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Mistborn V.S. 3rd ideal Windrunner


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Mistborn V.S. 3rd ideal Windrunner   

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  1. 1. who would win a fully trained mistborn or a 3rd ideal windrunner. give reasons as for your answer. (New people, please vote after reading at least some replies)



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5 minutes ago, Ookla the Ta'veren said:

Wait, why are they useless? Sorry, I didn't read the entire discussion. 

Aluminum, Nicrosil, Gold, Cadmium, Copper, Zinc, Brass, and to a lesser extent Electrum would all be ineffective against a Radiant. More abilities does not necessarily mean more power.

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even steel and iron are only useful in some scenarios. especially if you can reverse lash a sprenblade. bronze is only useful to see how much Stormlight they have and tin is only useful to see farther. pewter is mostly countered by the Rosharan's physical stature and Stormlight, leeching requires getting in range of a SprenBlade. Duralumin is only useful in some scenarios. Lerasium is useless, Aitum is the Mistborn's basically only saving grace, Malatium could hypothetically be used with Soothing and Rioting to be powerful, but it's not likely because the Spren would help the KR through it.

Edited by Ookla the platypus
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9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Aluminum, Nicrosil, Gold, Cadmium, Copper, Zinc, Brass, and to a lesser extent Electrum would all be ineffective against a Radiant. More abilities does not necessarily mean more power.

I don't believe stormlight will shield a radiant from zinc and brass.  Kaladin, even with stormlight, still has his depression to deal with.  Is stormlight a nice high for the radiant temporarily? Sure but it doesn't suddenly reverse their years of trauma and cracked spirit web. A zinc and brass attack would definately be more than useless.  I won't say it will win a fight alone but soothing down the fire for a fight or rioting the feelings of uselessness in an already unstable person would do a lot.  Plus there is the oaths that radiants have to adhere to.  If emotional instability was to hit and a radiant no longer felt capable of upholding their oaths or they started to desire something contrary to their oaths they may even lose their spren blade altogether.   Kaladin didn't even have to plan out an assassination with Moash.  Just him being torn between his buddy and his oaths was enough to nearly cost him his bond and kill Syl.  

Emotional allomancy is far from useless in a fight against a cracked spirit and emotional radiant.  

14 minutes ago, Ookla the platypus said:

even steel and iron are only useful in some scenarios. especially if you can reverse lash a sprenblade. bronze is only useful to see how much Stormlight they have and tin is only useful to see farther. pewter is mostly countered by the Rosharan's physical stature and Stormlight, leeching requires getting in range of a SprenBlade.

I believe you cannot reverse lash a spren anything.  It is far to invested to be effected that way.  You can reverse lash a lot and help against the mistborn but the spren shield is not something you can do that for.  

Rosharans stature isn't a counter to pewter.  Pewter arm is still faster and stronger than your radiant with stormlight.  

Leeching is a matter of touching a radiant once.  As is a potential duralumin pewter powered instakill. 

Atium left out I can see the blade being an issue but it literally takes a matter of seconds to get into range due to knowing exactly where the radiant and their blade will be a second or two ahead of time.  Future sight is far beyond busted in the fight vs anyone without future sight.  Until the radiant can turtle into their plate atium is the win condition to over come.  Its probably easier for a mistborn to deal with a radiant and the blade minus atium than it is for a radiant to deal with atium minus plate.  Plus, in those cases where plate is in play the radiant has to pray they don't have their plate leeched to the point of locking up or the mistborn broke through it with other methods.  Luckily 4th ideal isn't a rabbit hole for this discussion.  

 

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3 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I don't believe stormlight will shield a radiant from zinc and brass.  Kaladin, even with stormlight, still has his depression to deal with.  Is stormlight a nice high for the radiant temporarily? Sure but it doesn't suddenly reverse their years of trauma and cracked spirit web. A zinc and brass attack would definately be more than useless.  I won't say it will win a fight alone but soothing down the fire for a fight or rioting the feelings of uselessness in an already unstable person would do a lot.  Plus there is the oaths that radiants have to adhere to.  If emotional instability was to hit and a radiant no longer felt capable of upholding their oaths or they started to desire something contrary to their oaths they may even lose their spren blade altogether.   Kaladin didn't even have to plan out an assassination with Moash.  Just him being torn between his buddy and his oaths was enough to nearly cost him his bond and kill Syl.  

