Loophole in the contract

[Elder]

38 minutes ago, TheOtherDave said:

I can't decide if https://wob.coppermind.net/events/432-youtube-livestream-13/#e14016 suggests that you're wrong or if it's irrelevant.

Irrelevant.  Sounds like he was begging off the question to avoid spoilers.  Just my take though.

[theSurgeOfPhysics]

The loophole is if there's a tie.

Wit wrote the original terms to keep Odium bound to the Rosharan system, but Odium refused because of what it would entail. Wit's contract had a win-or-lose idea. But then he tells Jasnah about his card games on Nalthis:

Quote

“Ah, but you see, I was rigging the games. So I did know the future—as much as Odium does, anyway. I shouldn’t have been able to lose. Yet I did. … Someone else rigged the game so that no matter what move I made, I could not win. The game was a tie, something I hadn’t anticipated. I’d focused my cheating on making certain I didn’t lose, but I’d bet on myself winning.”

RoW Chapter 99

Wit's contract had no terms for a tie, and even though Dalinar changed the terms, the terms are the same: Either Dalinar wins, or Odium wins. But what if there is a tie? There is no clarification for this outcome, so the contract becomes void.

Thoughts?

[slavagh]

22 hours ago, TheOtherDave said:

I can't decide if https://wob.coppermind.net/events/432-youtube-livestream-13/#e14016 suggests that you're wrong or if it's irrelevant.

I think Adolin can fight for Odium only if he is manipulated. I don't believe in the 'evil' Adolin arc. 'Confused, manipulated, immediately regretting' Adolin arc is more probable. So his name will still be a safe name to use for a child or pet.

[Elder]

4 hours ago, theSurgeOfPhysics said:

The loophole is if there's a tie.

Wit wrote the original terms to keep Odium bound to the Rosharan system, but Odium refused because of what it would entail. Wit's contract had a win-or-lose idea. But then he tells Jasnah about his card games on Nalthis:

Wit's contract had no terms for a tie, and even though Dalinar changed the terms, the terms are the same: Either Dalinar wins, or Odium wins. But what if there is a tie? There is no clarification for this outcome, so the contract becomes void.

Thoughts?

Nice catch.  That could do nicely.  

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, theSurgeOfPhysics said:

The loophole is if there's a tie.

Wit wrote the original terms to keep Odium bound to the Rosharan system, but Odium refused because of what it would entail. Wit's contract had a win-or-lose idea. But then he tells Jasnah about his card games on Nalthis:

Wit's contract had no terms for a tie, and even though Dalinar changed the terms, the terms are the same: Either Dalinar wins, or Odium wins. But what if there is a tie? There is no clarification for this outcome, so the contract becomes void.

Thoughts?

A tie would require both combatants to die in the same instant. And given how spiritual realm, and Odium and what not, that means the exact same Planck instant.

Now, while that is technically possible....

[Elder]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

A tie would require both combatants to die in the same instant. And given how spiritual realm, and Odium and what not, that means the exact same Planck instant.

Now, while that is technically possible....

Or neither die.

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, Elder said:

Or neither die.

Then the contest isn't over, and Odium is still bound to the bargain.

[theSurgeOfPhysics]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Then the contest isn't over, and Odium is still bound to the bargain.

Or they both refuse to kill each other. And remember Odium is freaking out because he can’t find a champion (mentioned how he lost Kaladin as his champion), so let’s see if he slips up. 

[Frustration]

38 minutes ago, theSurgeOfPhysics said:

Or they both refuse to kill each other.

That still doesn't end the contest.

[Elder]

Based on the Epilogue at least, it seems to me that Odium’s game is going to be based on the champion he chooses.

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

A tie would require both combatants to die in the same instant. And given how spiritual realm, and Odium and what not, that means the exact same Planck instant.

Now, while that is technically possible....

I don't think it has to be like this. They worded the rules "who wins" not "who dies first" and "fight for life and death". Those words mean someone has to leave the fight alive. If by the end of the contest both champions are dead, it's a tie. Of course both deaths still have to be close in time, but not to that close.  

Then if both champions meet at the tower but withdraw from the fight or abandon it - well, they met, had free will, they maybe even fought, but left together - the rules were followed at first, but this is something not included in the rules and thus it can make a contract a void. Or it could mean that both sides violated the rules and both sides would be under the other's power - Dalinar can force Odium to leave Roshar alone, while Odium can force Daliner to free him from the Roshar system.

[Letryx13]

The contest is supposed to be a fight to the death, although even Dalinar isn't exactly sure what the fight will be. 

My problem with a tie as the outcome is that it doesn't free Odium from the restrictions placed on him by Honor. Sure, it invalidates the contest of champions, which means the war can continue and Odium doesn't have to return Alethkar and Herdaz, but that doesn't mean Dalinar broke his end of the deal.  The only way Odium gets out of Honor's restrictions are if Dalinar either intentionally frees him, or he goes against their deal.  Even if the contest of champions is invalidated, unless Dalniar or Odium broke their word in the process, they're right back where they started before they agreed to a contest. 

Todium is trying to find a way out of Honor's restriction, while Rayse was content, for the time being, with being able to send out his forces to other worlds.  I think it's safe to say that whatever Taravangian is planning, it's something that includes freeing himself from Roshar in the outcome.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think it has to be like this. They worded the rules "who wins" not "who dies first" and "fight for life and death". Those words mean someone has to leave the fight alive. If by the end of the contest both champions are dead, it's a tie. Of course both deaths still have to be close in time, but not to that close.

