Mistborn V.S. 3rd ideal Windrunner

[Frustration]

On efficiency Kelsier downed a metal vial, left for keep venture and was almost out of pewter while he's there. (FE 92).

[That1Cellist]

4 hours ago, Ookla the Ta'veren said:

This could honestly go either way. I can't make a decision until I know both characters, their backstories, their motives, their training, etc. There's too many variables here for this situation to make sense. If the windrunner is protecting someone, then all the mistborn has to do is kill the person. But the windrunner will also fight harder to protect someone. Then there's also the questions of their knowledge. How well do they understand each other's powers? If we're assuming the mistborn can use all 16 metals, what are we assuming about strength? Vin is stronger than Kelsier, but he's trained more. So does the mistborn rely more on brute force or on their own skill? We also need to know about their cleverness; how well do they adapt? 

For me, I think the most important question is why they're fighting. They won't fight hard just to test their skill. They need to be fighting for something. The same way motivational speakers always talk about attitude being important, their motives are the thing that will determine the outcome. Have they fought each other before, like Kaladin and the pursuer? Do they know why the other one is fighting, have they tried to negotiate, do they really care about the outcome. I would accept either answer so long as they have reasons to fight. People do unpredictable things when in the grip of their emotions. 

Assume that both individuals are fighting at maximum capacity, with knowledge of how the other individual's powers work. The natural strength of the Mistborn really shouldn't matter too much, but for simplicity we could just assume the Mistborn is one of average strength from era 1, similar to Kelsier. Being invested naturally comes with some sort of instinct on how it is used, I think, though there is a fair amount of training. We can guess about how skilled the windrunner would be by examining some of Kaladin's Windrunners of around the third ideal. We shouldn't use Kaladin himself as a reference because he's kind of abnormal when it comes to physical ability, though he is a prime example of how Stormlight enhances a Radiant physically. We should also probably assume that the Mistborn and Windrunner are both of average skill, because it that just makes it a lot easier. I agree that why the people are fighting is important, so I think we'll just have to assume that they are both fighting in a scenario that would cause them both to pull out all the stops.

[StanLemon]

7 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

On efficiency Kelsier downed a metal vial, left for keep venture and was almost out of pewter while he's there. (FE 92).

This is an outlier compared to what is seen in the rest of the trilogy. He likely used little metal in his vials to try and avoid the Pushes and Pulls of other Allomancers. It's probably a habit of his considering he only measured 10 minutes worth of Pewter the first time he trained Vin. Vin however in the other two books is shown have hours worth of Pewter most of the time. Additionally, in TFE 5 small beads of Pewter were enough to last Vin an hour despite the fact she wasn't just burning them but was flairing them which vastly increases the speed the metals burn. 

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

This is an outlier compared to what is seen in the rest of the trilogy. He likely used little metal in his vials to try and avoid the Pushes and Pulls of other Allomancers. It's probably a habit of his considering he only measured 10 minutes worth of Pewter the first time he trained Vin. Vin however in the other two books is shown have hours worth of Pewter most of the time. Additionally, in TFE 5 small beads of Pewter were enough to last Vin an hour despite the fact she wasn't just burning them but was flairing them which vastly increases the speed the metals burn. 

She also comments on how much that is, so they don't carry that much around normally.

[StanLemon]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

She also comments on how much that is, so they don't carry that much around normally.

No but considering how long 5 beads can last, and by WoA she is considered to be burning Pewter all the time. She is either carrying a decent amount on her person at all times, unlikely as she usually only has a couple vials at any given time, or that she doesn't skimp on Pewter like Kelsier seems to

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

No but considering how long 5 beads can last, and by WoA she is considered to be burning Pewter all the time. She is either carrying a decent amount on her person at all times, unlikely as she usually only has a couple vials at any given time, or that she doesn't skimp on Pewter like Kelsier seems to

Or she resupplies frequently. 

[StanLemon]

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Or she resupplies frequently. 

Regardless if she resupplies or not, there are scenes of her burning Pewter without needing to drink another vial for what is clearly longer than 10 minutes. Like I said, Kelsier's scene is an outlier. 

