sanderson

He wouldn't even call it a loophole.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

16 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

That's an interesting one because Leras specifically tells Kelsier that he never stopped Ruin, just slowed him down.  This is conflicting information between the story and WoB. I guess we just go with whichever one we like better.

Keep in mind that at that point Leras is just a shadow of what was left of his mind. Sometimes he can't even remember if there was any plan made by him, and he forgot what was the plan. He didn't know that Vin had to release Ruin in order for his plan to succeed. Leras didn't know what was his intention when he imprisoned Ruin, he most likely just thinks that way because of what is happening with Ruin. He's not reliable anymore when he can't fully recall the event we're talking about.

21 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Odium is able to empower people, which seems like direct influence, considering he made a group of them immortal, and provides voidlight to fuel their abilities.  Taking away peoples emotions is probably direct influence too, which we know he did to Moash and tried to use to tempt Dalinar.  Granted, he doesn't seem able to do these things without their consent in some cases, but still. Besides if there were rules preventing shards from directly killing people, then Ruin wouldn't have been able to destroy Scadrial.  

I can't put in words what I have in mind. His influence over Roshar is limited, he can't act freely. There are forces opposing him. And while he can empower people, but those are only the one that agree to it, that he has a strong connection to. He couldn't send visions to Kaladin because he didn't have a connection to him, he had to use Moash connection to it. That kind of direct influence I'm talking about. He needs a strong connection to be able to act.

Moash is most likely under the influence of an Unmade. But even if it's just Odium, Odium doesn't have full grip on him, as a simple Radiant like Renarin can push Odium away. That's very limiting for Odium.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 2/10/2023 at 0:22 PM, alder24 said:

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Fifty-Five

Elend Sees the Mist Spirit

Elend really does have a lot of faith in Vin, even if he doesn't worship her. He ascribes an almost supernatural power to her. And, I can kind of see why he would. In these books, Vin's almost less of a character and more a force. Like Ruin and Preservation, in a way.

Regardless, this chapter is about Elend giving up—then finding his hope again. I bring the mist spirit back here for a final appearance, but I wanted to be careful not to have it give too much information to Elend. Not because I don't want the information itself to get out, but because the mist spirit hasn't been a presence in this book, and so I haven't foreshadowed it enough. Therefore, if it simply showed up and gave a bunch of answers, I think that would feel cheap to the reader.

The mist spirit is, as the next epigraph explains, the remnants of Preservation's mind. I don't delve into it too much in this book, even the epigraphs, but Preservation's consciousness is indeed separate from his power. However, his consciousness itself has a limited power. And that is what he used to bind Ruin.

That did not weaken his power, which still protects the world. Instead, it cost him his mind, leaving behind only a faint shadow—like the mists' memory of Preservation, far removed from what he had once been.

That consciousness attached to Preservation—like the one attached to Ruin—is a part of Adonalsium, which will eventually be explained. Suffice it to say that in a pinch, Preservation could draw upon the power of his own mind and use it to imprison Ruin. This was why he was able to pull of the trick, as Ruin wasn't expecting it. He might have anticipated an attack using Preservation's power, but not his mind—not knowing what burning his own mind would do.

That is why Preservation's cage captured Ruin's own mind, but not his power.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Jan. 19, 2010)

 

 

What is meant by burning here... is burning usually capitalized or not in the Mistborn books, or more specifically with the Lerasium?

[alder24]

1 minute ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

What is meant by burning here... is burning usually capitalized or not in the Mistborn books, or more specifically with the Lerasium?

It's about Preservation using his mind to create the prison for Ruin, which slowly uses its up, diminishing Preservation's mind. This kind of burning, not metal one.

[Diomedes]

On 1.12.2022 at 6:06 PM, The_Milkgod said:

I was just reading a post that mentioned the loophole in the contract. I haven’t thought of it since finishing RoW other than reading some posts around the baby champion theory. So does anyone have any ideas what it could be? The baby champion theory comes to mind but anything else?

Guys there is another loophole you have not thought about.

Dalinar speaks of containing Odium which makes me think about the cold war. As we all know  the USA and SU not being at war with each other did not lead to world peace.

1. Neutral countries like Shinovar (and the Honorblades..), are not mentioned in the contract. Conquering them is off limits.

2. The contract speaks of forbidding Odium to work against D. his allies and their kingdoms. But Odium is allowed to defend his allies.