That would mean that there is a time in which one champion is alive and the other isn't, thus fulfilling the contract.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Then if both champions meet at the tower but withdraw from the fight or abandon it - well, they met, had free will, they maybe even fought, but left together - the rules were followed at first, but this is something not included in the rules and thus it can make a contract a void. Or it could mean that both sides violated the rules and both sides would be under the other's power - Dalinar can force Odium to leave Roshar alone, while Odium can force Daliner to free him from the Roshar system.

It would be violating the contract rather than leaving it void, but again they would have to do it at the same time.

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That would mean that there is a time in which one champion is alive and the other isn't, thus fulfilling the contract.

That's not how tying in duels work. A "fight for life and death" means that one of the contestants must leave the fight alive, on his own, and can't die shortly after due to the wound he gets during the duel. 

If both contestants fight, mortally wound each other, then for the next few minutes they fight more and collapse due to their wounds, lose consciousness and after a few more minutes die because of the wounds, who wins? Nobody, because nobody left the duel alive. It doesn't matter that one died 1 minute earlier that the other, when they both die without leaving the fighting area.

Odium himself said to Taravangian that he is binded by the spirit of a contract, not by the letter.

28 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It would be violating the contract rather than leaving it void, but again they would have to do it at the same time.

No, not again, they both just have to decide that they won't fight each other. That's it. Because it's a fight for life and death, someone must die first for a side to win. The timing of withdrawing from the duel is not important here. It only must happen after the duel starts.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

That's not how tying in duels work. A "fight for life and death" means that one of the contestants must leave the fight alive, on his own, and can't die shortly after due to the wound he gets during the duel. 

If both contestants fight, mortally wound each other, then for the next few minutes they fight more and collapse due to their wounds, lose consciousness and after a few more minutes die because of the wounds, who wins? Nobody, because nobody left the duel alive. It doesn't matter that one died 1 minute earlier that the other, when they both die without leaving the fighting area.

Odium himself said to Taravangian that he is binded by the spirit of a contract, not by the letter.

Yeah, and the spirit says that the one who died first lost.

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No, not again, they both just have to decide that they won't fight each other. That's it. Because it's a fight for life and death, someone must die first for a side to win. The timing of withdrawing from the duel is not important here. It only must happen after the duel starts.

If one side withdraws their side is in violation immediately, and the other side is thus no longer bound by the contract and thus cannot violate it.

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yeah, and the spirit says that the one who died first lost.

It says the opposite. You are weirdly fixieted on this idea. It's not a video game, there are no health bars. Winning doesn't mean killing first, it means not dying. I won't try to convince you otherwise anymore.

[Frustration]

I'm not sure why you seem so focused on survival. The goal is to kill the other guy before he can kill you, whether you die in the process is irrelevant so long as he dies first.

[alder24]

27 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I'm not sure why you seem so focused on survival. The goal is to kill the other guy before he can kill you, whether you die in the process is irrelevant so long as he dies first.

Because it's a fight for life and death, they're fighting to stay alive. 

Edited February 8, 2023 by alder24

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Because it's a fight for life and death, they're fighting to stay alive. 

You're using the letter of the agreement, to say that the spirit of the agreement says something?

There are no twists of language that get Odium what he wants.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Frustration

[The_Milkgod]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You're using the letter of the agreement, to say that the spirit of the agreement says something?

There are no twists of language that get Odium what he wants.

This is the stupidest argument I’ve seen on this forum. If both champions quite they break the contract. If both die no one wins, contract goes void.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, The_Milkgod said:

both champions quite they break the contract

You can't break a voided contract.

And thus upon the first person breaking the contract the other party is no longer bound.

5 minutes ago, The_Milkgod said:

If both die no one wins, contract goes void.

Why on earth would that be the case?

If there is so much as a Planck instant in which one champion is dead and the other is not the living party wins and the results cannot be altered.

[The_Milkgod]

Quote

And thus upon the first person breaking the contract the other party is no longer bound.

If they choose to break at the same time then they both broke the contract.

Quote

If there is so much as a Planck instant in which one champion is dead and the other is not the living party wins and the results cannot be altered.

If they both die then neither champion really won. 
 

gotta say you picked a fitting username.

[offer]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You can't break a voided contract.

And thus upon the first person breaking the contract the other party is no longer bound.

Why on earth would that be the case?

If there is so much as a Planck instant in which one champion is dead and the other is not the living party wins and the results cannot be altered.

When you imagine winning a life or death fight the first thing you imagine is survivng after the battle so this is the spirit of the agreemant.

 

[Frustration]

Just now, offer said:

When you imagine winning a life or death fight the first thing you imagine is survivng after the battle so this is the spirit of the agreemant.

No, I imagine being alive when the other person is dead.

I killed better than they did, and I survived better than they did. And thus, I won.

Whether I succumb to my wounds afterwards is not relevant to me winning or losing.

[The_Milkgod]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

No, I imagine being alive when the other person is dead.

I killed better than they did, and I survived better than they did. And thus, I won.

Whether I succumb to my wounds afterwards is not relevant to me winning or losing.

As others have said. The spirit of the agreement is that one champion comes out alive. Not which dies first.