Emotional allomancy is far from useless in a fight against a cracked spirit and emotional radiant.  

It has nothing to do with emotions and everything to do with Investiture. While holding stormlight a Radiant at third ideal would be too invested to effect.

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17 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

It has nothing to do with emotions and everything to do with Investiture. While holding stormlight a Radiant at third ideal would be too invested to effect.

Do we have WOB saying that lungs full of stormlight are the equivalent to aluminum lined hats and copperclouds?   A mistborn flaring all other metals minus copper doesn't gain protection from emotional allomancy do they?   How many breaths would be required to provide the same immunity to an awakener and how much feruchemical tapping is needed for it to immunize a feruchemist?  

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1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do we have WOB saying that lungs full of stormlight are the equivalent to aluminum lined hats and copperclouds?   A mistborn flaring all other metals minus copper doesn't gain protection from emotional allomancy do they?   How many breaths would be required to provide the same immunity to an awakener and how much feruchemical tapping is needed for it to immunize a feruchemist?  

Stormlight is much more investiture dense than metals. In fact Scadrial in it's entirety is investiture poor.

Spoiler

Trae Cooper (paraphrased)

Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question.

1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture.

2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul.

This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm.

3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades.

Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate.

DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012)

 

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1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

cracked spirit web

WOB that we saw earlier says that KR's don't have to have a cracked Spiritweb, it's just common.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I believe you cannot reverse lash a spren anything.  It is far to invested to be effected that way.  You can reverse lash a lot and help against the mistborn but the spren shield is not something you can do that for.  

I was 99%+ certain that you couldn't, I was just saying that if you could, it would be useful. Although with @Ookla the Frustrated.'s most recent comment, it might be possible if you had enough Stormlight.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Rosharans stature isn't a counter to pewter.  Pewter arm is still faster and stronger than your radiant with stormlight.  

I agree that it's not perfect, but it does help, especially with Stormlight.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

duralumin pewter powered instakill

correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like a good way to kill yourself. Especially if you do it right as they summon a SprenBlade and it severs your spine.

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2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Rosharans stature isn't a counter to pewter.  Pewter arm is still faster and stronger than your radiant with stormlight. 

With stormlight they would be roughly equal. Pewter only doubles strength, and Rosharans larger build and stormlights increase in strength should put them on equal ground.

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23 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Stormlight is much more investiture dense than metals. In fact Scadrial in it's entirety is investiture poor.

  Reveal hidden contents

Trae Cooper (paraphrased)

Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question.

1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture.

2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul.

This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm.

3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades.

Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate.

DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012)

 

Radiant are more invested then allomancers burning metals but I dont think it is enough to block rioting/soothing, atleast we never so it being enough. Shardplate Is enough but I we never saw being radiant or invested being enough.

Quote

BasakaIsTheStrongest

Does Shardplate provide protection against emotional Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Don't dismiss your helmet when you're around an Allomancer.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

Edited by offer
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Just now, offer said:

Radiant are more invested then allomancers burning metals but I dont think it is enough to block rioting/soothing, atleast we never so it being enough and brandon implied that a radiant without shardhemet is vulnurable to emotional allomancy.

 

He also doesn't mention stormlight, just shardplate. And even if they weren't completely immune they would have a natural resistance.

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24 minutes ago, Ookla the platypus said:

WOB that we saw earlier says that KR's don't have to have a cracked Spiritweb, it's just common.

I was 99%+ certain that you couldn't, I was just saying that if you could, it would be useful. Although with @Ookla the Frustrated.'s most recent comment, it might be possible if you had enough Stormlight.

I agree that it's not perfect, but it does help, especially with Stormlight.

correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like a good way to kill yourself. Especially if you do it right as they summon a SprenBlade and it severs your spine.