Therefore: if say a majority of Alethi princes rebelled, crowned their own, by rule of conquest legitimate king and went over to Odium on their own accord, Odium is allowed to defend them.  (Remember House Sadeas, Queen Aesudan, Amaram, Moash, which were under Odium`s influence but you get my point). Todium can thereby win back the territories ceded to Dalinar in the contract in case he loses.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Diomedes

[The Stick]

I think I may have found the solution after scanning RoW and the Coppermind for hours. As near as I can figure out, Dalinar will fight as his own champion, although there is an argument for Kaladin. He may end up swearing the Fifth Ideal to somehow have to protect Dalinar. I think he will die, so there is a chance of this. What is more likely, in my opinion, lies in Szeth. We know he is not the most mentally stable of characters. We also know he swore the Ideal to obey and protect Dalinar. We know Ishar claims that the Shin were worshipping false gods in the form of the Unmade. We know Szeth is crusading through Shinovar to rid the Shin of false leaders. We also know there is a Death Rattle talking about Dai-Gonarthis. He is apparently taking somebody's sorrow. Since he is one of the few Unmade not yet seen, I think he was the one influencing the Shin. So my theory ultimately comes down to Odium selecting one of the Shin leaders as his champion. Perhaps the one who declared Szeth Truthless to begin with. The fight will begin and something will endanger Dalinar. Szeth will see the champion and lose it, trying to protect Dalinar at all costs. He will use Nightblood to murder the champion, perhaps viewing the champion as evil. This will quite clearly void the contract. This is breaking an oath potentially hurting or killing the Stormfather. This releases TaravOdium making him a Cosmere-wide issue. The death of the Stormfather would mean the endless weeping and an end to conventional Stormlight. In this case, I do not know exactly what happens to Dalinar. Szeth returns to Shinovar one last time, seeing the often mentioned distinct white cliffs of his homeland fall away into the flooding of Roshar. He can hear the child crying (maybe one he killed) ending era one.

[+Wax]

I don’t see Kaladin being the champion. It’s a fight to the death and Kaladin won’t kill. Brandon changed the ending of WoR to take away the killing blow by Kaladin.

I think there is a Dawnshard arc still to be explored there.

The loophole I thought was Odium trying to win everything in 10 days on Roshar. So, at worst he’s giving up Alethkar and Herdaz. That sounds impractical though, so that’s not it either. The “El” guy who wrote about the last 10 days might be the Odium champion?

[The Stick]

I do not think the conquering is the loophole. It is too small scale and Odium stands little to gain. El will not be the Champion. He had his rhythms taken away because he disobeyed Odium.

[Letryx13]

On 3/16/2023 at 8:43 PM, Diomedes said:

Guys there is another loophole you have not thought about.

Dalinar speaks of containing Odium which makes me think about the cold war. As we all know  the USA and SU not being at war with each other did not lead to world peace.

1. Neutral countries like Shinovar (and the Honorblades..), are not mentioned in the contract. Conquering them is off limits.

2. The contract speaks of forbidding Odium to work against D. his allies and their kingdoms. But Odium is allowed to defend his allies.

Therefore: if say a majority of Alethi princes rebelled, crowned their own, by rule of conquest legitimate king and went over to Odium on their own accord, Odium is allowed to defend them.  (Remember House Sadeas, Queen Aesudan, Amaram, Moash, which were under Odium`s influence but you get my point). Todium can thereby win back the territories ceded to Dalinar in the contract in case he loses.

I’ve had similar ideas. I think these are likely to be plot points in book 5. There have been at least some political elements in every Stormlight book so far, and I suspect this is how politics will play into the story in book 5. Working to persuade neutral nations to join one side or another and possibly preventing defectors on each side. 

