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Mistborn V.S. 3rd ideal Windrunner

Mistborn V.S. 3rd ideal Windrunner    38 members have voted

  1. 1. who would win a fully trained mistborn or a 3rd ideal windrunner. give reasons as for your answer. (New people, please vote after reading at least some replies)


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320 posts in this topic

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Rosharans are easily almost a foot or more taller than Scadrians, even with pewter they would only be a but stronger, not enough to crush them.

No they aren't. Terminal velocity is much faster than any mistborn could achieve without duralumin.

If they swallowed a decent amount of gold beforehand they might be able to use that as a buffer as leeching takes non-invested metals before invested ones. The only question is whether or not it will burn away metals if someone can't use them.

I doubt they could get in range for that, especially with the radiant being taller.

There is a lot of math that can go into exactly how fast mistborn are able to accelerate and fly. I believe it is faster than terminal velocity (approximately 145 mph or around 213fps)

How fast does a coin have to go to cut through a person?  213fps is a speed that would make any barebow archer excited about.  Coins are not as sharp as an arrow and significantly less weighty.  Laws of physics say that a coin needs to be traveling a lot faster than that to be an effective projectile weapon vs anything.  If speed is based on steel pushers mass vs the mass of the coin then the mass of an earth is far far greater compared to the steel pushers own.  There would be a limit to what the steel allows you to move but it would be well within terminal velocity speeds and would likely be pushing past that.  

8 minutes ago, therunner said:

Can the Mistborn have hour worth of Atium?
Also if the Mistborn is not burning it all the time, they can misjudge or not notice danger and get killed.

I don't think mistborn has an hour worth of atium.  But it doesn't need an hours worth of atium.  You toggle it off when danger is far and you toggle it on when it's go time. Tin and bronze will be plenty to warn the mistborn that danger is incoming and pinpoint where it is coming from is easy enough if that radiant has even a spec of metal on them.  (For what it is worth I believe steel sight would still pick up a spren blade even if you can't push on it).  

As for the idea that the mistborn wouldn't start with atium... I would say if the mistborn can see a blade but can't push on it they would immediately turn on atium once in range because something funky is going on.  

 

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I mean it's unlikely for a Mistborn to have an hour of Atium, but not impossible. Kelsier had enough for a "prolonged fight" not sure what he considered that to be and Zane never seemed to feel shy about the amount of Atium he had to use.

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13 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

There is a lot of math that can go into exactly how fast mistborn are able to accelerate and fly. I believe it is faster than terminal velocity (approximately 145 mph or around 213fps)

How fast does a coin have to go to cut through a person?  213fps is a speed that would make any barebow archer excited about.  Coins are not as sharp as an arrow and significantly less weighty.  Laws of physics say that a coin needs to be traveling a lot faster than that to be an effective projectile weapon vs anything.  If speed is based on steel pushers mass vs the mass of the coin then the mass of an earth is far far greater compared to the steel pushers own.  There would be a limit to what the steel allows you to move but it would be well within terminal velocity speeds and would likely be pushing past that.  

The spikeway is probably the fastest we see a mistborn go, and Kelsier and Vin don't mention anything about the wind, so I doubt they even get to the high tens of miles per hour.

15 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 (For what it is worth I believe steel sight would still pick up a spren blade even if you can't push on it).  

Only if they have inquisitor steelsight.

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3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I mean it's unlikely for a Mistborn to have an hour of Atium, but not impossible. Kelsier had enough for a "prolonged fight" not sure what he considered that to be and Zane never seemed to feel shy about the amount of Atium he had to use.

This is where we see what atium truly is.  A prolonged fight with atium only happens when both parties have atium.  Otherwise it is future sight to dance around this one attack and then instakill your opponent.  There isn't a drawn out fight between a person with future sight and someone without.   That was the entire reason behind Vins arc... how plot armor and an understanding of the metal can allow you to kill a god.  

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The spikeway is probably the fastest we see a mistborn go, and Kelsier and Vin don't mention anything about the wind, so I doubt they even get to the high tens of miles per hour.

Only if they have inquisitor steelsight.

Wax can see highly invested metalminds even though he can't really push on them.   Shardblades are too invested to push on and move around but they are not invisible like aluminum would be.  

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1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Wax can see highly invested metalminds even though he can't really push on them.   Shardblades are too invested to push on and move around but they are not invisible like aluminum would be.  

Wax can't see the bands of mourning, and shardblades are far more invested.

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Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Wax can't see the bands of mourning, and shardblades are far more invested.