This fight is high risk high reward for both sides.  Letting a mistborn get close enough to touch you seems like a good way to have all of your stormlight leeched and your sprenblade no longer summonable and get 1 shot as well.  Atium just gives the mistborn the ability to see all of the radiants moves ahead of time and easily navigate safely to grappling range.  

 

29 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Stormlight is much more investiture dense than metals. In fact Scadrial in it's entirety is investiture poor.

  Reveal hidden contents

Trae Cooper (paraphrased)

Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question.

1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture.

2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul.

This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm.

3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades.

Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate.

DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012)

 

That is not proof that the mere existence of stormlight in a radiants lungs makes them immune to emotional allomancy.  Yes they are highly invested when breathing stormlight but it is not taking the place of aluminum hats or replace the existence of an entire magic built around countering it.  

24 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

With stormlight they would be roughly equal. Pewter only doubles strength, and Rosharans larger build and stormlights increase in strength should put them on equal ground.

Being larger doesn't necessarily mean they are stronger.   Arguably a mistborn used to 30% more gravitational pull working against them in every daily activity would cause a difference in strength baseline as well which is then further boosted.  

If everything you lifted your entire life was suddenly 30% lighter... which is has to be fighting on Roshar (because a 3rd ideal radiant can't really fight anywhere else anyways) there would be a big change.   The scadrial native mistborn pound for pound will naturally be stronger than the roshar native radiant.  Then you add your pewter on top.  Arm wrestling the mistborn on pewter wins against the stormlight infused radiant without plate.  

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6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

your sprenblade no longer summonable

you can still summon sprenblades when not invested, right? do WOB contradict that? I think you can.

5 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

because a 3rd ideal radiant can't really fight anywhere else anyways

Why not?

Edited by Ookla the platypus
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3 minutes ago, Ookla the platypus said:

you can still summon sprenblades when not invested, right? do WOB contradict that? I think you can.

Why not?

While being leeched you cannot summon the blade.  So once touched the radiant is pretty much wrestling for their life with no weapon or stormlight.  

Stormlight is hard to take off of Roshar.  Very hard.  And if a radiant were on a planet where everything suddenly weighed 140+% of what they were used to they would run into more of an issue with relative strength.  

 

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16 minutes ago, Ookla the platypus said:

okay, thanks for answering me. but once they stop leeching you, can't you just summon the blade then?

Absolutely.  Once the mistborn let's you go you can summon your blade and start healing everything they do again via a fresh breath of stormlight.  But as a mistborn once I touch a radiant why on earth would I let them go to continue the fight.  Once the mistborn touches the radiant the fight us over... you can't heal you can't fly you can't do anything other than fight as a normal human... at least you are bigger than the magically enhanced enemy who has a hold on you... 

This is why atium is the win con of win cons in this match-up.  The mistborn needs to grab hold of the radiant and it is game over.  Atium let's the mistborn effortlessly duck and weave their way through the radiants attacks.  

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1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This is why atium is the win con of win cons in this match-up.  The mistborn needs to grab hold of the radiant and it is game over.  Atium let's the mistborn effortlessly duck and weave their way through the radiants attacks.  

Atium is I win button against 3rd Oath, if there is enough atium, on that I think most agree.

But without Atium? Mistborn has to do everything right, because one mistake and it is over for them, whereas Windrunner has room to make those mistakes.

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33 minutes ago, therunner said:

Atium is I win button against 3rd Oath, if there is enough atium, on that I think most agree.

But without Atium? Mistborn has to do everything right, because one mistake and it is over for them, whereas Windrunner has room to make those mistakes.

A mistborn without atium is like a windrunner without his spren blade.  

Why would we have to imagine the fight without giving both combatants their entire toolkit?   

As far as the chances of a mistborn landing a shot on the windrunner without atium... it is higher chances than anyone else who has landed hits.  Kaladin shows us that on just stormlight you can work around blades.... the mistborn has plenty of speed and dexterity to not be a complete sitting duck in the fight.  Spren blade is spooky when you get hit by it.  A mistborn with a withered arm is still a threat so long as the sacrificed arm allowed the mistborn to touch the windrunner.  