On 3/18/2023 at 10:42 PM, The Stick said:

I think I may have found the solution after scanning RoW and the Coppermind for hours. As near as I can figure out, Dalinar will fight as his own champion, although there is an argument for Kaladin. He may end up swearing the Fifth Ideal to somehow have to protect Dalinar. I think he will die, so there is a chance of this. What is more likely, in my opinion, lies in Szeth. We know he is not the most mentally stable of characters. We also know he swore the Ideal to obey and protect Dalinar. We know Ishar claims that the Shin were worshipping false gods in the form of the Unmade. We know Szeth is crusading through Shinovar to rid the Shin of false leaders. We also know there is a Death Rattle talking about Dai-Gonarthis. He is apparently taking somebody's sorrow. Since he is one of the few Unmade not yet seen, I think he was the one influencing the Shin. So my theory ultimately comes down to Odium selecting one of the Shin leaders as his champion. Perhaps the one who declared Szeth Truthless to begin with. The fight will begin and something will endanger Dalinar. Szeth will see the champion and lose it, trying to protect Dalinar at all costs. He will use Nightblood to murder the champion, perhaps viewing the champion as evil. This will quite clearly void the contract. This is breaking an oath potentially hurting or killing the Stormfather. This releases TaravOdium making him a Cosmere-wide issue. The death of the Stormfather would mean the endless weeping and an end to conventional Stormlight. In this case, I do not know exactly what happens to Dalinar. Szeth returns to Shinovar one last time, seeing the often mentioned distinct white cliffs of his homeland fall away into the flooding of Roshar. He can hear the child crying (maybe one he killed) ending era one.

I’m not sure it’s wise to trust Ishar as a source of information. Sanderson has stated we should never trust anything the Heralds say in their unstable states. 
 

And I don’t think Szeth would intervene in the contest of champions. There’s a chance he may be one of the champions, but he’s sworn to obey Dalinar, so if he is told to keep out of it, he will. And his ideals are about laws, which probably extends to respecting the rules of such a duel. 
 

On 3/27/2023 at 3:32 PM, Wax said:

I don’t see Kaladin being the champion. It’s a fight to the death and Kaladin won’t kill. Brandon changed the ending of WoR to take away the killing blow by Kaladin.

I think there is a Dawnshard arc still to be explored there.

The loophole I thought was Odium trying to win everything in 10 days on Roshar. So, at worst he’s giving up Alethkar and Herdaz. That sounds impractical though, so that’s not it either. The “El” guy who wrote about the last 10 days might be the Odium champion?

Kaladin kills when he has to, although since he became a Radiant, he’s mostly killed only singers. 
 

I agree that Rysn’s dawnshard is likely to play a role. It’s too powerful an element to remain unused, and there was a novella about it. That’s too much attention to be for nothing. 
 

On 3/27/2023 at 3:48 PM, The Stick said:

I do not think the conquering is the loophole. It is too small scale and Odium stands little to gain. El will not be the Champion. He had his rhythms taken away because he disobeyed Odium.

I agree that El will probably not be the champion. Something this significant to the story will almost certainly involve characters who have been important from early on in the story. That’s why a lot of people think it will end up as a duel between Kaladin and Moash, myself included.

I’ve posted this theory before, but I think conquering is the key to the loophole, indirectly. If Odium loses control of Alethkar or Herdaz, then he won’t be able to return them to Dalinar if Dalinar’s champion wins. Which would force him to break his word to Dalinar, placing him in Dalinar’s power. The only thing I’m not sure about is who would conquer Herdaz (likely the easier to seize) and how. 

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I’ve posted this theory before, but I think conquering is the key to the loophole, indirectly. If Odium loses control of Alethkar or Herdaz, then he won’t be able to return them to Dalinar if Dalinar’s champion wins. Which would force him to break his word to Dalinar, placing him in Dalinar’s power. The only thing I’m not sure about is who would conquer Herdaz (likely the easier to seize) and how. 

They have 10 days. The invasion in Marat took weeks/months to conclude, and they were facing small Odium forces with superior numbers, logistics and with the full force of a multinational coalition. Most of the Coalition army was still there when Dalinar made a deal with Odium, there is no way for them to return to Urithiru in 10 days, not to mention attack Althekar or Herdaz. Using Oathgates is out of the question, so the army would have to march there from the Shattered Plains, which alone would take more than a month.

And even if an exhausted army out of supplies miraculously managed to get to and conquer both Althekar and Herdaz in 10 days, if Odium forces control at least 1 village in every country, Odium will still have something to return, fulfilling the contract.

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

They have 10 days. The invasion in Marat took weeks/months to conclude, and they were facing small Odium forces with superior numbers, logistics and with the full force of a multinational coalition. Most of the Coalition army was still there when Dalinar made a deal with Odium, there is no way for them to return to Urithiru in 10 days, not to mention attack Althekar or Herdaz. Using Oathgates is out of the question, so the army would have to march there from the Shattered Plains, which alone would take more than a month.