[Immortal Platypus]

so I think we need to state exactly how much metal the Mistborn has. 10 ounces? 15? @Wits instant noodles can you clarify that?

[StanLemon]

A single Mistborn vial was enough to have Vin's Pewter last long enough for her to kill hundreds of Koloss while periodically flaring it and long enough for Sazed and a number of soldiers to make it from the Steel Gate to Keep Hasting which is half way across Luthadel

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

9 hours ago, StanLemon said:

A single Mistborn vial was enough to have Vin's Pewter last long enough for her to kill hundreds of Koloss while periodically flaring it and long enough for Sazed and a number of soldiers to make it from the Steel Gate to Keep Hasting which is half way across Luthadel

I feel like this is the versatility of the mistborn.  To limit a mistborn in their metals to the same runtime as a windrunner is a bit of a stretch in the argument of what they can carry.  Gems aren't huge but certainly a sack of gems is larger than the equivalent run time of metals.  If you swallowed a perfect spheres volume of pewter no doubt the pewter would unlock far more time of that metals use than the stormlight held by said sphere.  

A solid takes up considerably less space for the same mass than a gas and that is the exact point to make here.  Pewter being the fastest burning of the metals still would be far more dense in potential investiture unlocked than a sphere with a perfect gemstone and crammed full of stormlight.  

Vials are just convenient ways to transport metal and drink it down without risking heavy metal poisoning if you don't use all of it.  And for mistborn there is the added option of using aluminum to protect yourself from a massive chunk of unused metal as well.  

[Immortal Platypus]

I'm not saying to give them the same amount of time, I'm saying we need amounts of each metal before we can even begin to properly completely discuss the battle.

[StanLemon]

12 minutes ago, Ookla the platypus said:

I'm not saying to give them the same amount of time, I'm saying we need amounts of each metal before we can even begin to properly completely discuss the battle.

That's near impossible to determine. It seems to be at least partially determined by how much the Allomancer wants to carry. Kelsier, for some reason, only kept small amounts in a vial. Most likely to try and avoid other Allomancers from Pushing them. Vin on the other hand, had enough in one vial to last her quite a while. It would just be easiest to assume that all of a Mistborn's storage across all vials is several hours worth of metal.

[Immortal Platypus]

Well, then there's stuff like atium and duralumin which are weird for that.

[therunner]

On 03/12/2022 at 5:15 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I feel like this is the versatility of the mistborn.  To limit a mistborn in their metals to the same runtime as a windrunner is a bit of a stretch in the argument of what they can carry.  Gems aren't huge but certainly a sack of gems is larger than the equivalent run time of metals.  If you swallowed a perfect spheres volume of pewter no doubt the pewter would unlock far more time of that metals use than the stormlight held by said sphere.  

A solid takes up considerably less space for the same mass than a gas and that is the exact point to make here.  Pewter being the fastest burning of the metals still would be far more dense in potential investiture unlocked than a sphere with a perfect gemstone and crammed full of stormlight.  

Vials are just convenient ways to transport metal and drink it down without risking heavy metal poisoning if you don't use all of it.  And for mistborn there is the added option of using aluminum to protect yourself from a massive chunk of unused metal as well.  

I think that the amount of Stormlight for Windrunner is not an issue, on 3rd Oath Kaladin flew non-stop for over 12 hours and traversed over thousand Rosharan miles while only using spheres he could carry. So just spheres on a person are enough for multiple hours or relatively intense usage.

Even if the consumption goes up 12 fold, it is still hour of fighting, where Windrunner can defend against the offensive options of Mistborn (Reverse Lashings), can maneuver better, move faster (and accelerate arbitrarily fast thanks to multiple lashings), can heal and has Shardblade.

The only way Mistborn can win is Atium.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

15 hours ago, Ookla the platypus said:

Well, then there's stuff like atium and duralumin which are weird for that.

Duralumin only effects what metal is currently being burnt.  It is not in any way tied to what is in your stomach.  A stomach with a lb of solid pewter that is not being used will be unaffected by burning a whole lb of duralumin.  

