Wits instant noodles Posted December 9, 2022 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2022 2 minutes ago, Ookla the platypus said: as was previously discussed, the horses were weaker there. horses are weaker but still able to run significantly faster than a human even if it is weaker than the ones on other planets. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted December 9, 2022 Report Share Posted December 9, 2022 1 minute ago, Ookla the platypus said: the way I see it improved is equivalent to increased because if you have improved capability you are able to do more. as was previously discussed, the horses were weaker there. without shardblade mistborn wins, I agree. but with it, I don't think it's very much of a competition. sorry for the short reply, I'm in school right now and the teacher is coming to check how my group is doing Do school yo! I would love some WoB giving us anything on the horses being slower... even if they are slower they are still horses... all things are relative when crossing one world to another so we need a basis for comparison. I don't remember anything stating that horses are faster on Roshar and slower on Scadrial. I know there is the Ryshadium which are above the standard horse but I believe that a typical horse on Roshar would equate to the people there making their measurements to the people on Scadrial making their measurements and us here on earth (which is what Scadrial is closest to). So Scadrial being closest to earth and being set as the unit 1.0 then for maths purposes Scadrial horse is to those people what a horse is to us. Roshar looking at themselves and their isolated world that horse is a horse is a horse to them (but we as readers know that Roshars gravitational pull is 0.7 to that 1.0 of scadrial which is basically the earth of the cosmere). Again, I don't have the WoB or book references for why a horse is less than a horse on scadrial but for the sake of trying to stay consistent using earthly units of measure as a 1:1 ratio with Scadrial I think it is fair to say that pewterarms can push themselves to a 36-40mph sprint and maintain it until the pewter runs out and leaves them dead... (always carry enough pewter to sleep on kids). Again take that same mistborn onto roshar and their effective and relative strength bonuses shoot through the roof because of gravity differences which are canonized with sources on the coppermind. As far as blades how long has the mistborn been on Roshar? The Ghostbloods are proof enough that a mistborn can aquire a shardblade via previously defeating a shardbearer. This may take away from the 3rd ideal vs mistborn or 4th ideal vs mistborn arguments but say for a moment that a very powerful cognitive shadow has a set of plate and a blade and sends a mistborn to do his will on Roshar with them. How does that mistborn fare against the radiant of 3rd ideal with a dead shardblade of his own. Or a 4th ideal windrunner with a dead blade and dead plate of his own? I would say with and without atium but I do believe that atium 1ups a shard advantage everytime (atium with a deadblade would beat plate and blade on the windrunner and atium without a blade beats windrunner with a blade). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted December 9, 2022 Report Share Posted December 9, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Look at Eddie Hall being 6'3" and Lamar being 5'2". If numbers like these are the peak of physical performance. The current WR for deadlift is Hafthor and the guy stands right at 6'9" 204kg was only able to lift 1kg more than Eddie hall. So if you have 2 players at their peak... one from Roshar at 6'9" and the other at 5'2" there starts to become a big difference. 501 is bigger than 305. Its not bigger than 610 or 915. Stormlight doesn't double your strength and we don't have anything quantifiable by which to say it does X to strength (nor anything saying it improves strength at all). All we have people going off of is that szeth dropped Dalinar with a single blow breaking ribs with a punch to the side. I would say the most notable stormlight + strength we have seen is Rock and the shardbow. But wait there is this WoB which pretty well dispells the idea that it was the stormlight doing it for him. Reveal hidden contents NotBurtReynolds Can Stormlight give enough extra strength that a humanoid could use a Shardbow w/out Plate? Brandon Sanderson Not normally. General Signed Books 2018 (Feb. 21, 2018) According to the coppermind Rock is just shy of 7 feet and he is large to the Alethi. I'm gonna go on a limb and say by the description Hafthor is as close to Rock as we are gonna get... especially being among the strongest men in the world. If we had the 132 lb Lamar from the previous example on pewter he would be outperforming Hafthor by 21% already on a normal burn and that increases to 182%, while flaring, of the amount lifted by a man who weighs nearly 450lbs. Take those weights and put them into the gravitational hodgepodge and apparent weight it gets even more disgusting. (Sorry for switching between KG and LBS so much I will try to keep it consistent for the rest of this). Both parties have pulled off their world records on their respective planet with Roshar being roughly 0.7 gravity to Scadrial 1.0 gravity according to coppermind (30% lighter from scadrial to Roshar and 42.86% heavier from roshar to scadrial) On Roshar we have Hafthor at 6'9" weighing in at 204kg and makes that worlds largest lift of 501kg. Take him to Scadrial. We have Hafthor at 6'9" weighing in at 291.4kg and his muscles adjusted for life on Roshar see the same mass of plates but he can't pick it up. In fact he has to take plates off to make up for the gravitation differences here. He can only lift 70% of what that same stack of plates was on his home planet. 