This is one of the reasons why I think it needs to be a third party, such as the Ghostbloods or some other of world presence on Roshar, to take either Alethkar or Herdaz. And it wouldn’t need to be the entire country. Alethkar wasn’t truly considered fallen until Odium’s forces seized the capital. The reverse should apply here, to both Herdaz and Alethkar. Besides, they only need to get one of the two to force Odium to default. And while it’s true that it took time for Odium to gather his forces in Kholinar, the city fell in less than a day. We don’t know what forces are in the capital of Herdaz, the easier of the two to take, but it’s entirely possible something similar could happen. Especially if Taravangian’s attention is focused elsewhere, which isn’t unlikely, since Rayse himself said that Herdaz was insignificant. 
 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

And even if an exhausted army out of supplies miraculously managed to get to and conquer both Althekar and Herdaz in 10 days, if Odium forces control at least 1 village in every country, Odium will still have something to return, fulfilling the contract.

Odium is supposed to return both Herdaz and Alethkar, along with their entire populations. If anything, looking at the agreement from a technical persepct, the opposite of what you said is true. If they can keep Odium from returning even a single village’s worth of people to Dalinar, then he hasn’t kept his end of the deal, if Dalinar wins the contest. But I admit, that seems way too much of a technicality. It’s why I think it’s more likely that the capital of one or possibly both countries will be seized. 

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

This is one of the reasons why I think it needs to be a third party, such as the Ghostbloods or some other of world presence on Roshar, to take either Alethkar or Herdaz. And it wouldn’t need to be the entire country. Alethkar wasn’t truly considered fallen until Odium’s forces seized the capital. The reverse should apply here, to both Herdaz and Alethkar.

You can't conquer a country the size of Australia in 10 days. Even a modern military facing no resistance won't do it. It's just not possible.

And no, they don't need to take only the capital. Alethkar felt far earlier than Kholinar, Dalinar just didn't want to acknowledge that. He hoped that if they manage to get the the city, they could reconquest Alethkar from its center (which would still take months to do). And siege of Kholinar last weeks before the final assault took place. Getting to Kholinar with any army within 10 days is impossible.

7 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Besides, they only need to get one of the two to force Odium to default. And while it’s true that it took time for Odium to gather his forces in Kholinar, the city fell in less than a day. We don’t know what forces are in the capital of Herdaz, the easier of the two to take, but it’s entirely possible something similar could happen

The Coalition can't get to Herdaz. They don't have access to any of the northern Oathgates, and Odium forces have full control over northern oceans. Any other third party (Ghiostbloods have no army) would face even bigger problems. Getting to Herdaz is even harder than to Kholinar, and the Coalition no longer has Jah Keved on their side that borders Herdaz. Not to mention that Herdraz has dozens of small islands along the coast, if Odium has control over at least one of those, he still can fulfill the contract.

10 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Odium is supposed to return both Herdaz and Alethkar, along with their entire populations. If anything, looking at the agreement from a technical persepct, the opposite of what you said is true. If they can keep Odium from returning even a single village’s worth of people to Dalinar, then he hasn’t kept his end of the deal, if Dalinar wins the contest. But I admit, that seems way too much of a technicality. It’s why I think it’s more likely that the capital of one or possibly both countries will be seized. 

The deal must be kept to its spirit, not just to the letter. Dalinar still controls a small portion of southern Alethkar, so if what you are saying is true, Odium can't fulfill the deal right now, and would clarify that when talking to Dalinar. So no, it's not like that.

Capital is just one city, and has a small fraction of the population of the entire country. It doesn't count as the whole country.

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

You can't conquer a country the size of Australia in 10 days. Even a modern military facing no resistance won't do it. It's just not possible.

You can take a capital city that quickly.  Besides, if it truly is a third party, such as the ghostbloods, then we have no way of knowing their forces or what position they might be in. 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

And no, they don't need to take only the capital. Alethkar felt far earlier than Kholinar, Dalinar just didn't want to acknowledge that. He hoped that if they manage to get the the city, they could reconquest Alethkar from its center (which would still take months to do). And siege of Kholinar last weeks before the final assault took place. Getting to Kholinar with any army within 10 days is impossible.