Atium like every other metal is toggleable.  So your atium stores are safe from duralumin as well.  

11 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think that the amount of Stormlight for Windrunner is not an issue, on 3rd Oath Kaladin flew non-stop for over 12 hours and traversed over thousand Rosharan miles while only using spheres he could carry. So just spheres on a person are enough for multiple hours or relatively intense usage.

Even if the consumption goes up 12 fold, it is still hour of fighting, where Windrunner can defend against the offensive options of Mistborn (Reverse Lashings), can maneuver better, move faster (and accelerate arbitrarily fast thanks to multiple lashings), can heal and has Shardblade.

The only way Mistborn can win is Atium.

Let's suppose that stormlight in a non progression surge radiant is more akin to gold feruchemy alone as opposed to gold compounding.  

Miles was able to heal through some insane stuff but that was far beyond what stormlight alone can do.  

Vin exploded a man's head with a headbutt powered by duralumin pewter.  

Exploded head syndrome is not survivable without the compounding and / or progression.  Stormlight healing is great.  But dead is dead and stormlight healing can only heal what isn't yet quite dead.  

A headbutt is less force spread over a greater surface area than a hit from a weapon or even a fist.   I imagine a duralumin pewter fueled pop in the mouth would in fact hold enough force to negate passive stormlight healing.  

Miles shot through the eye it describes him as healing as the bullet was working its way through his body.  Progression levels of healing yes.  Passive stormlight?  I think not.  

[Immortal Platypus]

1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Duralumin only effects what metal is currently being burnt.  It is not in any way tied to what is in your stomach.  A stomach with a lb of solid pewter that is not being used will be unaffected by burning a whole lb of duralumin.  

Atium like every other metal is toggleable.  So your atium stores are safe from duralumin as well

Yeah, I was saying that Atium and duralumin burn faster than everything else.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

18 minutes ago, Ookla the platypus said:

Yeah, I was saying that Atium and duralumin burn faster than everything else.

Yeah.  Duralumin creates this never ending chain reaction with whatever else is being burnt when you burn it.  It is always counted as instant to our perceived time.  I imagine there is a limit to how much this reaction can take place but am totally willing to accept any WoB against this theory.  If you had a 1mg shaving of duralumin I imagine that reaction would end faster than a a few hundred grams of another metal. Would be burned away by the duralumin.  I have no idea what the breakpoints would be if there are any... I believe that is probably all rafo.  

Atium burns way fast. No getting around that except stack more atium.  Which is financially difficult. 

[Immortal Platypus]

yeah, I was saying that we need amounts of each metal for the mistborn before we can really dig the deepest into who would win. There are just a lot of "if/then"s and variables for this fight.

[therunner]

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Let's suppose that stormlight in a non progression surge radiant is more akin to gold feruchemy alone as opposed to gold compounding.  

Miles was able to heal through some insane stuff but that was far beyond what stormlight alone can do.  

Vin exploded a man's head with a headbutt powered by duralumin pewter.  

Exploded head syndrome is not survivable without the compounding and / or progression.  Stormlight healing is great.  But dead is dead and stormlight healing can only heal what isn't yet quite dead.  

A headbutt is less force spread over a greater surface area than a hit from a weapon or even a fist.   I imagine a duralumin pewter fueled pop in the mouth would in fact hold enough force to negate passive stormlight healing.  

Miles shot through the eye it describes him as healing as the bullet was working its way through his body.  Progression levels of healing yes.  Passive stormlight?  I think not.  

Well, we have WoBs that Stormlight healing can heal almost anything (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e4788), that F-Gold (and only difference between F-gold and compounded gold is the amount stored/tapped) and Stormlight are pretty much the same in what they can achieve (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6336), for extreme healing the spiritweb takes over (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3535), and for Radiants their spiritweb is strongly Invested thanks to the Nahel Bond (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e4788) and based on this WoB the Stormlight healing is more "spirit"-based then F-Gold anyway (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5655).
Not to mention Shallan survives and heals crossbow bolt through head, and it heals immediately after she removes it, so if it passed through, the wound would heal in its wake. Same principle with bullet.
So yeah Stormlight alone is on part with Gold Compounding, and the only major limit is how much Stormlight does the Windrunner have available.