Dang it. This pokes a giant hole in the plot for me.   To think that Wax knew his buddy just grabbed a metal object that he couldn't see with steel sight and didn't investigate that further at all.  

I'm not doubting the way it is written.  It is just making Wax’s detective skill set less impressive. 

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3 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Dang it. This pokes a giant hole in the plot for me.   To think that Wax knew his buddy just grabbed a metal object that he couldn't see with steel sight and didn't investigate that further at all.  

I'm not doubting the way it is written.  It is just making Wax’s detective skill set less impressive. 

I don't think Wax knew, just Marasi.

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Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I don't think Wax knew, just Marasi.

I still have to stand by the idea that if you are a mistborn and someone has a shiny pointy weapon that you can't see and push off of you will likely know that the fight is dangerous.  

Atium doesn't shadow aluminum but wouldnt spren would be seen in the spiritual realm?  

Also even without blue lines on the blade the mistborn is so difficult to drop in on.  Any worn metal will show up as well as bronze and tin... 

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6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Dang it. This pokes a giant hole in the plot for me.   To think that Wax knew his buddy just grabbed a metal object that he couldn't see with steel sight and didn't investigate that further at all.  

I'm not doubting the way it is written.  It is just making Wax’s detective skill set less impressive. 

Wax thought it was aluminum. And he did figure it out later, just before he died if memory serves.

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10 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The spikeway is probably the fastest we see a mistborn go, and Kelsier and Vin don't mention anything about the wind, so I doubt they even get to the high tens of miles per hour.

They are actually comparable. Terminal velocity is approximately 176 ft/s. The carriage ride between cities took an hour and a carriage usually averaged out at 20 mi/hr. The spikeway reduced that time to 10 minutes. 20 miles x 5280 ft = 105600 ft. 105600 ÷ 10 = 10560 ft/min. 10560 ÷ 60 = 176 ft/s

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3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

They are actually comparable. Terminal velocity is approximately 176 ft/s. The carriage ride between cities took an hour and a carriage usually averaged out at 20 mi/hr. The spikeway reduced that time to 10 minutes. 20 miles x 5280 ft = 105600 ft. 105600 ÷ 10 = 10560 ft/min. 10560 ÷ 60 = 176 ft/s

Big brain math here.  Thanks. 

It could be argued that the mistborn actually covers faster given that they are going that fast in distance but not counting the up and down arcs that come from jumping and falling.  

How long does it take to reach terminal velocity though?  12 seconds roughly vs the near instant acceleration from the mistborn.  In a high maneuverability enviorment do you think steel pushes and iron pulls can pull of bigger faster changes while pewter and stormlight can both be used to overcome the inherent dangers of undergoing that many G forces.  

Edited by Tamriel Wolfsbaine
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2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

They are actually comparable. Terminal velocity is approximately 176 ft/s. The carriage ride between cities took an hour and a carriage usually averaged out at 20 mi/hr. The spikeway reduced that time to 10 minutes. 20 miles x 5280 ft = 105600 ft. 105600 ÷ 10 = 10560 ft/min. 10560 ÷ 60 = 176 ft/s

You forget that Scadrian horses at the time would be much weaker than ours are. And not to mention variations in elevation, traffic, or other factors that effect horses but not Mistborn.

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True, a Windrunner would have a higher top speed, but Mistborn can accelerate much more quickly, as shown when Vin blasts off from the top of the city wall to save Breeze

Edited by Primeval Ookla
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Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

You forget that Scadrian horses at the time would be much weaker than ours are. And not to mention variations in elevation, traffic, or other factors that effect horses but not Mistborn.

That is technically pure conjecture. Potentially reasonable yes, but also stands to reason that nobles would take care of their carriage horses and keep them healthy for no other reason than appearances

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11 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

That is technically pure conjecture. Potentially reasonable yes, but also stands to reason that nobles would take care of their carriage horses and keep them healthy for no other reason than appearances

It is also not taking into effect that Roshars gravitational pull is lower and the air density (given that the air is higher O2 % that other planets) would also throw off the calculations.  

Again pure conjecture.  Unless Brandon gives us some constants for each planet these points will always be back and forth.  

All that together if you take a mistborn native to Scadrial and put it on Roshar for the fight then it would be like John Carter of Mars.  The opposite is true if you put a radiant on scadrial.  They would be drug down so much more.  

In terms of whose body is built in favor or strength and speed and height of a jump wouldn't the advantage go to the person native to a higher gravitational pulling planet baseline?  