I already said that it took time to get Odium's forces to Kholinar.  But Kaladin's team were just trying to secure the capital city and get their forces there to help defend it.  The singers might have been occupying part of the country, but Alethkar didn't truly fall until the capital did. 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

The Coalition can't get to Herdaz. They don't have access to any of the northern Oathgates, and Odium forces have full control over northern oceans. Any other third party (Ghiostbloods have no army) would face even bigger problems. Getting to Herdaz is even harder than to Kholinar, and the Coalition no longer has Jah Keved on their side that borders Herdaz. Not to mention that Herdraz has dozens of small islands along the coast, if Odium has control over at least one of those, he still can fulfill the contract.

We have absolutely no idea what forces of the Ghostbloods are on Roshar, so there's no way to say whether they could pull that off or not.  And the saying on Roshar is that shard bearers can't hold ground, not that they can't take ground.  Depending on the forces holding the Herdazian capital, a small force of radiants might be able to take the city, especially if they brought the Mink along to cause a rebellion.  In truth, that seems the likeliest scenario in my mind.  If Odium didn't have enough forces nearby, which isn't unlikely considering he considers the country unimportant, then that situation is flipped, and he would be the one unable to reconquer the Herdazian capital.  Yes, he controls two countries bordering Herdaz, but we don't know how his forces are stationed.  He'd have to rely on Heavenly ones, who might not be as willing to follow Odium as they used to be.  Can't say for sure how most fuzed will react to recent discoveries, but still.

As for the Herdazian islands, Odium has to return the country's entire population, in tact.  Not half the occupants, not some of the occupants, all of their occupants.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

The deal must be kept to its spirit, not just to the letter. Dalinar still controls a small portion of southern Alethkar, so if what you are saying is true, Odium can't fulfill the deal right now, and would clarify that when talking to Dalinar. So no, it's not like that.

Rayse was the one who held to contracts in spirit.  Taravangian seems to be more letter of the law.  He even wanted to have a written contract when he made his deal with Rayse, and exploited a very technical loophole with Hoid.  But let's say you're correct, can you honestly say that you've returned the entire country and its occupants (even in spirit) if you haven't returned the capital or its people?  If you haven't given back the core city of the entire country, have you given back the country?

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Capital is just one city, and has a small fraction of the population of the entire country. It doesn't count as the whole country.

That's not the point. The point is, the agreement was for the entire country and its occupants.  If you don't have the capital, you don't have the entire country, do you?

[alder24]

28 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

You can take a capital city that quickly.  Besides, if it truly is a third party, such as the ghostbloods, then we have no way of knowing their forces or what position they might be in. 

You can't get to Kholinar or Herdaz's capital, siege it, storm its walls and all of that within 10 day with an army marching by land from the Shattered Plains (the army which currently is stationed near the border of Tukar, weeks away from the nearest Oathgate) being your only way to those cities. 

Ghostbloods are a secret organization, they want to monopolize investiture across Cosmere, not conquer Roshar, they don't have an army capable of capturing a heavily fortified city with Surgebinders in it. Ghostbloods literally has no Surgebinders in their ranks.

31 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

I already said that it took time to get Odium's forces to Kholinar.  But Kaladin's team were just trying to secure the capital city and get their forces there to help defend it.  The singers might have been occupying part of the country, but Alethkar didn't truly fall until the capital did. 

Moash traveled through several captured villages and cities before he got to besieged Kholinar. Venli as well. Singers actively quickly overran the whole Alethkar, which was even said by Dalinar before the mission to Kholinar even began. Alethkar fell, Khilinar was the only last major city still resisting the Singers (except the southern coast).

But the capital isn't whole Alethkar. Capturing one city won't magically despawn all Odium's forces from the whole Alethkar. They will still occupy the majority of Alethkar, and Odium would still have Alethkar to give up according to the contract.

37 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

We have absolutely no idea what forces of the Ghostbloods are on Roshar, so there's no way to say whether they could pull that off or not.

They are a secret organization, they operate from the shadows. Secret organizations don't have a large standing army, as that defies the secrecy of their operations.

40 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

especially if they brought the Mink along to cause a rebellion.

He's in Tukar. HOW?

40 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

If Odium didn't have enough forces nearby, which isn't unlikely considering he considers the country unimportant, then that situation is flipped, and he would be the one unable to reconquer the Herdazian capital.