Atium vs 3rd ideal is 99% mistborn. 

Without atium I feel it fair to offer a 60/40 split in favor of the magic sword user.  I say that because mistborn aren't known for taking sacrificial hits for nothing.  A kolos blade is just as capable of one-shotting a mistborn as a sprenblade.  If anything the windrunner is more likely to be reckless knowing they can heal than the mistborn knowing they can't.  

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27 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

A mistborn without atium is like a windrunner without his spren blade.  

No, it's like a Radiant without a Rhyshadium.

27 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Why would we have to imagine the fight without giving both combatants their entire toolkit?   

So the Radiant gets their plate?

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2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Why would we have to imagine the fight without giving both combatants their entire toolkit?   

because the creator of this thread said that it was in the Second Era with First Era powers and there isn't much atium in Second Era. Thus the Mistborn probably wouldn't have any.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

the mistborn has plenty of speed and dexterity to not be a complete sitting duck in the fight

The Radiant has probably similar levels so he has the advantage there.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Kaladin shows us that on just stormlight you can work around blades

only with the user not having equal or close to equal levels of strength and dexterity

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

So the Radiant gets their plate?

no, that's fourth ideal, he means their toolkit for their perspective "ranks" for lack of a better term.

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10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

A mistborn without atium is like a windrunner without his spren blade. 

Not really, sprenblade is regular part of the get-up, like ability to burn metals.
Atium is rare in Era 1 thanks to the Hold (where having enough for a minute is a fortune, and not even all Mistborn are equiped with it) and non-existent in Era 2.

10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

As far as the chances of a mistborn landing a shot on the windrunner without atium... it is higher chances than anyone else who has landed hits.  Kaladin shows us that on just stormlight you can work around blades.... the mistborn has plenty of speed and dexterity to not be a complete sitting duck in the fight.  Spren blade is spooky when you get hit by it.  A mistborn with a withered arm is still a threat so long as the sacrificed arm allowed the mistborn to touch the windrunner. 

Without atium I feel it fair to offer a 60/40 split in favor of the magic sword user.  I say that because mistborn aren't known for taking sacrificial hits for nothing.  A kolos blade is just as capable of one-shotting a mistborn as a sprenblade.  If anything the windrunner is more likely to be reckless knowing they can heal than the mistborn knowing they can't.  

Except Koloss are far more dumb, less nimble and dexterous than Radiants? Fighting those is quite a different thing.

Windrunner would be doing maneuvers that would kill Mistborn, that gives them additional edge on top of all the other advantages they have (i.e. only direct advantage Mistborn has is A-pewter, A-electrum and maybe rioting/soothing).

It is not really about fairness, it is about abilities and survivability, and Windrunner is definitely above Mistborn there. Less versatile sure (Windrunner assassin would be quite bad at being sneaky, or finding the target), but in a straight-up fight 3rd Oath Windrunner is far beyond the Mistborn. Windrunner can take hits, Mistborn cannot. Windrunner can move in ways Mistborn cannot. Windrunner can move at speeds Mistborn cannot. Windrunner can deflect ranged attacks (outside of aluminum), Mistborn can only with metal (and non-invested at that). Windrunner has far superior melee weapon. And windrunner is reliant only on Stormlight not metal vials (which could be taken away by Reverse Lashing possibly, similar to Pursuers head).

Edited by therunner
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14 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

No, it's like a Radiant without a Rhyshadium.

So the Radiant gets their plate?

This is specifically 3rd ideal.  So there is no plate.  If it was a blanket radiant vs mistborn then we would get into plate discussion.  This is 3rd ideal vs mistborn.  No plate. 

A radiant without a ryshadium?   How does that even make sense other than they both end in ium?  A totally real metal that mistborn can burn vs a strong horse that has feelings for the flying radiant to play with? 

12 hours ago, Ookla the platypus said:

because the creator of this thread said that it was in the Second Era with First Era powers and there isn't much atium in Second Era. Thus the Mistborn probably wouldn't have any.