Also, how is the Mistborn supposed to get close enough to duralumin pewter headbutt/punch Radiant, while Radiant has shapeshifting 10 foot long spear/7 foot long broadsword/whatever melee weapon that they know how to use? Pewter does make them a bit faster, but Stormlight also helps with that, and avoiding large blade is difficult because the ends move very fast. If they have Atium sure, but without it?

[StanLemon]

Leaching prevents the summoning of a Shardblade, it would presumably prevent the shape changing of a Shardblade too. If a Mistborn gets a Pewter enhanced grip around the Radiant's sword arm. Close combat no longer becomes an issue 

[therunner]

52 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Leaching prevents the summoning of a Shardblade, it would presumably prevent the shape changing of a Shardblade too. If a Mistborn gets a Pewter enhanced grip around the Radiant's sword arm. Close combat no longer becomes an issue 

That assumes Windrunner is waiting for summing the blade until Mistborn is within arms reach, which is not particularly smart.
Summing is nearly instantaneous (i.e. sub one heartbeat, so ~0.7 seconds at most), so they would have to wait till literally last second to get caught like that.

Edited December 4, 2022 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Well, we have WoBs that Stormlight healing can heal almost anything (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e4788), that F-Gold (and only difference between F-gold and compounded gold is the amount stored/tapped) and Stormlight are pretty much the same in what they can achieve (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6336), for extreme healing the spiritweb takes over (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3535), and for Radiants their spiritweb is strongly Invested thanks to the Nahel Bond (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e4788) and based on this WoB the Stormlight healing is more "spirit"-based then F-Gold anyway (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5655).
Not to mention Shallan survives and heals crossbow bolt through head, and it heals immediately after she removes it, so if it passed through, the wound would heal in its wake. Same principle with bullet.
So yeah Stormlight alone is on part with Gold Compounding, and the only major limit is how much Stormlight does the Windrunner have available.

Also, how is the Mistborn supposed to get close enough to duralumin pewter headbutt/punch Radiant, while Radiant has shapeshifting 10 foot long spear/7 foot long broadsword/whatever melee weapon that they know how to use? Pewter does make them a bit faster, but Stormlight also helps with that, and avoiding large blade is difficult because the ends move very fast. If they have Atium sure, but without it?

 

30 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Leaching prevents the summoning of a Shardblade, it would presumably prevent the shape changing of a Shardblade too. If a Mistborn gets a Pewter enhanced grip around the Radiant's sword arm. Close combat no longer becomes an issue 

 

10 minutes ago, therunner said:

That assumes Windrunner is waiting for summing the blade until Mistborn is within arms reach, which is not particularly smart.
Summing is nearly instantaneous (i.e. sub one heartbeat, so ~0.7 seconds at most), so they would have to wait till literally last second to get caught like that.

There is a lot to unload here.  There is still plenty of brain activity when one gets shot through the head for healing to take place.  In Vins instance there is no brain activity whatsoever ever once the head is mutilated beyond repair.  We have kept people breathing and working with GSW to the head for a long time.  GSWs to the head have come back and lived a full life after being shot through the face and out through the back of the skull.  Noone has ever come back from having their head totally obliterated.   

Shallan survived what is survivable.  TLR survived being beheaded... gold compounding and your average radiant healing are not the same thing.  Vins headbutt needs more healing than we have ever seen in the cosmere.  Even a beheading if you can repair the cut as it happens.  But this is far beyond even that in terms of raw tissue damage.  Bones shattering brain turned to jelly and all the soft tissue damage that goes along with it.  It is apples to oranges... even the arrow through the eye slit is not comparable given the mechanism of injury and the actual structures in need of immediate repair.  

Atium gets you plenty close to do what you want.  If the radiant closes the gap and the mistborn has access to both atium and duralumin it should be within reason that a potential 1 shot happens.  If the mistborn closes the gap with nicrosil or with chromium then the radiant loses the ability to shift shape their spren (I believe kaladin had to drop Syl each time he wanted to change to a different weapon) and more importantly to the fight they lose their stormlight reserves and thus their healing.  