350.7kg. Lamar the 5'2" 60kg boy wonder picks up 305kg on his native Scadrial. (Still lower than that of the mountain.) But on Roshar the maths turn the man into a myth and a legend where he is a 42kg man asking the natives to toss more plates onto his tray and is able to lift an incredible 435.7kg. Now you have stormlight not adding actual strength but pewter doubling and, when flared, trippling it... you have this 5'2" man lifting 871.4kg (74% more weight than Hafthor on his own planet) on a normal pewter burn and 1307 (160% more weight than Hafthor) on a flare of pewter. Given Brandon has felt it worth noting exactly how much pewter increases strength and given than Brandon has not chosen to give us any indication that stormlight actually increases strength (in fact Kaladin says it himself that it doesn't and stormlight healing and endurance / perfection can explain all other examples in the books) I would have to say that the pewter burner is in fact going to come out on top in strength no matter what planet the fight is on. The gravitation surge would certainly help in a strength contest as you could negate all physics but the point isn't about gravitation. It is that pewter is magically enhancing that thing and the strength between a pewter arm and a taller Alethi isn't really a factor. These are 2 guys at total opposite ends of the size spectrum and they are obviously in their absolute prime. That isn't to say either of them is at fighting weight (in fact Hafthor lost nearly 60kg for his fighting weight since then) and the size limitation and difference would actually be smaller than this if you had an average alethi and an average scadrian (is that the term) which would make the difference in strength even more noticeable between the 2 combatants. I know I know it isn't enough to make up for magic blade but think about the agility, speed and power able to be generated in a person who is smaller and 174% stronger than you. Pewter is stronger given the WoB quoted than I originally believed and I always thought it was a factor worth looking into more. There are numerous examples in the books of stormlight giving strength: Kaladin needing to hold light to get Hobber off the grpund after Szeth attacks, Szeth breaking down doors with "light enhanced kicks" etc. And Rock is seven Rosharan feet, and given that Kaladin is seven feet tall, but is only 6'4 to Rosharans Rock is probably closer to 7'6-7'10. Spoiler Questioner How tall is Kaladin? Brandon Sanderson Kaladin I think is 6' 4"? But I'm not 100% sure how the equivalent-- Like he is 6' 4" to Rosharans, which may actually put him several inches taller to the 6' 4", like the feet on Roshar are not exactly the same as feet here. Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018) Questioner In the Arcanum Unbounded, it says that a Rosharan foot is longer than cosmere standard. How does that compare to an Earth foot? Brandon Sanderson Longer. Kaladin is almost seven feet tall, by our measurements. We've got a height comparison, Shallan is about six feet tall. She thinks she's short. Compared to us, she'd be on the taller end. That's why if you notice people from around the cosmere that show up, they're often mentioned as short. Not Hoid, who's able to use magical means to change how he's perceived, but someone like Felt, and stuff like that. FanX 2021 (Sept. 16, 2021) Edited December 9, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortal Platypus Posted December 9, 2022 Report Share Posted December 9, 2022 (edited) 4th ideal beats mistborn with Shards i think because living plate and blade are better than dead plate and blade without atium. if atium with blade vs. 4th ideal, i think 4th ideal wins unless they have at least 5-10 minutes of atium. EDIT: I'm doing this instead of preparing for my Biology test. it'll be fine... Shard is more important than life anyway, plus I'm really good at Biology. EDIT 2: Just aced my test. let's go. Edited December 9, 2022 by Ookla the platypus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted December 9, 2022 Report Share Posted December 9, 2022 12 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: There are numerous examples in the books of stormlight giving strength: Kaladin needing to hold light to get Hobber off the grpund after Szeth attacks, Szeth breaking down doors with "light enhanced kicks" etc. And Rock is seven Rosharan feet, and given that Kaladin is seven feet tall, but is only 6'4 to Rosharans Rock is probably closer to 7'6-7'10. Hide contents Questioner How tall is Kaladin? Brandon Sanderson Kaladin I think is 6' 4"? But I'm not 100% sure how the equivalent-- Like he is 6' 4" to Rosharans, which may actually put him several inches taller to the 6' 4", like the feet on Roshar are not exactly the same as feet here. Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018) Questioner In the Arcanum Unbounded, it says that a Rosharan foot is longer than cosmere standard. How does that compare to an Earth foot? Brandon Sanderson Longer. Kaladin is almost seven feet tall, by our measurements. We've got a height comparison, Shallan is about six feet tall. She thinks she's short. Compared to us, she'd be on the taller end. That's why if you notice people from around the cosmere that show up, they're often mentioned as short. Not Hoid, who's able to use magical means to change how he's perceived, but someone like Felt, and stuff like that. FanX 2021 (Sept. 16, 2021) In my example I compared a person 5'2" to one that was 6'9". We can toss the Rosharans a few more inches but we also see that the size required to move that much mass does not increase linearly for the strength gained anyways. To be able to lift 1.64x the weight off of the ground required 1 foot and 7 inches in height and required the mountain to be 3.4x the weight. Scadrial mistborn likely won't be 5'2". I think they said Kelsier was roughly 5'8"-5'10" mark? And skaa were built by the lord ruler himself to be shorter and stockier while noble blood is what carried the mistborn traits. Your odds of being mistborn lean more towards you being taller per scadrial standards. I don't think the hieght difference makes that much of a difference with the curve in size to strength ratios. If only I could find any sources of humans kicking down doors without magic though.... As for poor Hobber that is a tug of war there and sadly has no numerical values added to it for comparison either. All I am saying is we have numbers for pewter and we have numbers for humans with 1'9" difference both at their peak. That is simple to calculate and give figures for. I would motion for more evidence that stormlight magically increases strength to a point to keep a rosharan in peak condition on point with a pewterarm in peak condition. Kicking doors, breaking bones and playing tug of war with an unknown weighted advisary isn't enough to go off of. And that isn't to mention that the messing with gravity thing actually skews what we are seeing from sources like windrunners and Szeth. Kaladin could have just lashed hobber in the opposite direction x amounts of times and wouldn't need to tug of war. (I can't recall this scene). Its all anecdotal evidence. Rock is an outlier due to swimming around in god waters. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted December 9, 2022 Report Share Posted December 9, 2022 26 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I would motion for more evidence that stormlight magically increases strength to a point to keep a rosharan in peak condition on point with a pewterarm in peak condition. Kicking doors, breaking bones and playing tug of war with an unknown weighted advisary isn't enough to go off of. I don't know about any concrete numbers but here are some references WoK: 715, 973 WoR: 153, 322, 374, 384, 874, 1022, 1024-1025 OB: 465-466 this one is particularly noteworthy as Drehy ran over a Rosharan mile in full gear with rations in under 6 minutes with just Stormlight. 27 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Kaladin could have just lashed hobber in the opposite direction x amounts of times and wouldn't need to tug of war. (I can't recall this scene). And Kaladin hadn't learned how to use basic lashings when he picked up Hobber 28 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Rock is an outlier due to swimming around in god waters. For his strength he isn't, he is a special kind of Horneater, but there are others like him. For his size he isn't either as Eshonia was seven Rosharan feet tall. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted December 9, 2022 Report Share Posted December 9, 2022 48 minutes ago, Ookla the platypus said: 4th ideal beats mistborn with Shards i think because living plate and blade are better than dead plate and blade without atium. if atium with blade vs. 4th ideal, i think 4th ideal wins unless they have at least 5-10 minutes of atium. EDIT: I'm doing this instead of preparing for my Biology test. it'll be fine... Shard is more important than life anyway, plus I'm really good at Biology. EDIT 2: Just aced my test. let's go. Good on you for acing the test Also, keep that confidence but remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer (DD reference) Additional point on Mistborn in plate, they would definitely be unable to use A-steel/A-iron (plate blocks foreign Investiture/Surges/powers), unable to use rioting/soothing without opening the helmet, A-pewter would be of minor consequence (because Shardplate provides all the benefits and more). So only remaining powers would be A-electrum, and bendalloy. Even if somehow retracting the helmet allowed them to push/pull they are now wearing at a minimum quarter ton of armor, so they will not be able to move as they are used to. I think Mistborn in deadplate would be actually worse off than without it. Mistborn with deadblade, Windrunner still has advantage, because the living blade can skip (i.e. dismiss to 'phase' through opponents sword) which is a technique impossible with deadblade (10 heartbeats). It would force Windrunner to be more careful, and limited their advantage in close quarters, but not enough to skew the outcome that much. 28 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Scadrial mistborn likely won't be 5'2". I think they said Kelsier was roughly 5'8"-5'10" mark? And skaa were built by the lord ruler himself to be shorter and stockier while noble blood is what carried the mistborn traits. Your odds of being mistborn lean more towards you being taller per scadrial standards. I don't think the hieght difference makes that much of a difference with the curve in size to strength ratios. Scadrians have even by Era 1 intermingled enough that differences between Nobles and Skaa was almost gone, outside of more allomnatic potential in nobles. So average Mistborn is of average Scadrian height, which I guess is something like ~175 cm, a bit more but similar to human average on earth pre-ww1. 