Jump to content

On the Soul Forgery of Ashravan


Firesong

Recommended Posts

I read through Emperor's Soul again and found myself confused on exactly how Ashravan's Forgery worked. Given the fact that his Soul should have passed into the Beyond by that 100 day period, even relatively Invested people have been pulled into it long before such a long period, so how exactly was his mind and body still functioning (albeit to a limited degree) and what was there to be able to Forge?

Can't exactly change something which is no longer there. We also know Forgery doesn't use much Investiture, so surely it wasn't enough to create sapience à la Nightblood. But from what I understand, maybe it was this, as it mentioned it making a new soul. So did it just draw on far more Dor than a normal Forgery, enough to create a temporary Soul?

Was this answered anywhere in WoBs? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a really good point.

I assume that this question is along the line of reasoning that the stamp Ashraven receives every day is what fuels his cognitive shadow/ soul.

 

I wasn't aware that Forging something used very little investiture. I kind of just assumed that the stamp was like a hole into the spiritual realm that fed him investiture and provided sentience like a biproduct. 

 

Spoiler

I see Ashraven as being partway between a Seon that is sentient investiture and a Returned that is still shaped by their past bodies. I assumed that Soul Forging was versatile enough to achieve this. Although, I would like to hear other theories!

 

Here is a related WoB:

argel1200

Regarding Ashraven... Would it be correct to say that memories are part of the mind/CR aspect? Assuming so, was Shai forging a new CR aspect to in-effect reconnect Ashraven's Soul (SR) with his body (PR)? I was thinking this could explain how she got his mannerisms correct -- i.e. that those are timeless SR aspects, so she didn't really get those right but instead, the SR connection was re-established?

Brandon Sanderson

Regarding Ashrovan: The problem here is that I don't want to get too deep into these sorts of things, for reasons that I want aspects of the magic to remain subject to discussion for a while yet. Suffice it to say that when we talk about Returned and lifeless in Warbreaker sequels, you'll have more ammunition for understanding what happened in Emperor's Soul.

Faera

Ashraven, Ashrovan...it's Ashravan damnit. He didn't step up to become emperor just so you could get his name wrong. Gaotona is ashamed of you all DX

Brandon Sanderson

In the original language, the a/o is very similar. I always get them mixed up in the English, like when I try to write aㅂsound from Korean in English.

Either that, or I just couldn't decide which one I wanted when writing the book, giving Peter a headache as he had to go back and standardize them all. :)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So even after his Ashravans Soul/mind/whatever(too big a can of worms) went to The Beyond there shouldve still been his Spiritweb hanging around in the Spiritual Realm, which essentially denotes who someone is, what they can do and who/where they have Connected to and with and what they have gone through. Ashravans Spiritweb shouldve had a... "mark" because of the attack/his death and iirc Shais forgery just rewrote his Spiritweb so that he survived the attack.

The Spiritweb is still there and they have his healed working body, the only other part they need is a "mind" which is what the Essence Mark essentially does/is with the help if Investiture.

Also It was said(iirc) that after so long Ashravan might not need to be stamped anymore, and i think that is because after feeding a little source of Investiture(the Soulstamps Investiture) into an essentially empty vessel with a "program"(Ashravans Soulstamp/Essence Mark itself) over time some of the Investiture kinda stuck(like with a lifeless) and essentially gained its own sentience/sapience(?) based on Ashravan's Soul/Stamp

Edited by Eternal Khol
Expanded a little
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My understanding, and it's been a very long time since I last read Emperors Soul, was that he didnt actual "die", rather he was rendered Brain Dead by the head injury and their non-spiritual form of Healing (ReSealing) could not repair the damage (because you have to know every cell and vein and interaction, and even we dont know that much about the brain). So by realmic standards he didnt Die so much as receive a debilitating Injury with no way to restore from the Spiritual Idea "backup".

As far as What the Seal is realmically doing in that case, I think it does two things: it provides the realmic bridge to his existing Spiritweb and Cogntive Aspect which his grey matter can no longer provide (reminiscent of the Kandra/mistwraith "blockage"), and it uses Dor to Pull those aspects out of their true alignment (subject to snap-back, etc just like Feruchemical Age).  The "ideal" Stamp from an energy use perspective would not actually have changed anything, it would have woken him up exactly the same and that would have required the least amount of Investiture.  The additional Investiture a stamp takes the goes toward maintaining an Alteration from the "ideal" in the same way Feruchemcial Age pulls against the person's true State more and more as it deviates further from the actual Truth.

Another thing to consider: We now know that the Dor is going to cause significant Time Dilation on Sel relative to the rest of the "objective" Cosmere. But we do not know which direction it skews.  On top of that excess Investiture will lengthen the Moving Beyond time window.  So it's possible that the Dor could significantly lengthen that window both by realmic proximity and/or by Time Dilation, and the 100 Day window is a matter of minutes elsewhere.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ookla the Wandering said:

My understanding, and it's been a very long time since I last read Emperors Soul, was that he didnt actual "die", rather he was rendered Brain Dead by the head injury and their non-spiritual form of Healing (ReSealing) could not repair the damage (because you have to know every cell and vein and interaction, and even we dont know that much about the brain). So by realmic standards he didnt Die so much as receive a debilitating Injury with no way to restore from the Spiritual Idea "backup".

As far as What the Seal is realmically doing in that case, I think it does two things: it provides the realmic bridge to his existing Spiritweb and Cogntive Aspect which his grey matter can no longer provide (reminiscent of the Kandra/mistwraith "blockage"), and it uses Dor to Pull those aspects out of their true alignment (subject to snap-back, etc just like Feruchemical Age).  The "ideal" Stamp from an energy use perspective would not actually have changed anything, it would have woken him up exactly the same and that would have required the least amount of Investiture.  The additional Investiture a stamp takes the goes toward maintaining an Alteration from the "ideal" in the same way Feruchemcial Age pulls against the person's true State more and more as it deviates further from the actual Truth.

Another thing to consider: We now know that the Dor is going to cause significant Time Dilation on Sel relative to the rest of the "objective" Cosmere. But we do not know which direction it skews.  On top of that excess Investiture will lengthen the Moving Beyond time window.  So it's possible that the Dor could significantly lengthen that window both by realmic proximity and/or by Time Dilation, and the 100 Day window is a matter of minutes elsewhere.  

 

52 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

He wasn't dead, his mind was just wounded. The soulstamps worked for him the same way a Kandra's spike works for them.

That would make sense, I kinda interpreted it as him dying and the Resealing managing to heal it and reactivate the bodily processes. But without the soul there due to it passing away into the Beyond. 

But these interpretations would make a lot more sense, and work with what we see. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...