 

[Wits instant noodles]

On 12/2/2022 at 9:35 PM, Ookla the platypus said:

so I think we need to state exactly how much metal the Mistborn has. 10 ounces? 15? @Wits instant noodles can you clarify that?

As much as they would normaly be able to carry, same goes to the Windrunner they get as many spheres as they would normally carry I dont specifically know how much that is for a mistborn but Vin is able to go for hours as previously stated

Edited December 5, 2022 by Wits instant noodles

[Werewolff Studios]

Loving this discussion! Really interesting how many intersections and interactions of the powers there is to consider. 

@Tamriel Wolfsbaine Referring to your counterpoints. Really great response too, thank you!

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Perhaps there is some source I am missing proving this but I believe that if a spren weapon is too invested to push or pull on it would be too invested to imbue with stormlight. 

There isn't an exact source of a Windrunner spraying Stormlight onto a Sprenshield that I'm aware of. However, my reasoning was based on what we've seen Shallan do, when she imbues her Illusions onto Pattern. The Coppermind states this as follows "It's possible for the Surgebinder to attach the illusion to themselves, as well as a being they are Spiritually linked to such as the spren that forms the Nahel bond."

Now, this effect may not carry across Orders, but that was where my reasoning came from.

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When Marasi uses the cube in BoM the entire party gets slapped by this horrible disorientation and nausea spell.  The world going from normal to suddenly very not normal as you pass through that space is a far better advantage than I think is let on.  The way they described it in the book was like the characters were put through some vasovagal symptoms.  The whole world suddenly spinning as your mouth begins to water and you have to fight from throwing up. 

I re-read this scene in question (it's in Chapter 17) and found no mention of the horrible nausea you described. The disorientation that occurs is due to Marasi creating a small bubble with a 'pinch' of cadmium. This causes the stagecoach to lurch because it isn't massive enough for the speed bubble to follow Marasi, causing the occupants to knock about. This certainly causes disorientation, but no crippling nausea.

It's also a very specific instance of speed bubble shenanigan's on moving objects. Stationary bubbles don't seem to have this effect, otherwise it would be mentioned whenever Wax and/or Wayne leap out of their speed bubbles during combat. 

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This is a large advantage if weaponized and since the very first time I read about this "side effect" of using the metal I have pictured pulsers standing at the front of armies and putting up this dome of death where their enemies would be running in formation only to hit a wall of horrible disorientation and nausea followed by their allies suddenly crashing into their backs only to experience the same exact thing. 

The problem with this is that the Pulsers aren't releasing a 'dome of death'- they are creating a slowness room with them inside. Yes, they could take out a chunk of an army by slowing them down, but they're also trapping themselves. If the army they've caught then kills them, the bubble drops anyway. 

This is the main reason why I didn't account for speed bubbles in my original analysis. If the Mistborn creates a bubble with the Windrunner already within the radius, all they're doing is restricting the arena size. If they create one and the Windrunner falls into it, they might possibly be disorientated, but not to an horrific effect. Even if nausea was a side effect (which I don't believe it is) Stormlight healing cures nausea, as we've seen with drunkenness and poison. 

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Mistborn are used to being the top dog on their planet.  Until the see what a sprenblade can do they may not treat it as the threat that it is.  Then again pewter doesn't fix getting stabbed by glass or steel either so they shouldn't be all that reckless.  Plus, as soon as they realize they can't push on that shiny sword I think their brains will be working and treating it differently than other fights.  

Absolutely. Both combatants would certainly adjust their combat strategies as the fight wore on, and attrition is in the Mistborn's favour. The main point I was referring to is that a Mistborn likely has great confidence in their abilities than a Radiant has, making them more prone to a reckless opening move. 

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Radiant is larger than the mistborn then the mistborn gets a free anchor.  If the radiant is smaller than the mistborn then the radiant is going to get tossed and pulled around like a ragdoll.  