31 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: All I am saying is we have numbers for pewter and we have numbers for humans with 1'9" difference both at their peak. That is simple to calculate and give figures for. I would motion for more evidence that stormlight magically increases strength to a point to keep a rosharan in peak condition on point with a pewterarm in peak condition. Kicking doors, breaking bones and playing tug of war with an unknown weighted advisary isn't enough to go off of. And that isn't to mention that the messing with gravity thing actually skews what we are seeing from sources like windrunners and Szeth. Kaladin could have just lashed hobber in the opposite direction x amounts of times and wouldn't need to tug of war. (I can't recall this scene). Its all anecdotal evidence. Rock is an outlier due to swimming around in god waters. I would say that while we do have evidence stormlight does increase strength, we also have a clear ceiling on what it does not do, and that is triple strength or even double it in my opinion. I would say it does maybe something like 1.5x at most, but even that feels like too much, but maybe for outlier (like Vin). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortal Platypus Posted December 9, 2022 Report Share Posted December 9, 2022 16 minutes ago, therunner said: Good on you for acing the test Also, keep that confidence but remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer (DD reference) thanks. I was just saying that so that people wouldn't tell me to study 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanLemon Posted December 9, 2022 Report Share Posted December 9, 2022 Stormlight effectively is like adrenaline. It allows the body to push itself to its limits. The only examples of a Radiant (or Squire) performing truly superhuman acts of strength is when Dalinar lifts a large rock and Rock shooting the Shardbow. Dalinar has Tension which I believe has been implied to increase physical strength and Rock clearly has something special going on with him considering Kalidin's astonished reaction. As for the other Pewter benefits such as increased dexterity, balance, and agility? There are multiple scenes in the books I'd argue show that Stormlight doesn't give those. My personal favorite is Lift tripping at the beginning of RoW. Additionally, sure the lower gravity let Rosharans get taller, but at the same time, that lower gravity would have a detrimental effect on muscle mass and bone density 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted December 9, 2022 Report Share Posted December 9, 2022 35 minutes ago, StanLemon said: Stormlight effectively is like adrenaline. It allows the body to push itself to its limits. The only examples of a Radiant (or Squire) performing truly superhuman acts of strength is when Dalinar lifts a large rock and Rock shooting the Shardbow. Dalinar has Tension which I believe has been implied to increase physical strength and Rock clearly has something special going on with him considering Kalidin's astonished reaction. As for the other Pewter benefits such as increased dexterity, balance, and agility? There are multiple scenes in the books I'd argue show that Stormlight doesn't give those. My personal favorite is Lift tripping at the beginning of RoW. Additionally, sure the lower gravity let Rosharans get taller, but at the same time, that lower gravity would have a detrimental effect on muscle mass and bone density Shallan pulled Kaladin into the crevice while they were in the Chasms. There is no way she is strong enough to do that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanLemon Posted December 9, 2022 Report Share Posted December 9, 2022 18 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Shallan pulled Kaladin into the crevice while they were in the Chasms. There is no way she is strong enough to do that. What are you talking about? That is entirely within human limits. She gave Kaladin a good yank to help but Kaladin is explicitly described as forcing himself up. I've personally been pulled up in a similar manner as Kaladin by a woman weighing at most 120 lbs while my weight is in the mid 200s 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortal Platypus Posted December 9, 2022 Report Share Posted December 9, 2022 I don't know about that. Kaladin is 7 foot so he would weigh significantly more that 200. plus muscle weighs more than fat so he'd way a very good amount. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanLemon Posted December 9, 2022 Report Share Posted December 9, 2022 5 minutes ago, Ookla the platypus said: I don't know about that. Kaladin is 7 foot so he would weigh significantly more that 200. plus muscle weighs more than fat so he'd way a very good amount. At most Kaladin might be 250 lbs, and even that's unlikely considering the relative malnourished he would still be by that scene. He's a soldier, not a power lifter dedicated to building muscle. Additionally Roshar has lower gravity which would lower the weight of things. And as I previously specified, the book clearly states Kaladin pushed himself up, she was only helping Quote And then, in a sudden surge, her grip tightened. With a strength that seemed to belie her smaller form, she heaved. Kaladin shoved with his good leg as water washed over it, and forced himself up the remaining distance to join her in the rocky alcove. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted December 9, 2022 Report Share Posted December 9, 2022 9 minutes ago, therunner said: Good on you for acing the test Also, keep that confidence but remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer (DD reference) Additional point on Mistborn in plate, they would definitely be unable to use A-steel/A-iron (plate blocks foreign Investiture/Surges/powers), unable to use rioting/soothing without opening the helmet, A-pewter would be of minor consequence (because Shardplate provides all the benefits and more). So only remaining powers would be A-electrum, and bendalloy. Even if somehow retracting the helmet allowed them to push/pull they are now wearing at a minimum quarter ton of armor, so they will not be able to move as they are used to. I think Mistborn in deadplate would be actually worse off than without it. Mistborn with deadblade, Windrunner still has advantage, because the living blade can skip (i.e. dismiss to 'phase' through opponents sword) which is a technique impossible with deadblade (10 heartbeats). It would force Windrunner to be more careful, and limited their advantage in close quarters, but not enough to skew the outcome that much. Scadrians have even by Era 1 intermingled enough that differences between Nobles and Skaa was almost gone, outside of more allomnatic potential in nobles. So average Mistborn is of average Scadrian height, which I guess is something like ~175 cm, a bit more but similar to human average on earth pre-ww1. I would say that while we do have evidence stormlight does increase strength, we also have a clear ceiling on what it does not do, and that is triple strength or even double it in my opinion. I would say it does maybe something like 1.5x at most, but even that feels like too much, but maybe for outlier (like Vin). I agree Vin was an outlier in pewter and I agree with the theories she was a pewter savant (maybe there is a WoB I read about that too). I also agree that dead plate may actually hinder the mistborns tool kit too much for it to be worth the effort. While adding protection against shard blade attacks the weight would be a new problem. If it did allow the mistborn to use allomancy through it we would see all steel push attacks become a lot stronger. I believe I have seen some math somewhere saying plate weighs close to 1400lbs.. nearly 3/4 of a ton. The stormlight used to power the suit would overcome all of the weight issues but I don't know how much of the strength the suit would take away from pewter or vice versa. I highly doubt it will be multiplicative and it may not even be perfectly additive but certainly pewter with the suit would be better off than either one alone. The skipping of the blade is a good example of why a mistborn may choose to use plate even if it can't work with allomancy. Now I am curious if it is one way because we see radiants who are immune to certain things in their plate also use those same powers while inside of it. I can easily see a world where the plate allows the mistborn to still push and pull from inside. Jumping from a grounded anchor would still feel like jumping but I do think projectiles will be moving a lot faster when pushed or pulled away and towards the plate and you would be able to push and pull much bigger things. A true wrecking ball of a mistborn. Also given that the allomantic metals have a natural side effect of increasing your metal capacity to filter and use them there is that. I think it would be a short learning curve for a practiced mistborn to have a higher weight. Plate will help in fighting and allow the mistborn to make a lot more sacrificial moves as options. With just a blade it would be as if Vin were dancing over the koloss with that blade only this one burns eyes out. Given our example of a small lifter on Roshar... even if the radiant got 1.5x it wouldn't be as strong as a tiny mistborn with pewter at a normal burn. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted December 9, 2022 Report Share Posted December 9, 2022 59 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Shallan pulled Kaladin into the crevice while they were in the Chasms. There is no way she is strong enough to do that. 36 minutes ago, StanLemon said: What are you talking about? That is entirely within human limits. She gave Kaladin a good yank to help but Kaladin is explicitly described as forcing himself up. I've personally been pulled up in a similar manner as Kaladin by a woman weighing at most 120 lbs while my weight is in the mid 200s 34 minutes ago, Ookla the platypus said: I don't know about that. Kaladin is 7 foot so he would weigh significantly more that 200. plus muscle weighs more than fat so he'd way a very good amount. 21 minutes ago, StanLemon said: At most Kaladin might be 250 lbs, and even that's unlikely considering the relative malnourished he would still be by that scene. He's a soldier, not a power lifter dedicated to building muscle. Additionally Roshar has lower gravity which would lower the weight of things. And as I previously specified, the book clearly states Kaladin pushed himself up, she was only helping I have to back up @StanLemon on this one. There is a big difference between lifting dead weight and a willing participant. In the hospital we have rules and regulations all around this very thing. A 250lb guy is easy enough for a single person to boost up when they can push up and off of the ground at all. That same 250lb guy is a whole team effort 6+ people when trying to roll them over as they are paralyzed. Kaladin was a willing participant in this lift and while it says she had a strength that may have surprised him a bit that in no means says she is stronger than what she should be. How many 6' tall women do you all think were boosting Kaladin around in his life? How many does he have in his control group to say "good thing Shallan had stormlight so she could lift twice as much as every other petite Rosharan lady I have let carry me around otherwise I would have been toast"? To play devil's advocate further the physics behind the gravity don't say that a Rosharan is weaker on Roshar explicitly. They are exactly how strong their environment allows them to be, but we as outsiders understand that the gram weighs 30% less on Roshar. It is all the same