We are far into the thread.  So era 2 metals with era 1 weaponry for the mistborn... if we even need to give the mistborn a weapon at all since it isn't actually a part of their magic system built in to it.  

Era 2 would also introduce ample access to firearms and now with the later era 2 medallions.  

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Atium is rare in Era 1 thanks to the Hold (where having enough for a minute is a fortune, and not even all Mistborn are equiped with it) and non-existent in Era 2.

So rare in Era 1 that every single fight between mistborn or an inquisitor either needs atium to work or plot armor and electrum.  I know the rarity is stressed but even the skaa thief had it and all of the major houses had it... not barring that they were the only ones legally supposed to have mistborn anyways. 

 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Windrunner would be doing maneuvers that would kill Mistborn, that gives them additional edge on top of all the other advantages they have (i.e. only direct advantage Mistborn has is A-pewter, A-electrum and maybe rioting/soothing).

It is not really about fairness, it is about abilities and survivability, and Windrunner is definitely above Mistborn there. Less versatile sure (Windrunner assassin would be quite bad at being sneaky, or finding the target), but in a straight-up fight 3rd Oath Windrunner is far beyond the Mistborn. Windrunner can take hits, Mistborn cannot. Windrunner can move in ways Mistborn cannot. Windrunner can move at speeds Mistborn cannot. Windrunner can deflect ranged attacks (outside of aluminum), Mistborn can only with metal (and non-invested at that). Windrunner has far superior melee weapon. And windrunner is reliant only on Stormlight not metal vials (which could be taken away by Reverse Lashing possibly, similar to Pursuers head).

As far as the pursuers head... if a windrunner touches the mistborn they will be leeched.  

The windrunner does have the superior melee weapon but unless they are fighting naked with a sack of spheres that has no metal buckle or belt with any metal on it either to hold it to them... the mistborn doesn't have to let them get close anyways.  

Mobiltiy is in the windrunners favor because all threads quickly get slapped with "on an open field with no metal near by".  Fighting in any town or city with structures held by any metal at all and I don't think that the windrunners mobility is favored anymore.  In fact it would be the mistborn able to make faster and tighter turns with more up front acceleration "thrust generated vs fall time".  

I never said that the windrunner was less durable than the mistborn.  Just that if the mistborn touches the radiant it is game over.  

In an open field with no metal and 2 naked fighters mistborn with no atium or weapon because its not in their ability kit vs windrunner the windrunner wins the majority of the time because magic weapon.   There is no real argument there.  I stand by the fact that if the mistborn touches the radiant then the mistborn will leech the radiant and pop their skull even if the mistborn has noodles for arms. 

Even the sling got a kill on deadliest warrior.  

The setting or allowable gear in the fight would change everything.  Even 5 seconds of atium timed when the windrunner is in melee range would be the game changer.  No atium just era 2 stuff and the mistborn suddenly has access to medallions and guns and aluminum weaponry. Even if it was just alloy of law aluminum bullets would be available to someone from scadrial.  

All of this is with the fact that if the mistborn is fighting in Roshar they suddenly weigh 30% less and if the radiant is fighting on scadrial they weigh 42% more.  Your 170lb mistborn is suddenly moving as if they took off a 51lb weighted vest and your 240lb radiant just put on a 100lb vest.  

 

 

Edited by Tamriel Wolfsbaine
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1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The windrunner does have the superior melee weapon but unless they are fighting naked with a sack of spheres that has no metal buckle or belt with any metal on it either to hold it to them... the mistborn doesn't have to let them get close anyways. 

They can always stack Lashings to catch up and use wooden or plastic buttons/belt buckles.

 

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

In an open field with no metal and 2 naked fighters mistborn with no atium or weapon because its not in their ability kit vs windrunner the windrunner wins the majority of the time because magic weapon.   There is no real argument there.  I stand by the fact that if the mistborn touches the radiant then the mistborn will leech the radiant and pop their skull even if the mistborn has noodles for arms. 

I definitely don't think that they'll pop the skull but i agree they have the advantage grappling.

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