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1 hour ago, Primeval Ookla said:

True, a Windrunner would have a higher top speed, but Mistborn can accelerate much more quickly, as shown when Vin blasts off from the top of the city wall to save Breeze

Technically that was with Duralumin. However yes, Mistborn for sure have greater acceleration. A Mistborn suffers negative acceleration as they get further from the metal they are pushing on. This means that they have their top acceleration at the time of the initial Push

A Windrunner on the other hand  in earth gravity and atmosphere would take nearly 20 seconds to hit top speed assuming a single Lashing

Edited by StanLemon
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1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

That is technically pure conjecture. Potentially reasonable yes, but also stands to reason that nobles would take care of their carriage horses and keep them healthy for no other reason than appearances

Considering that humans and plants of the time were so much weaker it would be odd if horses weren't.

 

But let's assume that you are correct about horses being the same. Felise is about an hour away from Luthadel, so 20 miles. In ten minutes that's only 120 mph(20*6). Windrunners routinely break 200mph, not counting the fact that Rosharan miles are longer.

Edited by Ookla the Frustrated.
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26 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Considering that humans and plants of the time were so much weaker it would be odd if horses weren't.

 

But let's assume that you are correct about horses being the same. Felise is about an hour away from Luthadel, so 20 miles. In ten minutes that's only 120 mph(20*6). Windrunners routinely break 200mph, not counting the fact that Rosharan miles are longer.

Significantly faster than what terminal velocity would allow you go.  

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Just now, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Significantly faster than what terminal velocity would allow you go.  

Terminal velocity has a lot of factors, like surface area, gravity, atmospheric density etc.

I tried calculating it one time it was a nightmare.

But regardless Windrunners can adjust atmospheric pressure, and tend to create wind tunnels to go faster(OB 322, 602)

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52 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Terminal velocity has a lot of factors, like surface area, gravity, atmospheric density etc.

I tried calculating it one time it was a nightmare.

But regardless Windrunners can adjust atmospheric pressure, and tend to create wind tunnels to go faster(OB 322, 602)

Wind tunnels would help.   Gravity is lower so wouldn't that make terminal velocity lower/ take longer to achieve?  Atmospheric pressure wise we really don't know much more than there is more oxygen.  So the air may be thinner (with less gravity it would likely be thinner as well).  Being a foot taller and likely broader work against themselves as far as surface area is concerned and wind resistance.  

There is a lot less factor for the mistborn.  The factors working against fall speed actually work in favor of the mistborns flight mechanism being more thrust.   You can only fall so fast and it drains significantly more stormlight to stack lashings.  You can do it fast (how many lashings did kaladin stack in the arena when he fell into the shardplate shattering it and both legs?) but it is still just a fall.  

The anchors running towards Luthadel are used differently too.  The mistborns fastest flight speed isn't in a straight line toward point B, it is straight away from your anchor and your proximity to said anchor plays a role.  A mistborn floating high above the anchors would be slower than one staying low and close to them.  Timing of when you push and the angle or your push would also effect it as a mistborn pushing at a more acute angle will go further faster than one choosing launching points closer to 90 degrees.  Balancing that with the gravitational pull of the planet always pulling you down as well.  

It is ironic that neither is actual flight.  They are both just falling with style and working in totally different ways.  One just has the capability to slingshot themselves off of a new anchor when needed.   

When in the air and further away from ground anchors or any buildings with metals then the mistborn is at a huge disadvantage.   I do think any piece of metal being worn on the radiant is going to make hitting the mistborn in air impossible.  In a setting with buildings to anchor with the mistborn will have far more mobility and maneuverability than the radiant.  I think of it more like a goshawk (mistborn) flying through the forest vs a falcon in the open plains.  Both are kings in their landscape specifically and both would find disadvantages in the other space.  

 

Edited by Tamriel Wolfsbaine
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20 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

You forget that Scadrian horses at the time would be much weaker than ours are. And not to mention variations in elevation, traffic, or other factors that effect horses but not Mistborn.

why would there horses be weaker? I'm probably being dumb. Also I don't think that elevation would play a major enough role to be counted as a genuine factor or at least one that can being ignored without much consequence. Also I don't think that if they said it took twenty minutes that it was because of horrible traffic more likely it was because it actually took twenty minutes

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Along with all this, I think that the mistborn powers are more versatile; they can do a lot of things, whereas windrunners are limited to lashings. 

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1 minute ago, Ookla the Ta'veren said:

Along with all this, I think that the mistborn powers are more versatile; they can do a lot of things, whereas windrunners are limited to lashings. 

Yeah, but half of mistborn's powers are useless here.

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Wait, why are they useless? Sorry, I didn't read the entire discussion. 

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a lot can be easily countered by a KR's power or physical ability but you should really read the discussion before making a judgement.

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