mass and the characters would never notice a difference until they leave their native planet. Much like we don't know how high we could jump on mars they don't know how high they could be jumping elsewhere either. What we know for arguments sake in pewter vs stormlight is that all pewter burners see a 20kg plate as 20kg and all stormlight characts see a 20kg plate as 20kg. Just like with height all stormlight characters see Kaladin as being 6'3" where as we can say he is closer to 7' because of our meta knowledge. Its only through this meta knowledge that we can say the 250lb Kaladin, on Scadrial, would suddenly feel he weighed 357lbs and had to jump with nearly half another person on his back, and worse for him, in this case a Shallan who could comfortably assist a soldier on her planet now has to help lift nearly 1.5 soldiers who can't fully boost themselves because of their newly found weight. Gravity is a factor comparing systems but not really a factor when discussing the characters interacting with other characters from their planet. Also I don't know if the less gravity allows them to grow taller and bigger or it is the slightly higher O2 pressures on Roshar... Either one would make a difference. If Roshar is 30% O2 and Scadrial is Earths 21% O2 it would be expected that Rosharans would need a source of supplemental oxygen or burn through stormlight constantly to heal the tissue damage caused by chronic hypoxia. Working with COPDers who live dragging around oxygen at the equivalent to 30%, not only would Kaladin going from Roshar to Scadrial be 100lbs fatter (feeling to his bone structure and musculature) but he would also be oxygen deprived and gulping on air after even a short exercise. Meanwhile Kelsier going to Roshar would be 30% lighter, able to lift 142% of his normal capacity in mass (Not counting pewter) but he would also feel like he a blood doper getting hooked up with 2.5lpm of supplemental O2 all the time. 2 hours ago, Ookla the platypus said: thanks. I was just saying that so that people wouldn't tell me to study Glad you aced that too. Enjoy life but don't regret missing something you may need down the future. If anything the shard has made me slightly happier I paid half the attention I did in my studies. Brandon Sanderson is my favorite author for his world building alone. I love the systems of magic and their relation to our own physical reality. I am glad he is versed enough to make it as cohesive as it is. Working in my line of work I can tend to get hung up on the parts of magic that require the answer "because magic" when discussions lead away from physics and biology down the "Brandon is god of the cosmere and he says that X and Y follow these rules but Z follows no rules." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortal Platypus Posted December 9, 2022 Report Share Posted December 9, 2022 10 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Glad you aced that too. Enjoy life but don't regret missing something you may need down the future. If anything the shard has made me slightly happier I paid half the attention I did in my studies. Brandon Sanderson is my favorite author for his world building alone. I love the systems of magic and their relation to our own physical reality. I am glad he is versed enough to make it as cohesive as it is. Working in my line of work I can tend to get hung up on the parts of magic that require the answer "because magic" when discussions lead away from physics and biology down the "Brandon is god of the cosmere and he says that X and Y follow these rules but Z follows no rules." we had spent the past couple weeks learning and I knew it all, don't worry, I'm very curious about these things so if I didn't know it, I would have studied it. Thanks for the worry but it's not necessary. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted December 9, 2022 Report Share Posted December 9, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I also agree that dead plate may actually hinder the mistborns tool kit too much for it to be worth the effort. While adding protection against shard blade attacks the weight would be a new problem. If it did allow the mistborn to use allomancy through it we would see all steel push attacks become a lot stronger. I believe I have seen some math somewhere saying plate weighs close to 1400lbs.. nearly 3/4 of a ton. The stormlight used to power the suit would overcome all of the weight issues but I don't know how much of the strength the suit would take away from pewter or vice versa. I highly doubt it will be multiplicative and it may not even be perfectly additive but certainly pewter with the suit would be better off than either one alone. The skipping of the blade is a good example of why a mistborn may choose to use plate even if it can't work with allomancy. Now I am curious if it is one way because we see radiants who are immune to certain things in their plate also use those same powers while inside of it. I can easily see a world where the plate allows the mistborn to still push and pull from inside. Jumping from a grounded anchor would still feel like jumping but I do think projectiles will be moving a lot faster when pushed or pulled away and towards the plate and you would be able to push and pull much bigger things. A true wrecking ball of a mistborn. Also given that the allomantic metals have a natural side effect of increasing your metal capacity to filter and use them there is that. I think it would be a short learning curve for a practiced mistborn to have a higher weight. Plate will help in fighting and allow the mistborn to make a lot more sacrificial moves as options. With just a blade it would be as if Vin