Radiant wants to fly 200 mph towards me... then I can fly 200 mph away from him as he pushes me.  Once I make contact with something bigger than the 2 of us it doesn't matter how many lashings their are that radiant is going to go zipping off in the other direction.  Likewise if they want to flee I can iron pull behind them the same speed they are flying like holding onto the end of a rope.  

This is a good point, though I don't believe 'like a ragdoll' is a correct descriptor. A Windrunner can double up lashings as many times as they wish, which would likely overpower the difference in mass. The pulling to catch up to them is a valid point though, but again that brings the Mistborn close, where I believe the Radiant has the advantage. 

Also, it's not unreasonable to think that the Windrunner would feel the pressing of their buttons into their skin and remove the metal they're wearing, which would negate the ability to Push and Pull. 

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I don't know that this is entirely accurate.  From my understanding stormlight doesn't increase strength so much as allow you to access your full potential of strength (healing muscle fibers as they tear and letting you push past those limits of where you would normally stop).  

Not saying that isn't an advantage but pewter is literal magic speed, strength, balance and toughness (denser tissues and bones as well). 

Agreed, Pewter does provide a greater strength increase than Stormlight. I will say the Coppermind states that Stormlight grants 'superhuman strength'', so I do believe it's greater than your 'full potential'. Otherwise, most male Radiants would be inherently stronger than female ones which, based on what we've seen Jasnah, Lyn and others do, doesn't seem like it's the case. 

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My final thoughts are that mistborn does win the war of attrition as well as the down and dirty quick close quarters action as long as atium is on.  Stormlight doesn't heal insta kills either.  Sure Shallan gets to heal an arrow through the eyeslot but that is not saying that arrow was instant death (given the length of time we have kept GSW to the head alive).  Everyone short of gold compounders, edgedancer and truthwatchers are susceptible to a severed C1-5... magic sword or not.  

Stormlight doesn't heal Insta-kills, but it heals better overall. A Radiant can survive getting shot through the eye. I don't believe a Mistborn could (excluding maybe duralumin pewter, but that would use up a chunk of that limited resource). 

This is the final point in my original conclusion. Which of the two is more likely to deliver an Instant Kill move first? The Mistborn's instant kill relies on Atium, Pewter and Duralumin (and likely Chromium Leeching if they want to be 100%). The Radiant's instant kill relies on one weapon attack connecting that a Mistborn can't block. Which is more likely to happen first? 

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@StanLemonLeaching prevents the summoning of a Shardblade, it would presumably prevent the shape changing of a Shardblade too. If a Mistborn gets a Pewter enhanced grip around the Radiant's sword arm. Close combat no longer becomes an issue 

This is a really good point. As @therunner mentioned, I feel it's unlikely there would be a situation of a Mistborn leeching a Radiant that hasn't summoned their Sprenblade already, but preventing it from changing forms would be a viable tactic. Close combat not being an issue though; I don't agree with. 

The Windrunner could Lash the Mistborn away from them (stacking Lashings if need be), or toward the ground, making the grip easy to break. The Windrunner can also attack the Mistborn too, either by Lashing enhanced kicks (which we've seen are effective against Shardbearers, who I believe to be stronger than Mistborn) or perhaps by maneuvering their existing Sprenblade into severing a limb (this depends on the exact hold, angle and weapon of course).

Plus, the Mistborn has to get into contact range with the Radiant; easier said than done with the Sprenblade in question. If the Radiant is able to slice through one of their arms, killing the limb, that also lessens the chance of the Mistborn leeching their Stormlight or Blade.

Again, it really comes down to Atium, which is what would allow the Mistborn to do all of these things easier. But due to it's rarity, it's unlikely they'd be carrying much, and as mentioned it's burn rate is very fast; faster than Stormlight for certain. It's a limited resource which I feel they're unlikely to utilize in the initial rounds of combat.  

The Radiant's win' resource is unlimited - their Spren doesn't depend on Stormlight to be summoned as a Blade, and the Radiant is more likely to strike with it initially. 

For me, this is a close one, but it comes down to the likelihood of each combatants win conditions. Still, feel free to critique any of these points - this is a really neat discussion! 

 

[StanLemon]

Can't Lash if their Stormlight has been Leached