That's wrong thinking here. Odium forces struggle a lot with defeating Herdazian partisans, he has to keep significantly larger forces to ensure all partisans are defeated, no local population will resist his rule, and to keep the region from rebelling against his rule. Herdaz capital might have more (or the same amount of) soldiers per 1000 population than Kholinar, because Kholinar barely resisted, while Herdaz fought for a year. That's how occupation works. You don't conquer the land and then move out all your troops from that land. The more the local population resists your occupation, the more forces you need to keep there. Examples - Napoleon and Spain.

48 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Rayse was the one who held to contracts in spirit. Taravangian seems to be more letter of the law. 

It doesn't work that way. Hoid remarked, after Dalinar made a deal, that it's unlikely that Rayse will misinterpret the terms of the contract. This means that how one interpret the terms influences a way in which the contract needs to be fulfilled.

And Taravantian literally spotted the loophole the moment he looked at the terms. That's not "to the letter of the law" behavior.

56 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

If you haven't given back the core city of the entire country, have you given back the country?

What is a "core city"? There is no such a thing as a "core city" unless the country is a city state. 

59 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

That's not the point. The point is, the agreement was for the entire country and its occupants.  If you don't have the capital, you don't have the entire country, do you?

Odium doesn't have an entire Alethkar under his control right now... What you are saying doesn't make any sense. 

And here is the contract:

Quote

He took a deep breath. “Final terms are these: A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces. If I win that contest, you will remain bound to the system—but you will return Alethkar and Herdaz to me, with all of their occupants intact. You will vow to cease hostilities and maintain the peace, not working against my allies or our kingdoms in any way.”

“Agreed,” Odium said. “But if I win, I keep everything I’ve won—including your homeland. I still remain bound to this system, and will still cease hostilities as you said above. But I will have your soul. To serve me, immortal. Will you do this? Because I agree to these terms.”

“And I,” Dalinar whispered. “I agree to these terms.”

“It is done.”

There is no "whole" before Alethkar and Herdaz, nor "all of" or "entire", so this excludes the lands of these countries that Odium doesn't occupy right now, and won't occupy in the future. Therefore as long as Odium holds any piece of Alethkar and Herdaz, he can return them with all of their citizens intact (all of the people living in the occupied lands). Capturing a capital isn't the same as capturing a country, and never will be.

 

And just to show you how little one city means in terms of population - English population in 1500 - 2.6 mil people, Londyn population in 1500 - 50000 people. That's 2% of the whole of England. It doesn't matter. Alethkar sustains 100000 active soldiers, in medieval Europe typically a country can sustain an army size of around 1% of its total population. So Alethkar would have around 10 mil population. Kholinar would have around 200000 people based on that. A lot, but not that much compared to the whole nation. But Alethi are a militarized society, and they can afford more, like 2%, so that's 5 mil total population, and 100000 in Kholinar. So tell me, how capturing a single city will bring the entire country under Coalition control, when 98% of its citizens are still under Odium's occupation?

[Torero]

This whole political landscape and options explored here are absolutely fascinating. I am interested in how pretty deep and revealing Realmatic revelations in recent books will play out against the backdrop of all those political machinations. I am confident that Brandon will be able to pull it off, however, I would also set the level of difficulty here at 9-10 out of 10 to be able to weave it all together harmoniously--pun intended.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Torero

[Weaver of Lights]

In the contract between Odium and Dalinar, no year is specified.

Quote

On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour.

Assuming Todium is not bound by the spirit of the law, this loophole could be exploited.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Lightweaver2

[alder24]

13 hours ago, Lightweaver2 said:

In the contract between Odium and Dalinar, no year is specified.

Assuming Todium is not bound by the spirit of the law, this loophole could be exploited.

Good catch, but I would find it very anticlimactic if Todium just did what Sadeas did in WoR. Plus Dalinar and Rayse did specify earlier that the duel will take place in 10 days and this might be extended into the contract itself.

[Weaver of Lights]

21 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Good catch, but I would find it very anticlimactic if Todium just did what Sadeas did in WoR. Plus Dalinar and Rayse did specify earlier that the duel will take place in 10 days and this might be extended into the contract itself.

I agree, it would be anticlimactic, but Sanderson does some very unconventional things sometimes. As for the earlier specifications by Raise and Dalinar, I don’t believe they would carry over if we are going by letter of the law, it’s not in the contract. Once again, I’m assuming that Todium goes by letter of the law, not spirit of the law.