were dancing over the koloss with that blade only this one burns eyes out. Plate would definitely block the external Invested arts https://wob.coppermind.net/events/181/#e3830 , the only reason Radiants don't have that issue is because it is their living Plate, see WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/478/#e15130 , and also it is in the books. Edit: This is the specific WoB I had in mind https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105/#e1214 , relating to books and Szeth comments. So Deadplate would just block the Invested Arts as it is not keyed to the Mistborn, and would rob Mistborn of Leeching (the only active way they have of removing Stormlight) and any other ability that goes from Mistborn to something external (i.e. pushes/pulls, rioting/soothing, nicrosil/leeching, etc.). Also, I doubt that A-Pewter and Deadplate strength speed would be additive, Deadplate acts kind of like powered armor, so it is more like the person inside guides the movements, but it is the plate that does the work, strength of the wielder is irrelevant. It would probably help a bit with reflexes and agility, but to what extent is a question as plate improves those as well. So Plate while providing more defense to the Mistborn would take away majority of their mobility, their subversive tactics (rioting/soothing) and some of their offensive abilities (leeching/nicrosil/coinshots), all for defense against several hits from Shardblade. Also, after a couple of hits Radiant could just wait until the Plate leaks the Stormlight and the plate locks up, trapping the Mistborn. Edited December 9, 2022 by therunner 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted December 9, 2022 Report Share Posted December 9, 2022 12 minutes ago, therunner said: Plate would definitely block the external Invested arts https://wob.coppermind.net/events/181/#e3830 , the only reason Radiants don't have that issue is because it is their living Plate, see WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/478/#e15130 , and also it is in the books. Edit: This is the specific WoB I had in mind https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105/#e1214 , relating to books and Szeth comments. So Deadplate would just block the Invested Arts as it is not keyed to the Mistborn, and would rob Mistborn of Leeching (the only active way they have of removing Stormlight) and any other ability that goes from Mistborn to something external (i.e. pushes/pulls, rioting/soothing, nicrosil/leeching, etc.). Also, I doubt that A-Pewter and Deadplate strength speed would be additive, Deadplate acts kind of like powered armor, so it is more like the person inside guides the movements, but it is the plate that does the work, strength of the wielder is irrelevant. It would probably help a bit with reflexes and agility, but to what extent is a question as plate improves those as well. So Plate while providing more defense to the Mistborn would take away majority of their mobility, their subversive tactics (rioting/soothing) and some of their offensive abilities (leeching/nicrosil/coinshots), all for defense against several hits from Shardblade. Also, after a couple of hits Radiant could just wait until the Plate leaks the Stormlight and the plate locks up, trapping the Mistborn. Yeah I sort of pictured this as the case. I think a better option for mistborn defensively in this fight would be a set of aluminum chainmail. In fact I think it could be a fairly viable option for everyone on roshar once aluminum becomes more well known (again in the case of scadrial vs roshar we already have scadrial persons with access to soulcasters). With a set of aluminum chainmail you would end up getting full value of the pewter enhancements having a tougher and denser body to absorb and shrug off the now non magical slashes of the shardblade. Its a lot of load out issues the mistborn has to go through in this case with no atium and no gun. But a hard and dense alloy of aluminum that would block a shardblade as some armor and a heavy aluminum hammer, rod, sword or spear could very quickly even out the odds again. Without a doubt the kit failures of mistborn are no magical sword but future sight instead. We are quickly entering a path way off of target here but I have enjoyed the chance to think out and math out some actual pewter science and what would be needed to find an even playing field either way. It is 1 tool or 1 part of a powerset that swings the pendulum back and forth in either direction all the way until you have 2 shards in an eternal battle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted December 10, 2022 Report Share Posted December 10, 2022 11 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Yeah I sort of pictured this as the case. I think a better option for mistborn defensively in this fight would be a set of aluminum chainmail. In fact I think it could be a fairly viable option for everyone on roshar once aluminum becomes more well known (again in the case of scadrial vs roshar we already have scadrial persons with access to soulcasters). With a set of aluminum chainmail you would end up getting full value of the pewter enhancements having a tougher and denser body to absorb and shrug off the now non magical slashes of the shardblade. I think aluminum chainmail would introduce the same issues, as it again blocks Investiture and Connection. It might be better then plate, in that it would not introduce the sort of "bubble" effect the deadplate would, however since hat lined with aluminum is sufficient to block riotiong and soothing, I think aluminum also has similar bubble effect, so it would again interfere with the external Allomancy. Additionally, pulls/pushes go from center of mass, which would be covered by aluminum, so it would most likely be fully blocked, or the pushes/pulls would work in odd ways. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted December 10, 2022 Report Share Posted December 10, 2022 (edited) 18 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Yeah I sort of pictured this as the case. I think a better option for mistborn defensively in this fight would be a set of aluminum chainmail. In fact I think it could be a fairly viable option for everyone on roshar once aluminum becomes more well known (again in the case of scadrial vs roshar we already have scadrial persons with access to soulcasters). With a set of aluminum chainmail you would end up getting full value of the pewter enhancements having a tougher and denser body to absorb and shrug off the now non magical slashes of the shardblade. Why would you use a shardblade? At that point you would switch to anti-armor weapons like a mace or a hammer, and kill them blunt force. Edited December 10, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted December 10, 2022 Report Share Posted December 10, 2022 5 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: Why would you use a shardblade? At that point you would switch to anti-armor weapons like a mace or a hammer, and kill them blunt force. Which would still be a better case scenario for the mistborn. Pewter gives denseness to bones and just adds to their toughness all around. A hit from a hammer would be more survivable than a severed spine. The entire argument for the sword being the win condition is that it is a 1 shot weapon with a spine / head shot. Being able to take even a few more hits will sway the pendulum closer to the mistborns side. 7 hours ago, therunner said: I think aluminum chainmail would introduce the same issues, as it again blocks Investiture and Connection. It might be better then plate, in that it would not introduce the sort of "bubble" effect the deadplate would, however since hat lined with aluminum is sufficient to block riotiong and soothing, I think aluminum also has similar bubble effect, so it would again interfere with the external Allomancy. Additionally, pulls/pushes go from center of mass, which would be covered by aluminum, so it would most likely be fully blocked, or the pushes/pulls would work in odd ways. I again agree with this. There is likely no way of protecting yourself from a shardblade strike while keeping your powerset except for some F gold through either a spike or a medallion. At which point it isn't just F gold and then it is full on compounding which is probably just as busted as having atium (though possibly easier to achieve in Era 2 than getting atium). Again far from the scenario of the open plains with no metal to use as anchors except what you carry and no atium. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted December 10, 2022 Report Share Posted December 10, 2022 Just now, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Which would still be a better case scenario for the mistborn. Pewter gives denseness to bones and just adds to their toughness all around. A hit from a hammer would be more survivable than a severed spine. The entire argument for the sword being the win condition is that it is a 1 shot weapon with a spine / head shot. Being able to take even a few more hits will sway the pendulum closer to the mistborns side. If you allow mistborn additional tools the radiant gets them as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted December 10, 2022 Report Share Posted December 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said: If you allow mistborn additional tools the radiant gets them as well. I feel like you aren't getting the spirit of my messages and replies. In the outlined setting the radiant wins more often than not. Nevermind the setting is literally hand crafted for the radiant to win. Open plains with no metal and no atium. My question was what would the mistborn need in an open field with no anchors and not allowed to use atium? So your argument here is that if I give the tools to the mistborn the radiant gets more too... I move to have the mistborn and the 3rd ideal windrunner fight eachother minus the use of any godmetals. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted December 10, 2022 Report Share Posted December 10, 2022 17 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Nevermind the setting is literally hand crafted for the radiant to win. Open plains with no metal and no atium. Hand crafted, you mean an even playing field. Hand crafted for a Radiant win would mean on the shattered plains in the middle of a Highstorm. Or a dozen other ways for it to be even more rigged. 19 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I move to have the mistborn and the 3rd ideal windrunner fight eachother minus the use of any godmetals. Does that include shardblades? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted December 10, 2022 Report Share Posted December 10, 2022 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I move to have the mistborn and the 3rd ideal windrunner fight eachother minus the use of any godmetals. Well, one has godmetal equipment / being as the centerpoint of their abilities, and the other only has abilities because someone used godmetal in the past so, we have only two people fighting? Seriously though, Shardblades are inherent part of 3rd Ideal Windrunner power-set, taking them away is like saying Mistborn minus pushes/pulls. Edited December 10, 2022 by therunner spelling 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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